CAP 33 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[Samirsin]

:snom:
I support any combination that has Poison in it. The Poison type holds promising potential for CAP 33's design due to its unique blend of defensive and offensive characteristics. Poison-type walls often feature solid resistances to Grass, Fighting, Poison, Bug, and Fairy moves (looking at you :hemogoblin:) , providing a foundation for effective counters against common threats. Incorporating the Poison type could offer a narrowed defensive profile, enabling CAP 33 to excel in countering specific strategies. Moreover, Poison-type moves like Toxic and Venoshock align well with the concept's disruptive and control-oriented theme, allowing the wall to hinder opponents' strategies and apply consistent pressure. By emphasizing its unique utility moves and leveraging the Poison type's strengths, CAP 33 could create a dynamic and impactful presence in the metagame that complements its very fast immovable nature. And most importantly, it is immune to Toxic and can remove Toxic Spikes, which gives it great utility with its role of fast wall. Enters, removes them and switches out or cripples the opponent.

 

[Jewvia]

I think this is a good time to support Steel / Bug (Sniped but hey let's be the first to use the new supports instead of a submission)

I think that ideally, we would like to minimize the number of weaknesses we have while also having quite a few resists that we can switch into. Steel is always a popular typing for defensive oriented Pokemon, and Steel/Bug is exactly the combination that minimizes weaknesses, something that is much more valuable in the world of a fast wall. This typing has a pretty nice 8 resists, including to some core typings such as Fairy and Steel, as well as a valuable immunity to Poison and Toxic. While these are mostly benefits from our Steel typing, the choice of bug eliminates the weaknesses from Ground and Fighting, making our matchups with Pokemon such as Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, or just about anything running Earthquake much less of a worry. Offensively, the typing combination is admittedly weak, but Bug is not a complete dead weight if we do choose to bring Bug STAB, as it enables us to ward off bulky waters that would normally wall our steel type. We're also not weak to Stealth Rocks, so boots are not as mandatory as they are on many other bug typings as well.

- 4x Weak to Fire
- 2x Weak to -
- 0.5x Resist to Normal, Bug, Steel, Psychic, Ice, Dragon, Fairy
- 0.25x Resist to Grass
- 0x Immunity to Poison

 

[DrifblooomCF]

Im gonna be the bold one and give support to
steel/grass
One of the best deffensive types in the game, with only two weaknesess (albeit quite important) and an outstanding number of 9 resistances, this type is a juggernaut, including a very useful resistance to rock.
While neither type has incredibly strong moves, both have decent offensive profiles that we can work with.

 

[kenn]

I would like to throw support behind Water/Flying and Grass/Steel as well as mention another typing that CAPcord has spent a good chunk of time on discussing which is Water/Ground. Let's get into it!

Water/Flying
This typing has a serious amount of utility just based on the typing alone. Being able to have access to high powered STABs on both sides of the spectrum (albeit the physical side comes with recoil :/) means that this can easily threaten out certain Pokemon such as Great Tusk, Hemogoblin, Iron Moth (without Booster), Arghonaut, and Equilibra all while boasting key resistances to Fire and Fighting as well as a key immunity to Ground. While this particular typing doesn't have the "resistance profile" that a Steel or Fairy type combo might have, I like that this type combo brings a more offensive nature to the table. Being 4x weak to Electric, as well as our Rock weakness, does put us at the mercy of things like Zapdos and Caribolt (and potentially forces us to run Boots), but I believe we are destined to be faster and therefore can get out of that sticky situation versus them.

Grass/Steel
While DrifblooomCF did beat me to the punch on this one, I wanna most definitely accentuate why this typing is better, imo, than Bug/Steel. The main reason I like this one is we are resistant to Rock, and therefore Stealth Rock, and we boast a Water and Electric resistance which feels nifty especially if we end up outspeeding Krilowatt. As some of you may know, Krilowatt can be a pain for defensive teams so having this not only resist its STABs but also be faster can really help defensive teams ease their match up against the little shrimp. Having a decently powerful STAB move to threaten it with is nice as well. While this typing is weak to Fighting unlike Bug/Steel, I think it is worth the extra weakness for the utility that Grass can bring to the table.

Now for the typing I haven't seen mentioned yet...Water/Ground
This typing has 1 4x weakness to Grass, a very uncommon attacking type, and sports an Electric immunity while having a solid offensive STAB combo, which feels to me like it would be a good "middle of the pack" option to have offensive pressure with good STABs but held back by being neutral to most attacks. I'll elaborate more when I can, but just wanted to spark discussion here as CAPcord has brought this one up quite a few times and it seems like a neat option.

 

[Explosion Badger]

I'd like to throw Dragon/Fairy and Water/Fairy to the pool of ideas for a type.

Dragon/Fairy:

• Takes 2x from: Poison, Steel, Ice, Fairy
• Takes 1x from: Normal, Flying, Ground, Rock, Ghost, Psychic
• Takes 1/2x from: Fighting, Bug, Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Dark
• Takes 0x from: Dragon

Water/Fairy:

• Takes 2x from: Poison, Grass, Electric
• Takes 1x from: Normal, Flying, Ground, Rock, Ghost, Steel, Psychic, Fairy
• Takes 1/2x from: Fighting, Bug, Fire, Water, Ice, Dark
• Takes 0x from: Dragon

The main appeal of both of these is that Fairy typing, which allows for us to take on many of the Dragon and Fighting types in the tier as well as absorbing Knock Off and U-Turn, and also gives us a strong spammable STAB to utilize in the form of Moonblast. Both typings also grant us resistance against Fire and Water attacks, meaning that overall we can check many mons such as Walking Wake, Roaring Moon, Great Tusk, Cinderace, Samurott-Hisui, and more with either typing. Both types also give us access to spammable STAB options, such as Wave Crash and Draco Meteor.

There are important differences to note with both types, though. Water/Fairy has a better matchup into the Steel, Ice and Fairy types of the meta, meaning that it can handle relevant mons such as Baxcalibur and Hemogoblin better. However, Dragon/Fairy notably resists the Grass and Electric type moves Water/Fairy is weak to, allowing it to deal with the likes of Zapdos, Caribolt and Malaconda better. Both typings have their strengths and weaknesses, and I'd love to hear some discussion on them to see which one other people prefer.

