CAP 36 - Part 7 - Stat Limits Discussion

[quziel]

CAP 36 So Far

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This next stage is Stat Limits, and it's very important! Our Stats Leader, who will be leading this stage, is Rabia, so make sure that your posts are generally directed towards him and the questions he asks. Rabia will be deciding the stat limits for CAP X at the conclusion of this thread, based on community input. This is NOT the place where we actually submit stats. That will come later.

These limits will help to define what we consider when making and talking about stat spreads for CAP 36. We will look at limits to CAP 36's physical and special attacking prowess, its physical and special tanking capabilities, and the overall power of its stats.

This is a relatively tricky stage of the process if you're not familiar with what it is we're doing and why we're doing it. For that reason, we strongly encourage those who intend to participate to read the entire OP thoroughly and ask questions where needed.

Please do not poll jump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities.

Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. The Stats Leader will decide the stat limits for the CAP upon the conclusion of this thread.

Stat Bias Limits

Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be constrained by Stat Bias Limits. There will be four stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:

Physical Tankiness (PT)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.​

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Physical Sweepiness (PS)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical offense.​

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Special Tankiness (ST)

The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.​

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Special Sweepiness (SS)

The rating of the Pokémon's special offense​

A spreadsheet for calculating the ratings can be found here. To use it for yourself, create an editable copy with File > Make a copy. If you don't have a spreadsheet program, OpenOffice and Google Sheets are free.

If you're a newer member of CAP, we highly recommend that you do some good lurking during this stage in the process. Read this page thoroughly to understand what exactly we're doing here. If you're still confused, check out some of the old Stat Limits Discussion threads for past CAPs in the CAP Process Archive. If you're still uncomfortable with posting here, then we suggest you watch how experienced users post; you can learn a lot from them!

 

[Rabia]

hi friends it's me

Stats stage this time around is different because of our forme changing. There are implications we have to draw from how the stats of each forme enable the other, and that's not even mentioning our status spreading via Inferno. Let's get discussion rolling with some general questions about our formes and how our transformation potentially influences stats:

1) How much of a hindrance do we view having to use CAP Song in our moveset? How great is the burden of spending a turn transforming?
2) How distinct do we want our formes to be in terms of archetype? Are we looking to bulk-max hard pre-Song and do a complete 180 post-Song?
2a) A way to look at this for post-Song is how some sweepers a la Garchomp and Scizor have useful defensive profiles we can tap into, whereas something like Weavile or Deoxys is just balls to the walls offense.
3) Ultimately, the goal is to transform after weakening our checks with Inferno burns and our great coverage, as well as potentially utility moves. How best do we incentivize this line of using Cap Song late-game? Similarly, how do we ensure that our pre-Song forme is actually worth staying in early- and mid-game?

We'll look to continue on after about 48 hours

 

[Shock3600]

1) Cap song is best compared to a lower risk but lower payoff setup move. It likely wont have as strong as a dragon dance or a nasty plot, but it’s easier to use due to being clickable against low health Pokémon and those weak to 36’s fire stab without allowing them to punish the setup turn so freely. This upside is lessened if the base form is slower than the Pokémon we want to gain a free then by revenging or scaring out, but a lower speed comes with its own benefit- against an opponent we would take two turns to knock out, we can hit them while staying in our bulkier form, and then in the second form outspeed to finish them off. Which is better depends a lot on what Pokémon we are looking to use as “setup fodder.”
3) This answer is more dependent on which coverage route we follow. If we are depending on the combination of inferno and knock off to make progres in base form, there’s a higher payoff to having better bulk since we can get more value out of extra turns spent in our base form, and it requires less special attack to make progress. If we are utilizing Thunder, the base form is both more dependent on having moderate special attack to make progress before we transform, but also carries more risk when increasing the base special attack- if the base form is capable enough with Thunder coverage we risk never transforming- this is less problematic if we are using knock off as a progress.

 

[viol and bass]

How much of a hindrance do we view having to use CAP Song in our moveset? How great is the burden of spending a turn transforming?

CAP Song is a real hindrance (although this is somewhat lessened by how good our STAB moves are), and the burden of having to spend a turn transforming is massive. If for example the cleaner form is fast, even blindingly fast, it's still completely unable to serve as speed control any more than an Agility Zapdos would be speed control. This is something we can use to our advantage in this stage: we're allowed to have pretty wild stats on the cleaner compared to a normal process, particularly in speed, since the threat level posed by big speed is mitigated by a large extent by being transformation locked.

How distinct do we want our formes to be in terms of archetype? Are we looking to bulk-max hard pre-Song and do a complete 180 post-Song? A way to look at this for post-Song is how some sweepers a la Garchomp and Scizor have useful defensive profiles we can tap into, whereas something like Weavile or Deoxys is just balls to the walls offense.

In short, yeah, I think we should seriously bulkmax on the base form and be very offensive on the cleaner. We need heaps of bulk just to be a functional defensive-leaning mon (tank neutral hits comfortably) in base form. That's not to say the cleaner can't have some bulk. The base form specializing in SpDef makes a fair amount of sense here, and we might consider making the cleaner more Def-heavy to tank priority more easily. These typings don't have a ton of defensive synergy, so this might be a way to add a little of that in. But it might also be valid to just make the cleaner Pheromosa and say "make sure you burn the priority users early game", I guess, as a way to kind of encourage our gameplan. I'm not sure if that's reliable enough but it might be a build.

Ultimately, the goal is to transform after weakening our checks with Inferno burns and our great coverage, as well as potentially utility moves. How best do we incentivize this line of using Cap Song late-game? Similarly, how do we ensure that our pre-Song forme is actually worth staying in early- and mid-game?

As soon as we chose these typings, the balance between the two forms became pretty skewed toward the cleaner. The best way to kind of bring things back into balance is just to make sure the base form has sufficient bulk. The numbers should be a bit eye-popping considering the fact that we're likely to run EV spreads with minimal or no bulk investment. It is of course important that the base form be hard to switch into, but we've gotten 99% of the way there in Defining Moves. I really don't feel like we need much SpAtk in base form, especially considering that we're likely fully investing in it. Too much starts to detract from the defensive-leaning role specified in the concept.

