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Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
This next stage is Stat Limits, and it's very important! Our Stats Leader, who will be leading this stage, is Gekokeso , so make sure that your posts are generally directed towards him and the questions he asks. Gekokeso will be deciding the stat limits for CAP 38 at the conclusion of this thread, based on community input. This is NOT the place where we actually submit stats. That will come later.
These limits will help to define what we consider when making and talking about stat spreads for CAP 38. We will look at limits to CAP 38's physical and special attacking prowess, its physical and special tanking capabilities, and the overall power of its stats.
This is a relatively tricky stage of the process if you're not familiar with what it is we're doing and why we're doing it. For that reason, we strongly encourage those who intend to participate to read the entire OP thoroughly and ask questions where needed.
Please do not poll jump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities.
Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. The Stats Leader will decide the stat limits for the CAP upon the conclusion of this thread.
Stat Bias Limits
Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be constrained by Stat Bias Limits. There will be four stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:
Physical Tankiness (PT)
The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.
Physical Sweepiness (PS)
The rating of the Pokémon's physical offense.
Special Tankiness (ST)
The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.
Special Sweepiness (SS)
The rating of the Pokémon's special offense
A spreadsheet for calculating the ratings can be found HERE. To use it for yourself, create an editable copy with File > Make a copy. If you don't have a spreadsheet program, OpenOffice and Google Sheets are free.
If you're a newer member of CAP, we highly recommend that you do some good lurking during this stage in the process. Read this page thoroughly to understand what exactly we're doing here. If you're still confused, check out some of the old Stat Limits Discussion threads for past CAPs in the CAP Process Archive. If you're still uncomfortable with posting here, then we suggest you watch how experienced users post; you can learn a lot from them!
Beep Boop, this is Geko-LRP, your Water Obliterating AI Stats Leader Assistant and the guide for the next section of the process, the stat stages. We shall first establish our Stat Limits, which will help guide the types of spreads that people will be able to submit in the next stage. If you are new to the project then we strongly advise you to start lurking during this next part of the process. We recommend to check out the OP for more information and resources as to how stat limits work in case you might feel confused. With that out of the way, lets get's started!
1: One of Eternatus' biggest selling points in Ubers is its high speed when compaired to most of the metagame. Are there any reasons as to consider slower spreads for the next stage? Regardless, what's the range for speed tiers that we should consider for our own speed stat?
Feel like we should start by rapidly addressing the big elephant in the room. This is arguably the most important characteristic of Etern, as its what defined its placement of ubers as a reliable fast wall. However you can argue that as long as we are just fast enough to beat a key threat or two, our bulk becomes a bigger priority. I'd like to hear out that side briefly (And I mean briefly because the general consensus seemed to be that we wanted to be very fast, so if that is something you are looking to argue, do it NOW.)
2: It goes without saying that we have determined that bulk is another very important characteristic of Eternatus to try and emulate. Based on our perceived good matchups from Threats Discussion, what are some calcs that we are looking to be able to hit with our bulk? Which side should be given special priority when it comes to our bulk?
A big part of Etern's viability is being able to come in and sponge hits from a variety of different pokémon. In this stage we should look at the good matchups we have decided upon on threats discussion and proceed to weed out some of the general bulk benchmarks that we should be looking to achieve for 38 to be able to come in to multiple threats.
3: We decided on the previous stage that we will be deciding on a special attacker, with our list of prefered moves being the following:
Based on these moves, what are some of the more key offensive benchmarks we are looking to hit?
Particularly, we need to nail down the important calcs from our required moves first to get an idea of the amount of Special Attack needed to make our STABs usable, but calcs on the coverage won't hurt us either.
4: Our winning ability Flower Veil has a rather high power level, how much should this ability be taken into account when balancing the stats for this pokémon?
Another thing to consider is Flower Veil's power level. Some people consider the ability to be very low in power, but I do think its important to note: We are a mon that's completely immune to status (except when tera'd), that opens some interesting posibilities regarding our bulk and how far we are allowed to go if we are immune to some of the biggest sources of passive damage in the metagame.
I plan to allow discussion to run for 48 Hours before moving on to my next set of questions.
1: One of Eternatus' biggest selling points in Ubers is its high speed when compared to most of the metagame. Are there any reasons as to consider slower spreads for the next stage? Regardless, what's the range for speed tiers that we should consider for our own speed stat?
Feel like we should start by rapidly addressing the big elephant in the room. This is arguably the most important characteristic of Etern, as its what defined its placement of ubers as a reliable fast wall. However you can argue that as long as we are just fast enough to beat a key threat or two, our bulk becomes a bigger priority. I'd like to hear out that side briefly (And I mean briefly because the general consensus seemed to be that we wanted to be very fast, so if that is something you are looking to argue, do it NOW.)
I think any less than 111 (faster than Ogerpon) is trolling. This is the absolute floor.
Defensive Etern can outspeed a lot even without max invest or +Spe Nature. If we care about the Kyurem to Chromera ranges, this is 115 minimum.
I don't think we should outspeed Zamazenta (138) or Dragapult (142) so the range would be 115 - 137. I'm not sure what the matchup into Stratagem should look like; maybe outspeeding it is fine, but underspeeding is ok too.
4: Our winning ability Flower Veil has a rather high power level, how much should this ability be taken into account when balancing the stats for this Pokémon?
Another thing to consider is Flower Veil's power level. Some people consider the ability to be very low in power, but I do think its important to note: We are a mon that's completely immune to status (except when tera'd), that opens some interesting possibilities regarding our bulk and how far we are allowed to go if we are immune to some of the biggest sources of passive damage in the metagame.
I don't think we should care about it at all. Realistically, Flower Veil is glorified Limber since we don't benefit much from Burn immunity. Toxic immunity is part of our typing's defensive profile, and I don't think we should be paying for it in stats when we already paid for it in awkward offensive profile.
This isn't a case like Clefable where our ability greatly improves our longevity. We eat both Stealth Rock and Spikes (the actual biggest sources of passive damage in the metagame), and from discussions, will likely not be HDB on offensive sets, so our bulk will inherently be compromised (if you've used MVenu, you know). At the end of the day, Flower Veil only affects a few calcs like Astro's Fire Lash, so I don't see why we should be concerned about it here.
This is a low-effort slop post so I'll let other people think through 2 and 3. I think the goal should be to force EV investment to hit certain relevant benchmarks, but I don't feel like thinking about what benchmarks to care about right now.
