CAP 30 - Part 8 - Defining Moves

[Wulfanator]

Given the boosted power of its STABs, does 30i need any coverage? If so, how does the coverage interact with Tinted Lens?
30i should be able to manage without coverage. Do not misinterpret that as saying we should disallow coverage. It should just be less important for 30i to make progress.

If knock off is being considered, we just need to be mindful of how that can impact the MU against its counters. As long as its inclusion does not alter their ability to be an obstacle, it should be fine.

I do think that fire coverage for physical 30i , ground coverage for special 30i, and electric coverage for both offensive biases should not be considered for defining moves The community should expect 30i to be strong and FEEL somewhat unfair to play against at times. Ensuring solid counterplay will make sure that difficult to play against does not mean unbalanced. Any other coverage should be fine.

Given the ground-types we are able to switch-in on, ice or water coverage could be nice in the optional section.

What kind of coverage would 30b prefer? Are there any moves that have particular interactions with Stamina?
30b would like some way to mitigate the number of steels that counter it. Body Press is an easy solution, especially since it positively interacts with Stamina. Fighting coverage in general might be a smart choice since, at a glance, it doesn't seem to drastically impact 30i's matchups if it also has access to this coverage.

Similar to the comments I made regarding 30i, ice coverage would complement our desire to switch-in on ground types. The positive overlap of ice coverage between forms makes it a strong contender if we want to guarantee coverage.

 

[dex]

I want to advocate for Knock Off, but with a caveat. On a physically oriented CAP30i, Knock Off is a great option for making progress against checks like Toxapex and Zapdos. However, I think it becomes a bit too overbearing if CAP30i is specially oriented, specifically for it's interaction with Galarian Slowking. Non-STAB Knock Off doesn't actually do that much damage, even with a good attack stat, and I like it for it's ability to help make a physical CAP30i all that tougher to switch in on and punish given that it is going to be difficult to find switch-in opportunities for it. Knock Off is also a nice addition for the base form, as being able to chip stuff like Equilibra and Heatran is a welcome utility addition.

Coverage-wise, I also think that Ground-coverage should be disallowed if CAP30i is specially oriented. If it's physical, I think Earth Power should be on the table as a means for the base form to hit Heatran meaningfully, since Body Press really is not that strong of a move, even at +1.

I'm also against Ice-Coverage in general for its possibility to bonk the Zapdos matchup. This CAP is already going to excel against most Ground-types, I don't think Ice coverage is necessary.

 

[Amamama]

I do think that fire coverage for physical 30i , ground coverage for special 30i, and electric coverage for both offensive biases should disallowed.

I don’t think that most of these options would be problematic.
Physical fire coverage with 120 BP is the one, that looks the most threatening, as it actually is powerful enough to outdamage Brave Bird on super effective hits and doesn’t have too many drawbacks. Enabling 30i to break past Skarmory is definitely something we should be wary of, BUT considering that clicking anything other but Brave Bird against anything that you don’t hit SE, is almost as much of a power drop, as only doing resisted damage with brave bird (120 vs.108BP), I think giving it one tool where it needs to predict right to break a check is fine.
Ground Coverage literally only changes two Matchups vs. Heatran and Magnezone.
I don’t think, that it’s actually worth running coverage for them, as neither carry recovery and are worn down fairly easy with neutral STAB moves and hazards and neither is a main target.
Electric coverage I don’t see worth banning at all, as only Thunder has the ability to outdamage Hurricane (and I guess Volt tackle would be stronger than brave bird) and thunder just is such a undesirable move to click, with its low accuracy and the potential to be stonewalled by immunities, as well as only a minor power increase over hurricane, that I don’t see 30i ever clicking thunder.

I'm also against Ice-Coverage in general for it's possibility to bonk the Zapdos matchup. This CAP is already going to excel against most Ground-types, I don't think Ice coverage is necessary.

Zapdos already is a shaky switch in, definitely to 30i and also doesn’t like to take poison moves from 30b. Most of Zapdos bulk comes from its excellent defensive typing and it will always struggle against neutral hits. If we want to preserve Zapdos as an offensive check, that will have to happen in stats anyway.
CAP 30 (especially 30i) is in a unique position to punish ground types and ice coverage is the most consistent option to do that offensively.

 

[Amamama]

I'm also against Ice-Coverage in general for it's possibility to bonk the Zapdos matchup. This CAP is already going to excel against most Ground-types, I don't think Ice coverage is necessary.

Zapdos already is a shaky switch in, definitely to 30i and also doesn’t like to take poison moves from 30b. Most of Zapdos bulk comes from its excellent defensive typing and it will always struggle against neutral hits. If we want to preserve Zapdos as an offensive check, that will have to happen in stats anyway.
CAP 30 (especially 30i) is in a unique position to punish ground types and ice coverage is the most consistent option to do that offensively.

 

[spoo]

I'm also against Ice-Coverage in general for it's possibility to bonk the Zapdos matchup. This CAP is already going to excel against most Ground-types, I don't think Ice coverage is necessary.

I don't believe we will excel against Ground-types unless we can actually hit them; 30b's current options are likely sludge bomb (resisted), hurricane (bad move + lando probably eats), BB (recoil + lando eats), body press (lol), and potentially Fire-type coverage (bulky grounds don't care). We are positioned to have an excellent Ground-type matchup on paper due to Stamina and our typing, but we have no tools currently to follow through on this.

I also feel that Zapdos isn't relevant enough by itself to deny coverage here; it's only one mon, and like Amamama said, 30i will likely outdamage with Flying-type STAB anyways, and at the very least it doesn't particularly enjoy poisons from 30b either. Moreover, non-STAB Ice Beam is just a pretty weak move and Zapdos could very well end up beating 30b regardless if we don't pump our SpA stat.

 

[quziel]

Coverage:

30I doesn't really need coverage in general. Top Tier flying stab moves, thanks to the signature item, are going to hit as hard as most SE coverage options barring literally 4x hits. The only coverage that's really relevant for 30i is basically mixed options (aka hitting skarm/bliss from the other side) if those are relevant, or specifically 4x hits (ig ice beam for lando, but we beat it anyways).

30B wants coverage because there are a few holes in its coverage when looking at the mon as a defensive flying type. You really would love to have heat wave as a defining move for spreads taht want to target cawmodore (a mon defensive flying types often are asked to answer). Ice beam is another defining move I think should exist purely because it lets us target the ground type matchup with 30b.

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Support:

30i will face the problem of filling moveslots moreso than anythign else. Strong utility moves such as Rapid Spin (adds a sweeping dimension to our utiltiy breaker), thunderwave (25% chance to break skarm), Taunt (very strong, but its a defining move for a reason). These are all moves that will require cuts in BSR and stats in general, but still have relevancy to the concept and role, and as such are good defining moves.

