CAP 34 - Part 3 - Typing Discussion

[quziel]

CAP 34 So Far

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It's time to discuss one of the most important decisions for CAP 34--its type! Please follow ausma posts carefully and DO NOT immediately propose type combinations until she says so.

Below is the final post from the Defining Moves I thread:

I wanna start off this closing post with a huge thanks to everyone for the great discussion and conversation, you guys really make my job a whole lot easier with great posts. Moving forward, our defining moves pool for this first leg of the process will be Overdrive, Sparkling Aria, Psychic Noise, Alluring Voice, Clanging Scales, Boomburst and Clangorous Soul. These moves really should be in consideration as we move through the early steps, and narrowing it down to this list keeps our options open for good discussion in typing and ability while offering us some much-needed direction. Boomburst and Clangorous Soul were both divisive at points, but it makes the most sense to have them in consideration as we go forward. Though both are among the strongest of options decided on in this stage, they shouldn't center discussion any more than the rest of the defining moves pool.

With that being said, I'm ready and excited to hand off to ausma for our next step!

 

[ausma]

Hi everyone, for those who are not familiar with me, my name is ausma and this time around I will be leading the Typing stage for CAP 34! We have our work cut out for us, so let's not waste any time and start talking about arguably one of the most defining aspects of CAP 34.

Unlike most stages, we have a bit more to work off to inform the direction we take with our typing. We know a few things: the item we are trying to build around, the moves we are considering that engage directly with our item, and the role that CAP 34 will be playing as a result of our defining moves and item. As a reminder, here are the moves that SHSP has legalized as defining and are allowed to be discussed throughout this stage:

Defining Moves

Overdrive
Sparkling Aria
Psychic Noise
Alluring Voice
Clanging Scales
Boomburst
Clangorous Soul

____

In order to get ourselves oriented, I'm going to get things started with a few questions with these established concepts in mind!

1: We have our defining moves, all of which are offensive to some extent. How important is having a STAB-bonus in order to optimize the value we get out of using them? Do any have any noteworthy attributes (secondary effects, BP) or relevant coverage types that could give them flexibility one way or another?

2: Conversely, how valuable are the intrinsic qualities of our typing when maximizing and optimizing the opportunities we have to use the defining moves needed to activate our Throat Spray? In other words, to what extent do we value our resistances, STAB combination, and core matchups when actually using sound moves to activate our Throat Spray?

3: Since our role is effectively defined for us, it's only natural that we will want to have some level of offensive prowess in our STAB(s) regardless of whether we want defensive utility in our typing or not. Is it better for us to have a STAB (or STAB combination) that possesses excellent offensive synergy with our defining sound moves, or better to generally focus on using our defining sound moves as our main form of STAB-boosted damage output? Why?

4: Is it better to have a typing that possesses excellent offensive and defensive flexibility but lacks STAB on the targeted sound move, or better to have a more committal offensive typing that easily slots on an offensive sound move at the cost of defensive flexibility? Why?

5: Clangorous Soul is the only defining move outlined that is non-damage dealing; it is not affected by STAB in any way, but boasts an extremely powerful effect that boosts in tandem with Throat Spray. Do its unique functionality and effects as a Throat Spray-activating move at all impact your thoughts on the above questions in any way? Is that a bad thing, in your opinion?

____

I'm going to give this discussion about 48-72 hours depending on how much conversation we have. Once this time elapses, I will evaluate the general sentiment of the discussion and, depending on what's been discussed, open up a dedicated dialogue about specific types or move straight into discussing type submissions. Let's make this a good stage, and don't be afraid to reach out to me or dex if you have any concerns or questions. Happy discussing!

 

[quziel]

We're a sweeper, and imo the most important elements when designing a sweeper are the following 4 factors: 1) At least one STAB should hit very common pokemon for SE damage, 2) Your stabs + your coverage should generally hit most members of most defensive cores for SE damage, and generally be hard to wall, 3) you should resist common revenge killing typings, 4) your defensive typing should provide several switchin opportunities. While a lack of weaknesses is a plus, in the context of a sweeper its far less important than having prominent resistances.

Kingambit has a STAB combo that can easily force switches against OU's many Ghost types, several Fairy types, and few Rock types. Most defensive cores have at least one member that is easily KO'd by it even before Swords Dance, such as Glowking. Its defensive typing completely shuts down Dragapult as a revenge killer, and well, honestly speaking most of the revenge killers in OU specifically are so because they can match acceptably into Kingambit. Finally, its defensive typing gives it a lot of switchin opportunities, being a rare Ghost resist, and beyond that having the exemplary Steel typing.

