CAP 31 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[spoo]

CAP 31 So Far

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Please pay very close attention to Darek's posts during this thread and remain on topic. DO NOT begin by posting massive lists of abilities!

Some general rules for this discussion:

• Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
• Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Fully Banned Abilities group

Arena Trap
As One
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Chilling Neigh
Dark Aura
Dauntless Shield
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Dragon's Maw
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Grim Neigh
Gulp Missile
Hunger Switch
Ice Face
Illusion
Imposter
Intrepid Sword
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Teravolt
Transistor
Turboblaze
Unseen Fist
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Soft Banned Abilities group

These abilities are banned by default and should not be discussed barring exceptional cases. If you believe one of these abilities should be considered, you can make a post trying to explain why an exception is warranted in this specific case and if both the TL and Ability Leader agree, it will be allowed. If the TLT disagrees with the unbanning proposal, they should be considered fully banned and should not be further discussed.

Bulletproof
Color Change*
Defeatist
Dry Skin
Flash Fire
Fur Coat
Gorilla Tactics
Huge Power
Ice Scales
Libero*
Levitate
Lightning Rod
Magic Guard
Mimicry*
Motor Drive
Parental Bond
Protean*
Pure Power
Regenerator
Sap Sipper
Slow Start
Stall
Storm Drain
Truant
Volt Absorb
Water Absorb
Water Bubble

*These abilities can only be considered for an unban if the Ability stage is done before typing.

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Primary Ability banlist

Fully Banned Abilities group + Soft Banned Abilities group + flavor ability-only group

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Ability banlist PRC threads:

• US/UM: http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7391668
• SW/SH: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3659245/

We recently finished up the second Concept Assessment stage for CAP 31 with the following conclusions:

• We need a niche compared to other Ground-types.
• Leveraging the +2 Defense from Diamond Storm is very important.
• Offensive-leaning builds might be the most effective.

I'm now going to turn over the discussion to our CAP Ability SL, Darek.

 

[Darek]

What's good everyone, it's Darek here for the Ability stage of CAP31. So far we've laid a good amount of groundwork regarding CAP31, but there's still a lot of space to explore. So without further ado, let's look at some questions:

1. What abilities give CAP31 greater incentive to click Diamond Storm, and in what ways? Examples of this include:
   1. Directly improving the power of the Diamond Storm or its secondary effect.
   2. Capitalizing off of Defense boosts.
   3. Allowing Diamond Storm to cover more of the opponent's options.
2. What abilities grant CAP31 more opportunities to use Diamond Storm over the course of the game?
3. Of the abilities that answer one or both of the previous questions, are there any that immediately distinguish CAP31 from other Grounds in the tier?

 

[dex]

What abilities give CAP31 greater incentive to click Diamond Storm, and in what ways?

There aren't that many abilities that improve Diamond Storm's power or its secondary effect; obviously, Serene Grace is a thing, but I think this route is largely uninteresting and doesn't actually take advantage of Diamond Storm that much. Furthermore, the only option I can see for capitalizing off of Diamond Storm's boost is Filter, but even then, the most common moves that hit Ground super effectively are special outside of Weavile and the odd Rillaboom / Power Whip Ferrothorn, making this option less attractive. Where I think we can make a real difference with CAP 31 is in covering the opponent's options with Diamond Storm. Defiant is a pretty dastardly option that punishes the ever-present Landorus-T, which normally could sponge Diamond Storm effectively. Analytic similarly could be used to great effect, punishing the switches that Ground-types often force on Pokemon like Heatran, Tapu Koko, and Zeraora. While a bit more abstract, Moxie could have a devastating effect of punishing opposing sacks, letting CAP 31 steamroll through the opposition. Guts is another option that gives CAP 31 some ability to avoid status moves; however, I fear this treads too close to Colossoil.

What abilities grant CAP31 more opportunities to use Diamond Storm over the course of the game?

Thick Fat is an option that I think has a lot of merit. It vastly improves CAP 31's ability to get on the field against Pokemon like Heatran, Astrolotl, and Volcarona while allowing it to stay in situationally on Weavile to force it out with Diamond Storm. Mirror Armor is a funny option, as it essentially allows CAP 31 to turn the tables on metagame stalwarts Astrolotl and Landorus-T. Poison Heal gives CAP 31 some additional staying power in the face of Landorus-T and Zapdos; it is further made a great option by CAP 31's resistance to Stealth Rock. Immunity is a less powerful option that still does some work for CAP 31 against Toxic users Landorus-T and the rare Toxic Tapu Koko and Zeraora.

Of the abilities that answer one or both of the previous questions, are there any that immediately distinguish CAP31 from other Grounds in the tier?

Here, I want to ask for discussion concerning the Water-immunity abilities, specifically Dry Skin and Water Absorb, to be allowed. CAP 31 will inevitably be put under a lot of pressure from Scald users like Toxapex and Slowbro and other Water-type moves like Tapu Fini and Dragapult's Hydro Pump, and taking away that pressure will give it quite the niche over other Ground-types, particularly Garchomp.

Of the abilities I mentioned, I think that Thick Fat is particularly interesting as an option for its ability to let CAP 31 get onto the field more easily. Poison Heal is a supremely powerful ability that instantly would give CAP 31 a niche as a tough-to-take-down attacker. I'm not currently as sold on an offensive ability, but I think, of the three, Analytic has the most promise to it.

 

[spoo]

What abilities grant CAP31 more opportunities to use Diamond Storm over the course of the game?
Of the abilities that answer one or both of the previous questions, are there any that immediately distinguish CAP31 from other Grounds in the tier?

It is time to shill

Longevity is a massive factor for both of these questions. Looking at the 4 most relevant Ground-types in the tier –– Landorus-T, Garchomp, Colossoil, and Equilibra –– they are all fully reliant on Leftovers for recovery. Equilibra less so because of Pain Split, but this move ain't the best and its 4th slot is very meta-dependent anyways; "a knocked Libra is a dead Libra" is an adage old as time. Abilities that gives us more staying power will immediately set us apart from these options. I am also not considering Hippowdon / Gastrodon because they're specific at best and actually just bad if we get any less generous.

Oddly enough, defensive abilities that offer heightened longevity are weirdly synergistic with our offensively-oriented goals. Some of this can also be accomplished in stats and movesets, yes, but an ability that allows us to worry less about health, status, and item management will enable us in monumental ways to play aggressively and allocate stats/moveslots to more offensive spaces.

This brings me to Poison Heal, which I think is a phenomenal option that A) gives CAP31 the longevity to use Diamond Storm throughout the entire match, and B) the longevity/status immunity/Knock absorption(ish) that will distinguish it from other Ground-types. I don't want to dwell on this one option too much because we're not into ability submissions yet, so I'll also throw out that Thick Fat, Immunity, and Misty Surge are all cool (somewhat weaker) options that play into this same general mindset and help distinguish us from the other Ground-types to varying degrees.

Dex ninja'd me by legit 20 seconds so we probably repeated some stuff but this is where my head's at right now

 

[chartung17]

Apart from Sheer Force, which doesn't fit well with our concept, I don't see any abilities which directly improve the power of Diamond Storm. However, anything that blocks Intimidate could indirectly improve it and make it harder for Landorus to wall it. Serene Grace and Simple are both options that would improve the secondary effect, but I'm not sure they're the best options.