1: One of Eternatus' biggest selling points in Ubers is its high speed when compaired to most of the metagame. Are there any reasons as to consider slower spreads for the next stage? Regardless, what's the range for speed tiers that we should consider for our own speed stat?
Whether slower spreads should be considered is honestly dependent on what folks consider slow. On discord the discussion has mostly centred on a Speed tier between Ogerpon and Zamazenta which I think is fair. While 111 would still be 'fast' there is a world of difference between the top and bottom end of that range. Personally I'd cap (pun unintended) the top end at 135 so that CAP 38 has to use a Timid nature to outspeed the 110s (136 hits 350 w/ max invest). In Ubers Eternatus's Speed tier lets it outrun the base 90s with minimal / no investment, but heavily encourages a Timid nature to outspeed the Ogerpon equivalent (Yveltal, Lunala). It is the same story on the offensive end of the spectrum as a Modest nature will miss out on the congested 120 Speed tier, Marshadow, and Ultra Necrozma.
Maybe it was intentional, but Eternatus's Speed tier ends up heavily disincentivizing bulk or power boosting natures, subtly making that stellar stat distribution not quite as crazy as it would appear on paper or in the damage calc. It doesn't wholly invalidate a bulk or power boosting nature, but does impose a cost - something I quite like and think CAP 38 should emulate. Accordingly, I'd propose a range of 111-131 Speed with a penatly for exceeding 129 if necessary. There are a lot of Pokémon in this range and CAP 38 will likely end up outspeeding something specific.
2: It goes without saying that we have determined that bulk is another very important characteristic of Eternatus to try and emulate. Based on our perceived good matchups from Threats Discussion, what are some calcs that we are looking to be able to hit with our bulk? Which side should be given special priority when it comes to our bulk?
I like approaching this initially from the angle of what should attacks should an uninvested CAP 38 survive? Offensive Eternatus is bulky for an offensive Pokémon as opposed to properly bulky and that is an important distinction. Its natural bulk lets it survive some middling super effective attacks such as Arceus-Ground's uninvested Judgment, but not an uninvested Precipice Blades. If CAP 38 ends up being too fat I think will likely be due to offensive sets surviving a few too many super effective attacks rather than defensive sets being unbreakable.
On that note, what are the equivalent OU level attacks? Additionally, should offensive sets be surviving these attacks from full or after Stealth Rock? Examples that come to mind are uninvested Bleakwind Storm, unboosted Firey Dance, invested Freeze-Dry, and pre transformation Polar Flare, on the special side. Surviving Rapid Spin + Healong Rush on the physical side was also mentioned on discord and I'm sure there are a couple of other relevant Pokémon / moves as on that side as well. CAP 38 surviving - albeit barely, some super effective attacks such as the ones listed can help differentiate Meteor Beam and Life Orb sets as the latter will find themselves unable to survive very quickly and mirrors Eternatus's relationship with Pokémon such as Marshadow and Zacian-C.
Lastly, when it comes to bulk I pretty firmly believe that a balanced approach is the best way forward. CAP 38 doesn't need to mimic Eternatus having the same bulk on both sides of the spectrum, but it should be reasonably close. As in...maybe adjust a couple points in one direction if it is important for a specific calc. The threats discussion thread pretty firmly established that CAP 38 will have threats on both side of spectrum and providing teambuilders the flexbility to address them as they see fit mirrors Eternatus pretty well. This forces CAP 38 to chose between speed and bulk in a fair way. If somebody opts to make CAP 38 as fat as reasonably possible on both sides then matchups that are reliant on Speed are flipped and that is a fair cost. Keeping Defence and Special Defence fairly even provides agency to teambuilders without letting CAP 38 do too much at once.
3: We decided on the previous stage that we will be deciding on a special attacker, with our list of prefered moves being the following:
Based on these moves, what are some of the more key offensive benchmarks we are looking to hit?
Particularly, we need to nail down the important calcs from our required moves first to get an idea of the amount of Special Attack needed to make our STABs usable, but calcs on the coverage won't hurt us either.
125 is around what I've been looking at and have been looking at calcs somewhere around that range since the typing was decided. This seems to be around the range that sets differentiate themselves in a way that I like. Going through the VR...
0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 105-124 (27 - 31.9%) -- 42.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Steel Zamazenta: 140-166 (36 - 42.7%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 165-196 (42.5 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Steel Zamazenta: 221-263 (56.9 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 190-225 (48.9 - 57.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Steel Zamazenta: 254-300 (65.4 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 165-196 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Tera Ground Venusaur Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Steel Zamazenta: 380-450 (116.9 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yes the matchup is heavily tilted in CAP 38's favour, but I like how a healthy Zama can still phase a boosted CAP 38. Sure it may not win long term, but it isn't supposed to. At this point CAP 38 has lost its ability to boost and is likely relegated to sac fodder or just cleaning instead of sweeping. Zama has done its job in this matchup while Sludge Bomb + Earth Power wins long term.
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Meteor Beam vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Obliteryx: 356-420 (87.4 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Obliteryx: 135-159 (33.1 - 39%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Obliteryx: 201-237 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Tera Fire Obliteryx: 268-316 (65.8 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Tera Ground Venusaur Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Tera Fire Obliteryx: 402-474 (98.7 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Obliteryx: 175-207 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Tera Fire Obliteryx: 234-276 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Obliteryx: 109-130 (26.7 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Tera Fire Obliteryx: 146-174 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This is an interesting matchup since yeah..CAP 38 will be blown up by Beak Blast. Apparently the spread in the calc isn't the most commonly used one, but I'm not sure how much that changes things. The one concern that I do have is that while Obliteryx can definitely EV to survive Meteor Beam, the spread clearly has specific benchmarks and allocating the EVs to always survive Meteor Beam might be more than it can afford. This seems like a matchup that CAP 38 is favoured in if it wants to tera, but that comes at a bigger cost than most. Defensive sets will likely be able to avoid a 2HKO from Beak Blast and Sludge Bomb will very likely poison over a protracted battle which helps a bit. It isn't a good matchup, but it also isn't unsalvagable and giving Obliteryx a boost it can't use is probably appreciated by teammates.
