CAP 38 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[Da Pizza Man]

CAP 38 So Far

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Please pay very close attention to Guingil's posts during this thread and remain on topic. DO NOT begin by posting massive lists of abilities!

Some general rules for this discussion:

• Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
• Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Fully Banned Abilities group

Arena Trap
As One
Aura Break
Aura Guard
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Beads Of Ruin
Beast Boost *
Chilling Neigh
Commander
Dark Aura
Dauntless Shield
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Dragon's Maw
Dragonize
Eelevate
Embody Aspect
Fairy Aura
Fire Mane
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Grim Neigh
Gulp Missile
Hadron Engine
Hunger Switch
Ice Face
Illusion
Imposter
Intrepid Sword
Mega Sol
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Orichalcum Pulse
Piercing Drill
Poison Puppeter
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
Protosynthesis *
Quark Drive *
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Soul Heart
Spicy Spray
Stance Change
Sword Of Ruin
Tablets Of Ruin
Tera Shell
Tera Shift
Teraform Zero
Teravolt
Toxic Chain
Transistor
Turboblaze
Unseen Fist
Vessel Of Ruin
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode
Zero To Hero

* These abilities will only be unbanned on a concept which is based around this ability - Such as an Ultra Beast or Paradox Pokemon

Soft Banned Abilities group

These abilities are banned by default and should not be discussed barring exceptional cases. If you believe one of these abilities should be considered, you can make a post trying to explain why an exception is warranted in this specific case and if both the TL and Ability Leader agree, it will be allowed. If the TLT disagrees with the unbanning proposal, they should be considered fully banned and should not be further discussed.

Bulletproof
Color Change*
Defeatist
Dry Skin
Earth Eater
Flash Fire
Fur Coat
Good As Gold
Gorilla Tactics
Huge Power
Ice Scales
Libero*
Levitate
Lightning Rod
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Magnet Pull
Mimicry*
Motor Drive
Parental Bond
Protean*
Pure Power
Purifying Salt
Regenerator
Sap Sipper
Slow Start
Stall
Storm Drain
Truant
Volt Absorb
Water Absorb
Water Bubble
Well Baked Body
Wind Rider

*These abilities can only be considered for an unban if the Ability stage is done before typing.

Secondary Ability ban group

Comatose
Drizzle
Drought
Electric Surge
Fluffy
Grassy Surge
Innards Out
Misty Surge
Prankster
Psychic Surge
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost
Stamina
Steam Engine
Supreme Overlord
Toxic Debris
Triage

Flavor ability only ban group

Ball Fetch
Battery
Costar
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power Spot
Power of Alchemy
Propeller Tail
Receiver
Run Away
Stalwart
Symbiosis
Telepathy

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Primary Ability banlist

Fully Banned Abilities group + Soft Banned Abilities group + flavor ability-only group

Secondary Ability banlist

Fully Banned Abilities group + Soft Banned Abilities group + secondary ability group + flavor ability-only group

Flavor Ability banlist

Primary ability group + secondary ability group

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I'll now hand this over to Guingil to make the first post in the thread. Please have a good discussion.

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Ability banlist PRC threads:

• US/UM: http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7391668
• SW/SH: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3659245/
• S/V: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3715273/

 

[Guingil]

Hi friends, it's your Ability Leader, guingil, ready to do some abilitying. After a fantastic typing stage with loads of discussion, we have landed on… / for mini-Eternatus’s typing! The inclusion of over opens up new possibilities while posing interesting challenges in the OU/CAP metagame, which we will build upon with a suitable ability. I'll get us started with a set of questions to feel out where people are at, given that we are in a pretty unique situation with a model to emulate.

Perhaps it is most appropriate to have a closer look at the source material, which is my first question:

1) Which aspects of Eternatus’ usage of Pressure are important to translate, if at all?

Like many Pokemon in its home tier, Eternatus gets the “dump” ability of Pressure; however, it actually works on Eternatus. I think that’s interesting. But is it important for us to replicate this aspect of the ability (not necessarily Pressure) being relatively low-impact but still useful because of the kit? If not, which aspects of an ability would you say can make CAP38 really feel like Eternatus? In fact, is the ability even defining for the entire Pokemon, or only for specific sets?

This line of questioning might seem secondary to viability concerns, but I hope to get a compass here for what is pro-concept as well as an estimate of the power budget an ability can take. My second question, perhaps the one most on people’s minds, looks at a different angle:

2) Does our offensive and/or defensive prowess compared to Eternatus need help through ability?

The brilliant piptochi explains the merits of the winning typing in their post. Grass is quite different compared to Dragon as an offensive type, exchanging the latter’s neutrality for a spread of useful super effective hits as well as resistances. Our 2-move and 3-move coverage profiles are undeniably affected by this change; not to mention our defensive profile. Add to that the fact that we're in a completely different tier. How do all these differences affect the functioning of mini-Eternatus? Is it necessary that we address the lacking aspects right here in the ability stage? If so, in general terms, what are the ways to go about it?

And finally, something more about giving CAP38 something to differentiate itself in its new home:

3) Does the ability need to open up an adjustment for CAP38 specific to the metagame?

In previous stages, we noted some differences between Ubers and OU/CAP. Ubers is a low PP metagame, which helps Pressure output value. The impact of Toxic/Toxic Spikes is also higher in Uber than in OU/CAP. While CAP38 can both absorb and spread them with its Poison typing, it would definitely not have a monopoly on this in its new tier, like Eternatus did originally. Factors like hazards, Knock Off, and other statuses are also more common in OU/CAP, as our Typing Leader observed. Is there still a need for the ability to help us define a niche in this new environment? This is related to the TL’s vision for this stage, specifically:

Ability

• Resilience against a relevant form of passive damage (if not addressed during Typing)

We addressed it somewhat, but is there a need for more? - is the gist of this question.

Standard disclaimer that ability submissions are NOT open; there is time for that yet. And indeed, there will be time. Let's have a good one.

 

[Koleda]

1) Which aspects of Eternatus’ usage of Pressure are important to translate, if at all?