I also think its worth considering Swords Dance, Bulk up, and Nasty Plot as defining moves (not CM because CM stamina dumb). 30i will have the slots to run them, they allow for us to cut initial power in exchange for more power when we stay in longer (a natural strength of poison typing), and importantly, they let physical variants work around intimidate, which is something we absolutely need to consider given that we identified lando-t as a mon we want to match up well into, and without some sort of attack boosting we may well end up being dropped to -1 attack and then hard walled by every water type in existence.

30B probably would make excellent use of Defog (not so much rapid spin), Thunder Wave again, Toxic again. I am unsure if it really has a place running hazards given how we fit on a team, but ig 30b rocker + colossoil spinnner has validity?

 

[Reviloja753]

Coverage
As others have said, the only coverage 30i would really want, much less need, is Ice-type coverage for Landorus-Therian and Garchomp, as it allows 30i to overall be a better answer to the two of them. Most other coverage options simply are weaker or just as strong when super-effective compared to a STAB, item-boosted, Tinted Lens Flying-type attack. 30b, on the other hand, is more appreciative of coverage as lacking Tinted Lens with Poison/Flying makes it difficult for it to act as a tank with its mediocre STAB combination. Firstly, Ice-type coverage is also appreciated by 30b, especially against SD Garchomp. Considering Scale Shot is run by it, switching in on a Scale Shot gives 30b +2 Defense at minimum, and so Ice-type coverage would allow 30b to truly destroy Garchomp, as well as overall smoothing over its matchup against Ground-types in general. Fire-type coverage would also be appreciated by 30b, as it's reliable coverage against the multitude of Steel-types that hard wall Poison and Flying STAB. Last but not least, Body Press must be mentioned for 30b, as Stamina + Body Press is an obvious winning combination, although the extent to which it is depends on our stats. Additionally, Body Press does let us hit Pokemon like Blissey physically if 30b is a special attacker, which is a nice bonus.

Utility
With regards 30i, I feel that hazard removal is a very good choice for 30i utility. Poison/Flying is a type combination that defensively thrives against notable rockers like Landorus-Therian, and forcing out said rockers gives us a free turn to remove any hazards set as we come in. I'm going to say I personally prefer Rapid Spin over Defog, purely due to how hazards absolutely are helpful to a wallbreaker like 30i to deal with some of the tougher Pokemon in the metagame, and Defog removing the opponent's hazards kind of works against us wanting 30i to be a wallbreaker. The speed boost of Rapid Spin is obviously something to keep in mind for stats, but that's why it works best as a defining move here and now; we can easily make the stats in such a way that the speed boost does not make 30i an unstoppable monster. Status has been brought up in the thread, but while I feel it's neat, I don't have a strong opinion about it either way, so eh. Ditto for Knock Off.

As for 30b, I do think Toxic is useful for 30b moreso than for 30i, as 30i already has an ability that encourages it to basically spam attacking moves and break that way, while 30b's ability is defensive in nature. As such, Toxic lets 30b wear down foes, regardless of what it’s doing in any given turn.

Not sure what else to say to end this so yeah lol

 

[kjnjkmjk1]

To begin, I want to establish that I am not banning things at this point. This stage is primarily about creating the required and optional moves lists, and I would like to maintain the focus on that. I can leave things off the list if the consensus is that it is not worth having around at the moment, and you can argue for that; I just don't want to completely remove things from the table.

This is what I have so far (new additions in bold):

Required: At least one of (Gunk Shot / Poison Jab / Sludge Bomb), at least one of (Brave Bird / Drill Peck / Hurricane / Air Slash), only one of (Roost / non-Roost unconditional 50% recovery), Body Press
Optional: Taunt, Knock Off, Rapid Spin

For utility:

• Taunt has been repeatedly named as something that is useful to both forms: 30i to pressure bulky checks by preventing their recovery, and 30b to force opponents to attack and activate Stamina. It's going to go in Optional, as it is not completely vital to the functioning of either form, but stat submitters may choose to account for its power in their spreads.
• Knock Off is well known as a strong utility move, and has received support for both how it can help both forms weaken their checks. There has been some ambivalence regarding its necessity, but I have decided to put it in the list as Optional for now so that stat spreads can account for it if they wish.
• People have pointed to hazard removal as another form of utility that both forms of CAP30 can take advantage of.
  • Defog is the most common suggestion, but I am not putting it on the defining moves list, because it does not impact the CAP's interactions with its checks and counters. Note that this is NOT me banning or discouraging Defog; it just does not make enough of an impact in stats for it to be listed now.
  • I'm currently considering putting Rapid Spin in Optional due to the extra speed boost potentially allowing CAP30 to outspeed and deal with faster threats. Again, this is NOT me saying Rapid Spin is better than Defog; this is purely because Rapid Spin affects matchups to a significant degree and Defog doesn't.
• Status infliction is another popular topic, although people haven't fully coalesced around a particular status move. If there are any particular status moves that people like, please say so. I've seen Thunder Wave, Toxic, and even Will-O-Wisp be mentioned, and Thunder Wave has gotten the most mentions so far.
• Everything else did not receive much support.

For coverage:

• Body Press has been a unanimous choice, given its natural synergy with Stamina and how it can help 30b deal with Steel types. It is going in Required due to the synergy being pro-concept, although I am open to arguments for moving it to Optional.
• I would like more discussion on various types of coverage.
  • Fire coverage and Ice coverage have both been fairly popular as suggestions to add; the former allows CAP30 to potentially deal with Steel types, while the latter allows both forms to further take advantage of the Ground types it can already switch in on. I'm currently looking at adding both to Optional, although I'd like some more information first.
• I am less intrigued by Power Trip and Stored Power. Stamina by itself does not accumulate boosts fast enough for these moves to be worth a slot, meaning they are very dependent on setup moves, which is not the primary focus of either CAP at the moment. I may reevaluate this based on what happens with setup moves, but for now I am not going to putting them on the lists.

I'll be extending the discussion period for another 24 hours, both due to how discussion has picked up and in order to get more information about coverage and status-inflicting moves. You are free to make any comments about what I've added to the list so far and how I've added it, as well as other options that have been previously mentioned in the thread. Here's some more specific questions about various topics that have come up

What implications does Rapid Spin's speed boost have for either form? How does it compare to Defog?

Thunder Wave has drawn attention for its ability to prevent bulky checks from reliably acting against CAP30. Does it have any other uses against the Pokemon on our threats list? What other status-inflicting moves have uses with CAP30?

Are there any other important status moves that have been omitted?

Given Body Press's presence on the list, what else does Fire coverage bring to CAP30? Is there a preference for putting physical or special options, based purely on our threats list, or is just listing the common ones (something like Flare Blitz / Blaze Kick / Fire Blast / Flamethrower or Heat Wave) sufficient?

