CAP 31 - Part 7 - Stat Limits Discussion

[quziel]

CAP 31 So Far

Good Day,

We just concluded the defining moves stage lead by Rabia with the following conclusions:

Here's the final defining moves list:

Required Moves: Diamond Storm, Earthquake
Optional Moves: One of (Milk Drink/Soft-Boiled/Recover/Slack Off), Pain Split, Grass-type coverage, special Fire-type coverage, Taunt, Thunder Wave, one of (Swords Dance/Dragon Dance/Shift Gear), Rapid Spin

Rapid Spin was added because of a bit of increased support at the end and its synergy with Swords Dance being potentially interesting. It's an overall small chain move but has notable application in a metagame where Spikes are so abundant.

Earth Power also was removed because discussions about special sets got a bit too much, and those would certainly take away from Diamond Storm's practicality. I also removed High Horsepower because for all intents and purposes, Earthquake is superior and what people will be doing damage calcs with anyway.

Tagging SHSP for a final lookover and Wulfanator so he's aware this is done. Thank you all for making this stage go so smoothly!

Now let's look towards Wulfanator and Stat Limits! Thank you all once more for your continued participation.


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This next stage is Stat Limits, and it's very important! Our Stats Leader, who will be leading this stage, is Wulfanator , so make sure that your posts are generally directed towards him and the questions he asks. Spoo will be deciding the stat limits for CAP 29 at the conclusion of this thread, based on community input. This is NOT the place where we actually submit stats. That will come later.

These limits will help to define what we consider when making and talking about stat spreads for CAP 29. We will look at limits to CAP 29's physical and special attacking prowess, its physical and special tanking capabilities, and the overall power of its stats.

This is a relatively tricky stage of the process if you're not familiar with what it is we're doing and why we're doing it. For that reason, we strongly encourage those who intend to participate to read the entire OP thoroughly and ask questions where needed.

Please do not poll jump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities.

Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. The Stats Leader will decide the stat limits for the CAP upon the conclusion of this thread.

Stat Bias Limits

Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be constrained by Stat Bias Limits. There will be three stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:

Physical Tankiness (PT)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.

Special Tankiness (ST)

The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.

Sweepiness (S)

The rating of the Pokémon's offenses. This can be divided into Physical Sweepiness and Special Sweepiness.

Physical Sweepiness (S)

The rating of the Pokémon's Physical offense

Special Sweepiness (S)

The rating of the Pokémon's Special offense

A preliminary spreadsheet for calculating the ratings can be found here (note, this will be updated soon). To use it for yourself, create an editable copy with File > Make a copy. If you don't have a spreadsheet program, OpenOffice and Google Sheets are free.

If you're a newer member of CAP, we highly recommend that you do some good lurking during this stage in the process. Read this page thoroughly to understand what exactly we're doing here. If you're still confused, check out some of the old Stat Limits Discussion threads for past CAPs in the CAP Process Archive. If you're still uncomfortable with posting here, then we suggest you watch how experienced users post; you can learn a lot from them!


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As a reminder, the BSR calculations were changed after CAP 28 / before CAP 29, so please familiarize yourself with the changes here. Major changes include a renormalization of the BSR itself to more closely match BST, and the change to a single Sweepiness limit that incorporates both a Pokemon's Attack and Special Attack stats.

 

[Wulfanator]

I’m back, nerds! It is once again time to pick the funny numbers. I hope you are all ready to help me parse through the information we have and build dynamic limits that reflect the community’s desires while also accounting for the various nuances of each optional move. For the unacquainted, please be sure to read the OP above to familiarize yourself with what exactly this stage will entail. You will also be able to find a copy of the defining moves list included in the OP for easy reference.

Take some time to answer the following:

1. Our concept is focused on a non-STAB move with low PP and a 50% chance to boost CAP 31’s defense. What limits should we be prioritizing to best enable Diamond Storm in our moveset?

2. Given our focus on Diamond Storm this project, it seems intuitive that CAP 31 wants to be physically biased. That being said, optional special fire-type coverage was included in our list of defining moves. How might this impact the importance of our special sweepiness limit compared to physical sweepiness?

3. In Concept Assessment 2, we established that an offensive chassis was a strong path the pursue with our concept. While not mandated specifically, there is still a clear desire given the inclusion of optional setup. How exactly should we be offensively inclined? How do our optional moves influence our offensive nature? Consider using existing Pokemon as examples.

4. With Diamond Storm’s chance to boost defense, how ought we prioritize our defenses? What key defensive benchmarks should CAP 31 be guaranteed to meet regardless of submission or boost? How should we leverage the +2 defense boost if we activate it? How might optional moves restrict CAP 31’s bulk?

5. Given the flexibility of our C&C list, are there any mons we should strive to preserve as checks/counters from that discussion?

Edit: It should go without saying that users should refrain from suggesting limits or specific stats at this time.

 

[Zetalz]

incoming rushed post before I gotta pack up

1. Our concept is focused on a non-STAB move with low PP and a 50% chance to boost CAP 31’s defense. What limits should we be prioritizing to best enable Diamond Storm in our moveset?

2. Given our focus on Diamond Storm this project, it seems intuitive that CAP 31 wants to be physically biased. That being said, optional special fire-type coverage was included in our list of defining moves. How might this impact the importance of our special sweepiness limit compared to physical sweepiness?

1. Considering the competition CAP 31 is going up against I think we are a comfortable position to be quite generous with our limits and BSR as a baseline, and tighten them as optional moves are added on based on their impact. To make a good Diamond Storm user honestly you only need a strong Attack stat (or at least above average with set-up), so there's a fair amount of room to pursue faster offensive spreads or bulkier mid-range spreads. Physical Sweepiness should be fairly high with both Tankiness stats allowing a solid degree of flexibility.

2. Special Sweepiness is the odd one out, realistically you don't need barely any SpA for special fire-coverage to get reliable 2hkos on a couple of the mons Fire coverage is wanted for, but if you want to push it hit the significantly bulkier targets you have to push it way higher to be reliable. As I said I am in favor of being generous with BSR as a baseline but tbh I think pushing Special Sweepiness is just going to cause a bit too much strain on PS and overall BSR to be worth it. Mixed or special attacking spreads are not the priority for 31.

3. In Concept Assessment 2, we established that an offensive chassis was a strong path the pursue with our concept. While not mandated specifically, there is still a clear desire given the inclusion of optional setup. How exactly should we be offensively inclined? How do our optional moves influence our offensive nature? Consider using existing Pokemon as examples.