Like many Pokemon in its home tier, Eternatus gets the “dump” ability of Pressure; however, it actually works on Eternatus. I think that’s interesting. But is it important for us to replicate this aspect of the ability (not necessarily Pressure) being relatively low-impact but still useful because of the kit? If not, which aspects of an ability would you say can make CAP38 really feel like Eternatus? In fact, is the ability even defining for the entire Pokemon, or only for specific sets?

We should strive for just generally low impact but useful. That alone is enough to replicate Eternatus. I don't know if we can replicate the actual feel of Pressure without just giving it Pressure, there's no other ability quite like it in terms of what it can do.

That being said, I think our ability can have a higher impact than Pressure on Eternatus. It just shouldn't be TOO helpful. Like, Miasmaw with Neutralizing Gas is an example of a mon where the ability completely makes it. Let's try to avoid that scenario here.

2) Does our offensive and/or defensive prowess compared to Eternatus need help through ability?

The brilliant piptochi explains the merits of the winning typing in their post. Grass is quite different compared to Dragon as an offensive type, exchanging the latter’s neutrality for a spread of useful super effective hits as well as resistances. Our 2-move and 3-move coverage profiles are undeniably affected by this change; not to mention our defensive profile. Add to that the fact that we're in a completely different tier. How do all these differences affect the functioning of mini-Eternatus? Is it necessary that we address the lacking aspects right here in the ability stage? If so, in general terms, what are the ways to go about it?

Grass/Poison is notably a worse typing than Poison/Dragon, especially offensively. Poison/Dragon only has one blind spot in Steel, whereas Grass/Poison has 2 blind spots in Steel and Poison. I think we should consider having our offensive or defensive prowess, especially offensive prowess, being helped by our ability as a result.

I'll think about the third question and may or may not answer it, it depends on how much time I have.

EDIT: Our typing already gives us a Toxic immunity, that's enough. I won't be super opposed to an ability that furthers our passive damage resistance but it is absolutely not necessary.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

1) Which aspects of Eternatus’ usage of Pressure are important to translate, if at all?

Like many Pokemon in its home tier, Eternatus gets the “dump” ability of Pressure; however, it actually works on Eternatus. I think that’s interesting. But is it important for us to replicate this aspect of the ability (not necessarily Pressure) being relatively low-impact but still useful because of the kit? If not, which aspects of an ability would you say can make CAP38 really feel like Eternatus? In fact, is the ability even defining for the entire Pokemon, or only for specific sets?

as i've already mentioned, i believe that taking a low-impact, underutilized ability and turning it into a strong part of the mon's kit is a very important feature of eternatus that we should strive to replicate. it's a crucial part of all but the most balls-out-offensive eternatus sets, including the flagship life orb 3a recover set, which i think is what we should be trying to emulate: an ability that on the face of it is primarily defensive but is notably useful even on sets with an offensive bent

one thing we shouldn't do is let the mon be entirely defined by this ability. eternatus isn't "the pressure guy", it's "the guy who makes pressure work". the difference is an important one. likewise, we shouldn't make the ability low-impact enough that it isn't really a cohesive part of the kit. i'm thinking of it like this: we pick something that on an ordinary pokemon wouldn't be mentioned on its smogon analysis at all, but on this mon it gets mentioned in the second paragraph. i do think it can be a bit higher-impact than eternatus's though, primarily since the typing isn't as flashy, so "mentioned in the first paragraph" is also fine

2) Does our offensive and/or defensive prowess compared to Eternatus need help through ability?

The brilliant piptochi explains the merits of the winning typing in their post. Grass is quite different compared to Dragon as an offensive type, exchanging the latter’s neutrality for a spread of useful super effective hits as well as resistances. Our 2-move and 3-move coverage profiles are undeniably affected by this change; not to mention our defensive profile. Add to that the fact that we're in a completely different tier. How do all these differences affect the functioning of mini-Eternatus? Is it necessary that we address the lacking aspects right here in the ability stage? If so, in general terms, what are the ways to go about it?

i don't think we particularly need help offensively in the ability department. yes, our stabs have two blind spots where eternatus only has one, but the coverage that hits said blind spots also happens to be a really good coverage type, so i think it about evens out. where i think we should be focusing is the defensive aspect. grass/poison definitely needs more help to get our guy to that eternatus level defensively. i could also see a primarily-offense route to discourage dropping a stab or give the coverage more oomph, but i think those issues are mainly the moves phase's problem

3) Does the ability need to open up an adjustment for CAP38 specific to the metagame?

In previous stages, we noted some differences between Ubers and OU/CAP. Ubers is a low PP metagame, which helps Pressure output value. The impact of Toxic/Toxic Spikes is also higher in Uber than in OU/CAP. While CAP38 can both absorb and spread them with its Poison typing, it would definitely not have a monopoly on this in its new tier, like Eternatus did originally. Factors like hazards, Knock Off, and other statuses are also more common in OU/CAP, as our Typing Leader observed. Is there still a need for the ability to help us define a niche in this new environment?

i don't think our ability's strengths necessarily need to be meta-specific, nor do we really need that much more help against passive damage in my opinion. we should go for something that's meta-relevant, yes, but we shouldn't constrain ourselves to say "it has to be something that works only in this meta". we should be looking at something that the mon makes work, not that the meta makes work

 

[Pipotchi]