Ice Beam has been given as a specific example of an Ice-type coverage move, due to targeting the weaker special defense of the Ground types CAP30 can switch in on. What about in the physical Ice-type moves (Triple Axel / Ice Punch / etc.), or other special moves like Blizzard?

Are there any other coverage types besides Fire and Ice that might prove useful to CAP30 in either form?

 

[Zetalz]

Given Body Press's presence on the list, what else does Fire coverage bring to CAP30? Is there a preference for putting physical or special options, based purely on our threats list, or is just listing the common ones (something like Flare Blitz / Blaze Kick / Fire Blast / Flamethrower or Heat Wave) sufficient?

As I stated previously Fire coverage lets 30b deal with a wider range of Steels that give it a hard time whilst still maintaining core checks & counters like Pex & Slows. I don't think a preference is terribly necessary unless both forms end up having the same offensive bias, at which point it might be preferable to disallow the highest power options (Flare Blitz, Fire Blast/Overheat) specifically for 30i as that is when they begin to outdamage it's Flying STAB, if only a little. But again it seems very unlikely at this point that this turns out to be the case.

Ice Beam has been given as a specific example of an Ice-type coverage move, due to targeting the weaker special defense of the Ground types CAP30 can switch in on. What about in the physical Ice-type moves (Triple Axel / Ice Punch / etc.), or other special moves like Blizzard?

There really isn't much to talk about with other Ice coverage options. The physical editions are notably weaker due to the presence of Intim (and helmet in Axel's case) and Blizzard is truly not worth using, even with things like Hail becoming more and more common. Ice Beam alone provides the most consistent answer to the Ground-types 30 checks and for that reason is the only one that should be considered at this stage.

Are there any other coverage types besides Fire and Ice that might prove useful to CAP30 in either form?

I can certainly name a few that would be useful, you can certainly make an argument about Fire vs Ground coverage if you want to fuck Heatran in particular, but with what we have to work with already (Body Press 30b, Tinted Lens Flying-stab, Fire/Ice coverage) I don't think we need to push it with the coverage really any farther. We have a solid base with this set-up, I think most things one could suggest would end up being rather superfluous.

 

[dex]

Thunder Wave has drawn attention for its ability to prevent bulky checks from reliably acting against CAP30. Does it have any other uses against the Pokemon on our threats list? What other status-inflicting moves have uses with CAP30?

Are there any other important status moves that have been omitted?

I've come around to Thunder Wave as a utility option. I do think some caution is required since this is a Twave user that forces out most Ground-types, but the move has some pretty clear benefits to it for both forms. I would be fine slotting it into Optional.

Toxic is just generally a good move. I don't think it would be too strong on CAP30 given that the primary switchins to both forms are bulky steels and poisons, but I think it's a fine choice to add to Optional that doesn't break anything.

Wisp probably would not see use in the face of Twave and Toxic. It's a good move, but I don't think CAP30 really takes advantage of it too well. Probably best to leave it off the list.

 

[Astra]

What implications does Rapid Spin's speed boost have for either form? How does it compare to Defog?

I don't think CAP30b would really benefit much from Rapid Spin's Speed boosts bar from potentially very niche scenarios against some of its matchups (something like being able to outspeed Heatran to beat it with Body Press, for example). At that caliber, though, it doesn't seem like a very influential attribute to bring our full attention to.

Rapid Spin's Speed boosts does potentially have some benefits for CAP30i, though, mainly forcing the opponent to keep their checks to CAP30i that are usually faster than it healthy. Most of its planned checks listed here get at least 2HKOed by CAP30i, so the opponent again would need to be a lot more cautious as to how much damage those checks take throughout the match. I don't necessarily think throwing this into the mix is game-changing; all it does is potentially add some complexity to the CAP30i matchup.

One of the important differences between Rapid Spin and Defog in regards to CAP30 is that it makes matchups against Ghost-types less favorable, though out the viable Ghost-types currently in the metagame, only Aegislash would want to be switching in directly often, especially against CAP30i. CAP30b would be hurt the most from this, though, potentially giving Pokemon like Dragapult a free turn if the opponent rightfully predict that CAP30b uses Rapid Spin. Even if the prediction is wrong, the worst that can happen is that it gets crippled by Thunder Wave, but I doubt CAP30b would have room to run both Rapid Spin and Thunder Wave on the same set.

As a whole, though, Defog is overall the better, well-rounded choice of entry hazard removal if we want both formes to benefit well from it, while Rapid Spin only really benefits CAP30i by forcing its matchup to take into account its Speed boosts, while CAP30b would have more trouble finding opportunities to actually use it (not to mention that possibility of being forced to contact damage and risk getting statused from Pokemon like Static Zapdos, not that it matter that much, but it's just an avoidable inconvenience had it had Defog instead.

For the most part, I agree with dex and Zetalz in regards to the other questions. Thunder Wave and Toxic seems alright to be slotted as optional status moves; anything else isn't really needed or worth it. In terms of coverage, Ice Beam is probably one of the best options over any other Ice-type move just for its consistency. Fire coverage I'm a little on the fence on because something like Flamethrower or Heat Wave seems to have a bigger benefit over Ice Beam, considering that it targeting Steel-types, one of CAP30's most stressed matchups as a whole, seems to be very beneficial for it, but that could potentially just be me being paranoid. I do agree that we don't really need to push CAP30's coverage beyond Ice and Fire, though; those two typings already cover a lot of ground, and any other typing would either be not impactful enough to justify it being used or potentially too overwhelming (more stress on the former).

 

[boo836]

What kind of utility moves would each form make use of? What impacts do one form's proposed utility moves have on the other form?

Taunt is the single most important move for 30i to wallbreak if it has no boosting options. There is no reasonable way to expect this Pokemon to function as a viable wallbreaker without being able to disable status moves and out-tanking attacks from walls. Think Stallbreaker Mew but with higher damage output at the cost of bulk.