4. With Diamond Storm’s chance to boost defense, how ought we prioritize our defenses? What key defensive benchmarks should CAP 31 be guaranteed to meet regardless of submission or boost? How should we leverage the +2 defense boost if we activate it? How might optional moves restrict CAP 31’s bulk?

3. Our optional moves do influence our build to a fair degree. Boosting moves will demand specific checks and balances to PS, which amongst themselves will have a variable impact on limits, something like DD or especially Shift Gear would likely have to run a much tighter BSR. Utility moves can also dictate stat direction, but more so when in certain combos (ex Chomper can get away with huge atk SD + good bulk since it lacks recovery and thus isn't difficult to break, but 31 with a similar build +recovery +taunt could become yikes). The best course I feel is to bottleneck BSR based on high-impact inclusions or combos of inclusions so as to reduce impact on our important PS stat as much as possible.

4. Diamond Storms defense boost allows for a degree of flexibility with tankiness, there is value in both doubling-down on Defense to get more value out of less Dstorm boosts as well as shoring up SpDef and relying more on boosts to tank on the physical side of things. What it really comes down to is personal preference of what you want checked harder. Big talking points have been things like Lando, Zera, Koko or Torn/Zapper and being able to stomach switching in to at least a few of them consistently. Personally comfortably switching into Zera and or Koko most of the time is the only mandate I'd put on submissions, which aren't particularly difficult to meet regardless of limitations barring a critical mass of high-impact optionals (something like DD+recovery+utility galore).

5. Given the flexibility of our C&C list, are there any mons we should strive to preserve as checks/counters from that discussion?

Haven't thought about this one a ton, think we can afford to play it by ear for the most part considering how every build is going to vary in what naturally pressures it. Guess the only thing I could comment on is Lele should be forcing 31 out (-speed boosting) almost every time because holy god I don't want to live in a metagame where a non-resist eats Lele for breakfast.

 

[shnowshner]

Given our focus on Diamond Storm this project, it seems intuitive that CAP 31 wants to be physically biased. That being said, optional special fire-type coverage was included in our list of defining moves. How might this impact the importance of our special sweepiness limit compared to physical sweepiness?

I really quick want to say that special Fire coverage is likely to be the only real Special coverage we get, and moreover is mostly a targeted tech option for various problem match-ups, the biggest being Ferrothorn, Buzzwole, and Equilibra. Each is vulnerable to said coverage in a different way: Ferro's typing leaves it quad-weak to Fire, Buzz has poor Special Defense it rarely invests significantly into, and Libra is quite prone to getting chipped + takes effectively nothing from our primary offensive combo anyhow. Also worth mentioning is that none of them are particularly fast: Buzzwole has the highest Speed at a soundly mediocre 79, and since it usually is run with a defensive set can be easily outpaced even with a lower Speed stat.

I feel like our Special Sweepiness doesn't need to be terribly high to make progress against these three given their limitations and/or other weaknesses (i.e. SpDef Ferro can probably tank 2 Fire Blasts/Overheats but it being so slow makes it easier for a teammate to clean up, or it simply falls to prior chip or hazard stacking, not to mention needing to be the SpDef variant). To answer the question in full, I don't feel like we need to raise our Special Sweepiness limit very high in order for Special Fire coverage to ensure a place on our kit, as simply having such a move is already giving us an advantage over certain threats regardless of if our Special Attack stat is above- or below-average.

So that this post has a little more substance to it (a bit too early for me to feel the discussion itch yet) here's a quick refresh of the Switch-ins + C&C we had decided on.

Switch Ins:

Pressures:

C&C:

Note that Special Fire coverage is hitting all four of our C&C list, but it still remains optional and Corv is very likely to not give a damn about it anyhow. Opting for stronger Fire coverage is also inherently riskier due to accuracy so I feel these can remain as such even with us having a way to hit them SE.

 

[Amamama]

Our concept is focused on a non-STAB move with low PP and a 50% chance to boost CAP 31’s defense. What limits should we be prioritizing to best enable Diamond Storm in our moveset?

We want to use diamon Storm effectively, which means we should be hitting fairly hard to ensure we make the most of the limited pp that it has.
To ensure that faster spreads still can hit hard with this non stab move, I think the PS should be fairly high, especially considering that CAP31s competition in Lando-T and Garchomp both have really high PS stats (140 and 138) and even mons like Colossoil and Excadrill (kinda irrelevant I guess) sit comfortably at around 125.
Looking at what we concluded with in threats I think we should have some wiggle room for both defensive limits as well, to allow bulky spreads that reliably can check mons like Zeraora, Koko or even Zapdos.
In general I think we need to be open to make this Mon a stat stick, considering how strong the spreads of its main competitors are.

In Concept Assessment 2, we established that an offensive chassis was a strong path the pursue with our concept. While not mandated specifically, there is still a clear desire given the inclusion of optional setup. How exactly should we be offensively inclined? How do our optional moves influence our offensive nature? Consider using existing Pokemon as examples.

Tbh the range we could fall in is stupidly large.
I legit can see anything from Melmetal, to physical Equilibra, to Buzzwole, to Dragonite, to Landorus, to Garchomp, to Cobalion and even Zeraora style builds, all working and all working differently.
I definitely think there’s a threshold of atk, below which CAP31 will absolutely need boosting and probably also recovery to allow it to set up over several turns, which is being able to 2hko Toxapex unboosted. (108 Atk with max investment neutral nature).

Other than that A move like taunt appreciates speed, while set up moves need the power or bulk to force switches to create set up turns.
Recovery and stealth rock can function on any form of spreads although I think that the faster the spread the less room and need is for recovery.

With Diamond Storm’s chance to boost defense, how ought we prioritize our defenses? What key defensive benchmarks should CAP 31 be guaranteed to meet regardless of submission or boost? How should we leverage the +2 defense boost if we activate it? How might optional moves restrict CAP 31’s bulk?

I think we should be open to physically and specially defensive spreads in any shape, although tbh the lowest physical defense we should realistically be looking at is having enough bulk to not be 2hkoed by Zeras Close Combat (taking into account realistic EV spreads)(unless we’re faster).
I think that cool benchmarks to hit for defenses after a boost are being able to keep a sub against lando, not being ohkoed by non Band Kartana, not being ohkoed by Weaviles Tripple axel, being able to keep a sub against Ferros Power Whip on spreads that invest in defenses.
I don’t think optional moves really impact our bulk. The only thing I don’t think is good, is if cap 31 is so bulky with recovery, that its game plan moves from hitting fast and hard - which favors Dstorms low PP - to stalling out the opponent, in which case it’s fairly likely that a low PP move like Dstorm is dropped.