 

[IronTemplar]

As quziel stated, at least 1 STAB option should be present, especially as a sweeper, so the secondary typing should make up for any weaknesses presented by that typing. All of the Defining moves have some very strong offensive utility, and I'd be hard pressed to use all of them. That being said there are certainly some attractive ones for asserting pressure. Good for making them sweat. I also share his appreciation for Kingambit's fantastic typing, if I may say (that part's unrelated)

Psychic Noise is very attractive to me. It’s relatively new and fun to exploit, while also just saying “NO!” to any recovery options

Clanging Scales and Clangorous Soul are both fantastic, though the latter could even be overkill with Throat Spray

Overdrive isn’t as good to me now that I look at it. It’s only 80 base power and Toxtricity got away with running it because of Punk Rock, which is an option we may not be presented with

Alluring Voice I am mostly discounting because it’s a Fairy move and I don’t wanna design a Fairy for the 3rd freaking time in a row… Otherwise quite nice, though it implies we’re slower than the opponent. Meanwhile, I would argue that limiting healing options is of much higher value than confusion

We just had a Water type so I’m not convinced on Sparkling Aria

Boomburst was a defining move on 32, and I don’t think it should define execution for 34, on the grounds of preventing repetition

My favourite is definitely Psychic Noise. We get a setup for special attack, and turn off their tanks. Clangorous Soul comes second

 

[Samirsin]

How important is having a STAB-bonus in order to optimize the value we get out of using them? Do any have any noteworthy attributes (secondary effects, BP) or relevant coverage types that could give them flexibility one way or another?
STAB is what makes a move threatening. If a move has high BP, we can balance it by not making it a STAB, while the lower BP moves can be boosted by STAB, moves with extra effects, like Psychic Noise are in between, it depends on what we want to hit.

To what extent do we value our resistances, STAB combination, and core matchups when actually using sound moves to activate our Throat Spray?
In a meta with Tera, I think the original typing is meant to be what allows us to enter into a matchup while the tera type allows us to sweep.

Is it better for us to have a STAB (or STAB combination) that possesses excellent offensive synergy with our defining sound moves, or better to generally focus on using our defining sound moves as our main form of STAB-boosted damage output? Why?
I prefer the latter, as this promotes the use of the defining moves over other moves.

Is it better to have a typing that possesses excellent offensive and defensive flexibility but lacks STAB on the targeted sound move, or better to have a more committal offensive typing that easily slots on an offensive sound move at the cost of defensive flexibility? Why?
This is other question that is affected by Tera in the metagame, I will wait on the answers of others.

Does Clangorous Soul unique functionality and effects as a Throat Spray-activating move at all impact your thoughts on the above questions in any way? Is that a bad thing, in your opinion?
As I have stated, I do not like Clangorous Soul as it could make our Pokémon use other items aside from Throat Spray, (unless the stat stage covers that), however, I have read the texts of my fellow CAPpers on why it is not as bad as it sound **ba dum tss** and I think it can be leveraged enough for it to be worth and for it to promote the use of Throat Spray.

 

[Explosion Badger]

How important is having a STAB-bonus in order to optimize the value we get out of using them? Do any have any noteworthy attributes (secondary effects, BP) or relevant coverage types that could give them flexibility one way or another?

STAB is weird in this case, since it depends heavily on how committed we want 34 to be to its sweeper role. If 34 is built to purely be a sweeper, then STAB on our sound move is as simple as having that move alongside our other STAB and coverage. If it's built to come in prior to sweeping, though, then that either implies that 34 will lack one of its STABs until sweeping time, or it will sacrifice some of its coverage for another non-sound STAB. This effect is made further frustrating by the fact that, of the available sound moves, very few of them have types commonly associated with coverage or other useful attributes. Between the choices given, Overdrive, Psychic Noise and Boomburst stand out the most as non-STAB options for their coverage, attributes, and raw power, in that order specifically. Besides those three, and the obvious Clangorous Soul, our ability to turn the remaining options into coverage seems difficult, though luckily all of their types are appealing as STAB options, with Fairy, Dragon, and Water all being strong STAB types that notable sweepers have had in the past. Overall, I'd say that STAB on our sound move is more important on Sparkling Aria, Clanging Scales, and Alluring Voice, and whatever other STABs those types give will determine how focused 34 is on pure sweeping.

Is it better for us to have a STAB (or STAB combination) that possesses excellent offensive synergy with our defining sound moves, or better to generally focus on using our defining sound moves as our main form of STAB-boosted damage output? Why?

I think the path we choose depends heavily on the sound move ultimately chosen, but considering how shaky most of the sound moves given are as coverage, I feel that using our defining sound moves as STAB will ultimately be a more successful path. Not only does it emphasize the use of Throat Spray more, as we'll want to use Throat Spray to boost that moves power, but it will also allow 34 more flexibility in its moveslots, rather than having its 2 STABs and a coverage move tacked onto every moveset.

 

[Perturbo]

1. I believe that you would need STAB to make some of these lower power moves like Psychic Noise viable. Even with Psychic Noise's very threatening secondary effect, I believe that it would need to be stab for it to be properly threatening on a sweeper like CAP 34
Conversly, I think that for CAP 34 to run Throat Spray over Specs, the higher base power moves would need to be non STAB to give an incentive for switching the moves around.

2. With tera in the meta I think your typing for a sweeper pokemon should be good for switching in and directly threatening a handful of matchups, specifically against offensive pokemon.