There are plenty of utility options that would benefit 30i. Defog is rather obvious, but CAP30 would struggle to make use of it compared to Crobat and Weezing-Galar. That said, certain stat spreads in conjunction with Body Press would pose a problem to Bisharp and Zapdos-Galar, arguably the two best Defog punishes in OU. Court Change would be an optimal support move that would deter hazard use and act as a strong punishing play vs Hail HO, but unfortunately the CAP process has a shitload of arbitrary restrictions that helps steer the community towards generating largely unviable creations, including restrictions surrounding so-called "exclusive moves," which as I've pointed out in a deleted post, is a completely made up concept with little basis in Game Freak's game design, especially concerning future generations. If a genuinely optimal choice like Oblivion Wing is barred from discussion, it is very difficult to see another optimal "exclusive" being selected. That said, I am strongly in favour of Court Change over Defog given the completely unique support this move offers to 30i as a Tinted Lens wallbreaker, as forcing a switch and taking the turn to steal offensive tempo is a strong pressure play that isn't often seen in Pokemon outside of Imposter. Rapid Spin does something somewhat similarly with worse results against bulkier offense teams, and with little use for 30b outside of a dedicated hazard-removal role. Parting Shot is another great move for a utility wallbreaker and a defensive tank, either providing offensive momentum or easing pressure on teammates. Tickle has a lot of interesting synergy with Body Press and Stamina on 30b even if 30b hits on the special side, because Body Press is calculated as a physical move. Trick Room always needs more viable set-up users and 30i can both abuse it and set it up in a supporting capacity for a teammate's sweep. These utility options potentially carve out unique roles for both CAP30 formes.


Given the boosted power of its STABs, does 30i need any coverage? If so, how does the coverage interact with Tinted Lens?

the idea that a mon doesn't need coverage because it has Tinted Lens makes very little sense to anyone that's used Tinted Lens in an OM or used Yanmega in DPP. In past threads, we've covered that there is effectively a ceiling on the damage 30i can put out without coverage or boosting moves. Tinted Lens isn't a catch-all that removes the necessity of coverage, it needs coverage to determine what, out of otherwise dozens of checks, beat 30i. Part of that will be about leveraging 4x Super Effective coverage. I strongly advise Ground coverage, especially Scorching Sands as a means of checking Heatran without beating GalarKing, the idea being to give this Pokemon a more consistent matchup vs Heatran without breaking past Galarking. Per the previous stage the wallbreaker checks more than the tank and largely the exact same Pokemon, which is a massive issue if we want both formes to be viable. Ice coverage would be helpful for checking Landorus, Garchomp, and Colossoil, but at that rate we're basically just making a better Chromera, which is already a Poison wallbreaker/tank with Ice coverage.



What kind of coverage would 30b prefer? Are there any moves that have particular interactions with Stamina?

30B has less of a need for coverage owing to its role as a wall/tank. Body Press has the advantage of benefiting from Stamina and potentially attacking from a different side of the spectrum than normal. That's really, really good for a physically defensive, specially offensive tank, which is the most likely outcome, as wallbreaking with a 70% accurate move is a hard sell. Fighting/Flying/Poison is also fairly strong coverage.


Do the proposed coverage moves of each form have problematic implications with the other form?

That cannot really be determined without stats, because the calcs are going to make or break these formes. imo the issue right now is that we've boxed ourselves into basically making two formes that outclass the last Fakemon the community made. I'm not saying that Ice coverage isn't reasonable and optimal for this project, it absolutely is. However, it really seems like we're already relegating Chromera to the dustbin.



What implications does Rapid Spin's speed boost have for either form? How does it compare to Defog?

As I said before, certain stat spreads can allow CAP30b to become an interesting deterrent to common punishes against Defog. Contrastingly, Rapid Spin is better suited to 30i as a wallbreaker with potential for late-game cleaning.

Thunder Wave has drawn attention for its ability to prevent bulky checks from reliably acting against CAP30. Does it have any other uses against the Pokemon on our threats list? What other status-inflicting moves have uses with CAP30?

Paralysis isn't particularly helpful for CAP30. The example given of a utility wallbreaker was Thunder Wave Melmetal, a Pokemon that has unique competitive properties that synergize well with Paralysis (read: Double Iron Bash). The best comparison would be Burn for 30b, which would severely skew matchups against almost any physical attacker in conjunction with Stamina and access to reliable recovery.

Are there any other important status moves that have been omitted?

Toxic Thread at best could help deter faster non-Steel, non-Poison switch-ins against 30i. Otherwise, no.

Given Body Press's presence on the list, what else does Fire coverage bring to CAP30? Is there a preference for putting physical or special options, based purely on our threats list, or is just listing the common ones (something like Flare Blitz / Blaze Kick / Fire Blast / Flamethrower or Heat Wave) sufficient?

Special Fire coverage would help against Kartana, Ferrothorn, Scizor, Corviknight, Excadrill, and Aegislash. I think that Mystical Fire is an interesting contender that can muscle past 4x weak mons without 2hkoing Corviknight, but we have to bear in mind that Fire coverage will significantly reduce the amount of switch-ins for CAP30.

Ice Beam has been given as a specific example of an Ice-type coverage move, due to targeting the weaker special defense of the Ground types CAP30 can switch in on. What about in the physical Ice-type moves (Triple Axel / Ice Punch / etc.), or other special moves like Blizzard?

I think CAP30b should have either Triple Axel and Ice Beam depending on its stronger attacking stat. If we (rightfully) decide that trying to wallbreak with Hurricane is a bad idea, it would likely be Ice Beam.

Are there any other coverage types besides Fire and Ice that might prove useful to CAP30 in either form?

Water is a fantastic coverage option alongside Flying STAB, which was a big part of why I was strongly against the possibility of Water Bubble. It would also (somewhat) avoid overlap with Chromera when it comes to checking particular Ground and Fire types. Ground coverage is helpful against Heatran, but at base 100 in each stat, Body Press after one Stamina boost outdamages SpDef Heatran, making its relevance a matter of base stats. Electric has decent coverage with Poison and Flying, but all three attacking types struggle against Rock/Steel/Ground types.


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In the future we are going to have to start making comparative reviews of the stages so we don't run into the issue of outclassing recent previous creations again. I am also going to strongly recommend that we revisit policy surrounding barred moves and abilities. A lot of abilities and moves with useful competitive mechanics and potential interactions are often unique to a particular Pokemon. Over the past while, we have seen significantly more leniency on this aspect of the process, even going so far as to make a Pokemon that has access to Doom Desire. This direction is integral to the future relevance of the CAP project as a community-led exploratory process of a mechanically robust strategy game. I strongly advocate that we start taking our cues from Other Metagames and focus on mechanics with competitive relevance, as opposed to flavour-based hinderances that are becoming increasingly irrelevant by Game Freak's own game designs in recent (and future) generations. Sky Attack was a Legendary-exclusive move that is now widely accessible. Sacred Sword is a similar case that is less accessible. Hi Jump Kick was exclusive to Hitmonlee. Morning Sun was exclusive to Espeon. Until they weren't.

 

[Amamama]

What implications does Rapid Spin's speed boost have for either form? How does it compare to Defog?