1) Which aspects of Eternatus’ usage of Pressure are important to translate, if at all?
This is just based on my (admittedly pretty inexperienced) take that Eternatus' key features dont include Pressure stalling, even though I'm sure it can squeeze a little benefit out of it occasionally, its known for much more iconic traits, mainly its big BP moves and giant stats- its gameplay rarely includes playing around the ability. We should therefore try and fill this slot with an "invisible" ability.
By invisibility I mean that the ability can be hugely impactful, but it shouldn't offer otherwise unachievable gameplay or develop strategy around it being triggered. In this sense, the ability can move us closer to Eternatus' big BP moves/giant stats/perfect coverage without needing to use signature moves or uber stats. For example, if I have in one hand a Crawdaunt, and in the other a dark/water mon with Pressure, the same stats but two signature moves: BiggerCrabhammer and BiggerKnockoff (both moves 1.3x more powerful than their regular counterparts): these two mons have identical playstyle of using their STAB nukes, despite one of them having their ability being the crux of their viability and the other having a pretty meh one. I think the same can apply here: we can make the mini-Eternatus mimic aspects of the playstyle of Eternatus through the ability, maybe by boosting the quality of its STAB choices or coverage- since in my opinion Eternatus has BiggerDragonpulse in the form of Dynamax Cannon.
Stuff like Berserk, Unburden, even mid stuff like Rain Dish or Poison Point- they start to encourage detours by building around them being triggered in my opinion and are poor choices, regardless of how strong or weak they are. The ability should ideally be invisible by instead changing the base power of its own moves, stats, or type interactions in a static way.

edit: I think copying Eternatus more literally by choosing a mid ability and half-heartedly leaning into it could be a bit of a mistake because the playstyle will drift. And I think it'll be awkward during the process to attach it to the mon to mostly ignore. Feels like it will mostly just encourage mistakes down the line as an unrelated element to our actual intended playstyle.

2) Does our offensive and/or defensive prowess compared to Eternatus need help through ability?
I'd say offensive all the way- Grass Poison is already fine enough defensively, and to push it more would probably make it stand out as being a lot better than Eternatus defensively. Meanwhile we have a fair few challenges remaining offensively and I think it would be great to solve some of them with an ability. There's more reasoning to be added here but I can wait for later questions.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i'd also like to detail what exactly sort of genres of thing i think are possible to do with this mon, and whether or not i personally recommend them. so as not to poll jump, i will not be using any specific examples, so if you assume i'm talking about any one ability in particular then that's legally your own fault and the cops have nothing on me

• help with stabs. a couple people have voiced concerns that this mon might drop one stab or the other too easily. i don't think this is necessarily true, or that it's even the ability phase's problem if it is, but still. the easiest way to deal with this is to slot on an ability that bolsters both stabs, or whichever stab we consider the more droppable one, to incentivize running them both. if we consider grass more droppable, that's promising, there are a bunch of abilities that help with grass. poison not so much, but there are a couple options. somewhat recommended
• help with defensive type matchups. obviously, immunity abilities are softbanned—and even if they weren't, grass/poison is one of the worst type combinations for any existing one in this scenario; it's weak to fire (too high-impact), resistant to water and electric and grass (too low-impact), and offensively threatens ground (either too low-impact or too high-impact if we use the spikes immunity one). so we'd need some sort of other option that weakens incoming attacks from some typing or other, or possibly more than one. there are more options to do this than you'd think, though some of them are pretty roundabout. highly recommended
• resilience against permanent progress. i personally don't think we need to do this with an ability and we've covered it enough with typing, but there are plenty of options that we can do with it. we could do something involving item removal or hazards, or just make ourselves immune to a status condition, or to all status conditions, or to passive damage altogether. the issue is, most of the options for doing this are either too low-impact or extremely mon-defining, so if this is a thing we want to factor in then we better be really careful about it. not recommended
• cover "limited setup options" early. there are a couple of ways i can think of to effectively put a single-use stat boost on a mon in the ability stage, thus technically fulfilling the meteor beam analogue. this might be neat, but ultimately i think doing it as an ability would crowd out all the non-setup options of the mon. not recommended
• ability denial. i've seen people discuss this as an option and i think there's some sauce to it. i'm slightly concerned that it could end up defining the mon a little too much, but there's a very similar vibe offensively to what pressure has defensively and i kinda like that. somewhat recommended
• some other kind of low-impact defensive utility. something like contact punishing, limited healing (not regenerator), or some other way to bolster longevity or discourage incoming attacks. attack-punishing in particular is probably the closest analogue to pressure we can pull off, since they both punish opponents for clicking carelessly. i believe this is probably the most pro-concept way to take things. highly recommended

 

[traceyscetchit]

1) Which aspects of Eternatus’ usage of Pressure are important to translate, if at all?

Etern's ability is low value, but that doesn't mean ours should be too for that reason. If eternatus had another "weak" ability that it used particularly well, like limber, it wouldn't feel the same as pressure. The feeling that pressure evokes is one of stalling the opponent out until they "burn out." Something like moves that lower the targets attack, pressure itself, or god forbid, stamina would mirror this feeling, but not just any random weak ability. However, I will say that we should require abilities that are strong to be VERY well justified not because of pressure but because of power budget. A statball build seems very called for, and taking away budget for random powerful abilities seems like a bad idea.

2) Does our offensive and/or defensive prowess compared to Eternatus need help through ability?

Both are somewhat lacking. Either approach works, but if we choose an ability that helps with offenses, we should be careful to pick one that focuses on specific bad matchups instead of all matchups in general.

 

[IGotEaten]

2) Does our offensive and/or defensive prowess compared to Eternatus need help through ability?

I’m going to be honest with you: short answer is yes. Grass doesn’t even hope to stack up to Dragon, and so I think this ability needs to pick up some defensive slack. Some offensive power is possibly helpful, but I don’t feel we require (not ruling out abilities that conditionally provide this) it at this time. That is a burden for the Stats discussion. This ability should hard-stop one or two major meta Pokemon combined with Grass/Poison as Pressure does to those low PP mons that posed a threat to Eternatus. (Anyone interested in bouncing off this, is an interesting option to try and block with our ability-type combo specifically, as well as )

 

[AzothBend]

It may be personal bias but the vision for our chosen typing seems pretty clear.

1) Which aspects of Eternatus’ usage of Pressure are important to translate, if at all?

As was mentioned, CAP does not have the same low PP aspect of Ubers. And in fact, many of the 'mon we naturally check and threaten () have anything but low PP. To that end, Pressure is maybe best understood as a passive, but ultimately beneficial ability.