3. Latter. I think using STAB options that aren't our defining sound moves defeat the purpose quite a bit.

4. I prefer the former. I believe that for CAP 34 to truly thrive as an offensive sweeper, it would be similar in build to ADV Gengar, an offensively threatening pokemon with no stab options. Obviously I'm not saying CAP 34 should not have STAB options, but I believe lacking STAB on our most powerful sound moves gives us a more clear vision on how to create CAP 34. Not to mention Tera already gives us the option to give CAP 34 STAB on its most powerful move.

5. I dislike Clangorous Soul on CAP 34. I believe if we were to give Clangorous Soul to CAP 34 (especially if we give it Boomburst), a lot of the process would be turned into "How do we make this not look like a optimized Kommo-o". And while some people might not have an issue with that, I personally think that this wouldn't be the best way to work with CAP 34

 

[breadstickslug]

3: Since our role is effectively defined for us, it's only natural that we will want to have some level of offensive prowess in our STAB(s) regardless of whether we want defensive utility in our typing or not. Is it better for us to have a STAB (or STAB combination) that possesses excellent offensive synergy with our defining sound moves, or better to generally focus on using our defining sound moves as our main form of STAB-boosted damage output? Why?

If our [damaging] sound moves are not our STAB typing, their primary purpose in taking a move slot is as the once-per-game Throat Spray proc, alongside any coverage utility and secondary effect that it may provide - as only one of those in the Defining Moves list has a notable effect that may synergize with our desired role (Psychic Noise), most of the available move choices would drive the direction of typing more heavily towards one that will often benefit from the sound move as coverage, such that it provides more value beyond just being a vessel for a +1 boost alongside variably relevant chip. Boomburst is the main exception to this, as its base power means it may even eclipse the strength of other standard STAB moves, inherently providing that extra reason.

Having a typing that offers STAB to one or more of our targeted sound moves not only applies more impact to the initial boost turn, but also allows more room for relevant coverage or other moveset options we may choose to give it down the line.

On the other hand, having less reliance on our chosen sound move(s) as our main offensive pressure tool does give us the option to come in and get notable value from our moves without cashing in on our Throat Spray buff - this ultimately depends on whether CAP34's presence + subsequent item usage is intended to be the win condition, or simply a late-game inevitability on a mon that still otherwise provides early- or mid-game offensive value. Our concept trying to push the importance of our item may mean that our best choice to fulfill that purpose is to go the win condition route and embrace the sound moves as our primary offense.

5: Clangorous Soul is the only defining move outlined that is non-damage dealing; it is not affected by STAB in any way, but boasts an extremely powerful effect that boosts in tandem with Throat Spray. Do its unique functionality and effects as a Throat Spray-activating move at all impact your thoughts on the above questions in any way? Is that a bad thing, in your opinion?

This move falls a bit more squarely in the "once-per-game click" bucket than the damaging options, but provides a much more substantial boost that may be pivotal in setting up a sweep, and its individual potential value does not at all rely on our typing. However, due to it not providing any coverage whatsoever, more weight falls on our choice of typing to have excellent broad offensive coverage.

 

[mark6870]

ive had a sore throat ever since concept assessment and i could really use some irl throat spray right now

1: We have our defining moves, all of which are offensive to some extent. How important is having a STAB-bonus in order to optimize the value we get out of using them? Do any have any noteworthy attributes (secondary effects, BP) or relevant coverage types that could give them flexibility one way or another?

STAB is perhaps most important on Psychic Noise and Clanging Scales, as the former's secondary effect is not strong enough to justify it as coverage and the latter is just not a good coverage type.

2: Conversely, how valuable are the intrinsic qualities of our typing when maximizing and optimizing the opportunities we have to use the defining moves needed to activate our Throat Spray? In other words, to what extent do we value our resistances, STAB combination, and core matchups when actually using sound moves to activate our Throat Spray?

The moves we use to activate Throat Spray preferably have no immunities so that nothing can stop us from setting up when we want to. We obviously will want a STAB combination that has good offensive prowess but we will want our sound move to be reliable

3: Since our role is effectively defined for us, it's only natural that we will want to have some level of offensive prowess in our STAB(s) regardless of whether we want defensive utility in our typing or not. Is it better for us to have a STAB (or STAB combination) that possesses excellent offensive synergy with our defining sound moves, or better to generally focus on using our defining sound moves as our main form of STAB-boosted damage output? Why?

I believe it is better to have STABs synergize with our defining moves, but we should have STAB on our main sound moves if they are attacks.

4: Is it better to have a typing that possesses excellent offensive and defensive flexibility but lacks STAB on the targeted sound move, or better to have a more committal offensive typing that easily slots on an offensive sound move at the cost of defensive flexibility? Why?

This question works in tandem with question 1; as a typing with defensive flexibility that lacks STAB on our sound move is more appealing if we don't need to have STAB on our sound move. However, some of our defining moves require STAB to be threatening. I would prefer to have threatening STAB moves over defensive flexibility but if we can eek out defensive merit in any way we can that'd be nice.