I was going to say that Poison Heal and Water Absorb would both be good ways to go CAP31 more opportunities to use Diamond Storm and to distinguish it from other ground types, but it looks like dex beat me to it.

 

[mark6870]

This is largely brain vomit with my idea of what CAP 31's ability will be

#1: Stamina. Funny idea, but largely redundant because of Diamond Storm. 4/10 would not want

#2: Solid Rock. Uncreative, but probably effective for taking a hit in a pinch. 4/10 still don't wanna eat a hydro pump from specs pult

#3: Thick Fat. Removing our weakness to Ice and gaining a resistance to Fire again helps defensively, especially for Heatran. This has been discussed in greater detail in other posts iirc. 7/10 we love our heatran checks

#4. Poison Heal. Out of all these abilities, I think this is the one I'd want most. Poison heal provides an immunity to status, knock, and provides this mon with the longevity it likely needs to check the pokemon I think it should check such as Heatran, boots Koko, and Zeraora. Thus longevity would also set it apart from Landorus and Garchomp, its main competitors. Its lack of passivity would set it apart from Gastrodon. 9/10 pheal tank sounds awesome

Modedit: removed flavor reasoning.

 

[min min]

1. What abilities give CAP31 greater incentive to click Diamond Storm, and in what ways? Examples of this include:
   1. Directly improving the power of the Diamond Storm or its secondary effect.
   2. Capitalizing off of Defense boosts.
   3. Allowing Diamond Storm to cover more of the opponent's options.
2. What abilities grant CAP31 more opportunities to use Diamond Storm over the course of the game?

the benefits of negating chip in some form have been discussed enough. in addition to Pheal, Misty Surge, and Immunity (and shed skin, and natural cure, and water veil/water bubble etc.) i would also like to suggest Sticky Hold to negate Knock Off. anyone who's played a good game against protect tankchomp/colo or a well-doubled lando/equilibra understands just how easy it is for a ground to get off all that lefties recovery. i don't think PHeal is needed to make CAP31 do this better than chomp/lando/colo/equi; just addressing any one status chip/item loss is enough.

other category of cool options to consider are abilities that negate/reverse stat drops, because intimidate cycling and the occasional defense drop can put a damper to whenever CAP31 gets a +2 boost. mirror armor is a pretty nice option for this (reversing intim on lando synergises with proccing a DS boost on the same turn), followed by defiant (synergises with DS being a rock move) and clear body (paired with insane attack it could be annoying).

 

[Amamama]

What abilities give CAP31 greater incentive to click Diamond Storm, and in what ways? Examples of this include:

1. Directly improving the power of the Diamond Storm or its secondary effect.
2. Capitalizing off of Defense boosts.
3. Allowing Diamond Storm to cover more of the opponent's options.

Parental Bond (Soft Banned), is a powerful boost to Diamond Storm. Parental Bond provides basically a STAB boost and also improves the boost Chance from Diamond Storm.
No other ability (except Neuroforce, which is hard banned, Protean which is hard banned after typing and Sheer Force, which removes a great part of what makes Diamond Storm interesting) are able to permanently Boost Diamond Storm in a similar way.
Now at the moment I don’t think it is entirely necessary, but Parental Bond has an incredibly unique interaction with Diamond Storm and I like to ask Darek to allow further discussion on it, to gauge wether it is too powerful or if it’s exactly the ability we are looking for.

Sand Force Boosts Diamond Storm in Sand, which seems fairly niche, but it still falls into this category.

Serene Grace is the most reliable boost to Dstorm, that isn’t (soft)banned. Guaranteeing the defense boost is pretty powerful but at the same time it kinda removes a very interesting part of Diamond Storm. A guaranteed boost will impact Stats a lot more than a possible boost, which means we aren’t as free to explore the interaction.
Additional minor counter point: Serene Grace also doesn’t have interctions with any of our Ground STABs afaik.
This option is for those that hate RNG.

Simple seems Uber Powerful at first glance, but considering the Matchup with Landorus, I don’t think that it will be useful most of the time.

What abilities grant CAP31 more opportunities to use Diamond Storm over the course of the game?

As we have realized in the previous assessment and in the discussion on discord providing additional longevity to 31 in some form is a great way to differentiate it from the offensively leaning ground types, which struggle with staying alive.
There are a fair few abilities that allow this, which fall into the following categories.

Additional Longevity:

Regenrator (Soft Banned) This is another Ability if like to talk about, but my priority is on Parental Bond atm and I will wait until we get a ruling on that.
Poison Heal Is imo absurdly powerful on a Ground type, probably even stronger than regenerator.
While it removes the ability of a ground type to use basically any item, the sustain and immunity to Status it provides is incredibly strong. On a type that resists stealth rock and offers an immunity for easy switch in, Poison Heal will likely guarantee a huge number of additional turns for CAP31. On top of that the immunity to status means, that a possible defense boost is even harder to punish as you can’t wear down 31 with Status.
Not having to fear burns is also really good for a physical attacker.
Status Immunity

Poison Heal see above
Misty Surge adds immunity to all Status, which is huge for a physical attacker, that wants to provide additional defensive Utility.
While this means we can’t use status as freely ourselves, we still are able to pressure the most natural switch ins in flying types with Status in addition to Diamond Storm.
It provides a defensive boost to your own team as well and A Ground, that effectively resists Dragon types is actually fairly nice.

Natural Cure provides Status Cure upon Switch out, which means, that 31 is able to stay alive longer. This is far weaker than other options, because it still takes chip and is crippled by burn but it possibly allows the option of Natural Cure Rest, which can provide a great amount of longevity.
Shed Skin potentially curing Status every turn is actually solid here and allows for Shed Rest sets, which could provide insane amounts of longevity (what if we made Sandaconda but better?)

Immunity abilities, additional resists

All immunity abilities are SoftBanned atm, but they are obviously great at creating a niche for any type.
Ground that’s immune to Shadow ball or grass moves?
I think there’s merit in discussing some of them but Ill leave it to others to ask for an unban.

Misty Surge see Above
Thick Fat is is probably the best option out of these. Not being weak to ice AND resisting fire is unique for an offensive Ground type. Switching in on Heatran and Astro and Threatening it with Ground STAB, while potentially being able to stay in on Weavile is huge and easily creates a niche for 31.
Grassy Surge It’s weird thinking about a ground, that weakens it’s own best STAB, but at the same time we now have a ground type that easily stays in on Lando, if it has a way to deal with Toxic, that might be able to cure 1/8 of its health per turn and provide Team Support.

Stat (Stage) altering Abilities
Defiant
Mirror Armor

Of the abilities that answer one or both of the previous questions, are there any that immediately distinguish CAP31 from other Grounds in the tier?

I think all of the above have that

 

[Brambane]

What abilities give CAP31 greater incentive to click Diamond Storm, and in what ways?