 

[Brown4Sides]

1. Our concept is focused on a non-STAB move with low PP and a 50% chance to boost CAP 31’s defense. What limits should we be prioritizing to best enable Diamond Storm in our moveset?

Physical Sweepiness I believe is the most important limit. Diamond Storm is impacted by this limit the most since it dictates how hard Diamond Storm will hit. Special Tankiness could potentially have good synergy with Diamond Storm's defense boosts, though I don't think it's as important/necessary as Physical Sweepiness.

2. Given our focus on Diamond Storm this project, it seems intuitive that CAP 31 wants to be physically biased. That being said, optional special fire-type coverage was included in our list of defining moves. How might this impact the importance of our special sweepiness limit compared to physical sweepiness?

I do not believe our special sweepiness limited will be too heavily impacted if we decide to run special Fire coverage. Ferrothorn is one of the best, if not the best defensive Pokemon in the current metagame, and considering it takes a whopping 440 damage from Fire Blast and 520 damage from Overheat, we will not need a high special sweepiness for special Fire coverage to be worth running. Garchomp, for instance, has historically been able to viably run Fire Blast off of a 80 base Sp. Attack stat. And you can go even lower than that and still be able to 2HKO Ferrothorn with special Fire coverage. I'm not saying we need to, but we also don't need to make special sweepiness a heavy factor.

4. With Diamond Storm’s chance to boost defense, how ought we prioritize our defenses? What key defensive benchmarks should CAP 31 be guaranteed to meet regardless of submission or boost? How should we leverage the +2 defense boost if we activate it? How might optional moves restrict CAP 31’s bulk?

Zeraora I think is the biggest defensive benchmark we need to keep in mind, it was regarded as one of the most important things we should be able to switch into during Threats, Tapu Koko is up there too. I don't think any of the optional moves would restrict its bulk, as a good chunk of them are offensively inclined. MAYBE 50% recovery could create some restriction, but even that I am not too worried about.

5. Given the flexibility of our C&C list, are there any mons we should strive to preserve as checks/counters from that discussion?

Despite Landorus-Therian being labeled as pressure, I think there is value in leaving it as a check, none of our defining optional moves really threaten it aside from Taunt and Recovery. Everything in C&C I wouldn't mind staying as C&C, though Equilibra especially, as it is not 4x weak to Fire and is the only Pokemon in C&C to be able to attack it from the special spectrum. Ferrothorn I think is the least important to preserve as C&C, given that 4x fire coverage is being thrown around as a possibility, though I wouldn't mind if we somehow came out of this with Ferrothorn as an answer to CAP 31.

I've mentioned Landorus-Therian and Ground immune/neutral Steels. We have the tools in our optional kit to blow through all of these, though I think it's important that we don't. At least 2 of the 5 Pokemon I mentioned should remain C&C, I think that Landorus-Therian and Equilibra are probably the most important ones we should be beat by, and Ferrothorn is the least important.

 

[Brambane]

4. With Diamond Storm’s chance to boost defense, how ought we prioritize our defenses? What key defensive benchmarks should CAP 31 be guaranteed to meet regardless of submission or boost? How should we leverage the +2 defense boost if we activate it? How might optional moves restrict CAP 31’s bulk?

All the below is assuming you aren't pursuing a spread focusing on high Speed and Attack as a boosting sweeper, and instead a spread more in-line with what defensive Garchomp or Lando-T do in the current meta. This all is more applicable to a tank build for CAP31.

One of the roles that some bulky Ground-types (mostly Garchomp) have in teambuilding is switching into Heatran. I think the key special defense benchmarks could be based around Heatran at minimum, specifically Balloon Eruption since that is going to be the strongest set you see with any regularity.

EDIT:
Playing around with the calculator, the best option to do this without absolutely inflating special bulk to insane amounts or forcing CAP31 into heavy SpDef investment is by making sure CAP31 always outspeeds Heatran, as it can weaken Eruption and pop Balloon simulataneously with Diamond Storm after switching in.

I also think that making CAP31 bulky enough to eat Zapdos Hurricanes has serious merit, which is where there is overlapping value with making 31 bulky enough to tank Heatran Eruptions; if you can answer the most powerful Tran in the format, you will also answer offensive Zapdos.

The benchmark for physical bulk should probably be Zeraora unboosted; I would go as far to say we should not be 2HKOed by CC after 1 layer of Spikes + SR imo, or OHKOed by +1 CC after 1 layer of Spikes and SR. That is pretty specific, but making CAP31 an offensive Ground-type that can switch into Zera repeatedly is where we hit that sweet spot between threatening and reliable. It doesn't take much bulk to eat 2 Zera CCs, especially if your spread wants to invest in HP. For +2 boosts, if you are bulky enough PP stall CB Urshifu's CC with Recover (or KO with EQ after CC Defense drop) or live a Weavile Triple Axel and KO with Diamond Storm, that seems like mission accomplished. Note that Weav's Axel is roughly the same power as Kartana's Leaf Blade; Axel is like 2% weaker.

I don't recovery alone limits our bulk, but I would be careful about Recovery + DD/Shift Gear. Bulky boosting with Speed can be incredibly dangerous as mons like Dnite and moves like Quiver Dance have shown in the past. I think if you are combining recovery and DD/Shift Gear, you need to exercise some restraint since its easy to abuse BSR with lower Speed stats and high bulk. This is doubly true for Shift Gear, where you can drop Speed super low and still outspeed threats like Torn-T at +2.

 

[Agile Turtle]

Our optional defining moves list is fairly large and if we're being honest, not every stat spread is going to be designed with every option in mind, and that should be okay. Not every spread will be designed for swords dance or even dragon dance, and not every stat spread will be designed with recovery in mind. The stat limits should definitely be very flexible, with a lower (but honestly still pretty high) overall BSR to "bottleneck" it, as Zetalz said. Overall stat limits should be pretty high for PS/PT/ST, with a bias for Physical Sweepiness. This CAP could still very well go any which way with stats, and I'm excited to see it.

to address questions 2 & 5 in short, I don't think a super bulky mon like Equilibra is a realistic goal to beat with uninvested attacking stats, and it's honestly fine (and probably for the better) if it stays a counter to CAP 31. But it's reasonable to expect fire coverage to work on a 4x weak mon like ferrothorn. Special Sweepiness should be high enough to allow a faster stat spread to net the 2HKO on ferrothorn uninvested.