5: Clangorous Soul is the only defining move outlined that is non-damage dealing; it is not affected by STAB in any way, but boasts an extremely powerful effect that boosts in tandem with Throat Spray. Do its unique functionality and effects as a Throat Spray-activating move at all impact your thoughts on the above questions in any way? Is that a bad thing, in your opinion?

o yeah go go gadget omniboost

Clangorous Soul changes my answers for 2, 3, and 4.
2. we can setup whenever we want to with Clanging Soul.
3. Because we proc Throat Spray with Clangorous Soul, we don't really NEED to have any other sound moves for that purpose. This kind of nullifies moves like Overdrive, Sparkling Aria, and Alluring Voice since there are better non-sound move options, and thus using defining sound moves as our main form of damage output becomes less necessary.
4. Because, again, we don't need any sound moves other than ClangSoul, a "committal offensive typing that easily slots on an offensive sound move" isn't necessary. We can just go for a typing that has a solid blend of offense and defense since our moveslots are no longer relegated to other sound moves.

I don't like Clangorous Soul for this process but I cannot deny how it frees up moves in the later stages.

 

[Anchor9]

1: We have our defining moves, all of which are offensive to some extent. How important is having a STAB-bonus in order to optimize the value we get out of using them? Do any have any noteworthy attributes (secondary effects, BP) or relevant coverage types that could give them flexibility one way or another?

2: Conversely, how valuable are the intrinsic qualities of our typing when maximizing and optimizing the opportunities we have to use the defining moves needed to activate our Throat Spray? In other words, to what extent do we value our resistances, STAB combination, and core matchups when actually using sound moves to activate our Throat Spray?

3: Since our role is effectively defined for us, it's only natural that we will want to have some level of offensive prowess in our STAB(s) regardless of whether we want defensive utility in our typing or not. Is it better for us to have a STAB (or STAB combination) that possesses excellent offensive synergy with our defining sound moves, or better to generally focus on using our defining sound moves as our main form of STAB-boosted damage output? Why?

4: Is it better to have a typing that possesses excellent offensive and defensive flexibility but lacks STAB on the targeted sound move, or better to have a more committal offensive typing that easily slots on an offensive sound move at the cost of defensive flexibility? Why?

5: Clangorous Soul is the only defining move outlined that is non-damage dealing; it is not affected by STAB in any way, but boasts an extremely powerful effect that boosts in tandem with Throat Spray. Do its unique functionality and effects as a Throat Spray-activating move at all impact your thoughts on the above questions in any way? Is that a bad thing, in your opinion?

I think I have an interesting take on this:

1. A sound based STAB is very important for the new CAP, and the only reason it wouldn’t be is if Clangorous Soul was the main sound based move used. If Clangorous Soul was chosen, I believe type flexibility would be at its highest, and I believe the other moves could be used as coverage, with Psychic Noise having the most utility. While at first having sound-based moves as coverage seems useless considering there are plenty of more reliable coverage moves to choose from, sound coverage options give more opportunities to activate Throat Spray easily. If Clangorous Soul is not chosen, then most definitely the CAP would need to be some Electric, Psychic, Fairy, Water, or Normal type, with Electric being far inferior to the other options. But it only needs to have STAB on one sound based moves, and I’ll explain why.

2. I think that the sound moves chosen should hit a large majority of the tier. The new CAP does not want to waste time without a +1 SpAtk because its sound based moves are resisted.

3. I really think neither. What I think should happen is to give CAP a typing that makes one sound move STAB while using the other sound moves to make up in damage by covering the CAP’s typing. Such as if our CAP was a Normal type for Boomburst, Alluring Voice and Psychic Noise can be used to activate Throat Spray as coverage, making up the damage output by being Super Effective.

4. Once again, this varies based on if Clangorous Soul is on the CAP. Clangorous Soul does no damage, so whether it’s the same type or not is irrelevant. Preferably it would not be the same type, giving more flexibility in the STAB combination of the CAP that isn’t limited by the sound movepool. If Clangorous Soul isn’t chosen, it’s really only necessary for ONE of the sound based moves to be STAB, while the others can be coverage options. So while those Sound based moves won’t be boosted by STAB, they’ll be boosted by hitting the opponent Super Effectively.

5. Yeah Clangorous Soul really effects the direction this goes, and it’s not necessarily bad. This gives this CAP two very interesting directions, with Clangorous Soul bringing more flexible typing and non-Clangorous Soul probably hitting harder to start off.

 

[pyuking muku]

I think that the most important moves for STAB are Sparkling Aria, Clanging Scales, Psychic Noise, and Alluring Voice. Dragon isn't really useful as a coverage type, and I feel like Water doesn't threaten a lot as coverage. Noise and Voice are just too weak without STAB to be viable moves, even with Noise's powerful effect. Psychic and Fairy typings are good offensively when they're blowing things up, so if we want to be an offensive threat with Noise/Voice, we need to have the power to back things up.

Other than that, most of what everyone has said I agree with.

 

[Sawyer.]

In my opinion, we should choose a relatively poor offensive typing for CAP34, forcing it to rely on super-effective coverage moves rather than spamming STAB attacks. This approach synergises well with Throat Spray because:

1. Throat Spray frees up a moveslot for CAP34 to run additional coverage rather than a stat-boosting move.
2. Without spammable STABs, CAP34 will be less likely to viably use Choice Specs or other items over Throat Spray.