Movepool plays a larger role here than ability imo, as the decision to run Diamond Storm is going to be heavily about weighing your moveslot options. Still, from the ability stage, there are couple ways to look at this:

1. Options that interact directly with the Diamond Storm Defense boost
2. Options that increase the power of Ground STAB, requiring stronger Ground resists/immunes to switch in
3. Options that want you to stay in and attack with coverage

The first one is about survivability and targeting specific Pokemon that could invalidate our boosts. If the opponent has a Pokemon, or more likely, multiple Pokemon that don't give a shit about us boosting our Defense, then Diamond Storm reverts back to just being better Stone Edge. Which is fine in the terms of long-term viability most likely, but as SHSP said we can do better. Pokemon that don't care about +2 Defense include:

• Pokemon that don't directly attack, relying on status or fixed damage (i.e. Blissey)
• Special Attackers naturally
• Urshifu (since Surging Strikes ignores boosts)
• UNAWARE OFFENSIVE ARGHONAUT BABY
• Pokemon that can remove the boosts for a teammate (the real Unaware Argh with Circle Throw)

From an ability standpoint, we can target status users and Urshifu the easiest. There are a couple abilities that can block or mitigate status. Immunity and Water Veil are the weakest of the bunch, targeting the two most detrimental status afflictions to us. Shed Skin can mitigate but not prevent, but has some other strong interactions with the ubiquitous move Rest which makes it worthy of consideration. While inconsistent, Shed Skin has the potential the high-roll extremely well, providing massive value. Guts when combined with Flame Orb becomes very effective at blocking status and also improves our physical presence; however, it overlaps heavily with Colossoil. Poison Heal is the cream of the crop; an absolutely amazing ability that blocks all incoming status, but also gives you basically a free turn of healing every time you switch in on a status move like Toxic or Wisp. Urshifu is best targeted by Water immunity abilities, we should open up these up for CAP31. These abilities are also deceptively offensive in nature, providing a crucial Scald immunity and switch-in opportunities. Other than that, I guess there is Battle Armor, but I don't think the niche use of that ability is enough for us to build this CAP around.

The second point is pretty much just Adaptability. If you have a really, really strong Earthquake, you are going to switch in Flying-types, the ideal target for Diamond Storm. Vanilla af, but this would likely be effective.

The third one focuses more on stacking boosts. Again, movepool is big here, but any ability that provides us with meaningful stat boosts that encourage us to stay in and utilize coverage are going to be strong. Defiant and Moxie/Beast Boost are fantastic here, since we are going to be a partially or fully physical attacker. Speed boosting abilities, such as Speed Boost and Weak Armor, could also work very well for us. I would lean more into the stronger option here since our design space is so open, so Speed Boost is a strong contender.

What abilities grant CAP31 more opportunities to use Diamond Storm over the course of the game?

Anything that provides longevity really, but also abilities that prevent our Attack from being lowered. If you have an Attack drop, you are likely going to be burning PP with Diamond Storm. Longevity is pretty easy to address: Poison Heal, Shed Skin, and even Sticky Hold + Leftovers all provide some form of longevity. You could also focus more on resists in terms of longevity. Not only are you taking less damage from certain moves, but also you have more things you can switch in on and hypothetically click a healing move of some kind; space to heal is its own form of longevity. Good resist/immunity abilities for us are Thick Fat, Sap Sipper, and Flash Fire. Consequently, we open up Sap Sipper and Flash Fire in addition to Water immunity abilities. I personally think Sap Sipper is a little more situational for my liking, but it does have some applications like being immune to Leech Seed, and boosting our Attack is obv good stuff. Flash Fire also provides Wisp immunity, which is fantastic.

Abilities to prevent Attack drops include anything with burn immunity and Intimidate prevention. In addition to the aforementioned Guts and Defiant, Mirror Armor seems quite solid with some other useful interactions with Fire Lash and Shadow Ball.

Of the abilities that answer one or both of the previous questions, are there any that immediately distinguish CAP31 from other Grounds in the tier?

Type-Immunity abilities are strong and provide a unique defensive identity; they also all have some form of offensiver synergy by raising Attack (Sap Sipper) or preventing burns (Flash Fire and Water immunity.) The closest thing to these are the Water-immune Water/Grounds, which are all relatively weak attackers compared to the other Ground-types. Thick Fat is in a similar boat.

Defiant stands out, as none of the Ground-types have a particularly consistent way around Intimidate, nor do they capitalize off of switching into Defog. This ability has good synergy with Diamond Storm; the majority of Defoggers are immune to Ground STAB.

Adaptability is just big ol' strong EQ, but a really fucking strong Earthquake would likely stand out, even if it isn't terribly interesting design space.

Shed Skin and Poison Heal for mitigating status are exceptional choices, providing CAP31 with an identity that Garchomp and Lando-T wish they could have. Poison Heal is part of what carried Gliscor in OU since Gen V, even in the same format with another Ground/Flying-type. That is a testament enough how much a difference longevity and status immunity can make. Side note, it also means we can build around a "single use Toxic", which is a unique design space no other ability provides.

Speed Boost is an insane ability, but would make us stand out for sure. There is good synergy between Diamond Storm and Speed Boost, nabbing those Defense boosts before the opponent can attack.

Now I gotta go get ready for work

 

[Gekokeso]

Out for the weekend so I'm only gonna talk about 1 ability per point.

What abilities give CAP31 greater incentive to click Diamond Storm, and in what ways?
In order to get the most value out of diamond storm I do believe that we will want to have a way to make it so that 1. Each of Diamond Storm's limited usage counts. 2.This mon can easily get past or force out common pressure users like and to a lesser extent that murder it's pp.

Defiant is my preferred ability for this task. It immediately forces out defoggers like , (who is also unable to come in for the danger of boosting it) , and more whenever they are caught trying to remove rocks. and and being forced out in particular is great since having our diamond storm turns burnt out on pressure is less that ideal.

What abilities grant CAP31 more opportunities to use Diamond Storm over the course of the game?

Many are being supportive of poison heal as an option but I also want to bring Thick Fat for consideration.

Thick fat synergies tremendously well with the small defensive profile that mono ground brings to the table. Making ice a non ice means that after a Diamond Storm boost (and to a lesser extent ) can no longer get past us without hoping for multiple crits. An artificial resistance to fire without a weakness to Dragon or Fairy is also tremendously good, since it means that stuff like , , , and unboosted become switch-in opportunities.

Of the abilities that answer one or both of the previous questions, are there any that immediately distinguish CAP31 from other Grounds in the tier?

Both Defiant and Thick Fat are extremely good at setting us apart from the ground type competition. Being a ground type that takes on pretty much every electric of the tier gives it a very solid nice, which is accentuated by defiant's sheer power and thick fat's removal of fire neutrality and ice weakness.

Defiant making us a ground type that prevents defog and also isn't forced out but rather happy of lando switching into it is a tremendously good set of traits to have. Also highly punishes fire lash from astro.

Thick Fat differentiates us from the rest of grounds by making us resist fire, but unlike stuff like and to a lesser extent and we don't have a glaring double weakness to anything and we don't sacrifice important match ups like to do so.