When it comes to other typings I support, Bug/Steel and Grass/Steel are both cool as they both offer the Steel type a neutrality to Ground, and minimize the amount of types Steel takes super effective damage from while each having unique traits, such as an Ice Resistance from Bug/Steel and Water and Electric resistances from Grass/Steel. While both are somewhat lacking in terms of power STABs to spam, both have their own utility options that can allow for greater longevity or provide support to the rest of the team.

 

[Pipotchi]

I think Water/Fairy stands out above the other typings here.

This typing is great as a fast wall for a few reasons. not only is it an ideal defensive typing in general, it also has superb neutral matchups into faster Pokemon. it has a wide range of supportive stab attacks with effects like pivoting, stat drops, status, as well as high BP choices to leverage low offensive stats. With low attacking stats, it can hit a good few fast mons for super effective dmg which really limits their gameplay choices against a mon that outspeeds them. Being such a great standalone type means it doesnt need to rely on abilities to bolster attacks or resists, meaning it has a wide range of defensive abilities available to it for this project.

While its not essential to base a typing on its matchups against fast pokemon- having a really valuable speed tier that outspeeds key, hard-to-outspeed offensive mons and not being able to switch in on them really neutralizes a lot of the interactions that this concept could be having. Water/Fairy has such a nice typing into these higher speed tier mons because it usually stays in the neutral or better category.
Being hazard neutral and u-turn resistant is another great benefit here, because getting u-turned to death will absolutely happen.

Key fast Pokemon that this typing checks or counters:

:astrolotl: :dragapult: :greninja: :iron-valiant: :kerfluffle: :roaring-moon: :stratagem: :syclant: :voodoom: :zamazenta::cinderace:

note a couple of these, valiant, strata, cinderace do carry super effective coverage, but for the most part this mon has fully resistant/neutral switchins into the majority of these pokemon which are all at/over 110 speed. It also hits 8 of these 11 pokemon super effectively, which greatly relieves the need for high offensive stats. These are the remaining mons at/over 110 lol:

:cawmodore: :iron-moth: :kitsunoh: :sneasler: :meowscarada:

Aside from this, we already know that water/fairy is a great general defensive typing, walling really crucial mons like Baxcalibur, Walking Wake, etc and being a great offensive stab combo. And that's why I think this typing is pretty on-point for this concept.

I think other types have decent explorations too, but I always like to suggest what I think leads the concept off on the strongest possible foot. Other suggestions do have standout problems like hazard weakness, uturn weakness, and problems with damage output that this typing doesnt. Fixing up some of those issues down the line might mean having to dedicate an ability to it, or steering more into looser stat allocations or sloppier movepools as seen in the past, all of which can kinda detract from the project.

Tldr: while also being an incredible standalone typing, it also allows for the most interaction with the concept, which is of massive importance.

 

[mark6870]

I suggest Dragon / Poison

Dragalge (ignoring abilities):
Weaknesses: Dragon, Ground, Ice, Psychic
Resistances: Bug, Electric, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Poison, Water
Immunities: Toxic

The main benefits here are the long list of resistances (namely water, electric, and fire) and the Poison immunity. It fully walls Iron Moth and has a solid matchup into Hemogoblin (save for tera ground.) It should also note that, being a poison type, it is likely to have access to the spammable Sludge Bomb as STAB, and Toxic as utility. The problem is the ground weakness leaving it vulnerable to Great Tusk and the Dragon weakness leaving vulnerable to Dragapult's Dragon Darts or Draco. Overall, a neutral enough type with solid resistances.


I also support Bug / Poison, actually.
Beedrill (ignoring abilities):
Weaknesses: Fire, Flying, Psychic, Rock
Resistances: Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Grass, Poison
Immunities: Toxic

Weaknesses to Fire, Flying, and Rock are problematic, yes, but other than that the type chart is fairly neutral. It has a positive* matchup into Great Tusk, Sneasler, and Jumbao quad resisting fighting and grass, resisting fairy and being neutral into ground, while having solid neutral defensive matchups to a lot of threats, such as Gholdengo, Dragapult, Roaring Moon, Hamurott, and non tera-fly Kingambit. Just as Dragon/Poison before it, it has access to Sludge Bomb and Toxic as valuable tools in its kit.

*the elephant in the room is Knock Off. A lot of pokemon that Bug / Poison should be good into such as great tusk, meowscrada, and iron valiant, commonly run Knock Off. and Knock of Fucking Sucks for a bug/poison CAP33.

 

[chartung17]

I support Electric, either on its own or in combination with something else. Electric is a decent defensive typing, with three resistances and only one weakness, which is good for a wall. It also has two unique characteristics which make it especially good for a fast wall:

• It's immune to paralysis, so its speed advantage cannot be removed by status
• It can potentially remove its one weakness through the use of a fast Magnet Rise

Obviously the second point depends on movepool; there's no guarantee that an Electric-type CAP33 would learn Magnet Rise.

I also like combinations including Poison, but I don't have much to say on that which hasn't already been said (except that Electric/Poison is a great defensive combination with 8 resistances and only 2 weaknesses).

 

[Fenghuang]

I like ground immunities or resists, there is a ton of ground type moves being thrown around in the current meta and some protection or immunity to them is nice. At least not being weak would be a minimum for me. I also like types not weak to fairy or fighting, being two other common attack types in the current meta. None of these are strict, of course.

To this end, some of my favorites are Bug/Steel Steel/Grass, and Flying/Water. Bug/Steel has the benefit of not being fighting weak, while Steel/Grass has the benefit of resisting rocks and water and electric. Flying/Water has the coveted ground immunity and few weaknesses, while sporting a wide range of neutralities. Fairy/Water has a similar profile, but I like Flying/Water quite a bit more.

I think that the dragon type is a big of a trap option here. Dragon/Fairy's weakness to fairy, steel, and ice gives it poor matchups against the things it would want to check, and Dragon/Steel has only two weaknesses in Ground and Fighting but those weaknesses are extremely common. Dragon/Poison is a bit nicer especially if paired with an ability that mitigates the ground weakness, but I just don't think its particular defensive profile is all that great.