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 165-195 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Tera Normal Gliscor: 165-195 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 127-150 (36 - 42.6%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 190-225 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Meteor Beam vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 169-199 (48 - 56.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Choice Specs Venusaur Leaf Storm vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 273-322 (77.5 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
I didn't bother including defensive calcs because it is just setup fodder for SD Gliscor which is good as it is the type of Pokémon SD Gliscor is supposed to demolish. When both Pokémon are using offensive sets the matchup feels very game state dependent. Gliscor can't safely setup on CAP 38, but CAP 38 isn't 2HKOing and will likely be OHKOed itself by +2 Tera Normal Facade regardless of what bulk we end up giving it. Life Orb would lose the 1v1 and leave Gliscor low, but if there is any Pokémon that can get back healthy it is that damn scorpion. Additionally, I don't think Life Orb CAP 38 is particularly interested in trying to break utility Gliscor due to Knock Off. Sure CAP 38 will win, but it likely won't be worth it if there are other Pokémon the team relies on it to break. Meteor Beam sets are interesting due to some cointosses against Protect, but it still does get the boost and isn't wearing itself down.
252 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 318-374 (96 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 174-206 (52.5 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 260-308 (78.5 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Defensive sets do enough to be a threat and it isn't inconceivable that max phys def and some HP could survive an unboosted Flare Blitz. The Hemo matchup is one of the draws of the typing so this shouldn't come as a surprise. I also think it is fine for an uninvested set to heavily threaten, but not OHKO Hemo.
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Meteor Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 414-488 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 203-239 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 127-151 (32.4 - 38.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Meteor Beam vs. 92 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem: 278-328 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 92 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem: 156-184 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 92 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem: 136-161 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
Kyurem wins as it should, but switching in is risky and that is fine. Who can position their breaker better is quitessential Pokémon as is chipping down a shared check so a teammate can break it.
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ogerpon: 385-455 (127.9 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Energy Ball vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 257-304 (85.3 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Venusaur Energy Ball vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Energy Ball vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 296-350 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Venusaur Energy Ball vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 164-194 (54.4 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 242-288 (80.3 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
CAP 38 is supposed to be an Ogerpon counter and well it is. While it seems unlikely that defensive sets will opt for dual STAB, the option is still there and helps with Garganacl as well. I like that Sludge Bomb doesn't OHKO as it gives a tiny margin for error (70% of the time) with no entry hazards.
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snaelstrom: 280-330 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snaelstrom: 157-186 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snaelstrom: 136-161 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
Needing Meteor Beam to be a proper threat is nice as Life Orb seems like a rough matchup at least in the 1v1.
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 234-276 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 270-318 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 146-174 (28.4 - 33.8%) -- 94.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Venusaur Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 390-458 (75.8 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 270-318 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It plays out how you'd expect. Meteor Beam sets can win, but it is damn tricky and if it is in v Lu is probably looking to chip it before getting phased while everything else smokes it long term. Energy Ball 2HKOing is nice as well for Choice Specs. It is Lu, and OHKO shouldn't be expected.
0 SpA Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD Arghonaut: 228-270 (55.2 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD Arghonaut: 276-326 (66.8 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD Arghonaut: 359-424 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Securing a 2HKO without investment is good while Meteor Beam sets cannot OHKO. This is a nice medium where every set is good against Argh, but Life Orb and Choice Specs sets truly shine.
252 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 312-368 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 406-478 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tera exists and there will likely be scenarios where it is worthwhile to tera Clefable to knock the Life Orb and take away CAP 38's ability to properly break.
0 SpA Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 76-90 (18.6 - 22%) -- possible 6HKO
0 SpA Venusaur Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 84-100 (20.5 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 226-266 (55.3 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 184-218 (45 - 53.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 138-163 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- 31% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 294-346 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 239-283 (58.5 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 200-237 (49 - 58%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 179-212 (43.8 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Equilibria is the main reason to give CAP 38 real fire coverage. Can't say I'm the biggest fan of that personally given Ground is already powerful, but those are the calcs.
252 SpA Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 344-408 (85.1 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 230-272 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 304-359 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 188-224 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Trading itself to Salt Cure a LO set may be worth it sometimes, otherwise a supremely positive matchup.
0 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 170-200 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 268-317 (85 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 206-244 (65.3 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 308-364 (97.7 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 170-202 (44.9 - 53.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 270-320 (71.4 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 208-246 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 310-366 (82 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Defensive sets having the bulk to survive and potentially trade is nice.
0 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Mollux: 224-268 (56.9 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Tera Fairy Mollux: 168-200 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
No surprised here.
0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 135-159 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 165-195 (43 - 50.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 246-289 (64.2 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 214-253 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 203-239 (56 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Grouped them together b/c it is either Beam or Bomb and Bomb does enough
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pecharunt: 278-328 (73.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tera Ground Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pecharunt: 416-491 (109.4 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pecharunt: 174-206 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pecharunt: 214-252 (56.3 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Revenankh: 173-204 (47.5 - 56%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Cresceidon: 118-141 (32.4 - 38.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Tera Poison Cresceidon: 79-94 (21.7 - 25.8%) -- 2.8% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Cresceidon: 187-222 (51.3 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Tera Poison Cresceidon: 125-148 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 230-272 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This damage seems fine?
0 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 292-344 (97 - 114.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Iron Moth: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Kitsunoh: 190-224 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shox: 129-152 (27.1 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shox: 147-174 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- 61.7% chance to 3HKO
Special attacker can't break through a Special wall and relies on status is fine.
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ceruledge: 284-336 (97.5 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ceruledge: 250-294 (85.9 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
This differentiates Meteor Beam v LO sets which I like
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chuggalong: 229-270 (99.1 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chuggalong: 146-172 (63.2 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Meteor Beam into +1 Sludge KOs, rough otherwise
0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Malaconda: 170-204 (39.1 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Malaconda: 210-248 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Malaconda: 312-368 (71.8 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Ramnarok: 213-255 (59 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Ramnarok: 164-196 (45.4 - 54.2%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Ramnarok: 296-352 (81.9 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4: Our winning ability Flower Veil has a rather high power level, how much should this ability be taken into account when balancing the stats for this pokémon?
Another thing to consider is Flower Veil's power level. Some people consider the ability to be very low in power, but I do think its important to note: We are a mon that's completely immune to status (except when tera'd), that opens some interesting posibilities regarding our bulk and how far we are allowed to go if we are immune to some of the biggest sources of passive damage in the metagame.
4: Our winning ability Flower Veil has a rather high power level, how much should this ability be taken into account when balancing the stats for this pokémon?
I do believe, as seems to be the common consensus, Flower Veil is effectively a glorified Limber with special bias. The only other advantage we really get is stat drop blocks, which have niche utility in this meta imo (Take my words on the meta with a grain of salt I’m not great at singles). I think it should be fine to treat this ability like this Pokemon had Limber and was holding Clear Amulet in a bonus item slot, which isn’t particularly mortifying to me. Mostly, let’s just leave ability on the sidelines while we make stat limits, and focus more on movepool and the CA2 goals.