 

[dex]

1.
A surefire way to make coverage worth using outside of its general spread is having it be powerful. Hitting super effectively is one thing, but meaningfully pressuring the designated targets of Diamond Storm is a huge deal, especially in the face of Tornadus-T, which might stay in to use Knock Off to generate progress or Hurricane to accrue chip if a KO is not threatened. There is also something to be said for high Speed; a number of the targets of Diamond Storm, like Weavile, are quite fast. While outspeeding CAP's resident Speed demons is not necessary, there is something to be said for it. Accordingly, I think the PS limit is going to need to be quite high in order to fully encourage the use of Diamond Storm as an offensive weapon.

2.
I can see SS being allowed to be somewhat high due to the overall bulkiness of the Steel-types Fire-type coverage attempts to pressure. I do think some overall limit should be put in place with regards to total Sweepiness due to how Ground and Fire complement each other as coverage types so that Fire-type coverage does not overtake Diamond Storm for a moveslot.

3.
I think there are a lot of ways to be offensively inclined here, it is quite open-ended. Recovery obviously lends itself to a more tanky build, while Taunt is just generally useful in tons of ways. With regards to recovery, I could see something akin to 3 attacks Life Orb Latios in previous generations, which using high offenses and Speed and passable bulk to wallbreak consistently. Slower, tankier options are also valid; Swords Dance Gliscor is an example I think is valid here, running Earthquake + Coverage and using its longevity to stick around for the long haul. Taunt fits on a number of builds, but I think it does imply a certain level of Speed. If you look at Heatran, which uses Taunt to trap, it possesses great bulk and Special Attack, but it has just enough Speed to really make Taunt work. Another example here is Taunt Tornadus-T, using its Speed to prevent the opponent from using utility moves. All in all, I think our options are super open right now, and the optional moves we have to play with can be applied in any number of ways.

4.
I think this comes down to what you want CAP 31 to do. Strangely, I think builds that are more angled towards the tank role should prioritize Special Defense to be difficult to take out without being too difficult to check. On the flip side, more offensive builds would prioritize physical Defense, preventing revenge killers like Kartana and Weavile from doing their thing even when chipped. I do want to note that attempting to tank two Heatran Eruptions is way too limiting. Switching in to Heatran Eruption is hard enough even when a Pokemon resists it. I think tanking one Eruption uninvested is totally fair, as that all but ensures the 1v1 win, but 2 seems a bit too lofty.

5.
Preserving Corviknight and Equilibra as checks is imperative. Even with special Fire-type coverage, Corviknight should be able to comfortably switch-in and U-turn out and Equilibra should be able to pressure CAP 31 with Doom Desire and Pain Split. The rest of the field, however, I think is fair game. Taunt shuts down Landorus-T if CAP 31 outspeeds it, which really is not too difficult to accomplish. Recovery + Taunt is huge in the face of Ferrothorn, which has to rely on inaccurate Power Whip to even pressure CAP 31. There are means of dealing with a number of mons that could theoretically check CAP 31, but I do think that preserving Libra and Corv would be a good limit.

 

[Tommaniacal]

Given how fat most OU flying types are, and how Diamond Storm patches up Ground's inability to hit Flying, I believe our PS limit should be high enough for us to reliably threaten them with Diamond Storm. If we don't deal high enough damage Flying types can sit in on 31 and click a combination of Hurricane/Roost/Defog/Whirlwind. This ultimately would encourage us just switching out rather than actually using Diamond Storm. I can't say as of this moment what exactly threatening means, whether a 3hko or 2hko on notable flying types, but I'm sure there are those much more qualified than me to make that distinction.

Diamond Storm provides us a unique opportunity to boost our PT over time, so I'm of the opinion that our ST limit should be higher than our PT limit. This allows us to use Diamond Storm both for offense and defense. Of course our PT limit doesn't need to be outright bad, but it shouldn't be so massive that we don't need to consider Diamond Storm boosts at all.

SS gives us an option to bonk Steel types on their (typically) lower Special Defense. As others have said though, we don't want SS to be so high that fire coverage outcompetes Diamond Storm. As a general rule of thumb SS should not be higher than PS. It should also be low enough that Corviknight and Equilibra are still able to check 31.

 

[boo836]

1. Our concept is focused on a non-STAB move with low PP and a 50% chance to boost CAP 31’s defense. What limits should we be prioritizing to best enable Diamond Storm in our moveset?


We should be treating Diamond Storm as a more accurate Stone Edge. 50% is not reliable enough to form a coherent role around. We are forced to take on an offensive role because of it.

2. Given our focus on Diamond Storm this project, it seems intuitive that CAP 31 wants to be physically biased. That being said, optional special fire-type coverage was included in our list of defining moves. How might this impact the importance of our special sweepiness limit compared to physical sweepiness?

It shouldn't. Special fire coverage is really weird without >80 Special Attack because you don't 2hko Ferrothorn with Flamethrower or 3hko Equilibra/Corviknight. The only reason to use special Fire coverage is Kartana, which is OHKO'd by Flamethrower from anything >31 SpAtt. Unless we are prepared to dump a lot of stat points into Special Attack to threaten two counters, we should maintain a strong bias for physical sweepiness. I just don't think there's really much use for Special Fire coverage otherwise.


3. In Concept Assessment 2, we established that an offensive chassis was a strong path the pursue with our concept. While not mandated specifically, there is still a clear desire given the inclusion of optional setup. How exactly should we be offensively inclined? How do our optional moves influence our offensive nature? Consider using existing Pokemon as examples.

Taunt is probably the most important optional move, and it requires outspeeding the opponent's defensive Pokemon to really work. Our inclination should be towards a somewhat faster offensive Pokemon and away from a classic tank build like Rhyperior or Tyranitar. With Taunt and enough speed, CAP31 has the potential to take on a stallbreaker role.


4. With Diamond Storm’s chance to boost defense, how ought we prioritize our defenses? What key defensive benchmarks should CAP 31 be guaranteed to meet regardless of submission or boost? How should we leverage the +2 defense boost if we activate it? How might optional moves restrict CAP 31’s bulk?

We should prioritise physical defence and leave special defense to be a weakness for balancing purposes. The +2 boosting is a sort of lategame option that can snowball into a win condition if the opponent lacks special attackers.

5. Given the flexibility of our C&C list, are there any mons we should strive to preserve as checks/counters from that discussion?

Mew would be a strong check that we should consider keeping. I'm against letting CAP31 outspeed Mew if we let CAP31 have Swords Dance, because otherwise it may be too difficult to check well.

I'm also going to say that if we're going to run into conflicts at this stage between our goal of checking Urshifu well and wanting to optimise Diamond Storm, unless we are prepared to give CAP31 a really wonky spread that is heavily biased towards physical defence. I think we should give up pursuing that role if we want to keep our options open.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

We should be treating Diamond Storm as a more accurate Stone Edge. 50% is not reliable enough to form a coherent role around. We are forced to take on an offensive role because of it.