One big advantage of steel and poison type is the natural immunity to Toxic, the Wall's natural predator. I think that this is maybe somewhat less of an issue with the litany of ability and moveset options to mitigate a toxic vulnerability, but it is definitely nice to not have to worry about it.


I have a few other minorly nifty ideas, I don't think any of them are better than the ones above but some come close.

Flying

Monoflying has a number of cute traits that make it fitting for a fast bulky mon. Firstly, fast roost allows it to drop all its weaknesses and gain a ghost immunity. Secondly, resistance to ground and fighting and a wide range of neutralities leaves it with a very flexible defensive setup. I think I like it slightly less than water/flying, but only slightly.

Ghost/Normal

Another type with a lot of neutralities, but this time sporting two cool immunities to fighting and ghost and one somewhat irrelevant immunity to normal.

 

[IronTemplar]

First, I wanna say I'm really looking forward to this one. Love myself a wall

Second, I wanna give my full support to anything even mentioning Steel at all. It's been my favourite type for a very long time. Can't really sound original here, since I would absolutely back any of them, especially given the good people that mentioned them.

Rather than entering Dragon/Steel this time (since I WILL be using Archaludon!), I will instead submit Electric/Steel. While the obvious move is not guaranteed, it poses several advantages in the form of paralysis immunity, poison immunity, and HUGE defensive coverage

With all that said, thank you. Let's have fun on this one. Fully loaded heavy metal, baby

 

[bigtibba]

There's been a lot of talk about Water/Fairy, so I won't go as in depth as some of the other commenters, but I'll provide some quick thoughts on the typing.

Firstly, I think a strong defensive Fairy with reliable recovery is sorely lacking in the current metagame. I may not speak for everyone on this, but I feel like several Dragons are too centralizing at the moment and may require multiple checks to not instantly lose on team preview. Walking Wake and Baxcalibur are the big ones, but Dragons such as Roaring Moon and Dragapult can also be extremely annoying to deal with.

In terms of secondary typing, I really like Poison/Fairy for the poison immunity, but my personal preference is Water/Fairy. I feel that there are already several defensive Poison types as it is. Additionally, Ground types are common in the current metagame. Water also grants key weaknesses to Ice, Fire, and Water, as well as providing a Steel neutrality when dealing with Kingambit.

Dragon/Fairy also seems fun, but admittedly it may fall under the umbrella of choosing unique typings over useful typings.

 

[SHSP]

some quick thoughts on stuff that's been talked about so far-

I really don't get the electric pairings. Really, I'm not seeing what electric adds to the build outside of some really specific typings (flying). You get barely any resists (and of the three, one really barely matters), and for it you gain a weakness to one of the more prevalent types in the game in Ground. The paralysis immunity thing also rings kind of hollow to me- yeah, we'd like to hold onto our speed, but it's not exactly equatable to a fast offensive mon getting para'd and dealt with significantly easier. We'd still be a tank.

On the opposite end, I think most of the water type pairings are pretty solid. Bulky water is a really good starting point for a fat mon- shocking, I know! Even still, there's very valid reasons for it, both in the current meta and just as a mon overall. Of them, I'm leaning towards water/ground more than the rest, though I think that's mostly personal preference and the vast majority of water type pairings will have pros and cons that lend themselves to personal preference. It's hard to look past either of Poison or Steel typings as well, in great part to the Toxic immunity both share which is always a huge plus for a tank sort of mon.

The typing I'm almost most curious about is anything Dragon, currently. I really want to like dragon pairings, they start from a place of having some really good resistances that I value a lot (fire, water, electric to an extent)- but my big hangup is Fairy. Thinking more about it, though, I'm not entirely convinced being Fairy weak on a fast tank is too rough of a starting point: of the popular fairies, a lot of them are far from the hardest hitters at neutral (Hatterene, arguably Goblin isn't doing that much without BU investments), and there are a lot of helpful fairy resists for teams already like Libra.

 

[snake]

Steel/Grass is an excellent typing, as seen in previous generations with Ferrothorn and Kartana, and I think there's more room to work with this typing beyond those two previous examples. Notably, as a fast wall, it would have a very positive matchup into Krilowatt, which many teams would appreciate. STAB Grass-type attacks are actually quite nice to have, meaning you can pressure defensive staples like Arghonaut, Garganacl, and Great Tusk. The neutrality to Ice is a bit unfortunate into Baxcaliber, and the offensive coverage is a bit poor, but the right utility moves and ability can make up for this. I also like that the large number of Fire-type pokemon in the metagame can keep this pokemon in check.

On the other hand, Steel/Bug is similar to Steel/Grass, but it trades a better matchup into Krilowatt for a better matchup into Fighting-type moves from Zamazenta and Iron Valiant. The offensive coverage is notably poorer, though, and being Stealth Rock neutral instead of resistant doesn't help. I think between the two, I prefer Steel/Grass because the Fighting-type resistance that Bug brings is less vital than the qualities that Grass brings to the table. It's still quite a good typing, though - the only Bug typing that's really worth considering.

Water/Fairy is, unsurprisingly, a strong typing. Fairy is probably the most spammable type in the game, and throwing out Water-type moves in this metagame is great, even if they're weak. The amount that the metagame is prepared for Fairy-types - due to Hemogoblin - is probably the biggest hit to this typing's favor. It's a solid typing that will set up the CAP for success - in large part because it's two of strongest typings in the game compared.

Dark/Fairy is a bit weaker defensively but makes up for having pretty much the two most spammable stabs on command, which means that this typing will not be terribly passive. Compared to a pure Fairy-type, it has a better matchup into Galarian Slowking, Hoopa-U, Dragapult, and Gholdengo. While the Fairy-type weakness is unfortunate, checks to opposing Fairy-types are not in short supply in this metagame. Solid typing that would lead towards more of a Talonflame build than a Scream Tail build.