I don’t think, that Rapid Spin and defog are functionally too different on 30b. Defog is a tad more reliable as team support and a rapid spin boost probably doesn’t do a whole lot for 30b, unless you count a faster roost against the speedy ice and electric mons as meaningful interaction. I think it might prefer Defog, if it had access to both, but I think Rapid spin would be used regardless (if it fits on movesets).
30i definitely would prefer Rapid Spin, mostly bc it wants to make use of its offensive presence and competing with an unresisted stab move is going to be hard for any utility, that doesn’t help wear down its switch ins or make it harder to deal with.
Defog clearing the whole field of hazards is also actually detrimental to it, as removing the own teams hazards, will likely impact its capability to 2hko opposing walls.
At the same time, the speed boost of rapid spin makes it harder for opposing teams to offensively pressure 30i. While this might be concerning, i think making it an optional move for stats, that would require some restrictions, is the right play. After all this is what this stage is for. Determining moves, that are pro concept/fit the mon we want to create, so people can adjust stats accordingly, if they want the move.

Thunder Wave has drawn attention for its ability to prevent bulky checks from reliably acting against CAP30. Does it have any other uses against the Pokemon on our threats list? What other status-inflicting moves have uses with CAP30?

Thunder wave would likely be the option, that gives 30i the chance to break past the steel and poison types, that want to check it.
Melmetal perfectly showcases this interaction as thunder wave allows it to outpace its checks and potentially break them if they become fully paralyzed and can’t recover.
In a way it would act as a less reliable taunt/more reliable Speed boost.

For 30b it might swing some matchups, especially with roost, as it could allow it to remove weaknesses, even on slower bulkier builds vs Pokémon, that want to check it. Overall though Idt it would be as impactful on 30b as it would be on 30i.

Glare obviously exists as the more threatening brother to twave.
Given though, that both forms already match up pretty well into ground types and would probably gain more from toxicing the likes of Landorusand Hippowdon, I don’t think it’s necessary or even better than twave in this case.

Speaking of toxic, I think it should be required.
While steel types remain the most basic checks to 30i, toxic enables it to cripple ground types and Slowbro/King without coverage (bc breaking hippo or the slows is pretty hard, without SE hits and toxicing Lando will help wear it down faster).
Depending on its Matchup vs. steels Toxic could also become solid for 30b as stamina helps it play the long game vs. physical threats and toxic adds to that.

Given Body Press's presence on the list, what else does Fire coverage bring to CAP30? Is there a preference for putting physical or special options, based purely on our threats list, or is just listing the common ones (something like Flare Blitz / Blaze Kick / Fire Blast / Flamethrower or Heat Wave) sufficient?

How good fire coverage is compared to body press, is pretty much down to stats. 30b might want to run both, as Some steels don’t really care about body press () and with high enough Atk/Spa Fire coverage might hit a lot harder than body press initially, bc 80bp coverage is just pretty weak.
I think, regardless of this, that Fire coverage, if there’s any interest in it, should be in the optional list for both forms for now. Bc if we want 30b to use fire coverage, 30i might try to use it as well and this must be accounted for in stats. (Even heatwave has the potential to make brave bird into heatwave a 2hko against Skarmory for example, with high enough SpA (90+))

Are there any other coverage types besides Fire and Ice that might prove useful to CAP30 in either form?

Water is still pretty solid coverage with both poison and flying and especially scald synergizes pretty well with stamina as well as CAP30s offensive typing, as burn can help cripple steel and poison type checks for 30b and make physical counterplay even harder.

 

[kjnjkmjk1]

This is what we'll be moving forward with (additions from this section in bold):

Required: At least one of (Gunk Shot / Poison Jab / Sludge Bomb), at least one of (Brave Bird / Drill Peck / Hurricane / Air Slash), at least one of (Roost / non-Roost unconditional 50% recovery), Body Press
Optional: Taunt, Knock Off, Rapid Spin, Thunder Wave, Toxic, at least one of (Triple Axel / Ice Punch / Ice Beam), at least one of (Flare Blitz / Blaze Kick / Fire Blast / Heat Wave)

Thunder Wave received a lot of support for its capability of crippling both offensive and defensive checks for 30i and, to a lesser extent, 30b. Toxic has also received support for how it can help wear down some without necessarily being overwhelming in the face of certain Poison and Steel-type checks that want to switch in on both forms. In terms of Ice coverage, no one really vouched for anything besides Ice Beam, but I have decided to include some physical options in the form of Triple Axel and Ice Punch due to our bias being undetermined. Fire coverage also continued to see some support, so I've added it in as well.

Our last set of categories will be boosting moves and priority moves.

Does 30i have any room for boosting, given the immediate power of Tinted Lens and the orb? What boosting moves could it make use of in its primary role of utility wallbreaker?

30b is in a unique position to accumulate boosts due to Stamina; however, its selected primary role is not focused on setup. Are there any setup moves that could help its primary role?

How much use does either form have for priority? Are there any priority moves that each form would get much mileage from?

I'll be giving a soft limit of 24 hours for this section, and then we'll go from there.

 

[Astra]

Does 30i have any room for boosting, given the immediate power of Tinted Lens and the orb? What boosting moves could it make use of in its primary role of utility wallbreaker?

30i definitely does have some room for a setup move as a potential "final slot" option, though we do need to be careful with what setup move in particular we give it. spoo mentioned on Discord that Swords Dance appears to be a feasible option as a setup move that wouldn't be completely overwhelming on at least one of the formes. Any move that boosts Speed and another stat like Dragon Dance definitely has the potential to make 30i very difficult to take on, especially for its checks that are meant to outspeed it at neutral, while moves like Calm Mind could make 30b a pain to break through with all of the boosting alongside Stamina it will be doing. Besides Swords Dance, I guess Hone Claws has some merit by not boosting as much as Swords Dance plus the added effect of moves like Gunk Shot becoming more reliable, but the latter benefit is almost good as trivial.

30b is in a unique position to accumulate boosts due to Stamina; however, its selected primary role is not focused on setup. Are there any setup moves that could help its primary role?

I kind of already answered this in response to the previous question, but just to elaborate, the setup options we have for 30b I feel are pretty limited due to fact that it can easily be overwhelming with setup moves alongside its Stamina boosts, especially with moves like Calm Mind. As I mentioned before, Swords Dance appears to be one of the only options we really have that I don't really see making both formes go completely overboard.

How much use does either form have for priority? Are there any priority moves that each form would get much mileage from?

I doubt that 30b would have any room to run any sort of priority over its already very good pool of utility options. It's probably not going to have enough power to revenge kill unless the foe is incredibly low, so it would definitely much rather run something like Knock Off or Thunder Wave that provide for it way more than priority as a whole.

30i might benefit a little bit more from priority, but like 30b, it probably won't have room for it over other options like coverage moves. I guess Sucker Punch could be useful for it, but I honestly don't see it running that even over other moves it may have access to.