Um, what?

50% is a very reliable chance, especially if we can use the move multiple times (We don't really need to for the move to get its secondary effect off with some consistency, but it helps). I'm at work right now so I don't really have too much time to explain what this means mathematically (Which I kinda wanted to), so for now I will just put it into layman's terms and say your chance of getting the boost goes up quite a bit after each time you use it. Plus, even if this wasn't true, I don't see how that would necessarily force us into a defensive role. There are a good number of bulky grounds out there that would appreciate a more accurate Stone Edge to pressure Flying types easier.

Mew would be a strong check that we should consider keeping. I'm against letting CAP31 outspeed Mew if we let CAP31 have Swords Dance, because otherwise it may be too difficult to check well.

I'm also going to say that if we're going to run into conflicts at this stage between our goal of checking Urshifu well and wanting to optimise Diamond Storm, unless we are prepared to give CAP31 a really wonky spread that is heavily biased towards physical defence. I think we should give up pursuing that role if we want to keep our options open.

Mew doesn't really stand out to me as a very notable check, and outside of the case of Demon Mew, really a check at all if I am being quite honest, and I fail too see why outspeeding it would be a problem.

 

[psy666]

Um, what?

50% is a very reliable chance, especially if we can use the move multiple times (We don't really need to for the move to get its secondary effect off with some consistency, but it helps). I'm at work right now so I don't really have too much time to explain what this means mathematically (Which I kinda wanted to), so for now I will just put it into layman's terms and say your chance of getting the boost goes up quite a bit after each time you use it. Plus, even if this wasn't true, I don't see how that would necessarily force us into a defensive role. There are a good number of bulky grounds out there that would appreciate a more accurate Stone Edge to pressure Flying types easier.



Mew doesn't really stand out to me as a very notable check, and outside of the case of Demon Mew, really a check at all if I am being quite honest, and I fail too see why outspeeding it would be a problem.

So, maths to follow here is:

1 turn = 50%

2 turn = 50% (activated turn 1) + 50% x 50% (activated only on turn 2) = 50% + 25% = 75%

3 turn = 50% + 50% x 50% + 50% x 50% x 50% = 50% + 25% + 12.5 = 87.5%

4 turn = 50% + 25% + 12.5% + 6.25 % = 93.75%
5 turn = 96.875%
6 turn = 98. 4375%
7 turn= 99.21875%
8 turn= 99. 609375%

So, 3 turns equated roughly to the accuracy of Fire Blast and 4 turns is near equal to the accuracy of Diamond Storm itself so yeah I guess the +2 Defense boost is fairly consistent.

 

[Agile Turtle]

We should be treating Diamond Storm as a more accurate Stone Edge. 50% is not reliable enough to form a coherent role around. We are forced to take on an offensive role because of it.

Um, what?

50% is a very reliable chance, especially if we can use the move multiple times (We don't really need to for the move to get its secondary effect off with some consistency, but it helps). I'm at work right now so I don't really have too much time to explain what this means mathematically (Which I kinda wanted to), so for now I will just put it into layman's terms and say your chance of getting the boost goes up quite a bit after each time you use it. Plus, even if this wasn't true, I don't see how that would necessarily force us into a defensive role. There are a good number of bulky grounds out there that would appreciate a more accurate Stone Edge to pressure Flying types easier.

this is a good line of discussion to have right now. The caution around diamond storm only having a 50% chance to boost defense is warranted, and it's a boost we shouldn't rely on for CAP31 to function, but it's a boost we SHOULD design around. A faster frailer CAP31 would appreciate the boost for its added bulk, but would still be a great offensive mon even without the boost. A slower bulkier CAP31 would appreciate that it can take more hits, but it could still take hits without the boost. Now we've potentially got recovery on this thing, and when you factor recovery in, it's much easier to imagine getting that (or multiple) defense boost(s). Even if that recovery is pain split instead of something more reliable.

I've been imagining this mon frailer on the special side up until this point, but I see others have the idea that taking 2 eruptions from a mon with 130 base attack is necessary. Now it's a pretty specific target and will take a lot of dedicated stat budget to manage, but I don't think it is an entirely crazy direction to take this mon. The defense boosts could synergize well with 31's naturally large special bulk. I do want caution though, it will take a LOT of special bulk to manage this. Sacrifices would have to be made elsewhere in the stats/movepool. We've done this before, with malaconda. Asking a mon to take 2 unresisted STAB attacks with massive power from a mon with 130 base special attack IS a lot to ask. Heatran is a mon that often runs speed investment, and asking a mon to both outspeed it AND take 2 eruptions from it (even if the second one is weaker by whatever amount) is pretty specific. I think it's okay if Heatran and CAP 31 don't interact. If in the end Heatran probably isn't switching into 31 and 31 is probably not switching into Heatran, I'd be perfectly fine with that. But if a Heatran answer is something ppl want to make this into, it could be done.

edit: in doing my own calculations and fiddlings, I think it's also worth cautioning that whatever set you have in mind for a CAP 31 to be able to both outspeed heatran and take 2 eruptions from is, is probably not the set CAP will end up using were it to get those stats (whether CAP is sitting at 78 speed at 252+ or 122 speed at 0 EVs and a neutral nature or something in between). It's looking to be too much dedication for what it's worth.

As a general rule of thumb SS should not be higher than PT.

I have to argue against this (and this conflation of putting limits on a sweepiness rating based on a tankiness rating in general), because it would limit how fast this mon could be significantly without dumpstatting special attack. A faster spread should probably be less tanky than a slower spread, but if we were to follow the arbitrary guideline of PT>SS, that would mean a faster CAP 31 is a bulkier CAP 31. Though I'm sure you didn't mean to make this implication, that's what's implied.

edit for below: noted! leaving this up for posterity sake lol

 

[Tommaniacal]

I have to argue against this

Thank you for bringing this up, I meant to compare SS with PS, not PT. I edited my post

 

[boo836]

Um, what?

50% is a very reliable chance, especially if we can use the move multiple times (We don't really need to for the move to get its secondary effect off with some consistency, but it helps). I'm at work right now so I don't really have too much time to explain what this means mathematically (Which I kinda wanted to), so for now I will just put it into layman's terms and say your chance of getting the boost goes up quite a bit after each time you use it. Plus, even if this wasn't true, I don't see how that would necessarily force us into a defensive role. There are a good number of bulky grounds out there that would appreciate a more accurate Stone Edge to pressure Flying types easier.



Mew doesn't really stand out to me as a very notable check, and outside of the case of Demon Mew, really a check at all if I am being quite honest, and I fail too see why outspeeding it would be a problem.

