CAP 32 - Part 6 - Defining Moves Part 2

[Sawyer.]

I'm frankly concerned about the tendency to slap Rapid Spin on CAPs when it isn't necessary to fulfil their concept.

There are 31 fully-evolved CAPs and nine of them have Rapid Spin. That's 29%. For reference, roughly 5% of real fully-evolved Pokemon have access to the move. Of course there is no need for us to follow Gamefreak's move distributions, but I personally find it ridiculous how often we keep going back to this well.

Like, of course giving CAP 32 an unblockable Rapid Spin will be a strong option for it. But that isn't a sufficient justification. In some ways, Rapid Spin is actually anti-concept because it would incentivise CAP 32 to stay in to clear hazards or boost its speed, rather than using offensive pressure to force and capitalise on an opponent's switch. We have plenty of ways to give CAP 32 a niche without resorting to Rapid Spin, and doing so again would be both lazy and uncreative.

 

[Brambane]

irt: above
We generally have no obligation to follow Game Freak's trends; I personally dislike how much we restrict certain moves and abilities on the basis of them having low distribution in the game, but this isn't the thread to pick that fight.

Our primary goal in CAP is to better understand the game of competitive Pokemon (broadly speaking) or the CAP metagame itself (a more focused direction) and ultimately learn something through the process. To that end, CAPs need to either:

• be viable and usable, as in order to execute a concept and learn about the game, the CAP should be worth using itself on teams in high caliber settings (high ladder and forum tournaments, the former of which is mitigated due to lack of ladder activity)
• introduce a new mechanic or re-design an existing mechanic of game, which is extremely difficult but not impossible without custom elements

Good viability is paramount to many projects, including this one. After all, the basis on which this concept is built is that Pokemon don't always need exceptional stats to be viable.

One of the ways which a Pokemon can be made viable is through role compression, and one of the most accessible and strongest ways to do that is through hazards and removal. Rapid Spin is a tool in our arsenal to that end, and one we should not feel limited to use during the design process. Certainly if there were other options for removal they would be considered, but Defog, Court Change, etc differ from Rapid Spin greatly. This is ultimately us having to work with the kit Game Freak gives us, and every generation I cross my fingers in hopes that they give us more moves like Rapid Spin for us to work with, but they never come.

With that being said, whether or not Rapid Spin is a move we give a CAP is based more on teambuilding structures and internal synergies with the CAP, and currently it doesn't seem like a move CAP32 really needs. Rapid Spin is pretty well-established in the metagame and not exactly hard to compress on most teams. And while CAP32 has some internal synergy with the move, it feels a little pressed for moveslots just glancing at the defining move list already. So I would not feel obligated to give CAP32 Rapid Spin at all, but not due to our previous distribution patterns, as those are irrelevant the the project at hand anyways.

 

[Sawyer.]

Our primary goal in CAP is to better understand the game of competitive Pokemon (broadly speaking) or the CAP metagame itself (a more focused direction) and ultimately learn something through the process. To that end, CAPs need to either:

• be viable and usable, as in order to execute a concept and learn about the game, the CAP should be worth using itself on teams in high caliber settings (high ladder and forum tournaments, the former of which is mitigated due to lack of ladder activity)
• introduce a new mechanic or re-design an existing mechanic of game, which is extremely difficult but not impossible without custom element

Sure, but if we're using the same move as a crutch to boost the viability of 1/3 of our CAPs, what are we actually learning?

As you say, we're under no obligation to make Pokemon in the same mould as Gamefreak. Because of that, we could (and should imo) commit to making Pokemon that fulfil a single concept and do that exceptionally, to the exclusion of all else. That would involve a real learning process. Instead, my impression is that CAP tends to churn out generically strong Pokemon that possess many effective tools and which (as a result) only somewhat satisfy their concepts.

CAP 32 is a prime example. I would love to see us commit to making CAP 32 a great pivot first and foremost, with a focus on creating opportunities for its teammates to come in safely. But if we load up its movepool with Rapid Spin, Spikes, and Knock Off, the incentive to actually pivot with it rapidly diminishes. Pivoting will became a situational play, just as it is with countless real Pokemon that were not explicitly designed around a competitive concept.

Of course CAP 32 must be viable in the metagame in order for us to learn. But I'm not remotely convinced that the aforementioned moves are necessary to ensure its viability. They may be, but to assume so at this stage only undermines our concept. We'll just create another solid, viable Pokemon that teaches us nothing.