A second point is that, without access to brute force STABs, CAP34 will likely need to rely on specific techs (such as Psychic Noise, Taunt, or Psyshock) to break through fat special walls.

Considering both of the above, Psychic (unlocking STAB Psychic Noise / Psyshock) seems like the ideal type for us to choose.

 

[Docter_Peng99]

Well I definitely think that steel fire could work if we go with torch song but steel psychic works well too specifically steel or poison because of all the fairy types running around or if we go with a dragon type then you would have to worry about espeed from a specific heart shaped cap water and psychic works too but all in all I mostly agree with most of the posts and I don't really care what typing will be ultimately chosen

 

[chartung17]

In general I think having STAB on (at least one of) our sound moves would be good, with one exception: I do not think we should have STAB Boomburst, since I think it could be too powerful relative to our coverage options and result in a mon that prefers Specs over Throat Spray.

 

[AzothBend]

1: We have our defining moves, all of which are offensive to some extent. How important is having a STAB-bonus in order to optimize the value we get out of using them? Do any have any noteworthy attributes (secondary effects, BP) or relevant coverage types that could give them flexibility one way or another?

CAP 34 should have STAB for at least one of its defining moves. The entire goal is to utilize Throat Spray. The first move CAP 34 selects should be one of these defining sound-based moves to get the most out of Throat Spray. Clanging Scales and Boomburst are the only two damaging moves where STAB does not seem particularly necessary thanks to their higher BP, though neither is particularly great as a coverage move.

2: Conversely, how valuable are the intrinsic qualities of our typing when maximizing and optimizing the opportunities we have to use the defining moves needed to activate our Throat Spray? In other words, to what extent do we value our resistances, STAB combination, and core matchups when actually using sound moves to activate our Throat Spray?

Resistances do not matter much beyond giving CAP 34 some reasonable safety on switch-in. The most important aspect to this is that it not be weak to hazards, specifically Stealth Rock, so as not to incentivize Heavy-duty Boots over Throat Spray. STAB combination is largely the same, as Throat Spray already favors a Pokemon that likes to switch between different damaging moves.

3: Since our role is effectively defined for us, it's only natural that we will want to have some level of offensive prowess in our STAB(s) regardless of whether we want defensive utility in our typing or not. Is it better for us to have a STAB (or STAB combination) that possesses excellent offensive synergy with our defining sound moves, or better to generally focus on using our defining sound moves as our main form of STAB-boosted damage output? Why?

As stated above, it's pivotal that CAP 34 wants to click one of its defining moves first to activate Throat Spray. Giving one of these moves STAB is one way we can incentivize that gameplay. Ideally, STAB on more than one of the defining moves allows some flexibility to what that first move is. One thing to note moving forward is 2/3rds of the damaging defining moves are resisted by Steel-types (Psychic Noise, Alluring Voice, Clanging Scales, and Boomburst), so Overdrive and Sparkling Aria appear especially viable as STAB moves.

4: Is it better to have a typing that possesses excellent offensive and defensive flexibility but lacks STAB on the targeted sound move, or better to have a more committal offensive typing that easily slots on an offensive sound move at the cost of defensive flexibility? Why?

Again, CAP 34 wants to click a sound-based move as soon as possible. Giving one or more sound-based move STAB helps it do just that. The second option is preferred for this reason, absent Tera which is a whole other can of worms.

5: Clangorous Soul is the only defining move outlined that is non-damage dealing; it is not affected by STAB in any way, but boasts an extremely powerful effect that boosts in tandem with Throat Spray. Do its unique functionality and effects as a Throat Spray-activating move at all impact your thoughts on the above questions in any way? Is that a bad thing, in your opinion?

Clangorous Soul completely invalidates any thoughts on the above questions. If CAP 34 has access to Clangorous Soul, it needs no other sound-based moves to activate Throat Spray. Further, it will want typing that provides, foremost, defensive capability to actually use Clangorous Soul without fainting. If that typing also provides a strong offensive STAB combination, all the better. Clangorous Soul upends the discussion more than any other defining move and should be considered carefully.

 

[a fairy]

1: We have our defining moves, all of which are offensive to some extent. How important is having a STAB-bonus in order to optimize the value we get out of using them? Do any have any noteworthy attributes (secondary effects, BP) or relevant coverage types that could give them flexibility one way or another?

I think, if anything, I'd want STAB on the ones that are "weaker" and/or rely on side effects as their primary draw. I think that a non-STAB 80 BP Overdrive is going to struggle to draw attention, unless we head in the direction of leaving Throat Spray to activate on coverage or a specific "break glass to sweep" move. I'm less keen on that approach, frankly. But like, Alluring Voice should probably be a STAB if it's our primary means of activating Throat Spray - but Clanging Scales or Boomburst probably don't need to be.

2: Conversely, how valuable are the intrinsic qualities of our typing when maximizing and optimizing the opportunities we have to use the defining moves needed to activate our Throat Spray? In other words, to what extent do we value our resistances, STAB combination, and core matchups when actually using sound moves to activate our Throat Spray?