Edit: As quziel stated in his post below, I suppose Nasty Plot can also be a potential option as a setup move CAP30 may have access to. The only worry I had with it was it's harder to punish than Swords Dance in this metagame, in my opinion, but I might just be overblowing it.

 

[quziel]

I said this before, but I feel that giving 30i access to Swords Dance or Nasty Plot could allow for a lot healthier response patterns. Consider how annoying it is to deal with Kyurem, with its ability to 2HKO literally everything, vs a wallbreaker such as Hydreigon which, earlier in the gen, which, despite having a lower power level (lower secondary stab damage), could still break just about everything, but had a bit more leeway to play against because it didn't just KO everything at +0. Aka SD/NP let us lower our attack, thus making counterplay easier, while still giving us the ability to actually break things, albeit over a longer period of time (poison typing works great with that). Its an excellent choice for a defining move for spreads that are more open to playing the long game rather than just clicking. Make Swords Dance and Nasty Plot defining moves.

With respect to 30b, I think giving access to lower power boosting moves could be very useful. Stamina means that we have the space to click something as weak as even Growth and still benefit greatly. Stamina naturally rewards us for staying in literally forever, so a weak boosting option is an option that could add a bit of playstyle complexity while synergizing greatly with well, stamina. I don't think something like Calm Mind is really desirable because a mon that can get to +6/+6/+6 somewhat reliably seems like hell to deal with. Make Work Up, Growth, or Equivalent a defining move.

----

Sucker Punch is cool because it makes Dragapult sad, which is something that 30i will really desire. Its not necessary at all, but would let us flex into a more anti-offense role rather than being pidgeonholed into "I make fat teams without Skarmory sad". This is something I think could be argued for a defining move.

 

[Darek]

W.r.t. boosting, I pretty much agree with what's mentioned before. It makes counterplay easier by bringing in faster threats to force out 30i on the turn it SD's. Of course, it does limit our stats quite a bit, but I think it services fine as an optional move.

For 30b, however, I don't really find boosting to be of any particular benefit to us. Between STABs, Body Press, additional coverage, and Roost, 30b already struggles with moves lots and thus likely can't afford boosting anyway. Nor is boosting pro-concept either: Tanks excel in their ability to trade hits, and as such threaten immediate power instead of boosting more often than not. Giving 30b boosting puts limits on our stats that prevents it from having as much immedeate pressure as we'd like.

Then for priority, while not intrinsically bad, doesn't really do much to help us either. Once again, I don't think 30b has the moveslots for priority, and although 30i can benefit from it, we might also need to be weary of it. Specifically, when combined with boosting, it does limit counterclaim quite a bit as 30i is now able to threaten faster threats with boosted priority after some chip. On 30i without boosting I don't see any problems with priority but also don't see a good reason to provide it.

 

[Lasen]

Does 30i have any room for boosting, given the immediate power of Tinted Lens and the orb? What boosting moves could it make use of in its primary role of utility wallbreaker?
30b is in a unique position to accumulate boosts due to Stamina; however, its selected primary role is not focused on setup. Are there any setup moves that could help its primary role?

I will echo the sentiment from earlier: I'd rather not see Dragon Dance or Quiver Dance, as boosting Speed alongside either offensive stat could make 30i extremely difficult to take on. Swords Dance is a great move for what we're aiming to do, especially when considering our typing on 30i provides good coverage for both of our STAB options. Nasty plot I am not as crazy about, purely because Hurricane is a busted move.
Another move I'd like to take a look at, though, is Acid Armor. Acid Armor is a move that feels fairly innocuous, but helps us run an even better Body Press. Not only does it not break 30b as it merely speeds up what we could realistically already achieve with Stamina, but it also makes the non-STAB 30i Body Press have a little bit of extra oomph behind it. Also acts as another deterent for Steel-types!
I also want to make a very short case for Coil which transforms Gunk Shot into a way more accurate STAB option but it necessitates a set-up turn to take full advantage of, so it'd definitely be way more fringe.

How much use does either form have for priority? Are there any priority moves that each form would get much mileage from?

Priority can be cool I suppose but I don't see it as a necessity. Hitting Heatran with Aqua Jet or nailing a super low Dragapult with Ice Shard feels nice for sure, but moreso as a "win-more" luxury.

 

[spoo]

Does 30i have any room for boosting, given the immediate power of Tinted Lens and the orb? What boosting moves could it make use of in its primary role of utility wallbreaker?

Agreeing with the above posts that SD/NP are good options. 30i really only has two essential moveslots, those being recovery and Flying-type STAB; one of the remaining two moveslots is then assumed to be dedicated to some kind of utility, and the last one is more or less completely free, which is where I see SD slotting in nicely. A set like (SD/NP) / (BB/Cane) / Roost / Utility (spin, status, priority, etc) feels very cohesive to me.

30b is in a unique position to accumulate boosts due to Stamina; however, its selected primary role is not focused on setup. Are there any setup moves that could help its primary role?

I don't really think there are. I can follow the logic with Growth/Work Up, but I don't think they would necessarily be all that good or strong -- I'm in agreement with Darek that moveslots are already an issue for 30b, and while something like BB/Flamethrower/Growth/Roost could potentially be okay, I'm still skeptical. I'd rather wait until movesets to hand out those moves as they don't strike me as something with a particularly large impact on stats.

How much use does either form have for priority? Are there any priority moves that each form would get much mileage from?

Sucker Punch is a thing I guess? It's a cool option, but not one I would want to see in conjunction with SD and not one I think there's a pressing need for. Mostly indifferent about this.

 

[kjnjkmjk1]

This is what we'll be moving forward with (additions from this section in bold):

Required: At least one of (Gunk Shot / Poison Jab / Sludge Bomb), at least one of (Brave Bird / Drill Peck / Hurricane / Air Slash), at least one of (Roost / Recover / Slack Off / Milk Drink / Soft-Boiled), Body Press
Optional: Taunt, Knock Off, Rapid Spin, Thunder Wave, Toxic, at least one of (Triple Axel / Ice Punch / Ice Beam), at least one of (Flare Blitz / Blaze Kick / Fire Blast / Heat Wave), at least one of (Swords Dance, Nasty Plot)

Among boosting options, Swords Dance received the most support for how it can slot in on 30i while providing for some leeway for counterplay if we design around it. Nasty Plot did not receive quite as much support, due to the special side being less easy to punish, but serves a similar purpose to Swords Dance. Acid Armor is intriguing for its synergy with Body Press and how it pushes that move's capabilities, but it did not receive much support. Bulk Up and Coil provide a kind of merger between Swords Dance and Acid Armor, but they were also lacking in support.

As for priority, the consensus seems to be that it is not necessary. Sucker Punch is the most notable move for its anti-Dragapult properties, but has not been seen as important enough to list.