Another way to incentivize the "early game base form late game cleaner" gameplan is to maybe consider not calcing for clean OHKOs on certain threats when transformed. If they have to take some chip (from burn, from hazards, etc.) in order to be broken through, that actually might be a good thing.

I don't think there's a lot of risk of us dumping CAP song here. If we are viable at all as a mon (and I'm confident we will be), the cleaner will probably be viable, given how vulnerable the base form is and how potent the cleaner's dual STABs are.

 

[snake]

1) How much of a hindrance do we view having to use CAP Song in our moveset? How great is the burden of spending a turn transforming?

It’s a bit of a hindrance, but I think with the right state spreads, there are good advantages to transforming. Getting a second useful STAB in Ice - because it’s never running Flash Cannon - is fairly useful on its own.

2) How distinct do we want our formes to be in terms of archetype? Are we looking to bulk-max hard pre-Song and do a complete 180 post-Song?

The base form really needs good natural bulk to be able to chip down opponents. However, it’s important that our base form has some decent, but not great, power behind its attacking options. The direct damage behind STAB Inferno, Thunder, Blizzard, and Freeze Dry is useful for chipping down opponents into KO range for our sweeper form. It’s especially useful so we can actually force switches and get free turns. Basically, it shouldn’t be able to break through teams on its own, but it shouldn’t hit like a wet paper sack.

The sweeper form should focus more on special sweepiness than bulk. I think it’s acceptable to have enough physical bulk to survive some priority attacks if HP is managed well. I don’t think we can accomplish what Garchomp and Scizor can, due to Fire/Ice typing being worse defensively and a lack of a priority move in our toolkit.

3) Ultimately, the goal is to transform after weakening our checks with Inferno burns and our great coverage, as well as potentially utility moves. How best do we incentivize this line of using Cap Song late-game? Similarly, how do we ensure that our pre-Song forme is actually worth staying in early- and mid-game?

Actually, I think Cap Song being so middling in power somewhat encourages waiting to transform. When CAP36 hits the field early-game, it can either launch Inferno or Blizzard into a healthy Ting-Lu and make progress, or it can click Cap Song, do a tiny amount of chip, and be forced out since it can’t KO the health Ting-Lu.

This idea forces CAP36 to do its job of chipping down the opposing team in base form early-game. It’s better to make progress with one of its other moves than to lose a bunch of momentum clicking Cap Song and transforming before it’s ready to sweep.

The way we actualize this in stat spreads are as I described above. The defensive form needs good bulk to get on the field and some decent level of offensive pressure start wearing down checks, and then the offensive form needs to have the special sweepiness to make transforming and cleaning up worthwhile. I think the gameplan is there - we just need the right stat spreads to actualize it.

 

[RADU]

1) How much of a hindrance do we view having to use CAP Song in our moveset?

Functionally speaking it is a move akin to Shell Smash, increasing our offensive capabilities while reducing our defenses, on top of its ability to deal damage. While the effects of the move specifically will vary depending on what stat increase we are netting, it is at the very least comparable to a special dragon dance in terms of boosts, so it stands to be quite valuable and rarely considered a hindrance in and of itself.

How great is the burden of spending a turn transforming?

This, imo, heavily depends on our speed, in both ways. The higher bulk from our base form can make it favorable for us to transform by attacking second, letting our bulk tank a free hit. It is at the same time true that we are very susceptible to ground-type attacks that could OHKO us before we have a chance to transform. On the other hand going first can give us the opportunity to threaten a kill on the opponent while transforming, which makes for the best case scenario. We should consider, though, that a 75BP attack from our weaker form is unlikely to be enough to take out an opponent outright, and giving the opponent a free turn to hit our less bulky form with worse typing can lead to us dying before we accomplished anything meaningful. Speed is the name of the game and we need to balance ourselves to be fast enough to outspeed key threats while being slow enough to not die from strong opponents. Improper balance in this department could force us to either switch out or click a different move than CAP song, even in situations where we have reached an ideal sweeping scenario.

2) How distinct do we want our formes to be in terms of archetype? Are we looking to bulk-max hard pre-Song and do a complete 180 post-Song?

As discussed previously it is paramount for the pre-transform forme to be able to dish out a respectable amount of damage. Burn is certainly appreciated but there are plenty of fire types or other mons able to absorb the status, and we need to have enough offensive capabilities to make use of Thunder/Freeze-Dry to actually chip through these mons. Without enough offensive capability to enable ourselves for moveset compression, we may end up being forced to run fully defensive sets with Knock and Encore that our sweeper form will not be able to make use of, or forgo the defensive stage entirely and simply await for the transformation. Reaching this offensive threshold will, of course, be made easier given we are working with naturally high BP moves, but it will be challenging to balance a defensive Pokemon that requires enough offensive potential to make progress and enough speed to not be constantly threatened out without it outshining its transformed counterpart.
On the other hand, it is pretty important that our transformed form is able to sweep effectively, and that requires to be able to take certain Scarf or Priority hits. It will be incredibly tricky to balance considering we are expecting the defensive form to receive at least a few hits, so we cannot count on tanking these Scarf or Priority attacks while being at full hp. On the other hand we also don't wanna go too wild with the bulk on the offensive forme, otherwise the CAP could be bordering on unstoppable.

3) Ultimately, the goal is to transform after weakening our checks with Inferno burns and our great coverage, as well as potentially utility moves. How best do we incentivize this line of using Cap Song late-game? Similarly, how do we ensure that our pre-Song forme is actually worth staying in early- and mid-game?

I think it is important to avoid min-maxxing. In a vacuum, if both Pokemon existed individually, they should be able to establish themselves in the metagame as at least B tier Pokemon, and the ability to change form should be what allows skilled players to utilize CAP36 with A-tier and above levels of performance.
To actually incentivize form-changing late-game and utilizing pre-song form in early- and mid-game we need to solve a bit of a crisis riddle: how do we manage the shared health pool in a way that doesn't scare people out of utilizing either form of the Pokemon, but also doesn't turn either form into an unkillable beast?