Someone in CAPcord brought up the idea of an "invisible ability." Pressure is perhaps an example. It won't automatically flip any matchups or win you games, but it will make slow progress into the opposing team without you needing to really think about it. We should at least consider a similar frame here.

2) Does our offensive and/or defensive prowess compared to Eternatus need help through ability?

Grass/Poison could legitimately go either way. Much has been said about how, for as strong as it may be, Grass-type STAB does not offer the same spammable nature of Dragon-STAB. It does make up for that, somewhat, where it does hit for super-effective damage. Because of that, and the fact it's much easier to bolster offensives with moves and stats, I'm leaning more a defensive-in-nature ability. But as the first point alludes too, I'm inclined to something less extreme.

3) Does the ability need to open up an adjustment for CAP38 specific to the metagame?

This was already discussed a good bit in our typing discussion. Hazards was a concern there. Grass/Poison's neutrality to hazards is probably more a boon than anything, in that it neither requires or removes Heavy-duty Boots as an option. That's good for item/set versatility.

One other strength of the type brought up was its general resistance to priority in the form of Pixilate Extreme Speed, Triage Drain Punch, Thunderclap, Grassy Glide, etc. For another type, that may have been a concern, given it's abundance in CAP. It seems a trivial concern now.

The only other specific facet of the CAP metagame that should be considered is Paralysis. Not only do we theoretically want to check one of the worst abusers in Cresceidon , we also will presumably emulate Eternatus' naturally high speed.

 

[a fairy]

1) Which aspects of Eternatus’ usage of Pressure are important to translate, if at all?

Maybe I'm racing forwards too quickly but man I'd love if this ability helped define what kinda Mini-Uber energy we've got and how this 'mon plays on the field. BC yeah, like you said, Pressure is mostly useless. But like, look at some Corviknight sets, ADV Suicune, etc etc. These are 'mons that take a meh ability and push its logical use to its limit. It doesn't have to be Pressure but I'd hate to give a generic goodstuff ability to this 'mon and consign it to "yeah I have an ability yeah it helps but it isn't helpful because I'm me, it's just helpful". I'd love to see something like, I dunno, what Shed Skin does for NFE Scraggy or how some Gastrodon use Sticky Hold to become their team's Knock switchin. Weak Armor is quite nice for Ceruledge but you wouldn't call the ability a Very Powerful one for sure.

2) Does our offensive and/or defensive prowess compared to Eternatus need help through ability?

The brilliant piptochi explains the merits of the winning typing in their post. Grass is quite different compared to Dragon as an offensive type, exchanging the latter’s neutrality for a spread of useful super effective hits as well as resistances. Our 2-move and 3-move coverage profiles are undeniably affected by this change; not to mention our defensive profile. Add to that the fact that we're in a completely different tier. How do all these differences affect the functioning of mini-Eternatus? Is it necessary that we address the lacking aspects right here in the ability stage? If so, in general terms, what are the ways to go about it?

Really do feel like we benefit from a defensive ability here. Sure, we've been over the coverage stuff, even if we haven't locked in 3-move profile it's not like we're not going to be aware of what we're doing. The duo/trio didn't win for being bad, y'know. However, we also have to be realistic, our typing doesn't exactly set us up for success, what with barely more resistances than weaknesses. Some of these are pretty common typings as coverage or STABspam, too. They aren't the most common ever but they certainly are on the radar.

I really do think that our ability should be leaning defensive here, there's a reason that there's only so many truly successful Grass/Poison typed Pokemon. Venusaur sees some success especially in older gens, NFE Ivysaur, Roserade got nerfed by DPP Sleep ban but was quite nice before, and Amoonguss is for sure the shining star of its typing, but even then it's carried by Regenerator somewhat and is still overshadowed by other Regen 'mons. The typing just isn't really all that and a bag of chips, if this 'mon's going to be a presence, it needs to not fold when hit.

3) Does the ability need to open up an adjustment for CAP38 specific to the metagame?

This is definitely my weakest answer but I'm inclined to say that we aren't there yet. We need to figure out some more, we need to make sure this 'mon doesn't rot as a meh option only really usable in some small niche buouyed by CAP overtuning. Now, of course, I recognize I am encouraging CAP overtuning, but let's make sure our Mini-Uber has a benefit noticed by its user ala TSpikes removal in Ubers. You're not putting Pecharunt on your team to absorb the random Gren TSpike setting, you're using Pech for other reasons, y'know? The TSpike absorption is a benefit that kinda is whatever. Etern however you do have a little bit of "okay now I don't get wrecked by TSpikes". Let's make sure we do something to ensure that CAP38 has something similar. I dunno.

 

[SunshineFuture]

1) Which aspects of Eternatus’ usage of Pressure are important to translate, if at all?

I’m gonna echo a combination of what DaddyBuzzwole and pip have said on this. I don’t think we can or should force ourselves into something as “low-impact” as Pressure, but I do believe there’s something to be said about our ability being less “flashy” compared to something like No Guard on Ramnarok (for example). However, this question is definitionally hard to give a concrete answer for. The best anyone can say, myself included, echoes the infamous quote from Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart on obscenity: people “know it when [they] see it”. (You’re welcome Guingil!) Because of that, while I think we should absolutely keep this in mind, I don’t think we should make this an absolute priority. Odds are, if we stick to an ability that wouldn’t derail or warp the rest of the process (a general metric that CAP often uses in the ability stage), we’ll hit the mark on this one imo.

2) Does our offensive and/or defensive prowess compared to Eternatus need help through ability?

3) Does the ability need to open up an adjustment for CAP38 specific to the metagame?

I’m combining these two because of how I feel regarding defensive abilities. I think that Grass/Poison has a stronger defensive profile than an offensive one. We have fairly good type matchups across the board, and while we have weaknesses, I don’t particularly think any are so crippling to where we need to explicitly patch it up. But I could see us getting an ability with metagame-specific defensive utility. Addressing specific statuses or other effects, for example, is a way where a less offensive ability can still fit for what we need. Overall, though, our offense is probably what needs a bit more help.