I understand the maths lol. You need to go through 3 Diamond Storm to approach a semi-consistent boost. 75% is not a reliable chance, it's barely better than Focus Blast hitting and is a lot more likely to screw you over a few times on the ladder if you're reliant on that boost. It just isn't something we can/should rely on.

 

[quziel]

Frankly I think you're overlooking the possibility of "fishing" for a boost. That is, waiting until you have a free turn (eg in vs Pex), and Dstorming on what is likely a forced switch, and then deciding to stay in on their answer depending on whether you got the boost or not. This is something that Diancie does in the NU tier, and is something I expect us to do. We should be calcing with +2 Defense for a lot of stuff because we will only stay in and take a hit if we get the boost, which is something you can engineer over 2-3 cycles.

1. Our concept is focused on a non-STAB move with low PP and a 50% chance to boost CAP 31’s defense. What limits should we be prioritizing to best enable Diamond Storm in our moveset?

Frankly, I'd like a relatively constrained BSR limit and relatively high Sweepiness, PT, and ST limits. There's at on up in the air for us atm, so having limits that allow for a large number of different builds (eg high ST, high PS, low PT is as valid as average PS, high PT, high ST). Constraining any of these elements takes what is likely a fairly diverse stage and could reduce the spread in the submitted spreads.

 

[Rabia]

5. Given the flexibility of our C&C list, are there any mons we should strive to preserve as checks/counters from that discussion?

I'd try and maintain Equilibra and Corviknight as checks as best we can. We did add special Fire-type coverage as an optional move, but from discussion, it was not intended as a way to reliably bypass such foes; instead, it was desired to potentially pick such foes off from lower HP thresholds. I think special sweepiness should be somewhat limited to reflect this.

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

First post here, take my opinion with a grain of salt:

It’s been said before, but our options for stats are absurdly open. We could conceivably have:

High PT: This would allow us to use the DStorm boost to its full extent, allowing us to withstand even many SE attacks at +2. Specifically, this helps us greatly against Zeraora, Kartana, and Weavile.

Low PT: This lets us pursue a very interesting avenue as a kind of wallbreaker or sweeper that leverages the +2 boost to avoid being revenge killed. I’m a bit concerned that lowering PT too much lets some opponents KO us if weakened even with a boost though.

High PS: This is the most interesting stat to optimize imo. The idea is that the more opponents 31 can KO with both EQ and DS, the more we can click DS to fish for boosts. Also, the higher PS we have, the more we can stay in with our boosts to pressure certain switch-ins.

High ST: This is a natural choice, giving us great bulk on both sides if we get a DStorm boost. It makes us rather hard to kill and limits what can check us. However, I think there might be a more interesting choice:

Low ST: Giving us mid-low SpDef gives us a lot of room to allocate our power budget elsewhere, opening up unique builds and movesets that would normally be too powerful. Giving us good Atk/Def/Spe but low SpDef makes us sort of an oppressive presence that waits in the back and pressures the opponent until the opponent’s special attacking threats are gone, then try to clean up any remaining Pokemon.

High SS: This is kind of a side note/honorable mention, mostly existing just for Special Fire coverage. Not much to say here, it just gives us another option against Ferrothorn and a few others.

Also, I would like to discuss Landorus. I think there is value in at least greatly bothering it, but as is the matchup is kind of weak.There are definitely moveset options to deal with it, but I would also like to explore a high enough PS to pressure Lando with Diamond Storm. Right now Lando puts us in a kind of weird situation if it comes in after we get a boost, where we want to stay in to keep the Def boost but want to switch out to restore our Atk. I think a strong PS would at least dissuade it from coming in against us.

 

[Wulfanator]

I apologize for the delay. With my exams completed, expect the stage to move exponentially faster.

Conversation has offered some much-needed insight regarding how we should interpret our defining moves and where our priorities lie this project. As expected, physical sweepiness is responsible for enabling Diamond Storm as coverage. The community would like a physical sweepiness limit comparable to other viable ground-types and high-profile physical attackers. By allowing for such a generous limit, CAP 31 would be able to adequately pressure desirable targets.

As for the other limits, there is less pressure for defining any particular bias. Most people are receptive to the idea of establishing limits that allow submitters the ability to define the bias themselves. I will take a moment to highlight some of the commentary Dex provided around the relationship of tankier builds appreciating a special tankiness bias while more offensively oriented builds preferring a physical tankiness bias. Limits will be set in a way to enable both routes as feasible options without artificially influencing submitters down a particular path.

One more thing of note on the topic of tankiness: in my absence there was some discussion regarding the reliability of Diamond Storm. While 50% is very good compared to other moves with secondary effects, it is still not reliable enough to create a dependency on the boost. The comment provided by Agile Turtle summarizes the +2 boost of Diamond Storm perfectly in that “we should not rely on [the boost] for CAP 31 to function, but it is a boost we should design around.” Be sure to account for the boost given the high chance for activation, but do not become overly reliant on them.

When it comes to the plethora of defining moves, restricting BSR to account for each move’s power seems to be the primary solution when trying to avoid a volatile outcome. There may also be some subsequent limitations to sweepiness/tankiness values when accommodating for options like setup, but BSR will be the primary target.

Finally, I will acknowledge the call to ensure Corviknight and Equilibra as reasonable checks to CAP 31. These two mons will more than likely define the extents of our sweepiness values, so please be mindful of these mons when I eventually get around to presenting preliminary limits. Also, it will be important to include damage calcs targeting these two Pokémon specifically when stat submissions are opened.




With all of that out of the way, we have yet to really discuss speed. Please answer the following two questions.

1. The selection of a T-value is very important when it comes to stats since it dictates how the sweepiness limits are calculated. A small T-value means speed is more influential over the calculation whereas a large T-value means speed is less impactful. How important is speed to CAP 31’s success?

2. What speed tier should CAP 31 strive for? What can we afford to be slower than? The inclusion of several optional setup moves, especially ones that boost speed, warp this discussion heavily. Consider the cases of no boosting, swords dance, dragon dance, and shift gear when suggesting speed tiers. Are there other optional moves that impact speed as much as the ones already listed?

 

[dex]

1.
Speed is a strange matter here. There is definitely a link there with high Speed to pressure the mons that are weak to Rock like Weavile before it Axels and Tornadus-T before it U-turns. However, such a Speed is quite limiting, and I do not see it as necessary, as CAP 31 can count on Diamond Storm's boosts to get it through Weavile at a certain point. Therefore, a more mid-range T-value would be appreciated considering the vast variety of base Speed stats that CAP 31 could potentially feasibly run.