Yo, our original threats list had a lot of baked-in dependencies for coverage and bias, so I thought I'd clean it up now that we have those (mostly) decided. I ran this past Spammernoob on discord and he said it looked good.
I think a Speed floor and ceiling between Ogerpon and Dragapult makes sense (111-141). Personally I'd like to be remain slower than Zamazenta, but I don't really see a reason why we have to force it with a speed cap. Zama isn't a matchup that we have identified as important at... any point this process, unless I've missed something? It's not on our threats list, at the very least. If stat submitters want to creep Zama then they should feel free to; in general, I prefer stat limits that leave more room for freedom during submissions.
Adding to the choir that Flower Veil does not need any kind of accounting for with BSR. The fact the ability comes with it's own built-in drawback of sorts by making Tera very jank is already all the "balancing" it could ever need, though even if it didn't restrict Tera I don't think it needs much merit for penalties. The vast majority of effects on BSR should be from moves.
For question 1, I suggest that a baseline Speed range of 115 to 122 hits the sweet spot. It allows CAP 38 to outpace dangerous attackers like Ogerpon-Wellspring and Darkrai while preserving stat points for defensive bulk.
Let's assume a baseline bulk setup of 100 HP / 90 Def / 100 SpD to test key defensive calculations:
Special Defensive Priority (The Core Matchups) Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 100 HP / 100 SpD Grass/Poison: 252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD CAP 38: 24.3 - 28.7% — Guaranteed 5HKO.
Specs Iron Valiant Psychic vs. 100 HP / 100 SpD (Super Effective Coverage): 252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD CAP 38: 61.5 - 72.7% — Guaranteed 2HKO.
Physical Defensive Check Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 100 HP / 90 Def: 252 Atk Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def CAP 38: 33.4 - 39.5% — Guaranteed 3HKO.
The Nuclear Option: +1 Meteor Beam into Sludge Bomb
Since Meteor Beam grants a +1 Special Attack boost on turn one: +1 252 SpA CAP 38 Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: Calculates to roughly 48% - 56% — Guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
+1 252 SpA CAP 38 Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: Calculates to an immediate OHKO (100%).
Unboosted Coverage Trade-offs 252 SpA CAP 38 Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: Calculates to roughly 54% - 64% — Guaranteed 2HKO. (Essential for preventing Steel types from hard-walling your STAB moves). [1]
252 SpA CAP 38 Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: Calculates to roughly 88% - 104% — High chance to OHKO after minor chip.
Because Flower Veil grants complete immunity to Toxic stalling, paralysis slowdowns, and burn drops, CAP 38 doesn't need excessive, legendary-tier bulk to function. A highly optimized 110 Speed paired with a 110-115 Special Attack stat allows us to secure crucial 2HKOs against Gholdengo and Clefable while utilizing recovery moves to out-sustain the metagame.
1: One of Eternatus' biggest selling points in Ubers is its high speed when compaired to most of the metagame. Are there any reasons as to consider slower spreads for the next stage? Regardless, what's the range for speed tiers that we should consider for our own speed stat?
Not much to add. 111-137 is the correct range. I would leave Zama, Pult and Deo S as mons that definitely should outspeed and can see arguments for Stratagem (this sorta mirrors mons like Deo A, Zacian or Flutter Mane that outspeed Eternatus). We also aren’t majorly threatened by Zama and Hex Pult and should have a very hard time vs Deo S, Specs Pult vs offensive and Stratagem if we’re slower.
The only matchup here that changes drastically if we outspeed is Stratagem so if we want to outspeed it, it should come with a slight penalty of sorts. (Maybe just having slightly tighter bsr In general is enough).
Our winning ability Flower Veil has a rather high power level, how much should this ability be taken into account when balancing the stats for this pokémon?
since we aren’t going to be a physical attacker and we likely won’t have forms of speed control, the only relevance the ability has on stats is for the potential of Stacking Multiple Meteor Beams, or if we ever consider cosmic power, bc the boosts can’t be removed. That said the best anti boost options in the meta come in the shape of phasing anyway so idk if that’s actually a hoop we have to jump through.
3: We decided on the previous stage that we will be deciding on a special attacker, with our list of prefered moves being the following:
Based on these moves, what are some of the more key offensive benchmarks we are looking to hit?
my preference here is securing 2hkos with specifically sludge bomb on neutral flying types that might want to switch in on Grass/Ground.
38 should be able to break past Torn T, Obliterix, Moltres or Zapdos with the caveat of having to run Life Orb. You start to get there at around 125 SpA.
AV Torn T which has the highest bulk here folds to 2 125 SpA Life Orb Sludge Bombs with rocks up, which I think looks like a very rewarding benchmark for 38 and also coincides with Meteor Beams netting a Ohko on Venom (at least the set from the calc), which imo should be a reward for predicting the correct turn to hit it. It’s also the lowest SpA attack that has a miniature chance to 2hko a Gking on the switch.
For those reasons I feel like 125 SpA is a solid benchmark that SpA for stat spreads should be centered around.
For higher bounds we should look at the output we can reach with Leaf Storm imo note that 2 consecutive Lef Storms still hit harder than two 90bp moves. Neutral Ohkos aren’t necessarily Eternatus strong suit at least not against bulkier mons (Specs Draco probably still claims some stuff against offense but comes with its own drawbacks.
Tbf Leaf Storm isn’t exactly as spammable so I’m less worried about that happening. This gen we have seen insane SpA like Iron moth and Kyurem be somewhat balanced, so I definitely can see entertaining Special Attacks as high as Eternatus itself (not sure on the optics of having more).
This would potentially help defensive sets as well, bc suffice to say the calcs look dire.
I feel like our goal should be to use relevant calcs to establish a viable range of stats. Below, I demonstrate an approach I think makes sense at this stage:
Here, I piggy-back off of Amamama's Question 2 response. Personally, I'm not sure what the most relevant 2HKO or OHKO benchmarks are (maybe OHKO vs Hemogoblin? 40HP vs 252HP?) For the below table, I assumed 248HP / 0SpD and find the lowest SpA that guarantees 2HKO w/ 252SpA EVs
Pokemon
LO 2HKO
non-LO 2HKO
106
152
108
154
115
164
106
153
I think this indicates, if we want to incentivize offensive sets to use LO, SpA should be somewhere between 110 and 150SpA. Of course, more calcs should help us narrow this range.