 

[Explosion Badger]

1) Which aspects of Eternatus’ usage of Pressure are important to translate, if at all?

Everyone has been talking about the importance of translating the "subtlety" of Pressure's impact, and I somewhat agree: Pressure isn't exactly the main tool in Eternatus' kit. Rather than focusing itself around the ability, the ability compliments Eternatus' natural longevity, allowing it to take advantage of its ability to continually stay in the battle in more ways than one.

However, I think an important thing to note with Pressure in particular is How it interacts with the Uber Tier. Many of the Pokémon that inhabit Ubers have extremely strong, spammable signature moves that are balanced by having extremely low PP. Moves like Glacial Lance, Behemoth Blade, Collision Course/Close Combat, and even Dynamax Cannon itself max out at 8PP. When Pressure gets involved, particularly on a mon with longevity like Eternatus, it becomes even more risky to throw out these moves than normal. Of course, this doesn't mean that Pressure is an irreplaceable tool, but it does increase its usefulness in Ubers compared to its usefulness in OU, where larger Power Point totals means that the ability has far less application. All this to say, while I don't think the ability should be high impact, it should be an ability that's strengthened by the unique features of our tier, rather than just being a passively "decent" ability.

2) Does our offensive and/or defensive prowess compared to Eternatus need help through ability?

I would definitely argue that our offensive strength, for all of its merits, might need a bit of help. Grass and Poison are both typings with quite a few resistances, and while both types cover up for a few of each others weaknesses, their both unable to hit Poison or Steel types is a huge blow, especially considering there are other relatively important dual types outside of those that they fail to hit effectively(Ghost/Dragon, for example).

 

[viol and bass]

Which aspects of Eternatus’ usage of Pressure are important to translate, if at all?

I'm fine with the "invisible ability" formulation (let's call it something else though; that sounds to me like an ability that doesn't self-reveal, which is a completely different set of abilities lol) or the "uniquely beneficial effect for our tier" formulation if we want to go one of those routes. I think however that it's more important to emulate the mon as a whole rather than its parts individually, and to me Pressure isn't super necessary to emulate directly. The ability can be used to align us better with Eternatus in other ways even if it has no resemblance to Pressure, for example by bringing our offensive or defensive profile more in line with Eternatus, etc.

Does our offensive and/or defensive prowess compared to Eternatus need help through ability?

Our offensive prowess is more lacking than our defensive prowess currently. We're vaguely in the ballpark of Eternatus defensively, but we are currently not as threatening offensively (even though Grass has better super effective coverage), mainly due to the lack of a spammable STAB. We're currently significantly more reliant on our coverage move than Eternatus, since a pretty significant swath of the metagame is resisting our STABs (Pult, Kit/Ghold, Ceruledge, Mollux, Pecharunt, Glowking, Moth, Chuggalong, Corv, Heatran/Ram, and more. This isn't a full list). In my opinion, this is the area we need help with. It could theoretically be tackled with raw stats, but you'd need a lot of stats for the mon to feel as immediately threatening. I think additional juice of some kind would be helpful.

Does the ability need to open up an adjustment for CAP38 specific to the metagame?

The main thing that comes to mind is that if we're going to be focused on inflicting poison in some fashion, we might need some significant help with that. So many of the answers to our offensive sets will also be immune to poison, and it's very easy to switch into both offensive and fat sets with the same poison-immune mons currently, maybe even assuming reasonable coverage. If fat sets want to inflict poison, finding some way for such sets to exert pressure on poison-immune mons may be important here.

 

[quziel]

I'll be real I hate it when we build a box for ourselves, and then sit in it. We've done this a ton of times before, and it ends badly most times. Realistically we want the overall vibe of the mon to match Etern, and while yeah, that probably indicates a mild preference towards "weaker" "less flashy" abilities, a mild preference is all we have. Its possible that Tinted Lens could be our best route to making Energy Ball feel like Dynamax Cannon, and that's fine.

Beyond that I'm of the opinion that Grass/Poison really isn't that bad? Like yeah, its obviously walled by most of our Poison and Steel types, but equally when you look at the current CAP meta you can sorta bypass a lot of them with even mild Knock support, or hit them neutrally anyways. Slowking-Galar has been making Poison/Psychic work for it super well all this gen, albeit in the context of having Chilly, and idk Equilibra being "the" steel of the meta is our biggest benefit here.

Similarly, being a well-statted Poison/Grass is gonna get our defensive sets into the meta just by itself. Give us some way of inflicting "permanent" progress and we're fine. Shit, Vileplume was D-ranked in OU during late 2024, and being "better, faster, bulkier" Vileplume is pretty reasonable for us, even if we're unlikely to get a certain Sap.

 

[Gekokeso]

1) Which aspects of Eternatus’ usage of Pressure are important to translate, if at all?

3) Does the ability need to open up an adjustment for CAP38 specific to the metagame?

Gonna lump these together because I think neither of these are important enough aspects of Eternatus to emulate.

Would it be fun if 38's ability was able to do this? Sure, but I think that happens to be the wrong approach to deciding its ability. Necrozma's pressure does not really boost what makes it so unique in ubers that much outside of making some legendaries not able to spam their sigs that often, and given multiple mons still have other multiple stabs I think its not something specifically unique to ubers. Especially since other historic users of the ability, like Dialga and Lugia in past iterations of ubers, have not had the ability as a big selling point for their usage but rather just a decent boon for certain matchups.

2) Does our offensive and/or defensive prowess compared to Eternatus need help through ability?

This, I think, should be the question that everybody should be focusing on, cause we need to figure this out NOW, else the ability poll is going to look very bizarre with too many options with conflicting interests.

Something that I think we have to remember is that we cannot actually afford to become Eternatus: it's on the concept, we are mini-eternatus, not etern. And what that means is that in order to be able to translate the mon to OU we will be working with a significantly smaller power budget if we want it to be something balanced. That means making some sacrifices in either of abilities/stats/movepool to ensure we are able to make something of similar caliber without overbloating the thing.