Steel/Fairy is the strongest typing in the game overall, even in the context of this metagame. Add one good utility move and suddenly it checks half of the metagame by itself - it just needs better stats than Tinkaton does. Like Water/Fairy, it seems like the "obvious" answer, and it would eat a lot into our power budget, but sometimes the obvious answer is just the right answer.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I'm a fan of a range of the types submitted so far with broad resists and defensive profiles, some stand outs I believe are Water/Fairy, Water/Flying, Dark/Fairy and Grass/Steel. I like that these types have some relevant resists and a broad spate of neutralities. Weaknesses are fairly exploitable at times, but interact well with Speed, in that many common Electric, Rock, Fairy, Fighting and Fire attacks come from generally slower Pokemon at a maximum of say the 110 rage. I believe the offensive options of the first three are also positive, but not dealbreaking as Steel/Grass doesn't quite lean into this. As we have previously discussed, many walls do get by with non-STAB attacks. Many of these types have received support already so I don't have a massive amount left to add that's interesting about them, but to say Dark has some particularly interesting implications with preventing Prankster, and a really nice STAB in Foul Play that can circumvent its own anticipated lack of offenses.

As for types that haven't been mentioned yet or discussed in depth, here are three I'd like to support.

Dark/Flying is a well balanced neutral typing with some awesome resists, helpful immunities and solid offensive potential for a wall to have. As covered by other Dark pairings, potential access to STAB Knock Off and Foul Play give this type the ability to be relatively threatening and disruptive without needing offensive investment, and with the anticipated High Speed, give us very nice interactions with the many Ghosts in the tier. Flying is a nice compliment to Dark, similarly to Fairy, because it balances out the Great Tusk interaction, offering a threatening stab, neutrality to Fighting STAB, and importantly an immunity to Headlong Rush. The most glaring downside to this pairing is being Rocks weak and thus Boots reliant, although as Water/Flying has also covered, not completely crippling, especially considering the immunity to Spikes persists. It's also somewhat vulnerable to Hemogoblin which isn't fantastic, but I'm sure Tera and clever teambuilding can overcome this, indeed so could some abilities, if it's deemed important.

Now for some types that are markedly different in style and approach. As was discussed earlier and in concept assessment. Traditionally not amazing defensive typings can carry walls through having overwhelming neutral matchups.

Normal/Ghost has been brought up by Fenghuang, and with good reason. Three immunities is nothing to sneeze at, and only one weakness in Dark, a typing which while admittedly quite common or ubiquitous in the meta, is not always on faster Pokemon. Resists to Bug and Poison aren't amazing, but do carry some utility in minimising U-Turn chip. Indeed, although a different style of Pokemon entirely, Dragapult shows that fast Ghosts can circumvent a lot of their weaknesses. Ghost offers a fairly spammable STAB for a wall to carry because of its neutral coverage. Spin blocking however is one of the best things this type offers, Great Tusk being unable to either Spin or hit with Fighting Stab gives Normal/Ghost tons of opportunities to come in and sit.

Normal/Psychic is quite similar to Normal/Ghost in some ways, but is broadly worse defensively in that there is no immunity to Fighting, only a Neutrality, an additional weakness to Bug, and only one resist in Psychic. What this typing does offer instead is some niche additional offensive presence that interacts with some of the common walls and offensive Pokemon in the tier. Indeed as quite a few of our fast walls, and Slowtwins, have shown in other tiers across the gens, the Psychic typing can be useful to leverage to force switches with strong neutral moves like Psychic and Psyshock, and set up with Future Sight. As strange as it may sound, one of the best aspects of Normal/Psychic is that its lack of intrinsic specialising would allow it to eat up less of our power budget, and could really encourage more interesting abilities and stats, and will really come in to its own in the move stages, where the strength and utility of many Psychic moves can be explored.

 

[wauknay84]

I think poison is a great type for our speedy wall for the obvious immunity to toxic and general defensive utility. The chipping down of a wall is a big problem and as we know, toxic is a common chipping tool for taking down big defensive mons. One worry gone would go a long way to reaching a successful wall. With psychic and ground being the only weaknesses it has, its relatively easy to cover for. Psychic is not much of a worry, but ground attacks are relatively common. They can be covered for by flying, but I feel there may be a problem with that, with one of the premier threats in Venomicon already having that typing. We may not want to go down this route for fear of covering already tread ground, with Venomicon already being a wall in that typing.
If we are worried about a ground weakness, I think Grass would be a preferred partner type. We would gain ice fire and flying weaknesses, as well as lose a poison resist. But in exchange, we gain resistance to water, electric, a x4 resistance to grass, and lose our ground weakness. A fair trade in my eyes. This certainly leaves Grass/Poison with some exploitable weaknesses but a slew of useful resistances to balance them out. Grass would also open up the door for a lot of useful utility moves later on in the process which could help fill a very useful niche. For these reasons I am supporting both Poison and Grass/Poison.

Fire is a seldomly utilized defensive typing, but it carries some useful resistances in fire, steel, fairy, grass, ice, and bug. Some of these are definitely more useful than others, but a type with a wide variety of resistances provides it with ample opportunity to switch in and tank hits when neccesary. Fire will also provide an immunity to burns, which, while not as potent as toxic, can still whittle down a wall over time. Immunity to burns also would come in handy should our fast wall end up with a physical attacking bias. Fire is a relatively strong offensive type as well, providing it nice STAB option. Flying pairs wonderfully with fire, changing fire's ground weakness into an immunity, and giving the combo 2 quad resistances to bug and grass, as well as standard resistance to fire, fighting, steel, and fairy, leaving weaknesses to water and electric, with an unfortunate quad weakness to rock. While fire and flying leave a big vulnerability to stealth rocks, the number of resistances this combination provides is very strong, and to my knowledge actual rock attacks are seldom seen in the current metagame outside a few obvious users. There are certainly notable threats capable of exploiting fire/flying's other weaknesses, but a large portion of the strongest mons are either resisted or at least only hitting fire/flying for neutral. Hitting once again on the glaring issue of stealth rocks, if we believe this to be too big of a threat to this CAP, it is certainly an issue that can be addressed in later stages, but alternatively, a premier wall having a very predictable item slot can be a boon to check its potential power. That said, Fire/Flying gets my support, and is the most appealing option to me specifically.