 

[boo836]

Some other Abilities that I think should get considered:


Defiant
easily one of my fave abilities that I've wanted to see explored in a CAP. Would work well with CAP31 as a means to reverse the MU dynamics it has with Landorus. Also grants CAP31 a degree of field control over hazards and terrain, and with Diamond Storm it's in a good position to act as an answer to Defog users. I strongly support Defiant.


Sand Stream

As previously mentioned by spoo, Ground-types lack any real longevity. Sand Stream pairs well with Diamond Storm, boosting Defence while opening up the possibility of Shore Up and racking up passive damage on physical attackers that cannot break through CAP31. Instead of boosting attack power, Sand Stream would complement Diamond Storm defensively.

The issue though is that CAP31 with Sand Stream would strongly resemble Hippowdon, if not completely outclass it.





Sand Rush
-
I don't think it would be a good primary Ability, but Sand Rush is interesting because of its synergy with Diamond Storm. We're talking about a bulky cleaner that would be harder to answer with brute physical force, great as an answer for Hyper offensive teams, ESPECIALLY Meteorspam, and has the potential to snowball. Sandstorm basically becomes its own set-up move akin to Arctozolt's use of Hail


Serene Grace

is one I really, really, really think we need to be careful about. CAP31 is more vulnerable to Scald, Scorching Sands, and Paralysis, which will make bulky waters a great check for it. I also hope we avoid paraflinch if we go this route and instead look at other exclusive moves with >50% chances in addition to Diamond Storm (Lati-twins signature moves, Fiery Dance, even Sacred Fire should be looked at IMO). SG has a lot of potential with this concept and I'd hate to see that potential tossed in favour of a generic Ground-Type tank

Poison Heal

Kinda boring, but at least Ground/Rock/Normal has decent coverage. I'm also worried that PH will make this thing too bulky to break past.

Thick Fat

not caring as much about Weavile and checking Heatran could HELP craft a (kinda) unique niche for CAP31, but it's already something that Swampert can do.

Sap Sipper

Having a new Grass-spam check is nice, but also very boring design-wise. Grass spam also isn't as good in a metagame with Astrolotl and Venomicon

Mirror Armor

Neat ability that can (on paper) help check Astrolotl, but I feel like this will only force Astro to change up its moveset. Astro has Regenerator, so it won't mind being forced to switch out.

Grassy Surge

This one would be excellent if we could use Land's Wrath too. As previously mentioned, gives CAP31 a strong MU against Earthquake users like Landorus. While it's nice to have another setter CAP, I don't think CAP31 would be far from an ideal user of the Ability

 

[Kowasabii]

Some other Abilities that I think should get considered:


Sand Stream

As previously mentioned by spoo, Ground-types lack any real longevity. Sand Stream pairs well with Diamond Storm, boosting Defence while opening up the possibility of Shore Up and racking up passive damage on physical attackers that cannot break through CAP31. Instead of boosting attack power, Sand Stream would complement Diamond Storm defensively.

The issue though is that CAP31 with Sand Stream would strongly resemble Hippowdon, if not completely outclass it.

I like the idea of sand stream a lot. You would run the risk of outclassing hippowdon, but with its declining viability I don’t think it would be a major issue. Cap 31 could be withheld from gaining stealth rock to avoid completely outclassing hippo.

Giving it this ability could open the door to strategies. First you get residual chip from sand, it also could open the door for a move like Shore Up, when paired with diamondstorm it could allow you to build up defensively. Creating an OU parallel of mudsdale.

 

[kunchi]

What's good everyone, it's Darek here for the Ability stage of CAP31. So far we've laid a good amount of groundwork regarding CAP31, but there's still a lot of space to explore. So without further ado, let's look at some questions:

1. What abilities give CAP31 greater incentive to click Diamond Storm, and in what ways? Examples of this include:
   1. Directly improving the power of the Diamond Storm or its secondary effect.
   2. Capitalizing off of Defense boosts.
   3. Allowing Diamond Storm to cover more of the opponent's options.
2. What abilities grant CAP31 more opportunities to use Diamond Storm over the course of the game?
3. Of the abilities that answer one or both of the previous questions, are there any that immediately distinguish CAP31 from other Grounds in the tier?

Abilities helping us cover special attackers, Urshifu-RS, and status are all incredibly valuable. Abilities such as the soft banned (but previously discussed) Water Absorb, blocking both powerful Hydro Pumps from pokemon like Tapu Fini, Dragapult, Steam Eruption from Volcanion, Scald from Slowking-Galar, Toxapex, Slowbro, and completely stonewalling pivot Krilowatt (free him). Imo, Dry Skin is just worse for switching into pokemon like Volcanion, Dragapult, and Slowking-Galar which all pack fire coverage, but is still notable as another Soft-banned ability that should not be excluded from this discussion. Water immunity abilities have been unbanned.

Poison Heal fits these criteria magnificently. After a defense boost, a lot of physical attackers could be completely stonewalled, knock-off does nearly nothing to stop this mon's longevity, and status would be completely removed from the picture. The main argument against Poison Heal is that it's just too damn powerful, which I can't say I disagree with. However, this could be anti-concept as CAP31 could possibly rather run Facade over Diamond Storm.

Mirror Armor allows CAP31 to hit Landorus-Therian without worrying about being Intimidated and losing crucial damage on a pokemon with nearly no recovery. Something I haven't seen mentioned yet is how a lot of physical attackers, at +2, are able to be subbed on. For example, with even the most minuscule amount of bulk, such as 80/80 uninvested, Defensive Landorus cannot earthquake to break your substitute with Earthquake while at -1 and you have a diamond storm boost. Neat interaction, possibly great in coupling with coverage to hit lando, toxic, recovery, etc.

Misty Surge simply removes the need to worry about Scald burns from mentioned bulky waters as well as status in general, such as toxic. Simple, but effective.

Defiant allows you to punish Landorus for attempting to sponge diamond storm, and punish defogs from Pokemon like Corviknight, Astrolotl, Landorus giving you a double boost (yikes), and Tornadus-T, punish the already unpopular Sticky Web, as well as Moves like Shadow Ball, Fire Lash, Moonblast, Flash Cannon, Bug Buzz, Psychic, Earth Power, Crunch, Liquidation (if you live), Mystical Fire, Thunderous Kick, and Play Rough, Icy Wind, and Bulldoze. Mirror Armor also benefits from the stat lowering, however it doesn't punish as hard.

Thick Fat gives a helping hand switching into fire types and ice types (thanks kunchi, that's what the ability does), which is nice switching in against heatran and weavile.

Natural Cure, Shed Skin, Immunity, Water Veil all give some sort of mitigation for status, all of which help with the common Toxic (except for water veil) and Scald burn (except for immunity).

Adaptability is also notable, forcing more switches into flying types due to a stronger Earthquake, but I feel as though it fails the litmus test of "If we switch DStorm and Stone Edge are we the same or only slightly worse". Same with Guts, Toxic Boost because they both make the mon too similar to Colossoil AND is anti-concept with Facade vying for a slot as well as Diamond Storm.

Serene Grace gives you a 100% chance to boost your Defense with Diamond Storm. Doesn't fix any problems with the mon and simply just makes it more annoying to fight, I guess. Same with Simple, but at least that makes it so that you probably won't get 2hko'd by anything physical in the tier. Doesn't fix anything though, and just seems like focusing into the wrong aspect of this mon's longevity.