 

[Reviloja753]

Required:

• Extreme Speed, Double-Edge, Hyper Voice, Rapid Spin, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat, Fire Lash
• At least one of: Flare Blitz/Heat Crash/Fire Lash — U-Turn/Volt Switch — 50% Recovery/Strength Sap — Stealth Rocks/Spikes
• At most one of: Bitter Blade/Armor Cannon/Torch Song — Psychic/Thunderbolt/Power Gem
• Knock Off

Optional: Boomburst, Rapid Spin, 50% Recovery, Strength Sap, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Will-o-Wisp, Parting Shot, Taunt

This would be my suggestions on how to revise this list. Rapid Spin and Fire Lash should not be outright required, as submitters should be able to choose whether or not to enable these stat boosting/lowering moves; a spread with 120 Special Attack and 75 Speed, for example, is a very different prospect with Rapid Spin than without it. I also feel that recovery and hazards should be optional, as imo viable spreads can go without these moves, especially spreads that seek to be more aggressive with their movesets. Power Gem I assume was put on the list as a mistake. I do also feel like people should be able to do something where they don't need to add moves from the opposite attack category of their spread; a spread vying to be a special attacker definitely does not need Extreme Speed, for example. The moves actually listed here I have no real qualms with though.

 

[ryangregory78]

Boomburst has such high BP that it massively warps our Special Attacking stat limit, so I don't feel comfortable putting it in required moves if users would rather opt for higher Special Attack for our Fire STAB: at the same time, I could just have you pick between it or Hyper Voice, but I wanted to leave the "pick one" category for signature moves and moves of similar strength or purpose. I might be having a mental crisis over this one so someone please speak sense to me.

I've thought about Boomburst a lot for this project, and I think that pairing Boomburst with Armor Cannon would be the best way to go. Sure, it doesn't even rival the power of Pixilate Boomburst, but it's the best move we can go for considering Boomburst's imminent stat limitations. A 120BP perfectly-accurate STAB with minimal drawbacks is inherently amazing and, unlike something like Flamethrower or Torch Song, can actually function off of a less-than-good Special Attack due to its very high BP. Of course, this still means that we're throwing out really weak coverage moves that probably won't even really threaten what then need to, but the power of Boomburst and Armor Cannon still stands.

All in all, Hyper Voice would probably be a thousand times easier to build around, and Boomburst should probably stay optional.

Explosion is also very powerful but conspicuously absent from this list, as I feel like the move just doesn't suit stat discussion. Realistically, Explosion is either going to hit absurdly hard, but we have to make it count since we KO ourselves otherwise, or the damage aspect is moreso a bonus of getting a free switch and potentially denying the opponent their turn. These don't feel like good avenues to balance our stats, but rather neat aspects we could look into upon reaching movesets. As such, Explosion hasn't made the cut.

I agree with this. Of course, being that we are a pivot, giving a teammate a free switch is always gonna be our goal, but I don't think that killing ourself should be our main way of doing this. No doubt it'll generate value in taking something down with it, but I think that gives us similar problems to something like Mega Banette, in that our biggest leg up over our stronger competition boils down to trading one-for-one. Such a niche could work well for a suicide lead or something, but since we're aiming to be an offensive pivot that's probably not in our best interest.

 

[mark6870]

We'll just create another solid, viable Pokemon that teaches us nothing.

Excuse me for white knighting.
I haven't been a part of CAP long enough to make a concrete counterclaim on this so correct me if i'm wrong, but i have a hard time believing that with 32 CAPs all with unique concepts behind them have taught us nothing. I can't say CAP is perfect, because nothing is perfect and I kinda just got here, but i have a hard time that they've learned nothing from 16 years of doin this shit (holy crap CAP is almost as old as me). Even if a CAP doesn't fulfill its concept and is unviable, or if it is viable in a different way than the creators originally planned, we can reflect on where it succeeded / where it failed and use that knowledge to create better CAP in the future. For example, if CAP32 did get Magic Guard instead of Pixilate, we'd probably take a look at Krilowatt (a mon meant to "be capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time" but just ended up being an offensive pivot) and see how Magic Guard affected it, and keep that knowledge in mind going forward in CAP32's process (for example, a big thing that was being discussed was "unacceptable shrimp disease," which was that Kril was terribly passive once it lost its Life Orb. If we went ahead with Magic Guard, we'd be asking "how high would our stats be if we wanted to avoid it? Should we avoid it in the first place?" That kind of stuff counts as learning and applying, methinks.)

anyways

CAP 32 is a prime example. I would love to see us commit to making CAP 32 a great pivot first and foremost, with a focus on creating opportunities for its teammates to come in safely. But if we load up its movepool with Rapid Spin, Spikes, and Knock Off, the incentive to actually pivot with it rapidly diminishes.