Once we're in, we're in. Yeah, we can switch out before activating Throat Spray, but once it's activated, we can't be switching out. While this can be played around with good gamesense, it'd be awfully disappointing if our Pokemon was threatened by common coverage like Ground or Rock. With how many things run Earthquake, Stone Edge, Ice Beam, or other "goodstuff" moves, if our Pokemon invites in those hits, suddenly we have a lot more things that need to be removed or severely weakened before CAP34 can start doing its job.

3: Since our role is effectively defined for us, it's only natural that we will want to have some level of offensive prowess in our STAB(s) regardless of whether we want defensive utility in our typing or not. Is it better for us to have a STAB (or STAB combination) that possesses excellent offensive synergy with our defining sound moves, or better to generally focus on using our defining sound moves as our main form of STAB-boosted damage output? Why?

I don't think we should limit our STAB to our sound move. We want the opportunity to threaten the Throat Spray when we come in, and not necessarily feel required to use it. If CAP34 comes in, it should have the option to keep Throat Spray unactivated, dealing chip damage and heading back out for when its ready. If our primary means of dealing damage is our Throat Spray activator, then we risk being able to accomplish nothing without having to commit the rest of CAP34's life.

4: Is it better to have a typing that possesses excellent offensive and defensive flexibility but lacks STAB on the targeted sound move, or better to have a more committal offensive typing that easily slots on an offensive sound move at the cost of defensive flexibility? Why?

I am a big fan of defensive flexibility! I don't think we need to give up STAB on our sound move while also not giving up our ability to take common coverage options. We don't even necessarily need to resist the Earthquakes and U-Turns, we just can't have a 'mon that needs to switch out to avoid common coverage moves. I think that a defensive typing to protect us when we do commit is more important than the spamminess of our activation move.

5: Clangorous Soul is the only defining move outlined that is non-damage dealing; it is not affected by STAB in any way, but boasts an extremely powerful effect that boosts in tandem with Throat Spray. Do its unique functionality and effects as a Throat Spray-activating move at all impact your thoughts on the above questions in any way? Is that a bad thing, in your opinion?

I don't think it changes much, if only because Dragon fits with how I envision our typing could be, defensively. Now, mind you, I don't really think Clangorous Soul should be our primary activation of choice, but I don't think it causes too much trouble, either.

 

[dex]

only because Dragon fits

Friendly reminder to everyone that Clangorous Soul does not require a Dragon typing. It is a set-up move, just like Quiver Dance or Bulk Up; there is no typing requirement.

 

[a fairy]

Friendly reminder to everyone that Clangorous Soul does not require a Dragon typing. It is a set-up move, just like Quiver Dance or Bulk Up; there is no typing requirement.

Yeah, sorry, contextually I prob should’ve made my point more cleanly, I was trying to say that as someone not particularly fussed about STAB when compared to defensive profile, Clangorous Soul doesn’t impact my thinking all that much. Dragon is a good typing even with C.Soul not being STAB-relevant.

 

[Amamama]

1: We have our defining moves, all of which are offensive to some extent. How important is having a STAB-bonus in order to optimize the value we get out of using them? Do any have any noteworthy attributes (secondary effects, BP) or relevant coverage types that could give them flexibility one way or another?

Alluring Voice, Overdrive, Psychic Noise and Sparkling Aria all are fairly low Power moves, that certainly would love a STAB boost to them to become a bit more threatening.
At the same time all four of their types are fairly good coverage move types, which means they might find solid applications either way.
I don’t think any of these moves really necessitates being STAB if:
1) They aren’t the only method of activation for Throat Spray (implying there is another STAB move that activates Throat Spray)
2) They are the strongest of that type coverage in the movepool (making them the best coverage option to be run)

Clanging Scales is technically strong enough to be used as non STAB option but Dragon moves are generally not as great as coverage as they only hit one additional type SE.
Imo Clanging Scales is the only move on this list that requires STAB pretty much always.

Boomburst is on the other side of the Spectrum, where I think it should never be a STAB move, just bc the power difference between moves becomes so vast, that clicking anything but Boomburst becomes less appealing and directly takes incentive out of Throat Spray.

Clangorous Soul obviously can’t be STAB and doesn’t have to adhere to Dragon for this process.

Following the logic of the above, this CAP should have
1) Dragon as STAB option if we go with Clanging Scales
2) One of Fairy, Electric, Psychic or Water as STAB option if we go with Alluring Voice, Overdrive, Psychic Noise or Sparkling Aria and have at least one of these moves boosted by STAB.
3) no STAB on Normal moves

Unless we go with Clangorous Soul, in which case there are other criteria, that can be met.

to what extent do we value our resistances, STAB combination, and core matchups when actually using sound moves to activate our Throat Spray?