At the lower end:
- Defensive CAP36 can be too brittle, so it makes most sense to save the HP for the transformation and utilize the rest of the team to weaken the opponent.
- Offensive CAP36 can be too easy to stop, so it makes most sense to invest all of our HP in the defensive form, spreading burns and making progress so one of our other Pokemon can sweep.

On the higher end:
- Defensive CAP36 can be too bulky, meaning we obtain too much value from it on its own to ever justify the transformation
- Offensive CAP36 can be too unstoppable, meaning there is more value in transforming while at full health instead of utilizing the defensive form to weaken the opposing team.

We have to land somewhere in-between, probably closer to the higher end, always considering the fact that other Pokemon on the team may end up being sufficient to set the stage for CAP36's cleaning, while CAP36's defensive progress can always be enough for another Pokemon to sweep. This in and of itself is not a problem, and will naturally occur, but it can be problematic if either form consistently sees more use than the other; we need both forms to be strong enough on their own to be worthwhile using over other Pokemon that share a similar role.

 

[Guingil]

How much of a hindrance do we view having to use CAP Song in our moveset? How great is the burden of spending a turn transforming?​

Ultimately, the goal is to transform after weakening our checks with Inferno burns and our great coverage, as well as potentially utility moves. How best do we incentivize this line of using Cap Song late-game? Similarly, how do we ensure that our pre-Song forme is actually worth staying in early- and mid-game?

I think the immediate burden of transforming really depends on the game situation. We can get a free-ish turn of CAP Song by KOing a slower mon with it, facing something that can't threaten us in any way, or by catching a switch. These are the best-case scenarios. The neutral (and I think more common) scenario is the bulkier Aria forme tanking a hit to transform endgame. Why I believe this to be more common and that forcing a switch is difficult late-game is: (a) we do not threaten huge damage in Aria, and (b) the threat of our status spreading/Knock has diminishing returns as the game progresses. The worst-case scenario is, of course, transforming into Pirouette and then getting hit.

An apt comparison would be Dragapult, spreading status early to later come in to fire off superpowered Hexes later. Imagine if we replaced its ready-made quality with a turn of extra setup, but gave it the extra bulk to tank a hit to make this transformation safely. The overall burden of having to use CAP Song is fashioning our playstyle to try to reach the best-case scenarios, which boils down to winning a won game. Which is exactly what normal cleaners do. BUT we do not have the luxury of knowing what HP% 36 will have if it's doing stuff early on as well. Which makes it an unreliable win condition. If we want to make the mon more usable across a range of situations, we reduce this burden and make the neutral scenario go in our favour most times as well with amazing bulk and conservative play early game.

I like RADU’s comparison of CAP Song to a more restrained version of Shell Smash. Other parallels that come to mind include Battle Bond Greninja or Unburden users who trigger the speed boost with Close Combat.​

How distinct do we want our formes to be in terms of archetype? Are we looking to bulk-max hard pre-Song and do a complete 180 post-Song? A way to look at this for post-Song is how some sweepers a la Garchomp and Scizor have useful defensive profiles we can tap into, whereas something like Weavile or Deoxys is just balls to the walls offense.

Rather than making two well-rounded mons that are good but not great at their defensive and cleaning roles, I think it's more interesting to make two mons that can excel at their individual roles, with Aria really enabling and ensuring an already highly offensively inclined Pirouette to function as a cleaner, rather than Pirouette being "self sufficient" at the cost of lower offensive stats (and the bulk is even less meaningful as 36 will be chipped in most cases it is used in Aria). And with how bulky the CAP meta is anyway, to break through it, we need to go all in on the Aria helping + higher offensive stats on Pirouette direction.

Similarly, I don't particularly want Aria to be so good offensively as to move away from hit-and-run, spreading status, and punishing switch-in tactics.
​

 

[Amamama]

1) How much of a hindrance do we view having to use CAP Song in our moveset? How great is the burden of spending a turn transforming?

Overall idt it’s a large hinderance. Of course we lose a slot to a weakish move but our coverais really good even with just STAB options. IMO you can view CAP Song as a Speed and Attack boosting move like Dragon Dance or Shell Smash. In a way CAP song is a version of moves like Flame Charge or Torch Song.
While compared to these it doesn’t provide the opportunity to boost multiple times, the boost can be much more extreme, changes our typing to be more offensive, is permanent (as long as you stay in) and ignores Unaware.
Looking at mons that have been able to utilize moves like these Speed or Attack Boosting Attacks should give us some info on how this could work for 36s cleaner form. two mons I think have some similarities in how they want to play as a cleaner are ogerpon with trailblaze (to a lesser extent also Heartbflame oger) and Ash Greninja.

2) How distinct do we want our formes to be in terms of archetype? Are we looking to bulk-max hard pre-Song and do a complete 180 post-Song?

I think the transformation should for sure be extreme to come close to the boosts of the likes of Dragon Dance or even Shift Gear.
I don’t think the Base for should be utterly weak offensively I don’t even think it needs to hit much less hard than 36P and vice versa I believe 36p should at least have some bulk physically to not falter immediately against priority users like Gambit.
I definitely think there needs to be a noticeable jump in speed between both and a noticeable reduction in bulk. How large these differences can be imo also depends on how big the gap between 36b and 36p SpA is.

Ultimately, the goal is to transform after weakening our checks with Inferno burns and our great coverage, as well as potentially utility moves. How best do we incentivize this line of using Cap Song late-game? Similarly, how do we ensure that our pre-Song forme is actually worth staying in early- and mid-game?

At this point with this typing and ability every ounce of bulk we can manage on the base form will be necessary to get us closer to this goal.
That Said a decent Speed Tier to threaten other defensive mons with crippling Status or SE coverage as well as being powerful enough to inflict lasting Damage on switch ins are similarly important.
Overall I think the base form should have a well rounded Spread with an emphasis on bulk, while the cleaner form should end up extremely focused on Attack and Speed.

we're allowed to have pretty wild stats on the cleaner compared to a normal process, particularly in speed, since the threat level posed by big speed is mitigated by a large extent by being transformation locked.