I'm surprised no one has made a reverse-calc that finds relevant stat breakpoints given certain matchups yet. I feel like that would be something CAP people would do.
On the defensive side, I think it is relevant to take into account LO damage in trades. For example, if Moltres does at least 90% to CAP38, it wins; if it does between 80% and 90%, it trades. This should give us more leeway with respect to balancing bulk; as long was we properly incentivize LO, this will provide an additional degree of separation between sets (just as how LO further separates defensive and offensive damage output, on top of EV investment).
EDIT: I'll make this more explicit since Guingil seems to have missed the point of the post. Rather than picking a SpA stat and looking at calcs from that stat, we should first pick relevant calc benchmarks, and see what stats fulfill those benchmarks.
Re: bumboclaat and Amamama's posts, they have made a good argument for 125SpA being a good benchmark. However, such posts seem much more fitting for a stat submission. The main issue is that, at this stage, we are deciding on the boundaries of our design space. What is the lowest SpA we can tolerate? What is the highest? How does Speed or bulk affect these values? etc. 125SpA feels solidly in the middle of the acceptable range, so it's not super useful for what we're trying to do at this junction.
Based on our perceived good matchups from Threats Discussion, what are some calcs that we are looking to be able to hit with our bulk? Which side should be given special priority when it comes to our bulk?
Only targeting these questions, as I broadly agree with the Speed benchmarks mentioned in the thread, as well as that Flower Veil doesn't matter too much for calcs. For offensive/defensive considerations, I thought it'd be useful to compare to . I imagine 38 will trade that Pokemon's bulk for its Speed tier, but with our item of choice of Life Orb and a Timid nature, I think it can give us a useful idea of where we stand with respect to the metagame.
Just as a reminder, Mega Venusaur's base stats are 80/100/123/122/120/80. The tankiness values are PT = 123.69 and ST = 121.62, which correspond roughly to 100/106/104 or 120/93/91 for better intuitive vision for our assumed high HP stat. These are more than what I imagine for 38, so what I have done in the following list is bold a few interactions that might be swung over to OHKOs/2HKOs by a lower tankiness spread. Similarly, I have bolded a few offensive interactions that I think are interesting and can be played with (albeit, here we have to consider that the meta might adjust specifically to avoid this if there is wiggle room for alternate investment, e.g., Obliteryx). This list is more meant as a reference than anything else and is also not exhaustive.
Opponent
Our Best Move
Our Damage Min %
Our Damage Max %
Their Best Move
Damage Into Us Min %
Damage Into Us Max %
(PhysDef)
Energy Ball
127.5
150.4
Flip Turn
7
8.6
(SpDef)
Energy Ball
73.3
86.9
Salt Cure
12.3
15
(PhysDef)
Energy Ball
85
100.7
Knock Off
20.9
24.9
(Mixed Attacker)
Sludge Bomb
213.1
251.9
Knock Off
24.3
28.9
(Dragon Dance)
Earth Power
99.7
117.6
Wave Crash
24.3
28.9
(PhysDef)
Earth Power
71.8
84.7
Malignant Chain
27.9
32.9
(Offensive)
Sludge Bomb
125.2
148.5
Knock Off
27.9
32.9
(All-Out Attacker)
Sludge Bomb
50.5
59.1
Stone Edge
28.6
33.9
(Defensive Pivot)
Energy Ball
56.5
66.8
Earthquake
41.9
49.2
(Utility)
Sludge Bomb
101.4
120.1
Moonblast
13
15.6
(PhysDef)
Sludge Bomb
101
119.5
Moonblast
14
16.6
(PhysDef)
Earth Power
97.3
115.3
Sludge Bomb
24.3
28.9
(Swords Dance)
Sludge Bomb
142.1
167.3
Double-Edge
28.2
33.6
(Utility)
Earth Power
89.9
106.4
Shadow Strike
28.2
33.9
(Utility)
Energy Ball
65.6
77.8
Earthquake
28.9
34.2
(Nasty Plot)
Sludge Bomb
105.8
126
Fickle Beam
28.9
34.2
(Utility)
Sludge Bomb
61.1
72.6
Knock Off
29.2
34.9
(Offensive)
Sludge Bomb
125.2
148.5
Knock Off
33.9
39.9
(Mixed Attacker)
Earth Power
54.6
64.4
Dragon Darts
35.9
42.5
(Swords Dance)
Sludge Bomb
56.3
66.6
Gunk Shot
37.5
44.2
(Offensive)
Energy Ball
161.1
190.3
Ceaseless Edge
39.2
46.2
(Calm Mind)
Earth Power
69.1
81.8
Dragon Pulse
45.2
53.8
(Choice Band)
Sludge Bomb
144
170.1
Knock Off
46.8
55.5
(Setup Sweeper)
Earth Power
97
114.7
Clanging Scales
48.2
57.1
(Swords Dance)
Earth Power
74.9
88.9
Kowtow Cleave
52.8
62.1
(Offensive)
Energy Ball
105.6
125.1
Ice Beam
53.5
63.8
(Offensive Spinner)
Energy Ball
163.9
193.3
Headlong Rush
55.1
65.1
(PhysDef)
Sludge Bomb
112.9
133.3
Psychic Noise
60.5
71.8
(SpDef)
Earth Power
90.1
107.1
Lava Plume
61.8
73.8
(Swords Dance)
Energy Ball
94.8
113
Headlong Rush
63.1
74.8
(PhysDef)
Sludge Bomb
54.3
64.5
Flamethrower
67.8
79.7
(Nasty Plot)
Sludge Bomb
71.2
84.7
Ice Beam
75.1
89
(Calm Mind)
Energy Ball
58.8
69.5
Boomburst
78.7
92.7
(Power Herb)
Energy Ball
153
180.7
Meteor Beam
78.7
93
(Assault Vest)
Earth Power
70.6
83.7
Inferno
83.7
98.3
(Calm Mind)
Sludge Bomb
56.1
66.4
Psychic Noise
84.4
99.7
(Specs)
Sludge Bomb
62.6
74
Draco Meteor
87
103
(Offensive)
Earth Power
144.9
170.6
Magma Storm
93.7
110.3
(Offensive)
Sludge Bomb
122.7
144.4
Flare Blitz
97.7
115.6
(PhysDef)
Energy Ball
18
21.3
Body Press
14
16.6
(Bulky Setup)
Energy Ball
34.7
41.5
Razor Shell
11
13
(PhysDef)
Energy Ball
11.8
14
U-turn
12.6
15
(Nasty Plot)
Sludge Bomb
18.7
22.2
Hurricane
78.4
92.3
(Utility)
Energy Ball
44.6
53.1
Earthquake
32.9
38.9
(SpDef)
Earth Power
34.9
41.6
Ice Beam
39.9
47.2
(BulkySetup)
Sludge Bomb
46.4
54.9
Poltergeist
47.8
56.1
(SpDef)
Energy Ball
28.9
34.3
Doom Desire
54.8
64.8
(Dragon Dance)
Sludge Bomb
28.5