I keep seeing stuff along the lines of "if we give CAP32 X move it won't be a pivot anymore" as if Pivots are just u-turn bots that do anything other than click U-turn. and i would just like to say,
GOOD PIVOTS DO MORE THAN JUST PIVOT. PIVOTS ARE NOT ABOUT GETTING IN AN CLICKING A PIVOTING MOVE, THEY ARE ABOUT FORCING SWITCHES. GIVING CAP32 UTILITY OPTIONS WILL HELP IT SUCCEED AS A GREAT PIVOT.
Rapid Spin, Hazards, and Knock Off are used commonly by offensive pivots that are still viable as offensive pivots. Meowscrada, for example uses both Spikes and Knock in its moveset to make progress vs. the enemy team. Lots of offensive pivots that are not in this meta or are in lower tiers also make use of utility options.
For example, Landorus and Tornadus made use of their hazard removal in Defog and they both make use of Knock. Tornwill sometimes even use knock on its Nasty Plot sets.
Boots Dragapult uses status and Hex, yet I don't see anyone arguing "Dragapult isn't a pivot because clicking Thunder Wave on turn 1 incentivizes the player to stay in and click Hex the next turn"
Hell, offensive pivots don't even run pivoting all the time even if they have the option to, and they are still pivots because they force switches and gain momentum for their team.
Stuff like Greninja, Iron Treads, Tornadus, and Hex Pult sometimes forgo their pivoting moves for utility, and they're STILL technically pivots because THEY FORCE SWITCHES.

I did some reading up on offensive pivots and i found this article.
https://www.smogon.com/articles/pivots-sm-ou
If you don't feel like reading the whole thing, have some of these nuggets:


-"Choice Band Tyranitar is one of the most renowned offensive pivots in the tier, being able to switch into many common Pokémon on offensive archetypes, notably Zapdos and Latios. Tyranitar is an effective offensive pivot due to its ability to shift the offensive momentum of games completely in the Tyranitar wielder's favor with a timely use of Pursuit."

-"[Offensive] Heatran is a fantastic offensive pivot, being able to switch into many threatening Pokémon like Mega Mawile that are otherwise a headache to deal with while simultaneously being incredibly frustrating to switch into.

This set is such a powerful pivot because it's a fantastic way to threaten bulkier teams with Magma Storm + Taunt + Toxic while simultaneously having the utility of checking Pokémon that otherwise very easily get out of control, such as Swords Dance Mega Scizor."

-"This [Scarf Greninja] set is such a good pivot by virtue of its versatility, maintaining offensive momentum with U-turn, wearing down defensive Pokémon by providing Spikes support, and having potent offensive moves to take down many top-tier threats."

As you can see, these pivots do more than just pivot. Some, like CB Tyrannitar and Offensive Z-Tran can wallbreak, and others, like Greninja, can set Spikes and Revenge kill. It's worth noting that the post I linked also had some defensive pivots, most of which could be turned into revenge killers/offensive pivots with a Choice Scarf (seriously, magearna can do anything).

I also just wanna say that giving offensive pivots utility options no longer makes them pivots cdiscredits the existence of defensive pivots, which make use of utility moves way more than offensive pivots while still being pivots. Not that offensive pivots shouldnt use utility, because they make great use of it.
TLDR; pivots are not uturn bots

 

[StarFalcon555]

Four things:

1: Going to make one more push for including Fake Out in this, preferably in the Optional section. It's just such a good move for making progress and synergizes very well with both our role as an offensive pivot and our Ability. I am very aware that Extreme Speed is overall the better priority option, but Fake Out has its own unique niche here, hence putting it in the Optional section.

2: Also agree with Fire Lash and Rapid Spin being moved to the Optional section. Fire Lash in particular gives me the same worries that Lumina Crash did earlier in the process - the worry of being able to bypass our low stats with the drops we inflict. Definitely something to keep an eye on.

3: I'm going to be controversial again and suggest that we remove Torch Song completely from the list. Not only does it pose the same issues as Fire Lash, but it also feels very anti-role to me. Fire Lash works for an offensive pivot because we drop the stats to force the opponent out and make progess (see: Astrolotl). Torch Song, however, does the opposite: we want to stay in and tank as many hits as possible so we can build up as many boosts as possible, and with our lower stats, there's a good chance we won't be able to pull that off.

4: One more suggestion I want to make for adding another coverage move to the list: Psyshock. It's worse than Psychic, yes, but hitting the opponent on the physical defense side instead of the special defense side could make a big difference in certain matchups, being more effective into matchups with special walls like Clodsire, Skeledirge, and Snaelstrom. Definitely something worth considering.

TLDR: Add Fake Out and Psyshock, move Fire Lash and Rapid Spin to Optional, remove Torch Song entirely

 

[Brambane]

I think Fake Out is not super relevent to stat spread, maaaaybe you can make a case that with ExtremeSpeed its effectively 120 BP priority but that seems like a stretch. It's kind of like Explosion where the move is fine, but not something to focus on next stage.

Agreed on Psyshock, we should combine Psyshock with Psychic; if you get one, you automatically get the other for a bit of flexibility.

Torch Song is probably fine, I am not going to deny it pushes us into more endgame wincon territory, but I am not convinced that is antithetical to pivoting if Skeledirge is any indicator. I push against the phrasing of "bypassing low stats," as we are more trying to "function viably in the metagame in spite of average stats." Using the phrase bypass makes it sound like anything that improves our numerical damage dealt or received is somehow at odds with our goal.

 

[mark6870]

Boomburst is the primary reason most even consider a special CAP32 set over a physical one with Extreme Speed. In my opinion, we're either picking a phys set with Epeed or a special one with Boomburst. Most special spreads are probably gonna have Boomburst on them, so I'd put it in Required.