WRT this I’ve been thinking about the possibility of basing the SS of the cleaner on the base Speed and SpA of the Base Form much like we’d do for a sweeper with a speed boosting move, with the difference that the stat stage change isn’t fixed as it would with something like Dragon Dance. Therefore there still would need to be penalties on more extreme speed and or Attack changes.

Basically imagine Stat limits for a Mon that runs Dragon Dance, vs the same Mon that runs shift gear, vs the same Mon that runs shell Smash. The Sweepiness limit would be the same overall but have penalties depending on the power of the boost.

 

[quziel]

WRT this I’ve been thinking about the possibility of basing the SS of the cleaner on the base Speed and SpA of the Base Form much like we’d do for a sweeper with a speed boosting move, with the difference that the stat stage change isn’t fixed as it would with something like Dragon Dance. Therefore there still would need to be penalties on more extreme speed and or Attack changes.

Basically imagine Stat limits for a Mon that runs Dragon Dance, vs the same Mon that runs shift gear, vs the same Mon that runs shell Smash. The Sweepiness limit would be the same overall but have penalties depending on the power of the boost.

Lets say we define SS for the cleaner as SpA[Base] x Speed[Base]

I'm going to disagree with this. The base assumption behind the SS formula is that as speed increases you get more threatening. I'm not convinced this is true here, as a slower / tankier base forme may actually be more threatening than a faster / frailer base forme. The sweepiness of the cleaner is meaningfully improved as the cleaner gets faster and stronger, so we should realistically stick with the standard sweepiness formula for both formes.

2) How distinct do we want our formes to be in terms of archetype? Are we looking to bulk-max hard pre-Song and do a complete 180 post-Song?

There's 2 routes we can go for here. We can argue that the threat of burn, para, etc is enough for the base forme to still create space regardless of its overall offensive stats, and as a result we'll get a mon that has the space to click Song even with Shuckle stats. The other route is to argue that burn, para, etc is not enough to create space, and the base forme should probably share either speed or special attack with the cleaner forme. Imo these are about equally valid, as burn/para/etc absolutely is enough to create some space, but at the same time having high speed or special attack will create significantly more space. I suppose the argument I'm coming around to is just high(er) individual SS/PS/PT/ST limits and lower BSR limit.

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

There's 2 routes we can go for here. We can argue that the threat of burn, para, etc is enough for the base forme to still create space regardless of its overall offensive stats, and as a result we'll get a mon that has the space to click Song even with Shuckle stats. The other route is to argue that burn, para, etc is not enough to create space, and the base forme should probably share either speed or special attack with the cleaner forme. Imo these are about equally valid, as burn/para/etc absolutely is enough to create some space, but at the same time having high speed or special attack will create significantly more space. I suppose the argument I'm coming around to is just high(er) individual SS/PS/PT/ST limits and lower BSR limit.

I believe that higher Special Attack on the base form is more impactful in this regard than higher Speed on it. Considering 36-base's bulkiness, a moderately powerful 36-base is plenty capable of pressuring Pokemon that cannot threaten it, regardless of its Speed stat. A fast but weak 36-base isn't much better at this than a Shuckle spread in my opinion, as it still mostly applies pressure through status. Fast status is nice, but mostly to assist in the base's survivability, such as by applying burn prior to incoming physical attacks, rather than helping it force progress like Special Attack does.

 

[Rabia]

Good discussion so far :J here are the general observations:

- Bulkmaxxing into powermaxxing is viewed as a reasonable route, but sentiment is that pre-Song shouldn't necessarily be a wall and nothing but that. Some innate power behind it to make its moves more than just annoying may help to actually set your late-game up.
- Cap Song's opportunity cost is mixed. On one hand, yeah it's a pretty useless move that we likely won't be using other than when we need to transform. On the other hand, it's not impossible to get free turns when you're forcing a foe out or getting a KO. The main hang-up is simply having to run the move. Speed perhaps is the solution.

I have a few more questions I want discussion on:

1) How well can we expect post-Song to be resilient to priority considering pre-Song won't be running recovery? How would benchmarking for a move like Kingambit's Sucker Punch look?
2) It's worth remembering that HP will be shared between formes. What leeway do we gain with SS and defensive stats for our post-Song forme? Is it significant enough to really take into account?
3) What's more valuable when considering the SS of pre-Song forme: speed or power? As in, is it better for Inferno to do more damage along with burning, or is it better to threaten more Pokemon with burn? How does this play into transforming with Cap Song?

I am welcoming of explicit BSR and stat limits being mentioned, but do not formally submit anything yet. We're just looking for numbers that allow us to fulfill certain benchmarks that may be useful to address based on questions :D

Another 48h of discussion and then we'll move on once again!

 

[RADU]

1) How well can we expect post-Song to be resilient to priority considering pre-Song won't be running recovery? How would benchmarking for a move like Kingambit's Sucker Punch look?

This is probably one of the trickiest things to figure out, and calcs as a whole are gonna be a mess because of the shared HP pool, but let's give it a shot.

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Sucker Punch vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (80 Base) Def CAP36: 219-258 (68.2 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I don't think this is an unreasonable damage range to assume. The amount of allies fainted can vary, we assume 0 bulk invest since investing in offenses is beneficial to both forms, to that extent the base stats I picked are around the top line of what's reasonable (you still die to something like earthquake from 0atk great tusk), but also near the point where the Kingambit scenario actually ends up mattering (too low and there's no chance you tank).

Let's vaguely assume Heavy-Duty-Boots as first scenario, since hazards are annoying to take into account and rocks + 1 layer of spike already put you in range.

Let's go over the types of hits our Aria form can take while being able to reasonable tank Kingambit Sucker.