Dragon is also a type I've had my eye on. It has an interesting and useful set of resistances and is also relatively underutilized as a defensive type. However, I think the fairy and dragon weaknesses of mono dragon would end up being a huge issue. Being able to mitigate one of them would be preferable, which led me to lean towards poison and fairy as partner typings. Poison I talked about plenty above, and all the same benefits fit here as well. Fairy, however, would allow a dragon/fairy wall to face off against other dragons it comes across, as well as resist the powerful dark attacks on top of the many resistances it already has. Resisting fire, water, electric, grass, fighting, bug and dark, and an immunity to dragon, while being weak to steel, poison, ice, and fairy is a great tradeoff to me. I support both Poison/Dragon and Fairy/Dragon.


So, in summation, I am putting my support behind the following types in general:
Poison, Fire, and Dragon

As well as specifically behind the type combos:
Mono Poison, Grass/Poison, Dragon/Poison, Dragon/Fairy, and especially Fire/Flying

 

[sun_dew]

From what I've seen so far, I would like to support Ghost/Normal, Grass/Steel, and Water/Fairy. Going over each briefly:

• Ghost/Normal is of course desirable for its three potent immunities and limited weaknesses.
• Grass/Steel is an incredible typing that has seen great success in Ferrothorn with a Poison immunity and an immunity to powder and spore moves.
• Water/Fairy puts two of the best defensive typings in the game together to great effect.

Other than already mentioned types, I would like to throw my support behind Electric/Flying.
Defensively, there are a lot of benefits to this typing:

• Only two weaknesses in Ice and Rock
• Resistances against Bug, Fighting, Flying, Grass, and Steel
• An immunity to Ground

Additionally, being a fast, bulky Flying-type, there is the interesting possibility of using Roost before the opponent can act in order to remove both of the type's weaknesses, though of course we may not have access to roost depending on movepool. The main issue with this type is that it would cause us to heavily compete with Zapdos, which may not be ideal.

 

[StarFalcon555]

Hey guys! You know how Zapdos is so good in this current meta???? You know what would be more awesome than one Zapdos???? TWO ZAPDOS!!!!! (Zapdoes? Zapdoeses???) WOWZA!!!!

In case the cringe distracted you guys for what I was building up to, I'm throwing my support in the ring for Electric/Flying.

As Zapdos has shown us in this meta, Electric/Flying is an insanely good defensive typing that resists a key number of core threats in the metagame. Most notably is its combined immunity to Ground and resistance to Fighting, which allows it to stonewall the ever present Great Tusk, as well as handle other top threats of these typings like Equilibra, Arghonaut, and Zamazenta. Other key resistances include those to Steel, Flying, Grass, and Bug, allowing it to wall other key threats like Kingambit, Venomicon (two of the S-ranks!!!), Malaconda, and Miasmaw. On the offensive side, both Electric and Flying moves hit a good number of threats in the metagame for SE damage, with the former dealing with mons like Venomicon, Hisuian Samurott, and Toxapex while the latter handles mons like Sneasler, Iron Valiant, and Great Tusk. Since our STAB combo hits so many threats, we can easily run one-attack slots to allow for much utility as possible while still scaring potential threats out.

The other main benefit of Electric/Flying is that it has very few weaknesses. Specifically, it only has two: Rock and Ice. While a Stealth Rock weakness isn't the most ideal weakness to have, especially for a wall, when you take into account how many resistances, immunities, and neutralities we have, the Stealth Rock weakness is essentially what balances this typing out. Zapdos is still a premier defensive wall in both OU and CAP despite this Stealth Rock weakness, and in general, being weak to Stealth Rock does not mean that you can be a good wall - just look at Talonflame in UU, which has a quad weakness to Stealth Rock and still manages to be a fairly high-ranked utility wall.

And just to address the elephant in the room - Zapdos being so good in CAP doesn't mean that a CAP 33 with this typing will be outclassed by or be forced to compete with Zapdos. By the nature of our concept alone, we are guaranteed to have excellent defensive stats and an excellent Speed stat. Zapdos's stat spread is much more heavily geared towards Special Attack, and its bulk and speed are a lot different from what we will be aiming for with CAP 33 - 90/85/90 bulk and 100 Speed look solid on paper, but are sorely outclassed by other walls and speedsters in the tier. Even now, Zapdos is primarily used as an offensive pivot, as that is where its strengths lie best. We've already determined that we will be playing a much different role from Zapdos, so I fully believe that an Electric/Flying CAP 33 can not only coexist alongside Zapdos, but thrive in the metagame and act as a viable counterpick to Zapdos.

To finish this post off, a quick rundown of my thoughts on other types, because this is getting long

Types I like:

Water/Ground: Probably my second favorite type combination aside from Electric/Flying, and one I was heavily considering making a post on myself. The sheer endurance of viability for mons like Quagsire, Gastrodon, and Swampert show just how effective of a defensive juggernaut this typing truly is, and I think it'll work wonderfully on CAP 33.

Dragon/Fairy: This was a typing I was a HUGE fan of during the typing discussion for Hemogoblin's process, so I'm happy to see that it's made a return as a strong contender in this process. It's just such a solid typing all around with so many key resistances. The weaknesses to Poison, Steel, and Dragon do worry me, considering as all three of our current S-ranks have those types, but the positives far outweigh the negatives here.

Grass/Steel: The Ferrothorn copium is strong within us Jokes aside, this is just an extremely strong defensive typing all around, and for good reason. So many resistances, including a Stealth Rock resistance and an immunity to Toxic, make this a no-brainer choice for a wall.