Rapid Spin should be moved to optional list. Rapid spin is obvously a great move, and will affect how fast we will be in the stats stage, but I feel like we won't always be using it over other utility options we have. Since it's still incredibly useful, I believe it should be Optional.

I also suggest adding Fake Out to the optional moves list exclusively because it + Exteme Speed is strong and can affect calcs in the Stats stage.

I don't know why discussion has died down for Lumina Crash. The move is totally is stat-warping and excellent on a pivot due to it forcing switchins and generating momentum. It becomes especially threatening when backed by a nuke move in Boomburst. I would argue for it to be in the "at most-one-of" list with Armor Cannon and Heat Crash.

 

[shnowshner]

Hi if I see one more post mention how Torch Song is anti-role I am legitimately going to have an aneurysm.

When we click Torch Song we don't suddenly lose the ability to switch out. Feeling like you need to stay in after obtaining that first boost is an absolute noob trap and you are not doing yourself any favors when you imply that boosting = not a pivot is the case. Torch Song gives us a means, like Fire Lash, to pose an immediate danger to the opponent that they have to respond to else we get out of control, and it is through this pressure that we can create opportunities to pivot and keep momentum. Torch Song is particularly excellent for this because it builds up our offensive presense while dealing damage, meaning we aren't "wasting" a turn to setup, as long as we can ensure the damage manages to stick or generate a free turn on our end. This move has a ton of merit for an Offensive Pivot as we can use it to help force switches, while also granting us additional merit late-game as a wincon.

If you want Torch Song off the slate, please give a valid reason why.

I am heading into another shift after wrongly assuming I would not be today and so I am not in the mood for this kind of nothing, baseless argument we've seen and failed to put to rest for weeks now.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Going to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of the list we have at the moment, and this mostly comes down to the fact that there are simply just way to many things that are currently in the Required Section. Instead of going through specifics, I figured I would suggest a revised list and offer some explanation for the changes I made here.

Required:

• Extreme Speed
• If Physical or Mixed: Double-Edge, Flare Blitz/Heat Crash
• If Special or Mixed: Hyper Voice, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat
• At least one of: U-Turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot/Chilly Reception

Optional:

• Boomburst, Will-o-Wisp, Taunt, Rapid Spin, Fire Lash, 50% Recovery, Strength Sap, Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Spikes
• At most one of: Bitter Blade/Armor Cannon/Torch Song — Psychic Coverage/Electric Coverage/Rock Coverage (90 BP or lower)

1: I moved a lot of stuff down from Required to Optional, leaving only our main STAB and pivoting moves.

2: I divided most of our main STAB moves in the Required section into two separate categories, one for physically oriented-spreads and one for specially oriented spreads. It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have to be considering how something like Hyper Voice is going to affect your stat submission on a physical attacker or how Double-Edge will be doing the same for a special attacker, so I figured the best approach to this would be to allow users to choose which one they want to pick and have to consider specific moves for that type of stat spread (Or if they want to do Mixed, they would have to take into account moves from both categories). I made Extreme Speed an exception since I think it has enough utility that even on Special Attacking sets it's probably something that we are going to need to consider for the process no matter what route we take.

3: I grouped Parting Shot and Chilly Reception up with the other pivoting moves just so submitters are allowed to pick from any of the pivoting moves we decided to go with. I know Chilly Reception isn't on the original list, but I figured that it should be added. While I do think that the effect of setting Snow isn't super relevant in this metagame all things considered, Chilly Reception has a pretty nice niche in that it's a pivot move that doesn't proc anything and can't be blocked, making it a fairly low-risk, low-reward option to consider compared to the other pivoting moves we can choose between.

4: I decided to make the coverage options fairly generic so that they easily encompass pretty much all reasonable options that can be covered from both the physical and special side. Some users here have already suggested adding Psyshock, which I think is a good idea, and I think that giving physical spreads access to the same type of coverage that special spreads has would be better for the project overall, and this approach kills two birds with one stone.

 

[bigtibba]

If you want Torch Song off the slate, please give a valid reason why.

Torch Song in conjunction with Boomburst is extremely powerful. Most Fairy resists can easily be overwhelmed over time with enough Torch Song boosts such as Venomicon or Toxapex. Alternatively, Unaware users could be useful, but Sp.Def Dondozo is 2HKOed by Tera Fairy Pixilate Boomburst, (using 95 base special attack as a baseline) and Arghonaut is eviscerated by it. It's a bit difficult to ascertain before we figure out stats, but at a glance the only walls that can reliably handle Torch Song + Boomburst are Skeledirge and Clodsire.

Boomburst hasn't been finalized yet, but given the support in this thread it's likely that it'll end up being a part of its moveset. I'm personally very much against the move, but if we do end up with it I'd really rather not have Torch Song as well for the aforementioned reasons.