For this scenario I picked a 90 / 125 / 115 base bulk, to mimic a Pokemon like Zamazenta who sits in a similar role of being able to take hits for the team while also being able to come out late and sweeping, and also doesn't often get to invest directly in its defenses. It's not a 1-to-1 but gives us a frame of reference

0 Atk burned Circle Throw vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (125 Base) Def CAP36: 58-70 (18 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (125 Base) Def CAP36: 57-67 (17.7 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Future Sight vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (125 Base) Def CAP36: 63-74 (19.6 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Sharpness burned Ceaseless Edge vs.0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (125 Base) Def CAP36: 57-68 (17.7 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Extreme Speed vs.0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (125 Base) Def CAP36: 40-48 (12.4 - 14.9%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Ice Beam vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (125 Base) Def CAP36: 48-57 (14.9 - 17.7%) -- possible 6HKO


you have to kinda get picky to find relevant hits you take. It does mean you get to sit on arghonaut once to click inferno on its switchin and then thunder, you get leverage on pecharunt coming in at least for one cycle, get to absorb fsight, can 1v1 samuh if it really wants to get up, and then be in range enough to sweep despite kingambit in the back.

now let's observe with leftovers. hazards are again tricky but we'll assume that lefties is able to cancel out rocks dmg in the turns you're out and that you're not sending this guy in with more hazards out.

Let's assume that:
You take the hit and heal on that same turn, force a switch or a kill and transform for free, maybe manage to get a kill before kingambit is sent in -> 12 - 18% healing

252 SpA Dark Pulse vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (125 Base) Def CAP36: 120-142 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
196 SpA Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (125 Base) Def CAP36: 76-90 (23.6 - 28%) -- 85.7% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Shadow Ball vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (125 Base) Def CAP36: 99-117 (30.8 - 36.4%) -- 55.1% chance to 3HKO
152 Atk Shadow Strike vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (125 Base) Def CAP36: 93-111 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 4.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Triage burned Drain Punch vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (125 Base) Def CAP36: 96-114 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 23% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Volt Switch vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (125 Base) Def CAP36: 72-85 (22.4 - 26.4%) -- 16.9% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Flamethrower vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (125 Base) Def CAP36: 105-124 (32.7 - 38.6%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO

These are quite a few more relevant hits that you'd be able to take and still potentially manage to tank Kingambit's sucker.

There are a lot of uncertainties, assumptions, buts, maybes but since we're theorymonning a statline I believe that everything ends up balancing out and you get a somewhat acceptable outlook on how these breakpoints look like.

As it stands, this would still count as pretty hefty investment in both forms; 90 / 125 is comparable to Iron Treads level bulk, while 90 / 80 is comparable to Samurott-Hisui level bulk. It can lead to the side effect of the pirouette form being a bit too bulky, which can bring to undesirable effects:
252 Def burned Body Press vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (80 Base) CAP36: 144-171 (44.8 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk burned Earthquake vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (80 Base) CAP36: 147-174 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Don't think I have to spell out why this is problematic.
Tanking something like Kingambit's Sucker Punch with a certain amount of fallen allies requires a level of commitment in the defensive profile of our offensive form on top of the defenses of our defensive form, and we should tread carefully when considering this option.

I think it's still worth considering, but we may limit ourselves to tanking 1-2 allies fainted sucker, and other more reasonable priority concerns

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Sucker Punch vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (80 Base) CAP36: 186-220 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Normal Extreme Speed vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (80 Base) CAP36: 178-210 (55.4 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Triage burned Drain Punch vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (80 Base) CAP36: 139-165 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aqua Jet vs. 0 (90 Base) HP / 0 (80 Base) CAP36: 140-168 (43.6 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Maybe a higher defense in base and a lower defense in offensive form that still allows us to tank these types of hits is the way to go

2) It's worth remembering that HP will be shared between formes. What leeway do we gain with SS and defensive stats for our post-Song forme? Is it significant enough to really take into account?

The biggest concern for many sweepers with high levels of bulk is that unlike other mons that are used as a defensive backbone these mons are sent out on the field perfectly intact, and when your tools to deal with the sweeper have been tampered with it can be really difficult to deal 100% hp to a mon that is incredibly fast and strong, especially if the bulk is non-negligible. This is not the case for our CAP, many times it will be using its hp to cripple the opposing team and going out on the field requires the use of CAPsong which reduces its survivability significantly. This should allow for higher bulk in the sweeper form.
The Speed of the post-song form is also something we should have a lot of leeway with. The Pokemon itself does not act as speed control, since you're not ever gonna use the transformation to deal with a threat, and if you were to do so it'd be akin to using a defensive Pokemon as a counter, since you're still gonna have to tank a hit. For the sweeper form to properly function despite all of these barriers its important it be able to handle nearly all fast Pokemon in the metagame in the first place, or it can end up being wasted effort. I would not try to go up to Deoxys-Speed level but it would be enjoyable to outspeed the likes of Dragapult, Scarf Gholdengo and potentially Booster Great Tusk.

3) What's more valuable when considering the SS of pre-Song forme: speed or power? As in, is it better for Inferno to do more damage along with burning, or is it better to threaten more Pokemon with burn? How does this play into transforming with Cap Song?

More than Inferno, it's Thunder (or Freeze-Dry) that needs to hit hard enough for the progress to be actually visible. It's true that we like to spread status but the objective of a move like Thunder is primarily to be able to hit the waters and fires that check us, and if that damage ends up being easy to shrug off it can end up with our CAP running one too many support moves in its stead, sabotaging our offensive form, or not using the defensive form at all and skipping straight to the form that actually does damage.
Speed is also not as worthwhile without the SpA to threaten things out. If our Blizzards are not killing Gliscors and Great Tusks, our Thunders are not outdamaging Arghonaut's healing and our Infernos are not 2hkoing Equilibras what are we even threatening out in the first place?
Speed is certainly important but only in the context of what we are able to do with it, Inferno is not gonna threaten burn as much if the opponent can just tank it, and we're most likely to threaten burns with Inferno on a switch anyways.