33.4
Ice Spinner
55.1
65.1
(Nasty Plot with Balloon)
Energy Ball
31.4
37.1
Make It Rain
56.8
67.1
(SpDef)
Earth Power
42.1
50.3
Future Sight
79.7
94.4
(OU Defensive)
Sludge Bomb
47.3
55.9
Hurricane
81.7
96.3
(Swords Dance)
Earth Power
83.8
99.3
Bitter Blade
103.7
122.6
(Specs)
Earth Power
71.3
84.1
Psyshock
104.3
123.6
(Mixed Attacker)
Sludge Bomb
92.1
109.1
Psycho Boost
105.6
124.3
(Nasty Plot)
Sludge Bomb
66.6
78.6
Bleakwind Storm
109
127.9
(Specs)
Sludge Bomb
50.9
60.1
Ice Beam
125.6
148.2
(Specs)
Earth Power
150.2
178.1
Overheat
191.4
225.2
(Standard)
Sludge Bomb
42.2
49.8
Beak Blast
88.3
104.3
It might be interesting to do this for defensive sets. This is especially relevant with Geko's question about defensive bias. I don't think we need to worry about ensuring there is no bias, but rather that we reach relevant benchmarks with marked Defense and Special Defense bias sets. High HP has been floated around as something Eternatus has and as a way to incentivize investing in one defense instead, so could be cool to look at that.
Gonna keep the questions about our Offensive and Defensive benchmarks open since that's something I rather us discuss to be able to set the offensive and defensive limits in the same page for all of us. For the rest of the questions there has been some clear consensus of both the fact that Flower Veil shouldn't punish our BSR and what our speed limits should be. Thus im establishing a concrete range of speeds between 111-141. 111 is the bare minimum speed required to outspeed Ogerpon and thus will be our lower limit, while the consensus is that Zama and Pult are on the higher end of what were are allowed to outspeed. Given there's been some minor interest in having the option to outspeed Zama, I decided that our speed ceiling shall remain just behind Dragapult at 141.
I think the next step to discuss before formalizing any particular option is discussing BSR and Stat Limit penalties for each of our optional moves, as well as potentially discussing wherever some of these options should become somewhat exclusive. As a reminder and for convinience, the 3 elements in contention for BSR penalties are Fire Coverage (Mystical Fire, Flamethrower, Fire Blast), Apple Acid, and Wil'o'Wisp. What should their penalties be and where should they be carried out?
Finally, a question for some of the more knowledgeable math nerds out there: What should our T-Value be for this process? For context, right now we are looking to have a T-value of 2.75, akin to that of Creseidon, but we might want a higher value to due wanting to have some rather stronger offenses than Cres.
I apologize for the low effort/lower quality responses,but i just wanted to say that i think 111 is a perfect low baseline,props to gekokeso for choosing that,i have no qualms with the higher end one either,I can't wait to see what happens next with this cap mon
For offensive calcs, I wanted to compare Energy Ball and Giga Drain. Having enough special attack to viably run Giga Drain would be a major boon to the Life Orb set, so I looked at how much base SpAtk would be needed to guarantee a handful of benchmarks (assuming 252 evs and neutral nature).
Target
Condition
Energy Ball 3-HKO
Giga Drain 3-HKO
Energy Ball 2-HKO
Ting-Lu (252 HP / 252+ SpDef)
None
94
122
154
Gliscor (244 HP / 228+ SpDef)
Stealth Rocks
89
116
138
Gliscor (244 HP / 228+ SpDef)
None
106
137
159
Zam (252 HP / 0 SpDef)
None
104
135
167
Snaelstrom (252 HP / 252+ SpDef)
Tera Grass
102
132
158
Snaelstrom (252 HP / 252+ SpDef)
Stealth Rocks
113
145
166
Not comprehensive, just taking the highest ranked mons that could tank some hits while not resisting grass. There's not much overlap between columns, so maybe penalties could trade some of these benchmarks for access to a specific move?
I also looked at some defensive calcs with Gliscor against 4 HP / 0 Def CAP38.
Base 120 HP / 71 Def (PT = 98.62) is exactly OHKO'd by +2 Tera Normal Facade. Without Tera, then +2 Earthquake does 71.4% minimum, while non-Tera Facade is 66.7% minimum. If CAP38 is using Life Orb without Giga Drain, then it will pretty easily chip down to where Gliscor doesn't need to Tera.
With Giga Drain, the healing happens before LO chip, so Gliscor needs to deal about 90% to KO.
Base 125 HP / 78 Def (PT = 109.26) is always knocked out, taking 90.3% minimum for Gliscor +2 Tera Normal Facade.
Base 125 HP / 96 Def (PT = 129.96) always survives, taking 89.7% maximum.
Regarding BSR penalties: Mystical Fire / Flamethrower / Fire Blast
I think tiered penalties here make sense.
Consider past BSR penalties; Cresceidon had 5BSR penalty for Ice or Ground coverage. Chuggalong had required Surf / Flamethrower, and Fire Blast / Hydro Pump conferred 3SS penalty each (or 5BSR for both). I think it's reasonable to give 5BSR penalty for Flamethrower, and 8BSR penalty for Fire Blast (non-cumulative). Mystical Fire can either be no penalty or 2-3BSR penalty depending on how we feel I suppose. I don't mind applying it to SS instead of BSR? Curious what people think on this.
Will-o-Wisp
Maybe this is worth some bulk penalty? Fast burn spreading is quite strong as a damage mitigation tool. I would not go above 5BSR penalty here though. It's possible to put the penalty on PT instead?
Apple Acid
This one probably requires the largest BSR penalty. 10-15 is probably the right range for this? I'm not really sure. Maybe someone else can speak on this (15BSR is quite a lot). I do not like the idea of an SS penalty here, as Apple Acid inherently incentivizes maximizing bulk so it would not do much.