Going for one that raises our offensive profile a fair bit may lead to a decrease in potential movepool options or stats, but that might as well be a good thing. If we are able to hit as hard as eternatus then I think we can afford to make either our stats slightly less offensive or to reduce our movepool a bit, which fits the way in which Necrozma is able to make use of a slightly weaker offensive movepool.

Going for one that raises our defensive profile might feel a bit redundant, given that I think grass poison is a fairly serviceable defensive typing for the current meta but I can see the angle. Giving this a defensive ability lowers the need for bulk bloat on later parts of the concept while going full hog on offensive prowess and some key moves.

Going for neither of them and instead opting for something of very little impact like Etern's pressure means the later stages got to catch up a fair bit, which is an alright route to take but that will certainly either lead to a stat stick or something with a better movepool than the mon we are emulating.

For me, I say go for an offensive ability at this point of the stage. Grass/Poison is a very respectable offensive typing that could make some good use of an offensive ability to both be able to explore alternate ways to raise our bulk as well as giving us the desired power level for us to be able to limit our movepool and not feel like we are underpowering the mon.

 

[Spammernoob]

1) Which aspects of Eternatus’ usage of Pressure are important to translate, if at all?

Eternatus makes some use of Pressure, but It seems like more of a bonus than a selling point of the Pokemon. I think I agree with the sentiment expressed by others that we should try to replicate this aspect; CAP38 shouldn't be slotted on a team because of access to a high-impact ability. I also agree that we shouldn't limit ourselves to low-impact abilities just to replicate Pressure.

One interesting dynamic is that Pressure disproportionately benefits Eternatus' defensive sets (and Cosmic Power !!!) compared to its offensive ones. I'm not sure if this is a dynamic we want to think about here.

2) Does our offensive and/or defensive prowess compared to Eternatus need help through ability?

One difficulty with Grass / Poison is that it struggles into both Steel and Poison types. Steel in particular is difficult to deal with, as two of its weaknesses (Ground, Fighting) can be nullified by a secondary type, and such Pokemon are quite common in CAP (Kitsunoh, Gholdengo, Corviknight). I mentioned during typing that having both STABs resisted and coverage only being neutral is quite terrible., and we are guaranteed such matchups, unlike Eternatus. Thus, I think it makes sense to try to shore up offenses with ability.

On the other hand, Grass/Poison is a tried and true defensive typing. 4 weaknesses and 5 resists is slightly worse than Eternatus' 4 weaknesses and 7 resists, but I think the Grass/Poison resistances (Fairy) are a bit more relevant than Dragon/Poison's (Fire, Bug, Poison). We also have an inherent Toxic immunity, so we don't really need to patch our defensive profile.

3) Does the ability need to open up an adjustment for CAP38 specific to the metagame?

What I worry most about CAP38 is momentum. Ubers is a lot more static than CAP; compare, for example, the Regenerator Pokemon that we have to deal with; Ho-oh is powerful, but lacks the momentum tools of Pokemon like Tornadus-T, Slowking-G, and Alomomola. Based on our CA discussion, CAP38 will have limited access to setup, and no access to pivoting; this makes it inherently hard to punish pivot Pokemon (and also Pokemon like Gliscor / Snaelstrom). We have a case study in Jumbao, which is a well-statted Pokemon with a similar archetype (3A + Recover, no setup) and STAB profile; it is languishing in C-tier viability because it doesn't do enough and gets taken advantage of for momentum. This is a scenario I'd like to avoid.

I don't know if ability is the ideal place to address this issue, but I think it really should be a major focus for the rest of the stages (especially ability and movepool; I don't think stats can solve this). I feel like this is the major problem remaining with this CAP, and the most difficult (remaining) part of translating a Pokemon like Eternatus into CAP.

 

[Amamama]

Im a bit surprised seeing so many responses talking about the defensive typing not being good enough.
Yes it’s not water fairy but neither is poison dragon.
Eternatus has three good and very important resists plus some minor ones and several really bad weaknesses.
We pretty much mirror that. Honestly except ghost and ground we have a resist package that covers probably the three most important types in fighting, fairy and water. Adding Electric and Grass as well makes for a pretty good defensive profile, imo probably somewhat stronger than Eternatus. Ground neutrality is a bit sad for a grass type but that’s where the big stats come in. Etern does a lot of work by being naturally bulky not only through its resists and we can do that too.
Onnthe other hand offensively we never cover everything neutrally just with stabs and 1 coverage. This is where the typing is actually weak and needs to pick up slack. I can see arguments for a utility focused ability that improves good matchups we already have, especially looking at status spread from cresc, shox or clef.

 

[Guingil]

Since discussion seems to be slowing down a bit, I figure this is a good time for me to jump back in and give an idea of where we are at. Thank for your thought-provoking answers, I was really challenged to question my own assumptions by them. Ability subs are still not open, as I want a little more direction before we get there.

Q1: There seems to be some level of agreement that to feel like Eternatus, the ability should not be too defining. However, the specifics as to the extent and how it might be achieved differ. Some have advocated for low-impact abilities, saying the rest of CAP38's kit should lift up the ability, rather than the other way round. Koleda and DaddyBuzzwole (and by extension, the quoted shock3600, LMAO) advocate this viewpoint. The formulation that we should be the "Pokemon that makes X work", instead of "the X Pokemon" is a useful sense check. a fairy takes this even further with their idea of some Pokemon pushing "logical use [of a meh ability] to its limit".

Piptochi, on the other hand, points us towards the aspect of "invisibility" of an ability. This is not so much looking at impact as it is at a static or unchanging nature in interactions for CAP38. Within this, I am particularly interested in modifying key interactions statically as a way to help out CAP 38, which stats later on can only do in limited ways. traceyscetchit talks about how the ability can be used to "burn out" foes, while AzothBend emphasizes the passive nature of it as a point to perhaps emulate.