Types I dislike:

Dark/Fairy: Ending things off on a bit of a hot take. This typing looks very cool on paper, and I was extremely excited about it myself! ...And then I took a look at the viability rankings, and I realized that wow, this type actually sucks balls into most of the big threats!!!! This would make us a Dark type that cannot reliably check Kingambit, Galarian Slowking, and Gholdengo due to our weaknesses to Poison and Steel, and we also match up horribly into many other top threats, like Hemogoblin, Equilibra, Iron Valiant, Iron Moth, and Heatran. I do realize that Dragon/Fairy also has similar problems, but it's balanced out by the Dragon typing helping to make up for these weaknesses - most notably sporting a Fire resistance to help with Hemogoblin, Iron Moth, and Heatran - and the lack of the Dark typing giving it more key resistances, particularly that Fighting resist. It does allow us to wall Dragapult, but that's basically the only thing it does. I'd love to have my mind changed on this, because it is a cool type, but as it stands now, I just think it falls flat. I've seen a lot of people supporting it due to how good the dual STABs are, which is certainly good and all, but I feel like Electric/Flying does a much better job of that while also matching up into the current meta a lot better.

thanks for coming to my TED talk guys hope you all have a good day :333

 

[boomp]

Water/Flying is what i would go for as my inspiration came from how good of a wall Mantine was. 5 resists that are bug, water, fighting, steel, and fire and ground immunity just to top it off would make it a terrifying wall to go against. This mon could literally be what if Mantine was just faster. :D In my experience of playing in the tours and just seeing overall usage or dominate mons its good to say that Hemogoblin, Great Tusk , Equilibra and Arghonaut are mons that this typing combination can greatly deal with. Adding as well it can have access to good STAB moves like scald and hurricane that can cripple them with the likes of burn or confusion can turn the tides of a game. Not alot of things will be able to threaten it unless its electric or rock which is still avoidable because you can just easily tera. Also since it'll be a fast wall it can outspeed the threats that i mention above forcing them to switch out or to chip them for decent damage. :)

 

[Fenghuang]

a thought I figured I should pen:

There are basically three things that make a type what it is: what it resists, what it is neutral to, and what it is weak to. The former two determines what it can wall, the latter what can break through its armor. If we assume that neutralities can be made up for in higher bulk, the major things we want to look out for are few weaknesses and secondarily other nicities. I am going to list all types with one weakness, alongside other bonuses they have, in what I think is best to worst.

Bug/Steel
[Weak: Fire
Resist: Normal, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Bug, Flying, Steel, Fairy.
Notes: 4x weakness, 4x resist to grass, poison immunity, Toxic immunity]

Water/Ground
[Weak: Grass.
Resist: Fire, Poison, Electric, Rock, Steel.
Notes: Stealth Rock resist, Electric immunity, 4x weakness]

Normal/Ghost
[Weak: Dark.
Resist: Ghost, Normal, Fight, Bug, Poison.
Notes: Ghost, Normal, Fighting immunity]

Poison/Dark
[Weak: Ground.
Resist: Grass, Poison, Psychic, Ghost, Dark.
Notes: Psychic Immunity, Toxic immunity]

Ghost/Dark
[Weak: Fairy.
Resist: Normal, Fighting, Psychic, Poison.
Notes: Normal, Fighting, Psychic immunity]

Normal
[Weak: Fighting.
Resist: Ghost.
Notes: Ghost immunity]

Electric
[Weak: Ground.
Resist: Flying, Steel, Electric.
Notes: Paralysis immunity]


Firstly, I don't want this to be taken to mean that only these types are viable (my favorite types are actually Grass/Steel and Water/Flying) but that these are all, in my opinion, at least somewhat interesting for this one specific trait. This leads into my second point, that the Notes section is important. Immunities are important, particularly toxic immunity, and there are other notable features like good STAB or offensive typing that isn't captured by this chart. I wonder if we sometimes get too caught up in resistances though. Key resistances are definitely nice, but a wide range of neutralities and high natural bulk could also be really good if built properly.

 

[viol and bass]

I'd like to suggest people take a closer look at Mono-Poison. It has some of the most useful resists in the game and very constrained weaknesses in Psychic and Ground. You can view this typing as a "broadly neutral" build but with several really relevant resistances and an immunity to the poison status. It's quite similar to Poison/Fairy overall, but it has enough strengths to be interesting on a defensive pokemon. It can serve as a team’s toxic spikes absorber, and Poison's Fighting and Fairy resists are extremely nice into threats like Iron Valiant and Hemogoblin. It has a few other useful resists. But ultimately you're going to be taking neutral hits in many matchups, such as vs. Dragapult, Gholdengo, and Kingambit. This is one advantage over Poison/Fairy: you don't take super effective damage from Steel moves which improves the matchup with Gholdengo for instance.

Lacking a secondary STAB is the main disadvantage over other dual-typings, but for instance with Poison/Fairy you're likely not running both since you still lack a way to hit poisons or steels. It feels like based on what we've discussed so far, a mono-typing is actually a really viable approach here. Poison is known for having really impressive STAB options with utility, and while you don't have a STAB to hit Steels with, that can quite easily be ameliorated with coverage or utility options. We're definitely not doomed to passivity with this typing. For inspiration, you can look at something like Garbodor or Weezing.

I think Grass/Poison is also a really neat typing. You maintain the fighting and fairy resists, but you have a ground neutrality, while grass STAB potentially allows you to chunk things like Tusk and Garg, and water and electric resists help you switch into something like Krilowatt. It has a nice set of tools for a fast wall.

I'd also like to support Bug/Steel. This typing will have a lot of neutral matchups, but that's fine and even desirable, it just requires a bit of bulk to make work. I think the neutrality to Fighting potentially gives it an edge over Grass/Steel, although I realize there are tradeoffs and either of them would be a very good typing for this project.

Lastly, Water/Fairy is hard to argue against. It's one of the most objectively powerful typings for our role, and matches up extremely well into a lot of the meta. It even has potent STABs as a cherry on top.

 

[Brown4Sides]

Here's a typing I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet considering it was talked about in the Discord a bit: Fire/Flying. This typing is very similar to Water/Flying. They share key resists/immunities in Fire and Ground. This allows Fire/Flying to take on Cinderace, Great Tusk, Equilibra, Ting-Lu, Enamorus, and Malaconda. The biggest boon Fire/Flying has over Water/Flying though is the Fairy resist, allowing it to perfectly counter Hemogoblin. Not even the Spikes it sets up can stop it! Also, like Water/Flying, it's a Flying type not weak to Great Tusk's Ice Spinner. Between Fire/Flying and Water/Flying, I think I like the latter a bit more, because on Fire/Flying the item reliance is definitely worse. However, it is still a good typing that certainly has merits worth considering. Considering how good Moltres has become in OU, imagine how good a Fire/Flying CAP 33 would be in a Hemogoblin meta.