Given that this Mon wants to be offensive, the first consideration should be STAB coverage as that usually determines the value of an offensive threat. This holds true especially if - following the logic from the answer to the first question - we use one of the weaker Sound moves as STAB option, having a good spread of SE hits is a requirement for any Mon that uses less strong offensive moves.
Now the method of boosting we are going for (unless we pick Clangorous Soul) puts us into a unique position, where we have more room for coverage or additional STAB options, which somewhat alleviates the need for the Sound STABs to be super high power or wide coverage, which in turn allows us to possibly focus some more on any defensive utility our typing can provide.
Thanks to having more open moveslots going with weaker STABs and coverage that reaches the same power level seems viable.
One thing I find intriguing is the question whether it is an issue or maybe even a benefit, that some of the sound moves we picked face an immunity. Is it a problem bc it inhibits momentum and might block this Pokémon from boosting entirely or can it be a benefit not risking to whiff by clicking the single use activation on the wrong turn.

Is it better for us to have a STAB (or STAB combination) that possesses excellent offensive synergy with our defining sound moves, or better to generally focus on using our defining sound moves as our main form of STAB-boosted damage output? Why?

With the exception of Clanging Scales and maybe Sparkling Aria none of these moves is cut out to be the main STAB due to their limited power. I think any of the other moves requires an additional complementary STAB typing with high power options or to be run with a second high power attack of the same type.
The main reason for this is the limited nature of our boosts as Throat spray only gives a 1 stage boost. Move Power is the largest modifier of damage output besides boosts so if we (likely) don’t have additional boosting - except for if we go with Clangorous Soul - having higher base power moves will be a very large part of the effective damage output of this Mon.

Is it better to have a typing that possesses excellent offensive and defensive flexibility but lacks STAB on the targeted sound move, or better to have a more committal offensive typing that easily slots on an offensive sound move at the cost of defensive flexibility? Why?

I think this shines through in previous answers, but except for Boomburst idt any of these moves really can function both off STAB AND as main activation of throat spray. I definitely can see most of these Sound moves as coverage given their great coverage types, but I expect, that we will always want a STAB option that also activates the item.
I also believe that typings that can provide a strong alternative alongside the sound activation move are going to be better as STAB than those that can’t provide a second STAB of the same type.

1) At least one STAB should hit very common pokemon for SE damage, 2) Your stabs + your coverage should generally hit most members of most defensive cores for SE damage, and generally be hard to wall, 3) you should resist common revenge killing typings, 4) your defensive typing should provide several switchin opportunities.

Looking through the list of moves we gathered from defining moves I think all of them fulfill requirement 1 and generally are bery good offensive types that allow to hit several important defensive mons SE.
Fairy is maybe the least defensive targeted typing of these as it mostly hits Arghonaut, Great Tusk and Ting Lu and has much better coverage into offensive mons.
Electric is great for hitting both Bulky Waters and Venomicon or the rare Steel Bird.
Psychic Noise is a bit more targeted in Hitting the bulky Fighting types as well as Venomicon and has the added benefit of shutting down recovery of even mons that resist it.
Water hits obviously the Bulky Grounds as well as Heatran, which isn’t shabby either.
Dragon similar to fairly seems more targeted towards offensive Pokémon but the higher BP of Clanging Scales and the generally neutral nature of Dragon mean it’s still very spammable into more defensive Pokémon.
Most of these moves also seem fairly solid as complimentary STABs or coverage, except for their generally low inertial damage output.
Except for Alluring Voice none of the typings really provide defensive utility against the most common revenge killing options and Water and Psychic are weak to some of them as well. We’d definitely have to look to the secondary typing to shore up these issues if we go with one of the moves STAB types.
Except for Psychic Noise all of the move options we have already provide solid defensive utility for offensive teams.

 

[pyuking muku]

I've also been considering Psychic as a great typing, as it further synergizes with Throat Spray by weakening Knock Off. It makes sense as an offensive typing as well, albeit one that needs good coverage. Psychic typing works well with Psychic Noise, Alluring Voice, Clangorous Soul, and Overdrive, which helps keep our move choices relatively free.

I feel like I want to stay away from Normal, as STAB Boomburst is just kinda 'big button go brrrr' and leans more into Specs.

I think that to create a good CAP that prefers Throat Spray over Specs, we want to design something that doesn't have a button that's easy to click, like Sawyer. said. I also agree with Anchor9 in that our sound move(s) should be able to hit most of the metagame easily, as the benefit of using Throat Spray is being able to choose when it's activated, and having options for what to do is best.

 

[boo836]

I think Psychic stands out as a great STAB typing to use Psychic Noise, what's easily the best fitting move for CAP 34's chosen sweeper role. Being able to do damage AND deny healing significantly shortens available defensive counterplay. Resisting Fighting is much more important this generation, and given the reliance on Fighting coverage by several walls (Zamazenta, Skarmory, Garganacl), I think there's a greater incentive to make an offensive Psychic CAP than we've ever seen before.

Clanging Scales makes it significantly easier for opposing revenge killers to end your progress. I don't really find it to be a compelling option when we want this mon to be able to establish a win condition. Dragon is also not great as an offensive typing, it doesn't actually hit anything super effectively outside of itself and it's resisted by two of the best types around. The way I see it, it's just a significantly worse Boomburst that trades Ghosts' immunity for Fairies' immunity.