SunshineFuture, viol and bass, and Explosion Badger provide some contextualization for the ability's functioning. sunshine argues that the low-impact should not be an absolute priority, viol says that ultimately it is not the one ability that we are emulating but the entire Pokemon—and the ability is just one cog in that (pictured below). And Explosion Badger situates the power of Pressure in the specific metagame it was based in, and asks us to look at equivalents for OU/CAP. Our very own TL echoes this sentiment but through a specific example of a beloved Pokemon hampered by its lack of certain traits.

And finally, we have voices of caution in quziel and Gekokeso, who warn of the dangers of over indexing on the non-essentiality of the ability. piptochi does this as well, pointing about the absurdity of attaching something just to ignore it. Sure, a box, as quziel puts it, might be useful to gain solid footing; but if there are no windows of flexibility in our interpretation here, we will only see the walls of the box and nothing else.

Nevertheless, our assumed mix of a good measure of Speed, bulk, and attacking prowess from concept assessment provides us a unique opportunity to explore some abilities to feel like an Eternatus. Therefore, higher impact/overly visible ones will require a lot of justification and support to get on the slate, but I'm not automatically ruling them out either.

Q2/Q3: So we broadly agree that we need some sort of boost. More people for offensive, some for defensive. I think I'm going to include a category of utility help as well, from some answers.

We have a general idea of the shortcomings of our typing. So next, I would request you to choose the kind of help, between offensive, defensive, or utility, that you think CAP38 needs from its ability, and make a post explaining which meta-specific roadblocks make this help necessary. You can do more than one. I would look at spammernoob's example above, the tier is full of bulky pivots, or viol and bass's list of targets that resist our STAB moves. Or is it all the Toxic resistant/immune Pokemon in the tier? Is it opposing paralysis/burn spreaders? Or just the lack of pivoting?

I know this is difficult to do without polljumping, given we don't know our coverage type, physical or special bias, the utility moves, or even the stats we will get. So I just want a rough idea, assuming only universally assumed moves and a general idea of our build. While these will be hashed out in their respective stages, we cannot deny the impact our decided ability will have there. So better to map it out a little bit with regard to interactions.

 

[Koleda]

Already kinda said this in a previous post but between offensive, defensive or utility, CAP 38 would appreciate offensive help from its ability the most.

Now, I'll admit, if you look at the VR, there are no mons A+ or above that actually resist both Grass and Poison (even if you were to put Obliteryx there, which the mon probably deserves). But the thing is, enough do. You dip into A and you got a bunch of mons that resist Grass/Poison. Dragapult, Gholdengo, Mollux, Pecharunt, Slowking-Galar. That is 5 mons in A rank alone. Then you go into A- where there are 3 more (Iron Moth, Kingambit, Kitsunoh). 8 mons in the A ranks resist Grass/Poison, that's nothing to sneeze at.

Of course we can alleviate this with coverage. But the point I'm trying to make is that even with coverage, CAP 38 would really appreciate some offensive help from its ability. Too much stands in its way.

I know that a lot of my arguments sound like they belong in threats discussion when that happens, but I'm not sure how else to get my points across. The way I see it, this is all relevant to what ability we get.

And also I know the VR is outdated, but I feel like my points still stand. Even if some of the mons I mentioned don't deserve to be in the A ranks anymore, they are still relevant enough to consider.

 

[Amamama]

I would request you to choose the kind of help, between offensive, defensive, or utility, that you think CAP38 most needs and make a post explaining which meta-specific roadblocks make this help necessary.

i believe, key problem to solve (for the rest of the process) is specifically offensive coverage for the more passive or utility focused sets.

We don’t really need an ability to bolster our defenses. The typing already has good resists and positions us well to play bulky sets that can check multiple key threats in the tier.
There’s maybe room for abilities that help us deal with the mons we already check better. Eg status immunities so we can avoid burns/twave from Cresc.

The potential 3A coverage is also workable. It’s not as neutrally powerful as Eternatus but there are several coverage types that should enable 3 attacks sets, especially if the defensive profile is valuable enough, where 38 wants to run recovery most of the time. I say this bc the 3A coverage with both StABs is weak enough that a 4A set could become optimal if the offensive power is too high, just bc an offensive set might want that 4th move over recovery most of the time to hit everything (something to consider for power boosting abilities)

Now the Achilles heel are the Utility sets which at the moment suffer from the STAB combo being very awkward and any sort of 2 move coverage that includes one of the stabs likely being relatively easy to answer defensively, something Eternatus has no issues with, which allows it to easily make progress even with more utility focused sets.

We could solve that by adding more coverage types but

1) that strays from the original in a way we might not want
2) requires more offensive juice so a utility set without STABs could still provide enough pressure

We could solve that by adding an off type STAB bonus through ability but again I don’t know if that isn’t too far off the original.

Alternatively we could superpower one or both of the stabs to make coverage more simple since you cover a lot with just one move. This seems a bit more in line with what Eternatus does.

Lastly we could work with an ability that bridges the gap in coverage by circumventing the resistances or immunities of some of the mons that can currently check us, to reduce the amount of mons we need to cover with the 2 attacks set. (Moldbreaker, Corrosion etc.)

 

[Feldirion]

I can't say I'm that qualified to comment on Abilities- so I'm coming at this from the 'does it feel like ?' angle. So far, I agree with the offensive-leaning bias that has been presented so far. To prevent paraphrasing everyone else, standard Eternatus has at least one spammable STAB- Dragon- and we don't. Grass-Poison gives us our resistances, Toxic immunity and Stealth Rock resistance (EDIT: We do not have a Stealth Rock Resistance. My brain is working funny today. Thanks to Ixkulkul for correcting me) on the defensive side, which seems more then equivilent to Eternatus's bulk.

Offence is where we might need some help. CAP is, put simply, filled with 'mons that can check us. From walls like :snaelstrom or that can heal off damage and no-sell Toxic to bulky pivots that can shake off any damage we do- heck, even a mon we counter on typing alone, can paralyze us before we get the KO. Our STABs are workable, but we may be creating a pitfall where Mininatus is too reliant on it's coverage, thus dealing a blow to 2a sets.