Also wanted to discuss Electric/Flying. I think StarFalcon555 made a pretty good post on it, however, although I'm kinda torn on it, I'm leaning toward it not being worth pursuing, as Zapdos is a relevant defensive Pokemon with a fairly high speed stat for its role. StarFalcon addresses this problem, which I appreciate, and I'll admit, we definitely CAN make an Electric/Flying CAP 33 fast wall distinct from Zapdos. However, this would mean we would have to put a lot of extra effort into the rest of the process to try to differentiate ourselves from Zapdos, which might limit discussion. I don't know if that's worth it. If Zapdos wasn't in the meta I would absolutely support this typing, but sadly that is not the case.

I don't like Grass/Poison. Pretty much everything that this typing is supposed to beat has ways around it. You're a Fairy resist until Hemogoblin clicks Bitter Blade, and you're a Water resist until Walking Wake clicks Flamethrower, and let's be honest, it's probably doig 80% minimum with Draco Meteor. The typing is also weak to a lot of common threats like Venomicon, Galarian Slowking, and any of the numerous Fire types.

May add this post with more takes later.

 

[quziel]

EDIT: Corrected effective BP due to a mistake I made; the text may be wrong but the charts are right.

Hey, sorta prototyping an analysis method, but trying to score typings based on how many mons can hit it for less than 100 BP, 150 BP, and 200 BP, those being the thresholds of "neutral EQ", "STAB EQ", "SE EQ". This is under the idea that if a mon cannot hit you with anything more than a non-stab coverage move, it probably loses to you, if it can hit you with a neutral mid-high BP stab you're probably at an advantage, and if it can hit you with a SE coverage move, or a high BP stab you probably aren't amazing into it. I did this analysis, as well as calculating the average BP across all mons, as well as the average BP, ignoring anything above 300 BP for Ground/Water. Don't worry too much about the "score" as that's just weighting based on high rank mons.

Typing 1:	Typing 2:
Water	Ground
Score_100	40	N_100	7
Score_150	145.0833333	N_150	33.41666667
Score_200	259	N_200	64
Mean BP	197.151176471	BP_Ceil	167.816532191

As ya can see, this typing walls a fair number of mons pretty hard, shoutouts to the following:
Hard Wall Eff BP <= 100 (Offensive only): Utility Cinderace :cinderace:, Dragonite :dragonite:, Heatran :heatran:, Astrolotl :astrolotl:,
Now I should note that Dnite, by virtue of using low BP moves without initial STAB, is gonna be a false positive in this analysis.
Positive Matchup BP <=150 (Offensive Only): Kingambit :kingambit:, Defensive Great Tusk :great-tusk:, Krilowatt :krilowatt:, Gholdengo :gholdengo:, CM Valiant :iron-valiant:, Samurott-Hisui :samurott-hisui:, Enamorus :enamorus:, Hoopa-Unbound :hoopa-unbound:, CB Roaring Moon :roaring-moon:, ...

There's a lot here honestly, you can see the analysis spits out 33 mons that this typing has a postitive matchup into, in that they can't hit it super hard beyond neutral STABs. The fractions are because sometimes you check one set and not hte other. The effective BP this mon faces is also at 120, which tracks as it's often taking medium BP stabs, or resisted hits.

-------
Do contrast with a typing I've seen brought up in the discord a bit, Fire/Dark doesn't perform nearly as well according to these metrics.

Typing 1:	Typing 2:
Fire	Dark
Score_100	25.5	N_100	6.5
Score_150	66.41666667	N_150	16.91666667
Score_200	223.4166667	N_200	55.41666667
Mean BP	216.382827374	BP_Ceil	203.261622418

While it gets a lot of leverage out of being a very solid check into Kingambit, and being fine into Dragapult, that's lowkey where it ends. A lot of mons in the meta are carrying Earth Power, Earthquake, or Focus Blast, and those really show. The average mon has about 25 more BP when its facing Fire/Dark than Water/Ground, and while you hard wall about as many mons as Water/Ground, you have a positive matchup into far fewer. I can see this being functional, but damn if a lot of mons don't just hit it with SE EQ or SE EP in the current meta. I may edit in one more typing once I think of one, but yeah.

-----

Generally I'm in favor of Water/Ground, Water/Flying, and Poison/Dark.

-----

Edit:

Typing 1:	Typing 2:
Fire	Flying
Score_100	70.91666667	N_100	17.58333333
Score_150	139.4166667	N_150	32.58333333
Score_200	238	N_200	59
Mean BP	197.719823941	BP_Ceil	170.002161026

Fire/Flying is an interesting one cause like, so much of its strength does come down to just styling on Fire/Fairy/Ground combos, and those are honestly quite common in CAP. You have a similar number of overall positive matchups to Water/Ground, but a lot more mons that you simply just hard wall based purely on typing. This also is combined with a very generous set of STABs when looking at offensive presence. Flying is infamous for being the most clickable STAB in the game, and Fire is pretty close. That said, a lot of the moves that were slightly below 100 BP were well, Knock Off, which pretty trivially just forces you out. Overall a bit hard to analyze this one, and it shows a weakness of this analysis, that it ignores high utility moves.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Throwing some support behind Dragon/Fairy

2x: Poison, Steel, Ice, Fairy
5x: Fighting, Bug, Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Dark
0x: Dragon

The main strength of this typing comes from being fairly potent offensively, as Dragon and Fairy are both fairly strong types in the metagame that offer a fair number of high-powered moves that we can be using, as long with providing a plethora of useful resists. The most notable thing that this typing offers over most other types, in my opinion, is the Water/Fire/Dragon resistance, putting us in a fairly unique position that lets us deal reliably with Walking Wake, one of the strongest wallbreakers that can be found in the CAP metagame. In terms of other notable Pokemon that this typing allows us to wall, Physical Iron Valiant (w/o Spirit Break, but that's fairly rare), Cinderace w/o Gunk Shot, Hisuian Samurott, and Caribolt. In terms of weaknesses, Ice is basically negigible in this metagame, as only two Pokemon here really ever use Ice-type attacks, one of which is weak to our STAB, and Steel, while a bit more common, is in a bit of a similar boat. The weaknesses to Poison and Fairy, however, are a bit annoying to be honest, but I don't think that are enough to completely kill the type, and overall, I think the positives of this type combination well outweigh the negatives.