Intimidate-Immunities such as Inner Focus and Own Tempo yep, they sure are. Blocks intimidate from Landorus but feels quite underwhelming otherwise.

Parental Bond is another banned ability that I want to mention. Without Seismic Toss, possible double boosting with Diamond Storm and making it even more powerful definitely fits the criteria of making diamond storm more useful. Power-up Punch is also quite powerful, but not as game breaking as Seismic Toss. Something people forget is that Parental Bond was nerfed in USUM, making the Boost 1.3x instead of 1.5x. In full honesty, I'd probably prefer this to Adaptability. My opinion is to unban this from the discussion, but note that Seismic toss and Power-up Punch are both incredibly strong.
F. Would have been p cool, but I totally agree with the ban reasoning.


Moxie has great synergy with Diamond Storm due to the attack boost in combination with defense boosts. Beast Boost could also boost Defense, or maybe even speed, with speed also being boosted by the very powerful Speed Boost, and the less powerful Rattled and Weak Armor which would be incredibly strong in combination with a boosting move like Swords Dance. Moxie can help CAP31 Snowball off of Defense Boosts and Attack boosts, making it difficult to deal with defensively and offensively. With even base 100 speed, there aren't many common special attackers that will both outspeed and OHKO CAP31 with serviceable bulk, and two on the same team are even less likely. Mostly just helps out CAP31 snowball teams without getting beaten down defensively or by faster special attackers.

Solid Rock / Filter are both similar to Moxie in which they both have synergy with Diamond Storm due to resisting super effective hits in combination with Diamond Storm's defense boost, allowing setup opportunities from CAP31 and finding more chances to overwhelm teams. Similar to Moxie, but less centered on breaking defensive teams, more breaking teams that can't deal with Edgequake coverage from a boosted CAP31.

My personal favorites:
-Water Absorb
-Misty Surge
-Mirror Armor
-Defiant
-Moxie
-Solid Rock/Filter

 

[Wulfanator]

What abilities give CAP31 greater incentive to click Diamond Storm, and in what ways?

Serene Grace is an obvious choice when trying to incentivize Diamond Storm. Guaranteeing the defense boost grants us additional flexibility for selecting the move in less-than-ideal match ups. Being able to click Diamond Storm once saves PP usage and means we can change matchups in an instant as opposed to banking on a RNG at the risk of it not activating.

In an effort to further deteriorate Darek’s mental health, I will unironically support discussion of Parental Bond. Much like Serene Grace, it increases the activation chance for a boost to 75% but provides a small chance for a double activation. If we want to focus on the defense boost element of our move, this complements it well. The additional hit the ability provides makes Diamond Storm comparable to strong coverage options like Close Combat and further removes it from direct comparisons to stone edge. If we want to go all in on edgequake 2-moive coverage, this elevates its potency. We would need to be aware of the fact that this option cuts into the remaining power budget of 31 more than other options, especially in stats.

Unaware is another option to consider for both offensive and defensive approaches. If the goal is to maintain our defensive boosts, Unaware prevents the opponent from setting up to out damage our defense boosts and each defense boost becomes substantially more threatening. It also allows us to target both forms of Venomicon better by ignoring Stamina and Coil defense boosts as well as gives us flexibility to check/counter other flying or electric set-up mons that are threatened by the combination of Ground STAB + Rock coverage.

Other than these abilities, I think the abilities that will benefit 31 the most are the ones that answer question 2.

 

[StarFalcon555]

Hello people of CAP, I have come to promote an ability that I have seen no one talking about, yet one that I think would be great on CAP31 considering its typing and move of choice, and that is Magnet Pull.

Yes, I know, I can hear the groans already. As a pure Ground type that wants to use a Rock-type move as its main mode of Attack, however, CAP31 could greatly benefit from Magnet Pull. Corviknight is going to be a major roadblock for this mon, being a Flying type that takes neutral damage from Diamond Storm and with great physical defense to boot. Magnet Pull will allow CAP31 to turn Corviknight from a somewhat solid counter into free set-up bait with Diamond Storm.

Another great upside to Magnet Pull is that a wide variety of prominent Steel-types in the CAP metagame are very weak to CAP31's Ground STAB. Heatran and Magnezone both fold to a 4xSE EQ, and Melmetal and Aegislash don't fare too well either, letting CAP 31 wipe the floor with them with ease.

The final point in favor of Magnet Pull is how it synergizes with Diamond Storm in helping CAP31 deal with Steel types that it may not be able to counter too well at first glance. Ferrothorn, Kartana, Cawmodore, and Scizor may seem like big roadblocks at first glance, but they all share one characteristic that CAP31 can take advantage of easily: they are all physical attackers or use physical attacks as their main mode of attack. Magnet Pull will thus allow CAP31 to turn these potential threats into setup bait and make them not so threatening after all.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk guys :3

In terms of already-discussed abilities, I like Defiant (synergizes well with Diamond Storm offensively and is a great anti-Lando tool), Mirror Armor (another great anti-Lando tool), and Thick Fat (another great anti-Heatran ability with the added bonus of deterring Weavile) the most, and am not the biggest fan of Serene Grace (way too obvious of an option and doesn't help against other mons) and Parental Bond (way too risky and very hard to balance).

 

[lezzy cuttlefish]

Going to discuss some abilities I think could be interesting choices that have had little to no discussion so far.

What abilities give CAP31 greater incentive to click Diamond Storm, and in what ways?

Shield Dust operates a little bit like water veil, misty surge, or water immunity in that it prevents us from getting burned off Scald - making us much less afraid of bulky waters, making DS a less risky option. While we could still get burned by other sources, it gives an odd suit of additional advantages - such as avoiding poison off gunk shot, the stat drop off shadow ball, or the def drop off astro.

Infiltrator gives a lot of extra utility to CAP31's damaging moves, and leans somewhat into the idea of "anti-offense" presented in CA 2. Infiltrator Diamond Storm would represent an easy super-effective answer to HO e-book or goltres behind screens, hits SD landorus through the substitute, and lets us wreck any flying types coming after we threaten out tapu-koko with EQ.


What abilities grant CAP31 more opportunities to use Diamond Storm over the course of the game?

Filter increases CAP31's longevity by reducing the damage from water and grass attacks. I've seen a lot of discussion around water immunity and grass immunity, so - failing those options - this could be a workable middle-ground.

Rattled (my personal favorite) has some very interesting applications. CAP31 could switch in to eat the omnipresent u-turns and knock-offs for its teammates, leveraging subsequent +1 speed to hit fast frail threats existing Ground types can't do much about. Some sort of mixed-attacker 31 could take intimidates for the team as well, potentially netting +2 speed off of lando-t and utilizing Diamond Storm for the defense boost in particular.


Of the abilities that answer one or both of the previous questions, are there any that immediately distinguish CAP31 from other Grounds in the tier?

The speed and anti-pivot qualities from rattled and the improved matchup vs bulky waters from shield dust both immediately set 31 distinctly apart from the likes of landorus-t and garchomp.