T-value is supposed to relate inversely to the number of targets we expect to take out per game, as per here. The issue is that this is likely different for offensive and defensive spreads; for Cresceidon, we used t=2.75; for Ramnarok-Radiant, we used t=1.5. The issue is that we need one t-value to cover both sets; Guingil suggested we just average them. I'm not sure if this has theoretical justification.
Practically, for the ranges we care about, higher t-values incur a larger penalty on SpA for each increase in Speed Factor. Of course, SF has an issue where it increases very slowly for the upper end of the range we care about. Below is a comparison of the sweepiness modifier for t = (1, 1.5, 2, 2.5).
We can adjust these lines vertically by just adjusting limits, but t-value determines the Speed : SpA tradeoff dynamic. I guess the key practical concern is how valuable we consider each point of Speed past 125, compared to each point of Speed before 125?
These offensive calcs against the Poison Heal mons do not properly take into account healing on turn of switch-in, or healing from Protect turns, as the calculator does not properly factor in healing from Pheal. You have to factor every turn manually. By accounting for this manually, this raises the 3HKO floor for Energy Ball on Gliscor w/ Rocks from this posts proposed 89 SpA to a whopping 122 SpA.
(Base 122 SpA) 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Energy Ball vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 164-192 (46.5 - 54.5%)
100 - 12 from Rocks on switchin, -46 minimum from Eball, + 12 from Pheal = 54. 54 + 12 from protect healing = 66. 66 - 46 eball + 12 healing = 32. 32 + 12 protect healing = 44. 44 - 46 eball = 3hko
Lowering the minimum damage of E-Ball even to 45 means you miss out on guaranteed 3HKO status, as Gliscor ends up with 46 at a maximum. Even if my math is wrong here (which it very well could be, I suck at this shit lmao), having to jump through hoops like this for calcing 2 specific mons does not feel very productive, at least to me.
This kind of more complicated math on achieving certain thresholds for Poison Heal mons specifically makes them a lot more annoying to analyze than a normal mon, made more so by the calculator not working well for plotting out how interactions against these mons actually go in practice. I think we're better off spent not focusing too much on working out offensive thresholds for Gliscor & Snael. Given how many variables are at play with 38 potentially having things like Apple Acid swinging MUs, and the omni-present Meteor Beam in the room, I'd prefer to focus offensive benchmarks around other mons. The ting and zama calcs from this post are quite helpful, and I'd like to see more like them!
Consider past BSR penalties; Cresceidon had 5BSR penalty for Ice or Ground coverage. Chuggalong had required Surf / Flamethrower, and Fire Blast / Hydro Pump conferred 3SS penalty each (or 5BSR for both). I think it's reasonable to give 5BSR penalty for Flamethrower, and 8BSR penalty for Fire Blast (non-cumulative). Mystical Fire can either be no penalty or 2-3BSR penalty depending on how we feel I suppose. I don't mind applying it to SS instead of BSR? Curious what people think on this.
Will-o-Wisp
Maybe this is worth some bulk penalty? Fast burn spreading is quite strong as a damage mitigation tool. I would not go above 5BSR penalty here though. It's possible to put the penalty on PT instead?
Apple Acid
This one probably requires the largest BSR penalty. 10-15 is probably the right range for this? I'm not really sure. Maybe someone else can speak on this (15BSR is quite a lot). I do not like the idea of an SS penalty here, as Apple Acid inherently incentivizes maximizing bulk so it would not do much.
Using spammers post as springboard for BSR penalties. I think Acid should have 15 as a minimum BSR penalty. If spreads want to invest in, it should either come at the cost of all (or most) other optional moves, or risk losing important benchmarks. Wisp can probably be a 5 BSR? Idk hard for me to eval, I don't think it should be free but anything higher than 5 feels excessive. I do like the idea of tiering each Fire coverage separately, but I think it'd make more sense for Flamethrower/Fire Blast to be paired together for a shared penalty. Realistically any spread wanting Fire offensively will want the option to pick between either, so a 10 or higher feels appropriate for both them. Mystical Fire at 5 is probably fine? My only concern is making it not feel free to throw on if the spread otherwise eschews the stronger Fire moves. Somewhere between 5-10 is probably more apt, esp if people think Flamethrower/Fire Blast penalties ought to be higher.
my preference here is securing 2hkos with specifically sludge bomb on neutral flying types that might want to switch in on Grass/Ground.
38 should be able to break past Torn T, Obliterix, Moltres or Zapdos with the caveat of having to run Life Orb. You start to get there at around 125 SpA.
AV Torn T which has the highest bulk here folds to 2 125 SpA Life Orb Sludge Bombs with rocks up, which I think looks like a very rewarding benchmark for 38 and also coincides with Meteor Beams netting a Ohko on Venom (at least the set from the calc), which imo should be a reward for predicting the correct turn to hit it. It’s also the lowest SpA attack that has a miniature chance to 2hko a Gking on the switch.
For those reasons I feel like 125 SpA is a solid benchmark that SpA for stat spreads should be centered around.
(Everything written below is without considering apple acid- its kinda hard to talk about regular stat benchmarks with this move)
I like this post but everything about it is indicating that 125 SpA should be our minimum rather than the center. Because if a 3A SpA guy is dropping below 125 and struggling getting past casual physical walls with a Life Orb and no other capabilities to contribute to the team build (sweeper, hazards, whatever) then its kinda a waste of team space. Same with GKing, scraping a 2hko seems like the lowest we should go, and we still have plenty of weaknesses after improving that matchup. Dunno if thats what you meant or not by benchmark but yea thats my take.
Just in general I hope we avoid our usual minimum required stats method where we just take some mons targeted by our typing and make sure we scrape a guaranteed ohko/2hko with an offensive set. Having abundant stats is THE eternatus defining feature for me and furthermore it has a massive effect on the value of this mon that is playing every other stage conservatively, hoping to find a slot amongst monstrous offensive alternatives with casual 135 spa and boosting moves like Darkrai. I know some people are keen on taking a more conservative route even in this stage and I just think it might be an ongoing misunderstanding of how mons in gen 9 need either a role to play in the team (not just tanky, not just offensive, and spreading 30% poison isnt a team role either) or be overpowered to justify a placement. There's basically no reason I can see that this isnt the highest SpA CAP we've ever done considering its gen 9, mid stabs, no crazy moves and no other responsibilities on the team
Btw some offensive calcs that would be massive for allowing defensive sets to justify their existence a bit more, as solid answer to sweepers:
ohkos with modest 0 investment: with 40 hp: 149 SpA 144 SpA 123 SpA 78 SpA lol with 0hp: 130 SpA (giga drain) with 252hp: 156 SpA (giga drain)
2hkos with modest 0 investment: at +1: 153 SpA at +1 with tera: 130 SpA (giga drain)
do we need to hit 150 for this mon to be viable? No, but the closer you get to this number the better, considering a lot of these mons can tera to make your move not ohko if they need to force through you. if youre threatening 70-80% when super effective, some of these mons might be able to synthesis/double-boost on you at this point also? so I think we should be looking at high numbers that minimize our ability to be taken advantage of.