 

[Shock3600]

1) How well can we expect post-Song to be resilient to priority considering pre-Song won't be running recovery? How would benchmarking for a move like Kingambit's Sucker Punch look?
If we expect the base form to come in and help set up the sweeper form for success- coming in once or twice- the sweeper form is not only going to be uninvested, or having minimal defensive investment, but is most likely going to be lower health. A higher speed base form can help mitigate this, due to the possibility of transforming against a weakened foe without it getting a chance to damage 36. I would expect that sweeper 36 is only ever realsitically taking weak and resisted priority moves in actual game states, such as hemogoblin's extreme speed. Dnite tera normal e-speed and supreme overlord boosted sucker punches are going to be much harder to live with any chip. What could be worth looking at for benchmarks however is strong priority, assuming a defensive tera to resist it. Living a fully powered sucker punch is going to be very difficult, but living one despite chip if 36 resists it with tera is much more feasible and still potentially meaningful, if not the highest priority due to its competition with offensive teras.

 

[snake]

3) What's more valuable when considering the SS of pre-Song forme: speed or power? As in, is it better for Inferno to do more damage along with burning, or is it better to threaten more Pokemon with burn? How does this play into transforming with Cap Song?

Going to focus on this question for this post.

I think it makes sense for speed, much like special attack, to be similarly decent, but not great. Decent speed allows CAP36 to force switches a little more easily, as it can inflicting burns before physical attackers can move artificially inflates our bulk. Qualitatively, I just don’t see how making our base form really slow and consequently really bulky makes us more effective than somewhat fast and still fairly bulky. So, kind of a cop out answer to the question, but I don’t think we want a major focus in either special attack or speed. We should just be decent in both.

Having decent speed also helps enable what I think will be one of CAP36’s better items: Air Balloon. The more switches that CAP36 can force (or otherwise avoid taking damage), the longer that CAP36 can preserve its Air Balloon.

Another angle: In order to enable the cleaner form best, CAP36 is more than likely forced to run maximum special attack and maximum speed EVs (unless we give the cleaner form Deoxys-Speed levels of speed). I think we should have special attack and speed stats that make it feel at least feel worthwhile to have max/near max investment in base form.

 

[Amamama]

1) How well can we expect post-Song to be resilient to priority considering pre-Song won't be running recovery? How would benchmarking for a move like Kingambit's Sucker Punch look?

It’s obvious that benchmarking to perfectly live a 5 allies fainted +2 Gambit Suckerpunch after rocks from full is useless on a Mon that won’t be at full health most likely during an endgame.
It still makes sense to create a build that can be resilient into common priority users that would like to stop this Mon from cleaning. Making it so that this Mon can maybe tank an unboosted 5 allies Sucker from like 70% as a bonus for a player managing 36s health well, seems correct. I think the big two are Gambit and Raging Bolt here as we should be able to beat both with our STABs in a 1v1 endgame (assuming Tera isn’t in the picture).

It's worth remembering that HP will be shared between formes. What leeway do we gain with SS and defensive stats for our post-Song forme? Is it significant enough to really take into account?

this is interesting to think about, bc Higher HP stats will mean less flexibility to reallocate stats for the cleaner form.
Take an extreme like Blissey where half the stats go to HP, which means the remaining BST might not be sufficient to accommodate the necessary offensive stats (obviously this is an extreme case, but it’s still worth thinking about this when considering HP stats for the Base form.
Another consideration is the cases where 36 might want to actually invest in Bulk. Most often HP investment is optimal for mons that can’t fully invest In defenses. Lower HP with higher defenses will allow more drastic Bulk increases through EV allocation in HP, and benefits both forms bulk equally.
This is especially interesting for spreads that look to go further than speed creeping standard cleaner mons like zama and pult.
Overall lower HP stats will give us more flexibility in the rest of the spread.

 

[Amamama]

3) What's more valuable when considering the SS of pre-Song forme: speed or power? As in, is it better for Inferno to do more damage along with burning, or is it better to threaten more Pokemon with burn? How does this play into transforming with Cap Song?

I believe the trade off here is between the amount of turns you want to spend until you can pop off the cleaner form and the ease of maneuvering cap 36.

A faster 36 means more easily being able to threaten other Mons and more opportunities to do so bc given our typing and means of progress 36 will gain room when outspeeding threats it can threaten with se damage or status.
That said being faster but weaker means the damage we can inflict on switch ins is going to take more time to build up, which means more time until 36 can pop off and given how easily 36 will wear down without recovery, its susceptibility to hazards and chip from attacks and the lower PP of its main attack, I feel like the benefit of being slightly easier to maneuver will have diminishing returns.
IMO CAP 36 is a Mon that wants to make progress as aggressively as possible to get into the cleaner form as fast as possible, which is supported by higher damage output. With that in mind, making it slower will mean making it harder to use as it’s easier to threaten out and possibly harder to find opportunities to come in.

Another thing to note is that we’re looking at a defensive Mon that will most likely (fully) invest in Speed. Which in turn means lower than usual speed stats might not be a problem unless we believe that the mons we want to threaten have room to creep past our fastest speed stat.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

1) How well can we expect post-Song to be resilient to priority considering pre-Song won't be running recovery? How would benchmarking for a move like Kingambit's Sucker Punch look?

I'm honestly not expecting us to have much resllience to priority in our cleaner form if I'm being entirely honest, at least when it comes down to our raw stats. Our gameplan very much dictates that we are going to be taking damage throughout the battle, and with the exception of Extreme Speed from Hemogoblin, we don't resist any common forms of priority in the tier in our cleaner form. As a result, any reslience to priority that comes here is more likely going to end up coming from our ability to spread burns rather than through raw bulk, and I don't actually think we should really be putting too much more focus into our cleaner form's physical bulk here than what is required to do that.

As for Kingambit, I'm ngl, it very much feels like a lost cause. We are not really going to be putting ourselves in a position where we are really going to be able to fire off Inferno on Kingambit that often, since it's either going to switch out (Since its weak to Inferno and really doesn't like getting burned) or click Tera Fire. I think the most you can really expect to get away with here is like being able to live an unboosted Sucker Punch from last mon Kingambit, and even that might be a bit tera dependent.

3) What's more valuable when considering the SS of pre-Song forme: speed or power? As in, is it better for Inferno to do more damage along with burning, or is it better to threaten more Pokemon with burn? How does this play into transforming with Cap Song?