-

Other abilities I like but don't have much to say on that hasn't been said already are Misty Surge, Mirror Armor, Defiant and any of the water or grass immunity options.

 

[Unitas]

1.What abilities grant CAP31 more opportunities to use Diamond Storm over the course of the game?

I don't think the question should be how it is used over the course of the game, but rather how to make the most of Diamond Storm the turn/turns it is used.

Something important to keep in mind is the 8PP limit of Diamond Storm. When considering the base 50% chance to raise defense, I expect CAP31 to proc the secondary effect maybe 2-4 times total in a match. If we want to use these boosts effectively, we need CAP31 to be able to remain in battle for consecutive turns so that when we finally do raise our defense, we can actually use it. I think the best opportunities to use Diamond Storm will come late game when the landscape of the game is more known, and you can time your boosting turns well. Serene Grace and Parental Bond have been mentioned, and I understand the concern that it may be overpowered or lead to unintended consequences in the movepool. I have these concerns as well, but those two moves are the most guaranteed way to secure the +2 Defense boost.

Another way that we can "guarantee" a boost, is by using Diamond Storm a few (2-3) times in a row. To do this, we need some type of "bulk", as this concept has been mentioned by many others. Poison Heal is one way to do this. One ability that I like in this category that has not been mentioned is Marvel Scale. A 50% boost to Defense, on top of some Diamond Storm boosts can truly turn this CAP31 into a massive defensive wall with some nice kill power through EdgeQuake. Marvel Scale would also allow us to switch into offensive mons and get at least one Diamond Storm off. I like Shed Skin a lot more than Natural Cure. We want to stay in and use our boosts, we don't want to switch out and have wasted 2-3pp with nothing to show for it. With Shed Skin, we can stay in and have a good chance of getting out of some sticky situations.

One last way we can get a chance to use Diamond Storm multiple times in a row, is by abusing an advantageous switch in. Others have mentioned abilities in this category before, but it is important to contextualize them as a way to potentially click Diamond Storm two times, once while the opponent switches their Pokemon, or sacks them. Abilities like Moxie threaten Pokemon that would otherwise be sacked. +1 to Attack and +2 to Defense on a single turn is quite threatening. I like Rattled as well. Switching in and taking advantage of a +1 speed tier to then further boost +2 defense potentially is a pretty cool identity for a ground type.

Abilities that I do NOT like for the above reasons. The below abilities seem to act like "pivot" abilities to me, meaning we will be switching out a lot and not making use of the boosts. I may be wrong and would definitely welcome discussion on these.

• Water Absorb
• Thick Fat
• Filter
• Dry Skin

2.Of the abilities that answer one or both of the previous questions, are there any that immediately distinguish CAP31 from other Grounds in the tier?

Based on the above, I think my favorite way to distinguish from other grounds is not through acting as a defensive pivot like LandoT, but instead taking advantage of the lategame landscape and actually making use of it's stats boosts. I think the best options to do this are Moxie, Rattled, Parental Bond, Serene Grace (sketchy though for last two, would have to be careful).

Bottom line is that we need to be making use of these boosts. I just do not see that happening when there are still pokemon that are easy threats to you while unboosted. Moxie and Rattled specifically give us the chance to upset some match ups that we may normally be beat by.

 

[Brambane]

A couple of good abilities I forgot to mention in my post that are also worth discussing:

In terms of distinguishing ourselves from other Ground-types and increasing longevity, Comatose is quite good. Total status immunity is exceptional offensively and defensively. While we certainly do not require status immunity to function, it is a solid direction and this ability is roughly on par with Poison Heal. While you don't get the passive healing, you also don't have to run Toxic Orb, which is a massive boon if we push a more offensive direction, for access to items like Life Orb.

Parental Bond and Serene Grace are both similar in function, but Parental Bond's extra damage might make a little more sense since we are leaning offensive. The extra damage boost is quite nice. These moves, aside from the obvious synergy with Diamond Storm, I think open the door for some other offensive route; they are probably the best abilities out their for a mixed option since a lot of strong moves that benefit from these abilities are special attacks.

Analytic is a cool offensive ability. I don't think it has any implicit synergy with Diamond Storm itself, but it is quite good with Ground+Rock coverage. Having strong neutral coverage is the best way to utilize Analytic, even on a Pokemon that functions in an important utility role on a team (think Rapid Spin LO Analytic Starmie.) This one leans in more on the power of our offensive combination than the effect of Diamond Storm itself imo.

Lastly, and definitely not least, I want to (cautiously) bring up Magic Bounce. This ability is ridiculously good obviously. Being immune to Leech Seed? Excellent. Toxic and Will-O-Wisp? More excellent. Hazards? MOST EXCELLENT. This ability would 100% give CAP31 a unique identity, not even among the other Ground-types, but literally every other Pokemon currently in the metagame. This is an ability with both offensive and defensive applications. I think the main detractor to this ability is the fact its, well, Magic Bounce. This is one of those abilities that can be straight up unfun to play against; even if this CAP is like the perfect slate to test a powerful ability like this one (or Speed Boost, or Serene Grace, or...) this ability invokes a strong fear response. I would be interested in us seriously discussing the ability in the thread and its potential applications.

 

[Darek]

Hey everyone, discussion's looking great so far. Just wanted to make a quick post regarding the soft banned abilities:

Water Immunities have received plenty of support on both the thread and on Discord, and for good reason. It's definitely worthwhile to discuss, so consider these abilities unbanned and open for discussion.

Parental Bond on the other hand I'm more skeptical about. Flavor aside, we should note that the 1.25x power buff will inevitably be balanced around in the stats stage, so I wouldn't consider it much of a factor in selecting the ability. Thus this ability in my eyes is at best just Serene Grace with more variance, and for a healthy metagame, I find we ought to minimize hax as much as possible. Hence there isn't really a reason to choose Parental Bond, so I am banning it from future discussion in the thread.

Regenerator has been mentioned once so far but if it garners more support as the thread continues I may consider unbanning it. For now it remains soft banned.

Magic Bounce isn't even soft banned for whatever reason but I'm gonna ban it anyway. The ability is so clearly warping for the process and potentially unhealthy to play against. So yeah. No Magic Bounce.

That's it for now, expect more questions roughly 48 hours from my first post. Discussion's been fantastic so far, so keep it up!

 

[Me bad boi]

I will start with an ability I haven't seen so far.Plus it's not banned or soft banned, so hey. Unaware seems almost tailor-made for a mon that want to capitalise on boosts. It could allow CAP31 to really benefit from the +2 defense boost, since it becomes a lot harder to boost past (Kartana and Weavile are good examples). This ability really works for it to capitalize on boosts, but it might be limited on allowing it to switch in and use Diamond Storm.

To a lesser extent, stuff like Battle Armor cannot hurt, not getting crit through the boosts will always be nice, albeit boring.

So far, I like the other abilities mentionned! Except maybe Poison Heal, but not for lack of efficiency. In fact, it just feels like it's too good of an ability! Of course it's a great ability, it's poinson heal. I will say, however, that having a mon that replicates partially Gliscor's niche might be interesting, but also a double-edged sword if said Gliscor returns.