4: Our winning ability Flower Veil has a rather high power level, how much should this ability be taken into account when balancing the stats for this pokémon?
Another thing to consider is Flower Veil's power level. Some people consider the ability to be very low in power, but I do think its important to note: We are a mon that's completely immune to status (except when tera'd), that opens some interesting posibilities regarding our bulk and how far we are allowed to go if we are immune to some of the biggest sources of passive damage in the metagame.
We could likely end up on par with or lower defensively than some of the legendaries/pseudo sweepers in the tier like wake, dragonite, kyurem, gambit, raging bolt etc that all have either speed boosting moves/items/prio plus offensive boosting. so I definitely dont see our defensive strength as being so high that the offenses need to suffer at all. We're just a special attacking poison type when it comes to our status resistance, this can't be so extreme of a benefit that we should lose out on some stats.
Mons that can trade with us with stats rivalling those mons are common ground types in general, defensive pivots like libra, gliscor, still glowking (especially if they tweak their sets or av pops back up), still corv, still venom, mons on balloon (gambit ghold etc), AV stuff like Hoopa or Torn, and other regen mons once they've Terastalized. Also in general we are extremely easy to take advantage of with pivots and walls that are already in (spamming recovery) if we have Life Orb and nothing to abuse during free turns.
im going to throw my two cents in here: Wouldnt over 150 special attack be overpowered,especially on a fast attacker pokemon? i know its grass and poison,but the point stands and im genuinely confused.
im going to throw my two cents in here: Wouldnt over 150 special attack be overpowered,especially on a fast attacker pokemon? i know its grass and poison,but the point stands and im genuinely confused.
im going to throw my two cents in here: Wouldnt over 150 special attack be overpowered,especially on a fast attacker pokemon? i know its grass and poison,but the point stands and im genuinely confused.
Personally I would say no because the difference between 150 special attack and lets say 135 special attack is not game breaking at all
135 SpA
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 199-234 (49.2 - 57.9%)
150 SpA
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 212-251 (52.4 - 62.1%)
That being said I dont ever dream of us getting 150 SpA because a) its over Eternatus' SpA which is probably just thematically unappealing to most people and b) because we have never broken the top stat of any tier we are in as far as I know, and the highest SpA in OU is 140. But it really isnt that confusing to push for us to be the best in the tier when the actual highest SpA mon has access to booster energy, high speed, better STABs, a STAB fire move that gives it +1 SpA 50% of the time, the ability to boost its stab with weather, equally good coverage, also recovery, pivoting, even hazards, and is specially tanky and has some useful defensive utility.
Also I listed a bunch of mons and basic strats that check it even with high SpA in the last post
im going to throw my two cents in here: Wouldnt over 150 special attack be overpowered,especially on a fast attacker pokemon? i know its grass and poison,but the point stands and im genuinely confused.
Keep the Sp. Attack on the lower end so that they get more mileage out of Meteor Beam's boosting. Something fast and bulky sounds the most interesting while still evoking the pain of fighting Eternatus.
(Plus, I think it would be interesting visually since we tend to have lots of slender Grass-Types, a "brick house" build would stand out.)
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 248 HP / 192 SpD Groudon-Primal: 207-243 (51.3 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 299-354 (92 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 478-564 (75.1 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ho-Oh: 157-187 (37.7 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 199-234 (44.9 - 52.8%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 199-234 (52.2 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 377-447 (89.5 - 106.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 153-181 (44.8 - 53%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 253-298 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 263-309 (66.9 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 199-234 (46.1 - 54.2%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Fire Blast vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 236-279 (64.1 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence-Mega: 507-595 (153.1 - 179.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Well, out of all the mons in S and A rank in NDUbers, LO Etern fails to 2HKO one of them. How exactly is this not a 2HKO machine?
EDIT: If we don't 2HKO a SpDef invested mon, that's fine, but there's nothing crazy about 2HKOing offensive mons or PhysDef mons (like , the ones that were discussed earlier)
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 248 HP / 192 SpD Groudon-Primal: 207-243 (51.3 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 299-354 (92 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 478-564 (75.1 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ho-Oh: 157-187 (37.7 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 199-234 (44.9 - 52.8%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 199-234 (52.2 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 377-447 (89.5 - 106.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 153-181 (44.8 - 53%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 253-298 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 263-309 (66.9 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 199-234 (46.1 - 54.2%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Fire Blast vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 236-279 (64.1 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence-Mega: 507-595 (153.1 - 179.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Well, out of all the mons in S and A rank in NDUbers, LO Etern fails to 2HKO one of them. How exactly is this not a 2HKO machine?
EDIT: If we don't 2HKO a SpDef invested mon, that's fine, but there's nothing crazy about 2HKOing offensive mons or PhysDef mons (like , the ones that were discussed earlier)
said what I'd have written.
Venomicon
Blissey
Corviknight (If no Fire-type coverage)
Deoxys-Speed
Zapdos
Dragapult
. I imagine 38 will trade that Pokemon's bulk for its Speed tier, but with our item of choice of Life Orb and a Timid nature, I think it can give us a useful idea of where we stand with respect to the metagame.
(PhysDef)
(Mixed Attacker)
(Dragon Dance)
(Offensive)
(Defensive Pivot)
(PhysDef)
(Swords Dance)
(Nasty Plot)
(Swords Dance)
(Offensive)
(Calm Mind)
(Choice Band)
(Swords Dance)
(Offensive)
(Offensive Spinner)
(Swords Dance)
(Nasty Plot)
(Calm Mind)
(Power Herb)
(Calm Mind)
(Specs)
(Offensive)
(PhysDef)
(SpDef)
(Specs)
Ting-Lu (252 HP / 252+ SpDef)
Gliscor (244 HP / 228+ SpDef)
at +1: 153 SpA