I also want to announce the change of "only one of (Roost / Recover / etc.)" to "at least one of (Roost / Recover / etc.)". My initial intention in choosing the wording of "only one" was that not much direct support was given to Wulfanator's suggestion that we allow both. However, I have decided to allow it, as no one seemed to directly oppose this possibility, either.

I'll now be opening the floor for final comments on all sections. You can comment on the inclusion, exclusion, or placement of any of the moves listed, and you can advocate for or even just discuss previous moves from the thread. Barring an uptick in discussion, this is a final 24 hour warning before the thread closes.

 

[Astra]

I apologize in advance if this post lacks cohesion; I tried to fit all of my extra thoughts on things I never got to post because I was busy with procrastinating college stuff. Anyways, here's some of my opinions are things that weren't really covered or weren't covered at all.

A couple of days ago on Discord, discussion regarding potentially giving CAP30 coverage in Mystical Fire and Scald was happening there when neither of them really were talked about in here, so I figured that I would at least state my opinions on them.

Mystical Fire as Fire coverage can potentially provide a lot of utility to face special attackers, especially for 30b with it combined with Stamina. My worry with this, though, is that this combination may be too overwhelming for teams in general to face 30b specifically (30i may find some use with it, but not as much as 30b), unless 30b Special Defense is not that good. Its Poison typing preventing it from being worn down by Toxic also adds to this potential issue. Again, I could be potentially overblowing, but I wanted to bring the idea to the table to hear other people's thoughts on it.

Scald, as I mentioned, was also brought up as a potential coverage move, though I'm also iffy about it. Unlike my reasoning for Mystical Fire, however, I'm not too big on Scald because I honestly see it as pretty redundant, specifically for 30b. It's already going to be very bulky physically, so I don't really see how it can really change its matchups through spreading burns other than to just be annoying.

Water coverage in general over Ice coverage was also brought up, as they target mostly the same Pokemon, with whatever Water-type move we give CAP30 particularly targeting Heatran and Ice Beam being a harder hit against Landorus-T and makes sure Dragapult can't switch-in for free often. This is obviously an overgeneralization, but again, I wanted to bring it to the table.

I would like to throw some support for having Sucker Punch be an optional move. I know the "fuck Dragapult" narrative is pretty tiring, though I personally do think it could be a niche option for 30i specifically to revenge kill faster Pokemon. It does already have a lot of moves it would rather run most of the time, but again, it could be nice to have a niche option like it for revenge killing (or if you really hate Dragapult).

I also would like to give support to Acid Armor and Coil as potential setup options for CAP30 for similar reasons Lasen described. For 30b, Acid Armor really just speeds up the process of building up Defense boosts alongside Stamina, which obviously wouldn't be the best strategy, but it can really help it with its matchup against Steel-types. 30i could run it too, but definitely not enough for us to worry about. Coil is also really neat for synergizing nicely with Gunk Shot for 30i in particular. Again, I don't really see this getting out of hand because it's not like 30i would be benefiting from the accuracy boost with anything else other than Gunk Shot (unless its mixed and running Hurricane, which I really hope won't be an optimal option), and having to squeeze it into its moveset with competition with other moves shouldn't make this something to sweat on. Overall, these two moves I believe give a lot of variety to what CAP30's formes can run, and even if they won't be as optimal as other options, it would be enough at least to genuinely think about running such options.

 

[Amamama]

ok so I think 30b with STABs, Recovery, Body Press and Fire or ice coverage looks pretty solid to me and I don’t think it needs much more. Any utility it might want, it can grab from 30i.
I still think that 30i looks a bit messy, maybe bc it’s still not really clear, what it wants to do, outside of hitting stuff hard.
In general we distinguished utility moves, that help it wear down or overwhelm switch ins, as the most likely viable additions.
Be it Taunt, Knock Off, Swords dance or toxic and thunder wave.
Considering, that 30is damage ceiling is pretty stiff (not too sure how to call it otherwise, but while it’s able to hit any wall for neutral damage, it most likely will lack the ability to predict a switch in and overwhelm a check with its coverage, like a lot of other wallbreaker do), I think that these moves are incredibly important for 30i.
On the other hand though, we definitely should be cautious to give 30i all of these options at once and create another astro situation.
Imo, we should restrict these utility options to ONLY ONE of Taunt, Knock off or Swords dance/Nasty Plot and restrict coverage for 30i, if any one of these moves is chosen to be required.
I think a combination of status moves and one of the above is fine, as toxic only helps with the slows and stuff like hippo that’s fat but equally forced out and thunder wave still relies on chance to overwhelm the opponent.

I also think that rapid spin plus set up should only be allowed under strict limitations.

Other than that I wanted to throw my support behind Coil/screech/metal sound as weaker “set up” options, that in coils case play nicely into the strengths of our chosen typing, which is great at staying in for several turns and could increase 30is longevity as well as damage output and reliability or in screech/metal sounds case is a neat addition to Tinted Lens ability to break through stuff, as it can force the opponent into a bind of either taking 90% damage against their switch in or double out into a maybe weaker answer, while not pressuring the opponent as much to find an offensive answer.

And then there’s I think a BIG omission (maybe I missed the discussion on it), but UTURN is very relevant to 30is intended role imo.
With uturn we get a lot more freedom to disallow other coverage options.
Uturn often enables wallbreaker, that have a hard wall against them, like Urshifu-R and Syclant, to not be a momentum sink and wear down switch ins to the point, where they can bust through.
Given 30is hard damage ceiling, I believe that it will be one of these mons.
Uturn will work similarly to Taunt, Knock Off or Status, wearing down switch ins and while we chose not to make 30i a pivot previously, I think this is still a strong option alongside its utility moves.

 

[boo836]

Does 30i have any room for boosting, given the immediate power of Tinted Lens and the orb? What boosting moves could it make use of in its primary role of utility wallbreaker?

Hone Claws is the best option if CAP30i will have access to boosts. Please do not give 30i +2 boosting moves. This is just a flat-out bad idea that eliminates Slowbro and neutrally hit walls as defensive switch-ins. Set-up as a whole really undermines the point of utility wallbreaking too, which is to exploit forced switches with support moves that help break down switch-ins.

+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 246-291 (62.4 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 195-231 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 208-246 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


It's weird that we suddenly decided on making something that has no real defensive checks. I have no idea why this is even being considered after several stages of assuming +2 boosts would not be available. I am strongly against this route and would rather see 30i lean into its role of utility wallbreaker.


30b is in a unique position to accumulate boosts due to Stamina; however, its selected primary role is not focused on setup. Are there any setup moves that could help its primary role?

Tickle (-1 Att, -1 Def) can be considered something of a set-up move that has significant utility alongside Stamina and Body Press. Tickle can also be useful for pseudo-phazing, and can potentially see use by 30i as a weaker substitute for Bulk Up/Coil.