It's worth mentioning that Iron Moth resists Torch Song and quadruple resists Pixilate Boomburst as well as threatening CAP 32 with Poison STAB, but it's rarely seen outside of sun anyway.

 

[skippergamez]

Torch Song, to me, is just so meh. (And kinda Armor Cannon too)

*This upcoming paragraph is very polljumpy, but I think I’ve worded it where it’s not :)*

Giving up Bitter Blade over Torch Song when you want to use Extreme Speed makes no sense. I just don’t see why you would wanna raise your SpAtk when you’ll click ESpeed most of the time. Bitter Blade has: higher BP, heals, has Physical category synergy with ESpeed. Now, if we go the Boomburst > ESpeed route, then yes, Torch Song is very good.
Ok, as promised, here's my review on our defining moves list.

Required:

• Extreme Speed or Boomburst
• Double-Edge/Hyper Voice, Rapid Spin, Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Overheat/Fire Lash
• At least one of: Flare Blitz/Heat Crash — U-Turn/Volt Switch
• 50% Recovery/Strength Sap — Stealth Rocks/Spikes
• At most one of: Bitter Blade/Armor Cannon/Torch Song
• At most two of: Psychic/Thunderbolt/Power Gem
• Knock Off

Optional:

• Boomburst, Will-o-Wisp, Parting Shot, Taunt, Knock Off, Stealth Rock/Spikes, Flare Blitz/Heat Crash

my edits that look noice

Required:

• Extreme Speed or Boomburst
• Double-Edge/Hyper Voice, Bitter Blade/Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Overheat/Fire Lash
• U-Turn/Volt Switch
• 50% Recovery/Strength Sap
• At most two of: Psychic/Thunderbolt/Power Gem

Optional:

• Will-o-Wisp, Parting Shot, Taunt, Knock Off, Stealth Rock/Spikes, Flare Blitz/Heat Crash

Comments of my (a lot of) edits

• I feel like Boomburst should be either or with ESpeed, and have the most priority
• The other STABs are a duhhhh
• Pivoting moves make a pivot a pivot tbf
• Recovery is great for CAP32’s longevity
• Bitter Blade (see above)
• Heat Crash and Flare Blitz can be optional as their kinda meh compared to Flamethrower and Fire Lash
• Hazards can go to optional as i don’t see CAP32 needing to use it.
• Knock Off can also move down, but I don’t think its not reliable to be used unlike hazards

 

[Sawyer.]

I keep seeing stuff along the lines of "if we give CAP32 X move it won't be a pivot anymore" as if Pivots are just u-turn bots that do anything other than click U-turn. and i would just like to say,
GOOD PIVOTS DO MORE THAN JUST PIVOT. PIVOTS ARE NOT ABOUT GETTING IN AN CLICKING A PIVOTING MOVE, THEY ARE ABOUT FORCING SWITCHES. GIVING CAP32 UTILITY OPTIONS WILL HELP IT SUCCEED AS A GREAT PIVOT.
Rapid Spin, Hazards, and Knock Off are used commonly by offensive pivots that are still viable as offensive pivots. Meowscrada, for example uses both Spikes and Knock in its moveset to make progress vs. the enemy team. Lots of offensive pivots that are not in this meta or are in lower tiers also make use of utility options.

This "argument" keeps being raised but it falls flat in the face of any logic.

As I said in my last post, the CAP process allows us to optimise a Pokemon around a particular competitive role in a way that real Pokemon are not. Yes, Meowscarada is an offensive pivot, and yes, it uses Spikes. It would be better at pivoting if it didn't use Spikes. The use of Spikes detracts from that role, but boosts Meowscarada's viability in other ways.

Fundamentally, pivoting means forcing switches and creating opportunities to bring in teammates safely. Since this was our concept, I believe we should maximise CAP32's effectiveness at doing this. We don't know whether a Pokemon that focuses entirely on pivoting and offensive pressure can be viable. The only way for us to find out is by trying to make one. Making Meowscarada part 2 teaches us nothing.

 

[Ehmcee]

This "argument" keeps being raised but it falls flat in the face of any logic.

As I said in my last post, the CAP process allows us to optimise a Pokemon around a particular competitive role in a way that real Pokemon are not. Yes, Meowscarada is an offensive pivot, and yes, it uses Spikes. It would be better at pivoting if it didn't use Spikes. The use of Spikes detracts from that role, but boosts Meowscarada's viability in other ways.

Fundamentally, pivoting means forcing switches and creating opportunities to bring in teammates safely. Since this was our concept, I believe we should maximise CAP32's effectiveness at doing this. We don't know whether a Pokemon that focuses entirely on pivoting and offensive pressure can be viable. The only way for us to find out is by trying to make one. Making Meowscarada part 2 teaches us nothing.