 

[ausma]

So, here comes the interesting part. I think these questions are solid but I'm gonna just talk about the abilities brought up mostly because I personally feel these questions have the potential play very closely into one another depending on the utility of the ability, in the sense that more opportunities to use Diamond Storm means more incentive to use the move, and vice versa.

Immunity abilities are a great example of this. Many people have talked, greatly, about abilities that focus on paving more opportunities for CAP 31 to accrue boosts or threaten progress through immunity abilities to augment the range of CAP 31's defensive matchups and Pokemon it can beat. These are certainly ones I'm a fan of, as they have the potential to greatly augment its great stand-alone defensive profile in tandem with STAB on our Ground-moves alongside Diamond Storm, giving it a much more defined defensive niche and, by extension, more turns to use Diamond Storm and build boosts in the first place.

The frequently mentioned Water Absorb and Dry Skin are heavily appealing options that synergize fantastically with CAP 31's mono-Ground typing, transforming some very detrimental matchups into things like Urshifu-R and Tapu Fini into opportunities to break holes or make progress, while giving it much more leverage to pivot into and take advantage of the highly threatening Scald from Pokemon it would otherwise beat consistently, such as Toxapex. Being a Ground-type with the untouched benefits of the Ground-type with the ability to not just pivot into, but beat Water-types, is already a gigantic niche over its relevant Ground-type competition, save for Gastrodon. While Dry Skin may make CAP 31's matchup into Heatran more dire and take away a positive attribute of its Ground typing, it does greatly and uniquely pair with Rain structures with the bonus of additional passive recovery, though that limitation could be worrisome on a game-to-game basis, and you could argue Water Absorb is already more than fine as an option if you want to use CAP 31 on rain. Though, overall, of the options that augment CAP 31's defensive profile, Water-immunity abilities are definitely my favorite and by far the most practical.

Sap Sipper is also an ability that operates somewhat similarly and greatly improves CAP 31's matchup against Leech Seed Ferrothorn and Kartana, though is much more limited in application. That being said, having a Ground-type with the ability to actively pressure Ferrothorn and pivot into Kartana much more consistently is actually immensely cool. I like this option more than I expected to, but its matchup dependency and Diamond Storm being low value into both of these threats leaves me unsure if it's an option that really helps bring the best out of Diamond Storm.

Thick Fat doesn't bring any immunities to the table, but does offer a Magma Storm resistance and a stronger matchup into Weavile and Arctozolt, which has some appeal, but I can't really say it'll be as helpful against Weavile as it might seem on paper. I don't really think Thick Fat does enough to really make that matchup feasible to win and only really delays the inevitable unless we have insane physical bulk and recovery due to just how insane Weavile's damage output is over the course of the game, especially since you're still neutral to Triple Axel; it's nice for Arctozolt and pivoting more into Heatran but that's about it, which makes it feel pretty dearth and uninteresting in potential applications.

Flash Fire is mainly good for Heatran and Will-O-Wisp shenanigans from Astrolotl, which could be quite neat and to an extent less situational than Sap Sipper since Heatran and Astrolotl are Pokemon that, on paper, you would realistically want to pivot into anyway, and the Will-O-Wisp immunity is genuinely great for punishing what's otherwise a pretty hard-to-punish Pokemon. Additionally, it also gives CAP 31 more realistic opportunities to click Diamond Storm in comparison to Sap Sipper. Not too much else to say, and it's not really a personal favorite either since it's pretty easy to design CAP 31 in part around beating Heatran 1v1 anyway.

Poison Heal is an incredibly popular option, and it's not hard to see why. Having not only a complete status immunity, but two rounds of Leftovers recovery in a single turn alongside packing a Stealth Rock resistance (unlike Snaelstrom's Stealth Rock weakness) is extremely, extremely promising. Unlike some people who think this could be broken, I really doubt it would be especially since we'd be choosing it in an early stage and could balance stats and move choices around it. Though, without a doubt it is a very strong contender in both the literal and figurative sense, just not my favorite since it feels like it covers a little too much ground. Immunity is a more toned down alternative that is cool as a way to let us gain boosts and not be forced out via Toxic, and in turn lets us focus on a more diverse forms of longevity and boosting that could, when paired with Poison Heal, push CAP 31 to potential brokenness. I see Immunity and Poison Heal as equally appealing options to balance CAP 31 around.

However, while these abilities are certainly practical, I really want to talk about some abilities I think are dynamic and could make for a more specialized process, but in turn trade some consistency.

There was some discussion about Defiant as an option, and it was one that I was intrigued by from the start. I think the benefits of it are immensely obvious: you pack a much stronger matchup into Landorus-T, while having the ability to take advantage of Defog from Pokemon that Diamond Storm naturally threatens. It doesn't come with any defensive applications, save for deterring Defog in and of itself, but offensively it is a superb option as a way to really augment CAP 31's damage output in a way that directly takes advantage of some less consistent matchups. This ability also takes advantage of Pokemon that Diamond Storm directly pressures: Defog users in Zapdos, Tornadus-T, and especially Landorus-T, which is very clear incentive to use the move in the first place. Defiant is a very explosive and effective option thus making it one I'm a fan of, for sure.

I'm also a monumental fan of Mirror Armor. Although it's more on the situational side, much like Flash Fire and Sap Sipper, being able to deflect Intimidate from Landorus-T (which is monumental), random Icy Wind from Tornadus-T, and Fire Lash from Astrolotl is really really cool, and is particularly of note because it provides very unique and genuinely phenomenal leverage to click Diamond Storm in all of these matchups, but through different, yet still greatly helpful mechanisms. Landorus-T being nearly omnipresent obviously is the main practical outline of this, dampening its Earthquake and in turn giving it regular-powered Diamond Storms to pressure it back with.

As for an original contribution, I'd also like to bring Rough Skin or Iron Barbs to the table. While Garchomp existing may make this seem like an obvious no, there are a couple cool things that CAP 31 has that makes it very distinct as a potential user of these abilities. For one, being able to have the option to passively dissuade Surging Strikes and Triple Axel, which are moves that you would want to use into a Ground-type, is really handy by itself. Though, I think the greatest and most distinctive appeal comes through Diamond Storm boosts, which not only improve CAP 31's contact move-tanking ability and giving us a way to passively and reliably punish Triple Axel while potentially keeping healthy/dishing out other forms of progress, but more interestingly, give CAP 31 the ability to very easily force damage against Surging Strikes Urshifu-R in the situation that it feels obligated to do so to break past Diamond Storm-boosted CAP 31. I think this could create for some super interesting interactions if you value further damage against Urshifu-R at the cost of CAP 31 fainting or being critically low. Even though it seems like it's stepping on Garchomp's niche, I do think Diamond Storm's boosts bolstering its tanking abilities and really letting it extract value from residual damage alongside CAP 31's lack of a Water-neutrality making it less consistent at taking Surging Strikes but still being able to punish it creates for an intrinsically different approach to these abilities, especially once we get to the stat and move stages where we could diversify the interaction further.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Figured I would bring up a couple of ability choices that aren't really being talked about right now, as a means to just put a couple more things into the spotlight.