That's about the only real type I wanted to do a write-up for, other types such as Water/Flying, Posion/Dragon, and Dark/Fairy do interest me as well though.

 

[ryangregory78]

I'd like to throw some support behind Steel/Fairy as a typing for this project.

While yeah, its far from the most imaginative typing, it's still a fundamentally incredible typing that holds up great against some of the biggest threats in the game. It has a really solid matchup into Dragons like Moon, Bax, DNite, Maw, and Pult, can take weaker neutral attacks from Krilo, and can immediately threaten Fighters like Val, Argh, Hands, and Zama with super-effective damage. Depending on moveset and abilities, it can even serve as a buffer against Pokemon like Gambit since they can't hit it for super-effective damage. Admittedly, this typing is really awkward offensively, giving the likes of Hemo, Cinderace, Ghold, Moth, and Venom really easy switch-in opportunities, but it can still check a massive swath of Pokemon if it has the right moves and ability.

Some other types I wanna show some love for are Water/Fairy and Dragon/Poison. Like Steel/Fairy, Water/Fairy is generally just an incredibly defensive type all around that lets CAP33 function as a really solid check to Bax and Wake, and Dragon/Poison, while not nearly as sound as Water/Fairy, is still a really cool typing that has really solid neutral matchups agains Hemo, Krilo, and Val in addition to being really potent offensively.

 

[snake]

Here's a hodge-podge of thoughts from snake:

Dark/Fairy: Ending things off on a bit of a hot take. This typing looks very cool on paper, and I was extremely excited about it myself! ...And then I took a look at the viability rankings, and I realized that wow, this type actually sucks balls into most of the big threats!!!! This would make us a Dark type that cannot reliably check Kingambit, Galarian Slowking, and Gholdengo due to our weaknesses to Poison and Steel, and we also match up horribly into many other top threats, like Hemogoblin, Equilibra, Iron Valiant, Iron Moth, and Heatran. I do realize that Dragon/Fairy also has similar problems, but it's balanced out by the Dragon typing helping to make up for these weaknesses - most notably sporting a Fire resistance to help with Hemogoblin, Iron Moth, and Heatran - and the lack of the Dark typing giving it more key resistances, particularly that Fighting resist. It does allow us to wall Dragapult, but that's basically the only thing it does. I'd love to have my mind changed on this, because it is a cool type, but as it stands now, I just think it falls flat. I've seen a lot of people supporting it due to how good the dual STABs are, which is certainly good and all, but I feel like Electric/Flying does a much better job of that while also matching up into the current meta a lot better.

Click to collapse...

While these are valid concerns, I think it brushes past the point of how Dark/Fairy helps to check Dragapult and Hoopa-U, which pretty nice for bulkier teams and covers a niche that other bulky Pokemon currently struggle to do. With how the metagame is becoming somewhat bulkier again Pajantom is also somewhat on the rise, and that also doesn't like Dark/Fairy. It's also nice that, as a Fairy-type, that Gholdengo and Galarian Slowking don't really want to switch into it.

It's hard to emphasize enough that a) STAB Dark and Fairy moves can be very oppressive to switch into, even with low attacking stats, and b) Dark/Fairy would lend itself much more towards a Mega Latias/Talonflame build moreso than a Scream Tail build, where the combination of decent offensive pressure, high speed, and good enough bulk help get the job done. Dark/Fairy is a great example of what I mentioned in the last thread, where overall defensive potential through typing is sacrificed in order to get a unique resistance palette and interesting offensive pressure.

----

Electric/Flying seems like a hard space to break into given Zapdos's role. I think there could be space to work with, but Zapdos is already a fast-ish Pokemon that acts as a wall. CAP33 would have to have some very unique traits to compete for space alongside Zapdos.

---

I also want to go more into depth about why Grass/Steel is better than Bug/Steel. Grass/Steel is one of the best natural types that has positive match up into Krilowatt - a famously hard Pokemon to check this generation - which really helps to motivate Grass/Steel to have a good Speed stat. STAB Grass attacks makes the typing a lot less passive, as it hits quite a few of the current meta's A ranks - Great Tusk, Arghonaut, Garganacl, and again Krilowatt - super effectively, which makes CAP33 much less passive. Other other hand, Bug/Steel would have to run awkward STAB options or unstabbed options, making it seem very passive based on typing alone. Grass/Steel is also resistant to Stealth Rock, which is a nice plus in comparison to Bug/Steel. Bug/Steel's main draw over Grass/Steel really seems to be the Fighting resistance, but the VR really shows that there are plenty of Fighting-type checks that Grass/Steel could partner with to cover this weakness.

I'd also like to look at a couple past examples of Pokemon that utilized Bug/Steel typing to its fullest potential - Scizor and Mega Scizor - and why CAP33's role as a fast wall already means that it has a hard time replicating their success. Scizor and Mega Scizor were slow Pokemon with high Attack, meaning their STAB U-turns were very potent. You would have a slow pivot into a faster breaker alongside a good chunk of chip damage. CAP33 just can't do the same because a fast U-turn off of a much lower base Attack stat (even if STAB) is just so much less effective - the slow pivoting move is just much better for a wall than is a fast pivoting move. Additionally, Scizor and Mega Scizor could flip the script and go with a Swords Dance boosted sweep, but I don't think it's unfair to say that CAP33 should not have sweeping potential, even if it has options to be less passive (such a strong, relevant STAB moves). While CAP33 doesn't have to use the exact same tools as Scizor and Mega Scizor to replicate their success, CAP33 by design - with its lower implied offenses and high speed - already means that it has to find some other path for success, and it really makes me wonder what tools that Bug/Steel has to set itself apart from Grass/Steel or other broadly neutral typings like Water/Ground.

tl;dr Bug/Steel's offensive potential is very low based on typing alone, and that is very hard for me to look past when there's a nearly comparable but better typing in many ways - Grass/Steel - or just other broadly neutral typings like Water/Ground which also have better offensive potential. Walls very much like to have some sort of offensive potential or else they struggle to perform.