An offensive pivot should be able to force progress through having enough initial pressure to force switches for it to be able to either capitalize off of that switch or pivot into something that will be able to capitalize off that switch. In general status moves don't particularly help the role of an offensive pivot but entry hazards absolutely do. Entry Hazards inherently capitalize off of forcing switches by chipping away at the would-be switchin. Offensive pivots with access to hazards have historically ran them, wether it be Greninja, Meowscarada, Landorus-I (when it was legal) and on occasion, Infernape. An offensive pivot's main goal shouldn't to specifically be pivoting, but having good offensive pressure, capitalize on forcing switches and also having the ability to pivot.

 

[dex]

Yes, Meowscarada is an offensive pivot, and yes, it uses Spikes. It would be better at pivoting if it didn't use Spikes. The use of Spikes detracts from that role, but boosts Meowscarada's viability in other ways.

I cannot describe how wrong this sentiment is. Setting entry hazards are, in effect, a means of pressuring the opponent. Entry hazard setters often force in entry hazard removal. This is a basic tenet of competitive Pokemon that has been a feature of the game for a very, very long time. Entry hazard setters that beat common entry hazard removers have been a huge boon in many metagames. Heatran, for instance, has perennially been one of the best Stealth Rock setters because it beats most forms of removal. Landorus-T was a great Stealth Rock setter in previous generations because of its positive matchup into spinners like Excadrill and Tentacruel, and the threat of Stealth Rock often forced opponents to respond with a) removal or b) an offensive threat to take advantage of the "dead" turn. This is very easy to take advantage of via U-turn. The opposite of this is also true, removal that can beat common setters is extremely valuable. I will use the example of Landorus-T again, as SpD Defog Landorus-T took off last generation as pretty much the only thing that could remove Heatran's Stealth Rock safely. The threat of entry hazards is often enough to force a switch, meaning that you have a great chance to use U-turn. This is particularly helpful in the case of Meowscarada, which is not that offensively threatening by itself, as it has high Speed and low bulk, meaning its ability to force things in with entry hazards is extremely important and benefits its ability to be a pivot. Entry hazards are a pressure unto themself and are a completely valid path for this CAP to take.

 

[Sawyer.]

An offensive pivot should be able to force progress through having enough initial pressure to force switches for it to be able to either capitalize off of that switch or pivot into something that will be able to capitalize off that switch. In general status moves don't particularly help the role of an offensive pivot but entry hazards absolutely do. Entry Hazards inherently capitalize off of forcing switches by chipping away at the would-be switchin. Offensive pivots with access to hazards have historically ran them, wether it be Greninja, Meowscarada, Landorus-I (when it was legal) and on occasion, Infernape. An offensive pivot's main goal shouldn't to specifically be pivoting, but having good offensive pressure, capitalize on forcing switches and also having the ability to pivot.

Yes, hazard control makes pivoting more effective. But is it really necessary for our pivot to set or remove the hazards itself? Why not leave that to CAP32's teammates, so we can focus on actually pivoting?

The most crucial aspect of the argument that you (and others) have raised is that "an offensive pivot's main goal shouldn't be pivoting, but having good offensive pressure, capitalizing on forcing switches and also having the ability to pivot". This definition fits the template of real Pokemon that are used as pivots, such as Greninja and Meowscarada. But that's just the problem - it fits an existing template. We're not doing anything original.

Instead, I would prefer for us to design a Pokemon that pivots as much as possible and as effectively as possible. Everything should be geared towards that goal. As I've said, conducting the CAP process in that way is guaranteed to teach us a lot, whether we succeed or fail.

I realise we're getting into more of a policy review territory, but I think it's an important discussion to have. We need to have a shared notion of what we're trying to achieve.

Entry hazard setters often force in entry hazard removal. [...]This is very easy to take advantage of via U-turn.

This argument is somewhat persuasive. I could get behind hazard-setting if it was justified on these grounds.

 

[dex]

But is it really necessary for our pivot to set or remove the hazards itself? Why not leave that to CAP32's teammates, so we can focus on actually pivoting?

In order to be an effective pivot, you need to have some way to force switches. Entry hazards are an effective means of doing that. Giving CAP32 another way to force switches is a very valid way to boost its viability as a pivot. Read my post above to find out why! Anyone that has played in a metagame with entry hazards (so most metagames) knows how entry hazards can do this. Stealth Rock/Defog were a big reason that Landorus-T was such an effective pivot for so many years. You get in, do what you need to do, and get out. That is... sorta the whole point of being a pivot. If you are just mindlessly using a pivoting move, then you really aren't accomplishing much of anything. As I said, and I really do suggest you read a bit, entry hazards are a totally viable way to improve CAP 32's ability to be a pivot.

As for "it isn't original!!!!!!!!", I think we have done plenty to make CAP 32 quite the unique CAP. I don't see any Fire/Fairy types in the game. I don't see much pixilate in the CAP tier right now! With options like Boomburst and Extreme Speed on the table, I think this CAP will be plenty unique, and it already looks like this CAP will teach us quite a bit about how much stats really matter! The doomsaying in your post is not appreciated.