CAP 38 has the defensive profile of it's inspiration- what it needs is more utility, or more power. A 'subtle' ability is a nice, Eternatus-leaning touch: something that you don't have to micromanage, something that just works. But it won't really narrow much down, so if that's the direction we want to go then it should be used to narrow down our selection, not influence it.

Therefore, if we are sticking to our 3a blueprint, then I think our ability should be geared towards boosting our STABs in reliability or power, preferably the former. If we can't do that, then shoring up some our matchups- especially into status- with something like Shed Skin or Natural Cure is the only viable defensive route I can see. And just using those two examples I would lean more towards Shed Skin- because it is 'passive,' and thus more like Eternatus's playstyle, then consciously activated abilities like Natural Cure.

Summary: I think we're right to look at offense, and the 'passive ability' angle is a nice, though not vital, way to narrow it down. If we don't go offense, then countering status should be our natural fallback.

 

[Ixkukul]

Grass-Poison gives us our resistances, Toxic immunity and Stealth Rock resistance on the defensive side

no we don't have a Stealth Rock resistance

 

[IGotEaten]

Well, I’d like to question if the status immunity we have is Eternatus enough. CAP is infested with Toxic and SR resists, making it a less unique hard wall. Paralysis or burn immunity in the ability may be more uniquely useful (mostly para bc fire and beak blast kill us anyway especially with who I feel our type points to us checking). Offensively, I think we’re fine as long as we don’t screw up on the stats end, and utility should be covered by movepool considering our Grass-typing. So, I side with further status defense as the best angle for our ability. That’s about all I have to say, but I do have some abilities in mind for when subs open, so I will return.

 

[AzothBend]

I would request you to choose the kind of help, between offensive, defensive, or utility, that you think CAP38 needs from its ability, and make a post explaining which meta-specific roadblocks make this help necessary.

As was previously stated, an argument could be made in either direction. There's broad agreement that the ability should not define CAP38. That implies, regardless of which direction it lands, it won't push it too far in any extreme.

Quz made great points in CAPcord around other Grass/Poison-types that may serve as a model, namely Venusaurand Roserade. The model for success exists. It's illustrative, then, to see how CAP38 compares to them and to Eternatus. Quz said he'll be making a more in-depth post about it so leave anything further on Venusaur and Roserade to him.

Here, instead, consider the Eternatus. Assume that CAP38 will have 'generally good' stats. CAP38 and Eternatus are both Poison-type and will have access to Sludge Bomb. They each will have access to a 130 BP STAB move that drops SpA harshly (Draco Meteor and Leaf Storm). The only real discrepancy in STAB moves is then comparing Dynamax Cannon to, say, Energy Ball: a 10 BP difference. Coverage for Eternatus, likewise, is either a 90 BP or 110 BP move; that isn't unrealistic for CAP38, even if the exact type is undecided at the moment.

The disparity in offensive output is not so large that it becomes unreachable with stats alone. Yes, Energy Ball has more resists in CAP than Dynamax Cannon has in Ubers. That perhaps is more a consequence of a larger viability pool in CAP compared to Ubers. It also ignores that Energy Ball has more super-effective hits. An offensive ability is possible, but, in practice, it just means more constrained stats. And too strong of an offensive ability risks jeopardizing our set diversity goal, as the benefits directly scale with stat investment and item selection (i.e Life Orb)

What cannot be replicated in stats is utility. That should be the foremost priority in this stage. But it's best to lean into what CAP38 is already doing, rather than using ability to set the pace. We can look at likely targets for CAP38. How can we capitalize on the weak points in these matchups?

TLDR: Don't overcomplicate this stage

 

[Pipotchi]

Ok heres how I would break it down

This mon is not too keen on having lots of HARD counters. Eternatus doesnt really have that, and like I mentioned before 3A sets seem like a luxury that don't carry much justification for use in OU/CAP- the less hard counters this has, the better it will feel to justify this set.

Grass/Poison/Fire has as poison-immune hard counters:
It also realistically has issues with walls that wall both poison and grass and are fire-neutral, since tanky mons can easily eat a non-stab Fire Blast:

Grass/Poison/Ground has as poison-immune hard counters:
And I think Libra deserves a mention here just for its omnipresence and difficulty to break as a special wall with neutral grass stab

Of secondary importance:
We have a small issue that some of the mons we target carry paralysis:
I don't believe we have a huge burn issue but if we were physical, sure this could be dampening:

I agree with Spammer a lot than this mon is a prime candidate for being taken advantage of by walls and pivots. Like he mentioned Jumbao is something that has better than average all-round stats but really comes up short a lot because it gets eaten by stuff like Glowking all the time. This mon is definitely like Jumbao. Yes, the coverage is decent and we've seen it on Venusaur, but Venu also has multiple things going for it that we don't have access to within the goalposts we have assigned ourselves. It has pseudo-STAB fire coverage, removing things like Pech/Venom as solid answers. It has boosting and outspeeds the whole tier in sun, making it a valuable teamslot that can sweep and/or wallbreak. Plus, it feels like we've agreed that we won't delve deeply into utility moves when the time comes. Not gunna doompost about the typing and coverage, just trying to be realistic here.

So what I really want from this is something pro-active (not necessarily tied to offensive dmg output or defensive playstyle!) that helps this not get taken advantage of. That can either be a grass/poison/fire route that helps with especially mollux and glowking (imo the secret main villain of this concept), or something encourages grass/poison/ground a bit more, since that route is not so afraid of what I have been told is the more popular counter mons right now. If there's some ability that helps grass/poison/ground with corvi, then honestly we should be all ears to this as it'd be very helpful.
If there is an ability that allows different coverage over fire/ground that circumvents these key hard counters I think its a respectable option also- for instance something that abuses Glowking's Dark or Ghost weakness somehow? Don't know if that really exists, but its worth considering.
The help with status is cool, but I don't think we have anything that offers this and also helps in our other problem area. This seems like a great area to focus on for secondary ability if there is one.