My thoughts on this matter are very similar to snake's in that I really don't think we should really be prioritizing either of these, and instead we should sort of be looking to be fairly decent in both of these departments. While I have seen the idea of doing a Melmetal-esque spread on the base form float around a fair amount, I think these types of spreads are going to face a pretty big issue in that it's going to end up being fairly hard to capitlize on our ability to spread burns if we aren't really outspeeding some of our bigger threats (Especially since it's looking like Air Balloon is going to be a fairly popular item for CAP36 for reasons that I don't think need to be elaborated on). Conversely, being too weak means we risk being very passive in our base form, which is something that I generally think should be avoided.

 

[Rabia]

Consensus is that specific stat allocation for priority moves is likely to prove unfruitful due to how this CAP plays. In addition, the community seems to prefer a more balanced speed:power ratio for our base forme due to each being integral to our self-walllbreaking.

I'd now like to formally open up stat limit submissions. We'll aim to get this part finished in the next 48 hours too, so make sure to post.

 

[RADU]

Base
We established that we like a mouthful of Power and Speed, which means our SS is certainly gonna be a little higher than normal, but I would put a limit at 120 SS, which would be 103 SpA and 99 Spe. 100 speed is a symbolic benchmark for Pokemon that can be considered decently fast, and we really don't wanna break into that, but right below 100 still allows us to outspeed mons on our wishlist like Gliscor and Lando-T.

For the SpA, Timid 252EVs base 103 would allow us to OHKO Gliscor with non-STAB Blizzard even if it has maximum SpD invest, and really there's no need to go much higher than this; if our damage starts getting too close to the transformed form it risks not being as useful.

I would never really go under 88 Spe, Great Tusk is the lower end of everything we wanna threaten and if we underspeed him then it will be really hard to ever get any leverage.

I also think going under 90 SpA can end up falling short of a lot of the damages needed to make the progress outside of status worthwhile.

That adds up to a 100.58 SS lower limit

Transformed
I would like to suggest 162 as base speed limit for the transformed form. Our opportunity cost for transforming gives us the chance to be blazingly fast, since we can't leverage that speed directly. 162 base speed allows us to outspeed Booster Tusk, Scarf LandoT, non-Timid Deoxys-Speed and gives us the freedom of going Modest with max speed invest and still be able to outspeed Dragapult. It is a very viable path forward but there is genuinely no reason to go any higher without giving way too much freedom to invest in bulk.
I would put our lower limit for Speed at 143. Underspeeding Dragapult as a cleaner is really really bad; there are certainly Pokemon with certain sets that should be able to shut you down, aka Deoxys-Speed and certain Scarfers, but Dragapult is a strong, viable and popular mon that is difficult to take down and its entire existence would pretty much put our viability in jeopardy.
For SpA, I feel like 143 is a solid limit. Our main gameplan revolves around cleaning, not breaking; Timid 252 EVs Base 143 SpA allows us to OHKO max HP Gholdengo and max HP Dragonite from full, and that's more than we can ask for. Going higher than this could inadvertedly make it a little too strong.
Case in point: at 143 SpA with a Modest nature Thunder does max 99.7% to max HP Moltres, which is plenty.
122 could be a good lower limit. We need a big enough difference in SpA from our base form to be usable and 122 is just enough SpA to 2HKO Equilibra, with Leftovers and Burn canceling each other out. Any lower and we would be in a ton of trouble even in potentially winning MUs.

This would put our SS somewhere between 155.07 and 176.86. This may seem a bit high but really I could not see it any other way.

 

[dex]

Time to talk about my favorite part of stat limits... SPEED.

I will assume investment of 252 Speed with a positive nature, as the transformation forme will surely prefer it.

Base

Something to consider when thinking about base CAP 36's Speed limits is the Pokemon it will be asked to answer on occasion. Steel-types are often tasked with checking Dragon-types, and I think the most useful lower bound for Speed should reflect this. This would suggest a lower bound that covers Raging Bolt, a floor of 76. However, there are many other Pokemon in that Speed region that CAP 36 would appreciate a good matchup into, chief among them being Gholdengo. Accordingly, I believe the lower bound for Speed should be 85. While I do think slower builds (down to 76) are doable, you are really limiting the offensive pressure CAP 36 can exert in its base forme, which is not desirable given the playstyle Inferno suggests.

The upper bound for Speed in the base forme has more considerations to think about, namely how it interacts with the Song forme and your desire as the user to switch to it. The highest I can foresee Speed going while not encroaching on the transformation forme and still hitting notable benchmarks is 111, which targets Ogerpon and various Pokemon below it such as Walking Wake and Keldeo. Ogerpon is a fairly important benchmark to hit, removing it as a means of offensively pressuring CAP 36 out (or at the very least forcing a Tera).

I do not believe BSR penalties are totally necessary regarding Speed for the base forme, as this range of Speed is where BSR balancing is at its best. Faster spreads will need to compromise power or bulk to achieve desired benchmarks, while slower spreads gain access to strength and bulk.

Proposed base forme Speed limits: 85 - 111
Proposed BSR penalties: N/A

I could be convinced that the lower limit could be lower down to 76, but I don't think I would want to vote for something that doesn't compete with Gholdengo in the Speed department.

Song

As has been discussed, high Speed is very much a great way to encourage a transformation out of CAP 36. A Pokemon that is a prime target to realize CAP 36's concept is Cresceidon, which CAP 36 can chip (and prevent Multiscale) with Inferno and then pressure with a bigger attack after a transformation. To me, this give a very clean lower bound of 125 Speed; however, there are two strong attackers that could try to pressure CAP 36 with a Speed tie at that bound, so I would increase the lower bound to 126 to account for Weavile and, more importantly, Darkrai.

The upper limit is not as clean cut as the lower limit for the song forme. As you ascend the Speed tiers, common matchups become more and more sparce. Outspeeding Dragapult seems somewhat desirable, but that puts the Song forme in incredibly rarified air, and going past Dragapult leads to some very niche situations that may not be worth considering. That being said, I think having absolutely supreme Speed is an incredible way to incentivize the transformation, and the matchup I think top Speed should ensure is +1 Great Tusk. This would necessitate an upper bound of 156, putting CAP 36 above some scarfers like Gholdengo and potential revenge killers like Dragapult and Zamazenta.