2.
I think, as a baseline, CAP 31 should be able to outspeed Timid Heatran with full investment and a positive nature. This would leave CAP 31 with a floor Speed value of 79. However, I'd like to see it buffed up to 81 for a floor value, as this notably outpaces two key threats: Blaziken and Dragonite, both of which are prime targets for CAP 31 to leverage Diamond Storm's boost against. For the time being, to accommodate slower spreads, 79 is a good, easy to hit baseline. As for an upper limit, since CAP 31's defined checks so far are quite slow, I could easily see it reaching past Weavile, which would be a 126. Going further than that (i.e. targeting Tapu Koko) does not seem wholly necessary to me and probably would weaken stat submissions too much. Passable special bulk is a better defense against Tapu Koko than straight outspeeding it here. For these reasons, I propose the following Speed limits: 79 (280 maximum) to 126 (386 maximum)

This, however, does not discuss Swords Dance spreads, which become much, much more threatening with higher Speed. For Swords Dance, I would propose the same Speed floor of 79 but drop the ceiling down considerably to 108. This allows for particular physical attackers, namely Adamant Choice Band Weavile and Kartana, to still pressure CAP 31, as they are perhaps the only physical attackers that can really get through its boosts. 108 Speed still gives CAP 31 quite the repertoire of Pokemon that it outspeeds and threatens, including Blacephalon and, importantly, Nihilego. Proposed Swords Dance Speed limit: 79 (280 maximum) to 108 (346 maximum)

This obviously does not account for Speed-boosting moves, which drastically change the necessary Speed of CAP 31. I think, on principle, if CAP 31 has access to Dragon Dance, it would be good to keep the best Choice Scarf users ahead of it, preferably Tapu Fini but ultimately Tapu Lele. This would put a ceiling of 94 on Speed. As for a floor, I think it is imperative for any Speed-boosting set to outpace Weavile at +1 which would denote a Speed floor of 67. Proposed Dragon Dance Speed limits: 67 (256 maximum) to 94 (315 maximum)

Discussing Speed limits for Shift Gear seems almost pointless; the move really does so much for little cost. The initial Speed, which can be used to force out opponents, is probably more important here than the resultant Speed at +2; however, I do think that utilizing Shift Gear should come with some sort of cost, be it in tankiness or in PS.

Rapid Spin has some consideration when it comes to Speed, but the move is generally not worth running for the Speed boost itself, so I do not think it is totally worth making any changes on its part. Taunt, on the other hand, gains a ton from going first; however, the Pokemon that Taunt generally targets (i.e. defensive utility mons) are usually quite slow, so it too should not have any large impact on the Speed discussion.

 

[hawk1113]

Was just about to post some big long rambly thing about how many Ground-type 'mons with EdgeQuake + Boost + Utility exist in the history of Pokemon, but Wulf's post kinda supercedes that now. Probably for the best, but it's a lot actually - this is well-worn territory, with some very viable 'mons (Garchomp, Landorus-T, Groudon up in Ubers) and some very bad 'mons (Marowak, Sandslash).

1. The selection of a T-value is very important when it comes to stats since it dictates how the sweepiness limits are calculated. A small T-value means speed is more influential over the calculation whereas a large T-value means speed is less impactful. How important is speed to CAP 31’s success?

I think Speed is of fairly high importance to CAP31's success, for a few reasons:

• It is very pro-concept to outspeed a foe and fish for a Diamond Storm boost.
• It is a nice differentiating factor. With the exception of Garchomp, most of the 'mons I was looking at tend to have base speed tiers somewhere between "so laughably bad they need a Trick Room" and "fine".
• Since this is such well-established territory, I'd say history has shown that even with frightening levels of attack from the likes of Diggersby and Marowak or incredible Physical Tankiness from a 'mon like Rhyperior, there is a hard cap on the efficacy of this particular strategy we're angling for without good speed to back it.

I've seen a few folks say they could see CAP31 as more of a slower wallbreaker, using Diamond Storm to be hard to revenge kill, but I'm worried given all the above that pursuing that line will land us in unviability. We can, and should, be extremely generous in our power budget in this stage since we can't be that way in movepool. Right now in my opinion, CAP31 is a lot closer to being a Sandslash than a Garchomp so we really need to do something powerful in this stage.

2a. What speed tier should CAP 31 strive for? What can we afford to be slower than? The inclusion of several optional setup moves, especially ones that boost speed, warp this discussion heavily. Consider the cases of no boosting, swords dance, dragon dance, and shift gear when suggesting speed tiers.

At the barest minimum I do think it's essential we outspeed Heatran by base without boosting. We should be able to outspeed defensively inclined 'Tran without investment, and be able to outspeed even Timid Balloon Frog with investment. Given that prior discussion has found we'd need ludicrous, impossible amounts of Special Tankiness to eat multiple eruptions, a high enough speed is the next best thing. In theory that's doable with higher-end Tier 3 (70 to 90) base speed, but I'd prefer the flexbility to do it without a forced Jolly Nature whichwould require a Tier 2 (90 to 110) speed tier.

It'd also be nice to make Landorus-Therian think twice about switching in on us by being able to get the first click of Diamond Storm or our other utility options. If we don't have Dragon Dance or Shift Gears, that would mandate a speed on the higher side of Tier 2. With DD or SG, a Tier 3 speed would work out okay with investment.

A final nice little thing I'd like is to have the ability to speed creep Astrolotl so that if we end up together on a mutual switch it thinks twice about clicking moves like WoW against us (or if we're feeling spicy, this speed would give us the option to try to come in on a predicted non-WoW and force Astrolotl out). This would require a Tier 1 Speed Tier (110-130) to make happen though, which might just eat up too much of our stat budget. So I consider this more food for thought than a "make or break" speed tier. Do note though that given that 'Lotl rarely maxes speed EVs we could do it on the lower end of Tier 1 Speed?

I think it's less a question of "what can we afford to be slower than" considering all that and more a question of "what do we need to accept we just ain't outspeeding unboosted?". That would be Zeraora and Tornadus-Therian, who boast speed tiers so high that it seems impossible for CAP31 to match them and still have any BSR and BST left to do anything else fun. As Torn-T is a 'mon we want to pressure but not necessarily switch into repeatedly, that seems fine enough allthough it's worth considering if we'd want to spring for a high Tier 1 speed tier to really put the screws to it. For Zeraora, we'll just need to mind our Physical Tankiness instead. These are the two big ones - I'm unconcerned with outspeeding Tapu Koko because it can't really threaten us, and if I thought outspeeding Torn-T was a heavy cost than outspeeding Koko is an impossible cost. Outspeeding Weavile is nice, but non-essential as that mon isn't going to want to switch in on us and DStorm can make us harder to revenge kill (and again, 126 is getting a bit too crazy).