How much use does either form have for priority? Are there any priority moves that each form would get much mileage from?

Mach Punch and Sucker Punch and Accelerock are all interesting options for checking faster offensive threats, hitting Weavile, Dragapult, and Tornadus/Volcarona/Scylant, respectively.

 

[Zetalz]

Frankly I'm not terribly convinced we need to slot U-Turn into optional at this point. 30b is obviously disincentivized from wanting to use it, and while 30i does get some good use out of it, the rocks weakness will keep it from clicking it a fair amount of the time I feel when it also wants to heal and clicka da button. I also like, don't think it really would that much impact on stats? Certainly not as much as Knock or Taunt anyhow. I'm not against slotting it into optional but it doesn't feel necessary to do so imo.

As far as the alternative boosting options go the only ones that should be considered for optional are Acid Armor & Coil, frankly speaking status moves that lower your opponent's stats are gimmicky at best and terrible at worst (85 Accuracy on Screech/Metal Sound lmao). You would much rather chunk a switchin with an attack, throw out a status, fucking click anything else that doesn't drain your momentum like those moves do. This is coming from the guy who unironically used Metal Sound Equilibra during it's testing stage, I've witnessed firsthand how busted shit like original unnerfed Libra fails to utilize these kinds of moves even with the threat of nukes like Doom Desire.

Also also plz no more extensions, free Mathematician Lasen from prison.

 

[spoo]

On the other hand though, we definitely should be cautious to give 30i all of these options at once and create another astro situation.
Imo, we should restrict these utility options to ONLY ONE of Taunt, Knock off or Swords dance/Nasty Plot and restrict coverage for 30i, if any one of these moves is chosen to be required.
I think a combination of status moves and one of the above is fine, as toxic only helps with the slows and stuff like hippo that’s fat but equally forced out and thunder wave still relies on chance to overwhelm the opponent.

I also think that rapid spin plus set up should only be allowed under strict limitations.

I agree with you that all these options at once would be overbearing and a really bad idea; however, I don't think that means we need to implement such a strict restriction at this stage. I would much prefer stat submitters being able to choose which move or route they would like to pursue on their own, instead of forcing them into only one option. I find it highly unlikely that we'll end up with something like Swords Dance + Taunt on the final product; I imagine many stat submitters will pick only one of these moves to center their spread around, and I'd personally like to leave that choice open right now.

The Speed boost from Rapid Spin is also slightly worrying when combined with SD in particular but I'm really not worried about it that much, especially if a stat spread that elects to pursue Rapid Spin is diligent about properly accounting for its added strength. It's a very minor concern for me personally, though I do see where the concern ultimately stems from.

Please do not give 30i +2 boosting moves. This is just a flat-out bad idea that eliminates Slowbro and neutrally hit walls as defensive switch-ins. Set-up as a whole really undermines the point of utility wallbreaking too, which is to exploit forced switches with support moves that help break down switch-ins. It's weird that we suddenly decided on making something that has no real defensive checks. I have no idea why this is even being considered after several stages of assuming +2 boosts would not be available. I am strongly against this route and would rather see 30i lean into its role of utility wallbreaker.

This feels like a large overstatement to me. I don't think there's any reason for us to be this concerned and fatalistic about the prospect of boosting moves. I'll try to take this point by point because there's a lot to unpack here:

This is just a flat-out bad idea that eliminates Slowbro and neutrally hit walls as defensive switch-ins.

+2 Boosting moves do complicate defensive counterplay, but the tradeoff is that our unboosted power will be much weaker than without SD/NP. This opens up new avenues of counterplay on its own. Without boosting, we will likely be able to 2HKO our outright OHKO every relevant mon in the tier with a single move, bar two or three exceptionally bulky answers; I don't see how this is much better than a situation where we're far more limited in base but can conditionally boost our power even further.​

​

Set-up as a whole really undermines the point of utility wallbreaking too...I am strongly against this route and would rather see 30i lean into its role of utility wallbreaker.

The two aren't mutually exclusive – what would you call a set of SD/BB/Roost/Spin? Or NP/Cane/Roost/TWave? The definition of utility breaker you're operating under feels very narrow to me. It could be argued that the examples I gave aren't as "utility breaker" as, say, something like BB/Knock/Roost/Taunt, but that's just splitting hairs at that point; they're all ultimately variations on the same theme.​

​

It's weird that we suddenly decided on making something that has no real defensive checks.

I think calcs can sometimes be misleading. I could list out LO NP Hydreigon calcs or Specs Blacephalon calcs all day long and they would be (and are) terrifying, but both of these Pokemon are ultimately limited in crucial ways, which we are as well. Our forced reliance on fundamentally unreliable STAB options (be it heavy recoil or inaccuracy) and crucially our weakness to Rock are two important ones to point out here. We will still have defensive counterplay even if we hand out boosting, as well as new offensive counterplay like I previously mentioned.​

On a last note, boosting is far from "decided," so framing it like that is a bit weird; it's an optional move for a reason, and any stat spread that elects to include boosting will have to adjust its strength accordingly – that is the whole point of this stage. Arguing that boosting hamstrings stats too much would honestly make more sense than saying it's outright impossible to balance (though I still disagree with the former).​

I have no idea why this is even being considered after several stages of assuming +2 boosts would not be available.

I'll concede to this point a bit, because it's true that we decided earlier against boosting and I'm not sure if there was ever a formal statement saying "it's okay now." That said, this decision came even before our typing was decided. I personally viewed it as less of an unbending commitment, and more along the lines of "this is the direction that makes sense for us at the moment." Boosting surely would have been better left untouched for some other typings that were slated (Dark/Flying comes to mind), but given the information we have now, I don't think this decision makes as much sense as it did before, so there is no reason to stick by it.​

To comment on other things brought up since kj's last post:
I'm in agreement with Zetalz that U-turn feels largely unnecessary and stat-lowering moves are basically just jokes. They always sound cool on paper but we will have better stuff to do than be running Screech. It's a neat idea to force your opponent into lose-lose situations where they switch in their one answer, get their stats lowered, and are forced to switch into something suboptimal, but in practice it rarely ever plays out this way; I genuinely can't think of an OU mon from the past three or so generations that runs Screech/Metal Sound/etc consistently (maybe one exists, but it's not coming to me).

I'm indifferent on Coil/Acid Armor. I don't really think they're all that good or impactful which makes me lean towards leaving them for movesets, but I could definitely be wrong so whatever lol. Mystical Fire is honestly kinda cool so I wouldn't mind seeing that thrown in for Fire coverage. Water-type coverage on the other hand feels unnecessary for our purposes and we always can circle back to it in movesets if we really want to.