Unlike the base forme's more middling Speed limits proposed above, extremely high Speed does have odd BSR interactions, as it doesn't always reflect the value of being the fastest Pokemon in a match. Therefore, BSR penalties for very high Speed should be implemented. I believe that the most important benchmarks to hit are 139 (Zamazenta), 143 (Dragapult), and 151 (Choice Scarf Gholdengo), and that each benchmark should come with a -5 BSR penalty attached to it.

Proposed song forme Speed limits: 126 - 156
Proposed BSR penalties: (>138: -5), (>142: -5), (>150: -5)

 

[quziel]

Dont see much of a point in lower bounds for speed for the base forme. Being slower than attackers like gholdengo let's you tank a terad ghold in your base forme then finish it off. I'll expand this tomorrow.

 

[spoo]

I agree with the above; lower speed spreads interact with CAP Song in a unique and powerful way by allowing us to move twice, ie opponent attacks -> 36 attacks & transforms -> 36 attacks again. I think that higher speed spreads are certainly better in general, but, lower speeds still offer something interesting and shouldn’t be needlessly restricted.

Throwing out some rough numbers, going mostly on vibe so take this with a grain of salt. Working with T-values of 3 and 1.5 here, aka we can expect the base form to be on the field for 3 turns before getting a KO, and the pirouette form for 1.5. For people confused about T-values, I will link this post I made here a couple years ago.

Heatran’s BSR is 606, which clearly isn’t good enough to carry a defensive fire/steel in this meta. With heatran conveniently offering us this baseline, we know that we need more, but the question is how much? I’d argue 640-650 overall BSR makes sense for the base. This is very strong, but mitigated by the fact that almost all spreads will be accounting for Knock Off, Thunder, or both, which should be accompanied by BSR penalties. Probably -5 for the base and no penalty for the cleaner if Knock, and -5 to each form if Thunder; imo Freeze Dry+Knock is about as good as Blizzard+Thunder in base, but the latter is stronger in pirouette form.

Individual limits are a little harder. I like dex’s higher bounds on speed of 111 and 156 for base/pirouette respectively. His proposed BSR penalties for each additional speed benchmark past Zama seem a little harsh, though; I don’t hate the idea, but perhaps something like -2 instead of -5 is more appropriate, as mons like scarf ghold and booster tusk are quite rare in the grand scheme. Still, having a small penalty in place makes sense, otherwise there is no reason not to just hit the speed ceiling given the current BSR formula. SS feels solid around 120 for base, which comes out to 97 spa/111 spe (the limit), 110/90, and 127/70. Nothing eye-popping, which imo is for the best; this mon is defensive first and foremost. For pirouette, I’d suggest 160-170 SS which roughly translates to 130/145 offenses at a T-value of 1.5. This is a shitton, but probably called for. Overall BSR has gotta be super high too. Just messing around in the calc (very scientific) leads me to believe something like 660 is appropriate when considering that penalties for speed / defining moves will be in the equation.

May or may not edit bulk suggestions in later

Tldr
base: speed =< 111, SS 120, -5 BSR for knock and thunder each, ~640 BSR, T=3
pirouette: speed =< 156, SS ~165, -2 BSR for each speed benchmark past zama, -5 BSR for thunder, ~660 BSR, T=1.5

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

Heatran’s BSR is 606, which clearly isn’t good enough to carry a defensive fire/steel in this meta. With heatran conveniently offering us this baseline, we know that we need more, but the question is how much?

36 isn't just a defensive Fire/Steel, though. Does the base form actually need to be on par with OU's best in and of itself? Surely the ability to transform into a potent cleaner is enough to make a Heatran-tier Pokemon highly viable. It's not like that would necessarily result in a base form that exists only to click Song, either. Heatran may not be the best, but B- rank is nothing to scoff at, and I'm sure a 36-base with its stats would provide plenty of value throughout a match. I fear that constructing 36-base to be a top-of-the-line mon all on its own could result in a Pokemon that has no reason to transform.

 

[spoo]

36 isn't just a defensive Fire/Steel, though. Does the base form actually need to be on par with OU's best in and of itself? Surely the ability to transform into a potent cleaner is enough to make a Heatran-tier Pokemon highly viable. It's not like that would necessarily result in a base form that exists only to click Song, either. Heatran may not be the best, but B- rank is nothing to scoff at, and I'm sure a 36-base with its stats would provide plenty of value throughout a match. I fear that constructing 36-base to be a top-of-the-line mon all on its own could result in a Pokemon that has no reason to transform.

This is a valid worry, but not one I entirely agree with. I see where you're coming from; after all, we're trying to encourage the transformation here, so we do have to be careful not to make the base form too self-sufficient. However, I think we took huge strides towards resolving this fear during the typing stage. An offensive fire/ice mon is so vastly superior to a defensive fire/steel mon that no matter how good our base form is, it's always going to want to access those superior traits. We don't have reliable recovery like some other bulky steels, or the utility of hazards that Heatran can provide, meaning that the base form will always struggle to be self-sufficient and provide worthwhile value to a team without transforming. Like I really don't know what viable moveset this can run without CAP Song. I really believe that our transformation is properly incentivized at this point.

The base form needs to a) be a useful defensive mon, b) make progress for the pirouette form to take advantage of, and c) stay healthy enough for the pirouette form to do its job. Ultimately, it needs stats to do these things well. It has a subpar defensive typing and an ability that doesn't really help it be defensive; if it wants to act as a wall in any capacity, it needs stats. Our base form desparately needs a win at some point, and now is the time to give it one. I don't believe we should be a top-of-the-line A+ defensive mon, nor do I believe we should be a middling Heatran-esque B- tier flop that just spends all game waiting to transform; the challenge of this stage is finding the acceptable middle ground there.

 

[Rabia]

gonna extend discussion by another 48 hours due to low participation so far