 

[mark6870]

The most crucial aspect of the argument that you (and others) have raised is that "an offensive pivot's main goal shouldn't be pivoting, but having good offensive pressure, capitalizing on forcing switches and also having the ability to pivot".

Pivots don't just click uturn. Pivots force switches. The KEY PART of a pivot is that it FORCES SWITCHES. If we make CAP32 a U-turn bot its A) going to be boring to pilot as you're just clicking Uturn all the time B) a bad pokemon and C) Contrary to what you think, a BAD PIVOT.
The paragraph I quoted literally explains what a good offensive pivot does better then I have. You're saying as if those attributes detract from them being a pivot when they are actually benefits!

 

[Sawyer.]

In order to be an effective pivot, you need to have some way to force switches. Entry hazards are an effective means of doing that. Giving CAP32 another way to force switches is a very valid way to boost its viability as a pivot. Read my post above to find out why!

If you haven't seen, dex, I acknowledged the validity of your point (that using hazards forces switches that can be capitalised on) in an edit to my last post. Comments like "I really do suggest you read a bit" aren't necessary, thanks!

Nevertheless, my preference has always been that offensive pressure is how CAP 32 should force switches. We have a great STAB combination with the potential to deliver both high-powered and priority-boosted attacks that we can capitalise on.

As for "it isn't original!!!!!!!!", I think we have done plenty to make CAP 32 quite the unique CAP. I don't see any Fire/Fairy types in the game. I don't see much pixilate in the CAP tier right now! With options like Boomburst and Extreme Speed on the table, I think this CAP will be plenty unique, and it already looks like this CAP will teach us quite a bit about how much stats really matter!

Perfectly fair, I think CAP 32 is on track to fulfil the "Bang Average" concept in an interesting way. My comments on originality only pertain to the offensive pivot role, as explained in my above posts.

 

[mark6870]

Nevertheless, my preference has always been that offensive pressure is how CAP 32 should force switches. We have a great STAB combination with the potential to deliver both high-powered and priority-boosted attacks that we can capitalise on.

it already does by virtue of its typing. Spikes and utility options are how we capatalize on those switches.

Giving cap32 hazards means it doesnt need to rely on its teammates for them. in fact, it frees up its teammates. it means a friendly Venomicon doesnt have to run Stealth Rock; a friendly Ting-Lu no longer needs to run both hazards and can run ruination and whirlwind on one set. It can capatalize on the switches it forces bt setting down hazards and making it so every time the enemy comes in it gets weaker, or they are forced to burn a turn using defog or rapid spin which CAP32 or its teammates can use to their advantage.

 

[Amamama]

I would love to see us commit to making CAP 32 a great pivot first and foremost, with a focus on creating opportunities for its teammates to come in safely.

Why though? Ye we picked the role to get more focus but ultimately the concept isn’t “make an offensive pivot first and foremost”.
If we deviate from that role in any way, even if we become a full on suicide lead or a bulky booster, so long as we create a Mon that can fully utilize an “average” stat spread, we have succeeded with the concept. The role is secondary to that.

It would be better at pivoting if it didn't use Spikes. The use of Spikes detracts from that role, but boosts Meowscarada's viability in other ways.

What move would be run here instead? What would make it better at forcing switches and capitalizing on them by chipping/crippling switch ins and positioning teammates?
Just bc spikes are utility and not immediate damage doesn’t mean they aren’t a way to offensively progress the game state.
Spikes isn’t just generically good it fits perfectly on Meow as an offensive pivot, bc it has great two move STAB coverage and a pivoting move paired with high speed, making it an almost untouchable spiker, that keeps momentum vs hazard removal and is great at chipping down the opposing team as well as cleaning itself in the end game

Fundamentally, pivoting means forcing switches and creating opportunities to bring in teammates safely. Since this was our concept

again it’s not the concept to make a pivot

Instead, I would prefer for us to design a Pokemon that pivots as much as possible and as effectively as possible.

that Mon exists already in multiple forms.
Genesect, Pheromosa, Scizor, Syclant all basically just click uturn on some sets.
They also all have superstrong stab uturn.
If the Mon is allowed to not click a pivoting move but only “offensive moves” that Mon still already exists in even more different versions.
Dragapult, Urshifu, Zeraora, Krilowatt, Tapu Koko, Magearna, Slowking, Syclant and Scizor (again) and many more already do that. I don’t see how basing ourselves off these examples is any more “original” than basing ourselves of other existing examples.

But if we load up its movepool with Rapid Spin, Spikes, and Knock Off, the incentive to actually pivot with it rapidly diminishes.

I Especially don’t get how Knock Off would not be the single best way to achieve the build you
have in mind, that goes for an All Out attacking approach to pivoting.
Knock on this Mon means it doesn’t need coverage, bc it will be able to immensely cripple the best switch ins to its stabs by removing their immunity to entry hazards and access to (higher) longevity, potentially bringing the switch ins into range for its strongest STAV attacks.