2b. Are there other optional moves that impact speed as much as the ones already listed?

Taunt and reliable recovery are two of the biggest ways CAP31 can make itself "different" than other ground types and carve itself a niche in a meta full of powerful ground-type physical attackers, as currently there are no viable ground types in the game with Taunt (there's very few Grounds with Taunt in the game period). Both of these appreciate higher speed tiers, to turn Taunt from a move that lets us punish defensive/stall-mons to a way to juke WoWs and Toxics and to allow recovery to pull us out of danger to allow us to brawl a bit more.

 

[Zetalz]

dex's post said everything I had to say and more regarding t values and speed caps. I think their point of speed really only being truly impactful on 31 at very high levels is something that should be kept in mind, 31 will still have ample opportunity to utilize Diamond Storm boosts at lower speed tiers. Also will quickly add I think the best way to limit Shift Gear is by cutting into PS and overall BSR heavily to limit any kind of possible BSR shenanigans, if you want Shift Gear on your spread it should come at a notable cost over DD spreads.

Regarding other optionals I'd say Taunt really should only have a minor hit to overall BSR, there isn't really a definitive build for Taunt users regarding speed so there isn't much other way to have to have it logically affect limits. 50% Recovery I think in the same vein should only really hit overall BSR (more than Taunt for sure), or perhaps a combined minor hit to both BSR and tankiness limits. Rapid Spin or Twave don't need to be accounted for in stats imo, Spin in particular doesn't really have the same inherent affect on PS limits that DD or SG do. Likewise coverage options do not affect Speed at all, everything they are used to hit is in all likelihood already slower than 31 by extension of us putting Heatran as our Speed Floor, or outspeeding them is not necessary due to 31's already favored matchup into them.

 

[Amamama]

1. The selection of a T-value is very important when it comes to stats since it dictates how the sweepiness limits are calculated. A small T-value means speed is more influential over the calculation whereas a large T-value means speed is less impactful. How important is speed to CAP 31’s success?

Overall Speed matters more for offensive Pokémon and Pokémon that don’t have reliable recovery. The situation where outspeeding becomes important, is more likely and happens faster if a Mon has no reliable way to mitigate a loss of HP, as well as for mons that want to KO their opponent before getting hit (Wallbreaker/Cleaner/Sweeper).
While I think a T value of 2 or 2.5 is fine for most spreads, bc it emphasizes speed, without making it the top priority, I think there’s definitely an argument for higher values for spreads that run recovery (for comparison Venomicon-Epilogue had a T-Value of 3).

2. What speed tier should CAP 31 strive for? What can we afford to be slower than? The inclusion of several optional setup moves, especially ones that boost speed, warp this discussion heavily. Consider the cases of no boosting, swords dance, dragon dance, and shift gear when suggesting speed tiers. Are there other optional moves that impact speed as much as the ones already listed?

TBH for no boosting i think we can be really creative with speed tiers.
Im going a bit against the grain here, but I believe that the absolute floor for us is a Speed, that allows outspeeding Toxapex (without investment that’s base 36), bc this ensures, that the two match ups into Gkingand Toxapex- which imo are the most defining Matchups for 31 as a Ground Type that is immune to Scald - are absolutely in 31s favor.
Dealing with Heatran at these speeds absolutely would require astronomical Special Bulk, but I think that a spread like Melmetal but Defensive stats swapped is absolutely pro concept, as it leverages Dstorms defensive Boosts to become stupid bulky on both sides. (Imagine Melmetal but it boosts SpD when it clicks Earthquake). A similar spread also would synergize well with Twave which is an optional Move.

On the other side I don’t think we need a top speed limit at all.
While we do matchup fairly well into the speed gods Zera and Koko- given our Ground Type - both of these are incredible at forcing chip on switch ins and outlasting them in battle, thanks to their blazing speed making them hard to chip down or revenge.
Being faster would make checking both considerably easier (especially Koko as it can’t accumulate chip with Uturn).

I don’t agree with the idea, that these high speeds would limit our stats so significantly, that they make for a worse product.
We are still trying to compete with mons, that have absurdly strong BSR ratings. Even at t=1 ChompersPS is at the same level as Zeras(~140) and it’s BSR is still a lot higher, while Landois still close to Zera in sweepiness (135), while being slightly weaker in its BSR.

I view Edgequake coverage similarly to Zeraoras Electric plus Fighting coverage, in that is fairly wide neutral coverage, that still has some tough Matchups into some defensive staples, but is great to spam into frailer builds, especially if 31 is able to outspeed.
Denying mons like Torn or Tapu Koko the ability to pivot via Uturn is just huge for a ground type.
Moreover as we’ve discovered in previous stages high speeds have great synergy with Diamond Storm, as it allows CAP31 to boost before getting hit.

 

[Korski]

I’d like to echo Amamama’s arguments about not putting boundaries on the actual base stats themselves in this thread. I think the way the various stat ratings put limits on stat spread submissions is reasonable enough as-is without pre-banning any specific numbers for submitters (if that is even what’s going on here, instead of some users simply marking their preferences for the submission stage). I think it’s weird to immediately dismiss out of hand even the possibility of outspeeding half of our targets list because it would mean not hitting our checks list hard enough, feels backwards to me. CAP is allowed to deviate from the established middle; it’s very close to the entire point of the Project to do so. I haven’t been hiding the fact that I think this CAP has serious business shaking up the meta’s high speed tiers (especially with it being the last project of the generation), but I won’t immediately dismiss out of hand the bulky boosting LandoChomp tank build before any are submitted and justified in the next stage, either. I personally don’t get what we stand to learn from doing this same build for the third time in a row, but I will wait to find out and not try to make any mandates here, it may literally be just me. I say set the BSR limits to be as variable as the opinions in this project have been thus far, and trust leadership to reasonably cap the overall BSR and judiciously slate the community’s options. The stats subs have already been made stratospherically complicated by the addition of partial movepool subs without adding more restrictions and variables onto the pile.

The T-Value thing is somewhat new and I can’t find an explanation of it for non-math majors anywhere, but whichever T-Value reflects that base speed is likely to be the central focus of the CAP’s competitiveness is the one I support. Small T, then? I think Amamama made it make a little bit of sense with the recovery comment, but based on that I think this will be a variable that will have to change depending on each submission’s inclusion or exclusion of recovery options. It’s all really just a lot, honestly lol. The T-Value itself is comprised of three variables, evidently. Do we need to discuss the “expected number of targets to be assigned to the designated role” also?