 

[singaporygon]

This is kind of a quicker post instead of a more proper one, and also parroting much of what others have said already:

I like how Sawyer centered their post around wanting to disincentivize Specs.

And so yeah, I also think we want 'poorer offensive typing' . And that it will more Target certain mons/cores to prove itself a slot for its team, but less threaten 'multiple' cores because that means forcing out in general thus tempting specs to make progress even with resists that switch in.

What I love about Psychic Noise, is that it could muscle through unaware/recovery mons that aren't immune, without having a moveslot for taunt. And so it works well with not wasting throat spray (which also saves a moveslot for special attacking setup).
I also agree that we'd likely want STAB on it, since it's still not relatively strong even with its secondary effect.

At the same time, I think we want to be a threat earlier/mid battle without needing to activate throat spray, so we want good Non-Sound attacks :
like A. mid-ranked-secondary-type STAB to balance still making progress without wanting specs, and/or
B. non-STAB coverage that has higher move BP.
(However this isn't saying we can't have more than one sound move in our main moveset)

EDIT: I've realized from others that Specs isn't so great in a tera meta, and I'm inclined to agree. And so you could have good typing and still incentivize Throat Spray due to the ability to change moves, and possibly tech something like Substitute to help vs Tera.

 

[viol and bass]

I think resistance to common strong priority is a very helpful trait here. We're likely building a sweeper / cleaner, and most of the likely routes for us involve high natural speed or boosting our speed in some way. This metagame is full of users of strong priority moves, perhaps more than any in recent memory, and to me that says that unless we specifically patch this up with our ability, we need to resist or at least not be weak to many of these priority moves in order to stand a chance. This especially needs to be looked at if we go with a move like Clanging Scales which drops Defense.

So Fairy, Grass, Normal, Dark, and Electric resistances are premium here. To me, that puts typings like Poison and Steel in a very good position, despite their lack of STAB sound moves. Mix one of these typings with another that offers a strong STAB sound move and is at least a bit complementary and you'll go pretty far, I think. Fire would be pretty nice too, although being weak to every hazard on a mon that doesn't run boots is not necessarily a good vibe.

 

[StarFalcon555]

1: We have our defining moves, all of which are offensive to some extent. How important is having a STAB-bonus in order to optimize the value we get out of using them? Do any have any noteworthy attributes (secondary effects, BP) or relevant coverage types that could give them flexibility one way or another?

It depends on the move, honestly. Boomburst, Sparkling Aria, Overdrive, and Alluring Voice can be used pretty optimally without a STAB bonus - Boomburst's sheer, raw power more than makes up for the general mediocrity of Normal as an offensive typing, and Water, Electric, and Fairy are all pretty common coverage types on other Pokemon, so we don't need STAB to abuse them properly.

Psychic Noise, on the other hand, definitely requires STAB IMO - not only is it the weakest of our options at only 75 BP, but Psychic is a pretty mediocre offensive type. It hits a few common Pokemon like Iron Valiant, Venomicon, Great Tusk, and Arghonaut for SE damage, but aside from those few Fighting and Poison types (which most Pokemon would much rather prefer to hit with Flying, Fairy, or Ground coverage) we hit either neutrally, resisted, or straight up not affected into the rest of the metagame (the big ones here being Kingambit and Roaring Moon). Psychic Noise is a really intriguing move for this CAP and in general, provides very unique utility in conjunction with Throat Spray, and is overall my favorite of our available options (same for many other people here), but considering the mediocrity of Psychic as an offensive type, getting STAB on it might be necessary to make the most out of this move's limitless anount of potential.

(only answering this for now bc I'm busy and tired)

 

[Sawyer.]

I share viol and bass's concern about priority attackers halting our sweep. However, it's worth mentioning the following factors which will mitigate our priority weakness:

• CAP34 can activate Throat Spray by KOing a weakened opponent, so it will be difficult for an opponent to force damage on it in the process of setting up. Being somewhat bulky and neutral to strong priority attacks should therefore give CAP34 adequate protection against priority.
• Given the popularity of the Psychic type in discussions so far, Kingambit's Sucker Punch is a primary concern. However, there are numerous moves or abilities that we could use to circumvent this weakness if needed (e.g. Substitute). A defensive Tera is always an option as well.

On a separate point, I believe that CAP34 needs to have at least two powerful sound-based attacks. My reasoning is that:

• Having multiple sound-based attacks will enhance CAP34's ability to activate Throat Spray while simultaneously claiming a KO or threatening heavy damage. This is absolutely crucial to its viability.
• There is no advantage to being selective about when CAP34 activates the Throat Spray boost. Prior to activating the boost, CAP34 will be functionally useless, lacking an item and one or more of its moveslots. It would also be at risk of sustaining damage to the point that it couldn't sweep later.

Given that we want CAP34 to use two or more sound-based attacks, and that most of these attacks need to be boosted by STAB, this clarifies our options for typing. We should choose either:

• A dual typing consisting of some pairing of Psychic, Electric, Water, Dragon, or Fairy; or
• Just one of these typings, but it must be paired with a non-STAB Boomburst