I’m Saying all of this bc tbh why are we even focusing on how these moves do or do not fulfill our role?
The purpose of this stage is to find moves, which are or might be important to build our stat spreads around.
The semantics of wether a move is good for a pivoting role or not is so whatever to this stage.
What we need to look at is: what are the highest impact moves, that are meaningfully going to influence our stats.
Movesets will be build in another stage AFTER we decided stats.

I mostly agree with DPM that the Defining moves list is a bit awkward at the moment and the way they restructured it here seems pretty good.
I would remove Pivoting moves entirely from the required list (not bc they shouldn’t be on the moveset) but bc I don’t see how they remotely are interesting for stat calcs seeing how two of them don’t even do damage and the other two aren’t boosted in any way. At most I could see Volt Switch staying as it is the most likely to do meaningful damage to switch ins.
I’d also like to see Boomburst in required.
For any other concept I’d say having it in optional is fine, since it’s an exceptional move, that might not be necessary on every spread. But considering our concept having an upper limit to see how far we can dump offenses seems like a good way to go imo.

 

[mark6870]

okok a few more opinions:

time to give shnow an aneurysm boys !

Now, this is NOT me saying Torch Song makes us a worse pivot. Literally the only user of Torch Song currently can be described as an defensive pivot as it comes in on a pokemon it walls, and forces switches. STOP SAYING ITS ANTI CONCEPT!!!

Anyways Im Not really a fan of Torch Song. Early on in the process we quickly agreed on that moves like Mystical Fire and Spirit Break are simply too weak for us to rely on. Torch Song is only 5 more base power. Obviously, the reason Torch Song still has fans is because it's a reliable way of boosting your damage output while also dealing damage. The thing is, that pressure A) goes away once you switch out, which as a pivot we are going to do a LOT, B) is neutralized by Unaware, of which there is an all-time-high in this metagame.

Like, Clicking Torch Song just invites in Skeledirge, Clodsire, (tera'd) Arghonaut, and Dondozo (if we don't get boomburst), Venom, and Garg, and they all force us out like the offensively-threatening-defensive-pivot shmucks they are.

It doesn't help that almost all of the Unaware pokemon already check us naturally. I'd rather go for more permanent pressure in Knock or Spikes and have a Fire stab that's stronger initially.

Obviously, replacing Torch Song with a stronger Fire STAB won't fix the issue (although it would force Venom to spend its roosts more which is good), but I'd rather just click Spikes or Knock to be more permanently threatening. CAP32 using Spikes/Knock + Armor Cannon or Fire Blast pressures not just its checks but most Pokemon more effectively than Torch Song, and I think trading our ability to clean late-game for that is just better TBH. (It's not like we suddenly are unable to do it either.)


TLDR; torch song not anti concept but too initially weak for CAP32

 

[shnowshner]

Alright, work week finished and maybe two portions of Easter dinner later and I think I'm in the right headspace to wrap things up. Here's our finalized Defining Moves list.

Required:

• If Physical/Mixed: Extreme Speed, Double-Edge, Flare Blitz/Heat Crash
• If Special/Mixed: Hyper Voice, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat
• At least one of: U-Turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot

Optional:

• Boomburst, Rapid Spin, Fire Lash, Knock Off, Will-o-Wisp, Taunt, 50% Recovery, Strength Sap, Stealth Rock, Spikes
• At most one of: Bitter Blade/Armor Cannon/Torch Song — Psychic Coverage/Electric Coverage

A good portion of posts have been hastily written up by me in my car before needing to work, so part of the reason the original list was so cluttered was that I didn't really have time to discuss internally, which is my fault. Thankfully, a handful of users (1, 2, 3) have taken that rough outline and put together their own proposals, which leads us to this updated version.

Those wanting to focus on one attacking bias only need to worry about STABs of that category, which greatly reduces the workload. Mixed variants will have more to figure out, but that's fair, given that a mixed spread with our limited stats is going to be a challenge to pull off. Pivot moves are the only other thing required as they are probably quite important, and nobody seems to disagree.

Yeah, the disallowing Rock coverage and including Power Gem was a mental lapse on my end. I would like to keep Fire-types as a "loose check" to us, not that every Fire is going to be a good answer, but the type can at least switch into one of our stabs outside of Dry Skin Mollux, and I feel that's important to preserve. Psychic and Electric have merit for certain builds but many of their targets either get hit neutrally by our other STAB or probably live somewhat comfortably anyhow (pex).

I debated having some mutual exclusivity with Torch Song and Boomburst given how dangerous this combo could be, but after discussing it with TLT we figured that anyone going this route should just build around it accordingly. You aren't obliged to use either, and will likely face heavy scrutiny if you do, so I don't see the harm in allowing them both.

This went on a bit longer and played out way more chaotic than I had planned and I do apologize for that, I was really banking on getting Saturday off for multiple reasons, and when that didn't happen it really soured things ups. We got there in the end though, and I am very confident in this list to help us in the next stages. I will now hand things off to spoo to close the thread and make any final remarks.

 

[spoo]