Weak Armor:

Oddly enough, this ability actually synergizes with Diamond Storm really well. While it does suck to have to loose out on the Defense Boosts granted to us by Diamond Storm over time, being able to boost our speed with little to no consequence over the course of the game is an incredibly powerful tool (Given that we have at least decent luck, the defense drops from Weak Armor should for the most part be balanced out by the boosts from Diamond Storm). The big thing here really is that Diamond Storm would patch up the weakness to priority that Weak Armor would give us (Which is only made even more apparent given that we are weak to both Aqua Jet and Ice Shard, the two most common priority moves in the metagame right now). While I wouldn't really consider Weak Armor to be my favorite ability, I think it's actually surprisingly decent enough to warrant more discussion in my opinion.

Comatose:

Blocking all status is obviously incredibly powerful, while at the same time it's not quite as powerful as Poison Heal, which many users have expressed concern with in the thread, since it doesn't come with any sort of inherent recovery. Feels like this would be a good middle ground between abilities that can reliably block all of the status we need while at the same time not being insanely overpowered (Although I do acknowledge that Comatose is a pretty powerful ability in of itself).

Simple:

+4 Diamond Storm is obviously going to be very powerful, however I'm not sure how good this would be in practice. If we go with this ability, we are pretty much forfeiting our Lando match-up unless we give CAP31 Ice Beam or something, and even then you don't really want to be at -2 Attack at any point when at least one of your main attacks is physical.

 

[snake]

Moxie is my favorite abilities for this CAP, as it would allow CAP31 to snowball while protecting itself from priority with the Defense boosts from Diamond Storm. Although a Moxie sweeper that's weak to Weavile's Ice Shard, Urshifu-R's Aqua Jet, and Rillaboom's Grassy Glide might seem bad given that they hit CAP31 super effectively, I think it's a good way for a way for CAP31 to very usefully leverage the Defense boost from Diamond Storm while also maintaining offensive pressure.

As for status-related abilities, I think we're going to have to play very carefully with a Poison Heal CAP31's movepool, as having access to a very select group of moves could force Diamond Storm off of CAP31's movesets. That said, if those moves do not make it on CAP31's movepool, CAP31 could very easily use Diamond Storm in conjunction with Poison Heal very well. On the other hand, I think Shed Skin needs a little more attention. Although it's RNG reliant, a 33% chance to shrug off any status condition is potent and will give it an edge on other Ground-types that get crippled by Toxic.

I think Water Absorb should be considered too. Obviously, CAP31 would be better off with turning a weakness into an immunity, but I'm a bit unsure what it will do outside of that. Blanking Toxapex's Scald is probably the highlight for me, as Substitute could more likely block the rest of Toxapex's moves.

Serene Grace definitely leans into CAP31's Diamond Storm, but I'm just unsure how the rest of the Pokemon is built after that given that the only physical Ground-type move with a secondary effect is Bulldoze, which already lowers Speed 100% of the time. Does it have Serene Grace only for Diamond Storm? Do we address how almost physical moves with secondary effects are flinch moves? Does it run mixed sets to leverage more useful effects of Serene Grace?

 

[Korski]

I am getting whiplash from reading through the last thread and then seeing these abilities proposed here. How do you get from “nobody asked for another tanky Ground-type” to “let’s give it high attack stats and an A-tier defensive ability”? That describes every single Ground-type in the tier, just about! It was the right call to make sure the CAP isn’t competing for a slot against Landorus, Garchomp, Colossoil, Equilibra, Hippowdon, and Gastrodon, because there is nothing new in stock at the tanky Ground store, and the pressure you are putting on yourselves for the later stages of the project is insane and not worth it, imo, when you are trying to carve out a niche amongst this group.

Focusing the project on Diamond Storm is more than likely going to limit the movepool stage if anything but Serene Grace is selected, and it would be a good idea imho to plan for that. The move is really only a marginal upgrade to any generic Ground-type movepool, so after three interesting moves you are going to be threatening the goals of the concept (especially if CAP is a tank/wall build, Rock coverage is easy to drop). It might be smart to invest in a concrete offensive direction here in this stage instead, and I personally think going for an AoA (or one-turn setup) offensemon that applies mid-game pressure and/or end-game cleaning through passive boosting would be an excellent and much more interesting approach. I think Excadrill + sand would be the closest thing to this idea, otherwise the niche is pretty versatile and wide open. Speed Boost looks like a really good option, and it would prescribe a unique and conceptually synergistic direction for the remainder of the build while featuring a stats conversation that CAP has never had before (and that its members have literally formulated entire concept submissions around). Being weak to 3 common physical priority moves makes the +2 Def from Diamond Storm a potential game-changer if that’s your opponent’s last speed control or RKO option, and the guaranteed Speed boosts make it harder for opponents to punish you for fishing for the boosts in the first place. A win-win!

I think Serene Grace is another option that can both carry this move and distinguish the CAP from its stiff Ground-type competition, although I simply like Speed Boost more. Serene Grace is such a manipulative ability, and you can really have a lot of fun with it and get really clever with movepool choices. Diamond Storm is WELL supported by this ability, too, although I can’t really get too far into the other moves that would synergize best with this strategy (although they not too hard to figure out!). Opposite to Speed Boost, this ability would give us a more fulfilling movepool discussion and less compelling stats discussion, but the overall direction for both of these abilities is pro-concept, strong enough to support the build, and unique enough vs. the current metagame to earn players’ attention.

 

[pyuking muku]

I am getting whiplash from reading through the last thread and then seeing these abilities proposed here. How do you get from “nobody asked for another tanky Ground-type” to “let’s give it high attack stats and an A-tier defensive ability”? That describes every single Ground-type in the tier, just about! It was the right call to make sure the CAP isn’t competing for a slot against Landorus, Garchomp, Colossoil, Equilibra, Hippowdon, and Gastrodon, because there is nothing new in stock at the tanky Ground store, and the pressure you are putting on yourselves for the later stages of the project is insane and not worth it, imo, when you are trying to carve out a niche amongst this group.

I’d like to respond to this sentiment. While it’s true that we’re considering many fairly nuclear options with Poison Heal and Water Absorb, the problem is that we want to make a Ground type that can compete with these mons for viability, and some of these mons can also run offensive sets. Lando can be lead SR or offensive SD as well as pivot. Chomp mostly runs a double dance set with Scale Shot. Colossoil can wallbreak with Flame Orb and Guts. By giving PHeal or an immunity, we allow CAP31 to operate in a role that none of these do (except I guess Gastrodong, but he’s about as offensive as a wet wad of paper).

I personally think that some of the best options we have are Mirror Armor and especially Defiant. These abilities give us the significant niche of being a Ground type with a positive Lando matchup. That alone is quite good. MA allows us to do great into Astro and give us accurate DStorms off of reflected Defog. Defiant kicks it up a notch by increasing our offensive presence as well as all of the above.

One ability I’d like to suggest, though it sounds a bit weird, is Storm Drain. Gastro 2.0!! This ability retains the Water immunity without being as “nuclear” as WA. It can also provide, depending on stats, potential for mixed sets. It’s a bit more unusual and niche, but still provides that same utility of WA without being so powerful.