• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

CAP 4 CAP 4 - Ability Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Alright, I'm ending this here and now... This post will single handidly destroy the Frisk opposition.

Frisk only works if you switch INTO the opponent... So let's look at what on the OU list our pokemon will feasibly switch into. Bolded Pokemon are the ones it would be perfectly fine switching into.

Azelf- Not switching into for fear of STAB Psychic
Blissey - Encore bait, and can't do anything
Breloom- (So long as it has slept something already)
Bronzong- See: every other wall
Celebi- See: Every other wall
Cresselia- See: Every other wall
Dragonite- I would never switch into this for fear of a DD Earthquake coming the turn after
Dugtrio- STAB EQ? No thank you...
Dusknoir- I don't see Dusknoir doing anything really to our pokemon, save burning it.
Electivire - Our pokemon is faster and immune to its STAB move
Forretress- See: Every other wall
Gallede- I wouldn't risk switching into a possible CB Psycho Cut... or taking a hit from a SD one either
Garchomp- Are you freaking kidding me? I might switch in on this ONCE... but after that my opponent can predict just as well as I can, and I don't like the idea of an EQ in my face.
Gengar- Sleep/HP Ice and no real way for me to do anything back to it? I won't be switching in.
Gliscor- STAB EQ hurts, but encoring SR is sweet...
Gyrados- DD Waterfalls... enough said
Heatran- Not OHKO'd by any of the moves, fast enough to outspeed and kill with STAB EQ.
Heracross- Not threatened by ANYTHING on Heracross' arsenal... save the rare CB Earthquake
Hippowdon- See: Gliscor
Infernape- Coming in on a Close Combat would be nice, but we're slower and it'll 2HKO us with Fire Blast
Jirachi- Encore bait, can't do anything to us.
Jolteon- I don't know how much Specs HP Ice does... but I wouldn't risk it.
Lucario- See: Heracross
Machamp- See: Lucario & Heracross
Magnezone- HP Ice isn't an OHKO... outspeed and kill w/EQ
Mamoswine- Do I even have to explain?
Milotic- STAB Surf... no thanks
Roserade- Sleep, Specs Leaf Storm... too much to risk to switch in.
Salamence- HAHAHAHAHAHA I would NEVER switch this thing into 'mence
Scizor- Depending on movepool... I don't see either it doing anything to us, and vice versa...
Skarmory- See: Every other wall
Snorlax- See: Every other wall
Spiritomb- See: Every other wall
Starmie- STAB surf...
Suicune- Encore bait kind of if it Calm Minds on your switch... but I wouldn't risk the Surf
Swampert- Hydro Pump/Surf will do a number... and you can't really do much back.
Tentacruel- Surf will never OHKO... but you do with EQ.
Togekiss- Immune to T-wave... faster for Encoring plots. etc...
Tyranitar- might be Band EQ... or Specs Ice Beams etc...
Vaporeon- bulkier than us, and STAB Surf
Weavile- Faster than us, with STAB Ice Punch
Yanmega- I honestly don't know, I might switch in.. depends on how much Air Slash does
Zapdos- Sure, immune to its STAB attack, but what are we going to do to it as it HP Ices us to death and Roosts off the damage?


This thing has good switch-ins to 22/45 pokemon of OU...

Sounds great, but if you look. 16/22 of them are almost GUARANTEED to be packing Leftovers.

The remaining 6 are

Scizor
Heracross
Machamp
Lucario
Heatran
Electivire

So these are the pokemon you get to know what item they're packing... let's see how usefull that information really is.

If any of these pokemon are life orbed, than Frisk is useless... because you're likely to take damage on the switch in.

Band/Scarf COULD be usefull to know, but you could just as easily guestimate whether or not the pokemon did a sufficient enough damage... I know a LOT of people who run damage calcs in the middle of battles... and i personally play enough to where I can roughly guess whether or not a pokemon is Banded/Scarfed...

So in essence... Frisk is USELESS!!!! The Pokemon that you might want it against, are going to beat you 1 on 1, and any intelligent battler would never switch in on it, and the pokemon that you have free switches in on either have leftovers... or predictable items.

I hope this has helped you all realize how bad Frisk would be on our pokemon...

DON'T GO WITH FRISK I BEG OF YOU!!!!!!!!!!
 
Dane said:
For the most part, are you going to switch in your utility Pokemon against something you believe has a Choice item? What's been said multiple times now, but apparently not heard by most people, is that it'll only show you their item on the switch in. Most Pokemon that you people are talking about using Frisk against, the only way you should have Frisk go off is if you're leading with this Pokemon.
Click to expand...
It's certainly fast enough to outspeed some major threats, and has many resistances. If you predict a Dragon Claw from Garchomp, you could switch this in.
Of course, it isn't wise to be switching this into Garchomp in the first place for fear of Earthquake. Frisk fits "flavour" wise and also can be a generally useful ability depending on the situation.
 
I believe it's imperative that we not talk about prediction when making decisions about our pokemon. I think it's best that we assume that it will be played as conservatively as possible... Which means that no sane person will be switching this in on Garchomp.
 
These arguments against Frisk are like arguing Intimidate or Trace is bad.
Yes, Intimidate doesn't work against Special Attackers, but that doesn't take away from its usefulness against physical attackers.
Trace may only be handy with Intimidaters or Pokemon with Type-Specific abilities, but it's useful in many situations nonetheless.
Frisk may not work perfectly on this Pokemon in terms of switching into attacks, and it may not be able to entirely predict what the opponent is packing, but it will have it's uses, and I think it's a bit naive to discount it entirely.
 
Are you serious!? Did you just compare Frisk to the likes of Intimidate or Trace!?!?

I CAN and WILL debate the usefullness of the two aformentioned abilities.

Intimidate works on all physical attackers save Metagross... and decreases their attacks by 1.5 ... this is FUCKING AMAZING!!!!!!!

Trace allows free switch-ins to Heatran/Vaporeon/other type absorbing abilities. It also copies... INTIMIDATE!!!!!!

Frisk gives you useful information on SIX pokemon.... and it's not even that useful. Frisk is novelty at best, and in the few times that it will be even the slightest bit useful I would almost ALWAYS prefer a different ability.

Don't say that Frisk is this grand ability when it's not.
 
While I don't think we should give this pokemon a "broken" ability, I don't think we should intentionally give it a crappy ability either. That's like intentionally giving it shitty stats. Why would we do that? We spend a lot of time trying to make every aspect as effective as possible, without going overboard.

I'm all for flavor where it makes sense, but remember that flavor is a secondary concern on this project. Our primary goal is to make a COMPETITIVE pokemon. Not because flavor isn't important, but flavor can't be argued, investigated, or proven. Flavor is almost completely ambiguous. It's interesting to toss out cute ideas and "Wouldn't it be neat if..." comments. But, let's keep it in perspective. There's no point in agonizing over typing, stats, and movepool -- just to give this some bullshit ability.

Ability is a big part of many competitive pokemon. I don't plan to waste the opportunity to use it to maximum effectiveness.
 
LonelyNess said:
Are you serious!? Did you just compare Frisk to the likes of Intimidate or Trace!?!?

I CAN and WILL debate the usefullness of the two aformentioned abilities.

Intimidate works on all physical attackers save Metagross... and decreases their attacks by 1.5 ... this is FUCKING AMAZING!!!!!!!

Trace allows free switch-ins to Heatran/Vaporeon/other type absorbing abilities. It also copies... INTIMIDATE!!!!!!

Frisk gives you useful information on SIX pokemon.... and it's not even that useful. Frisk is novelty at best, and in the few times that it will be even the slightest bit useful I would almost ALWAYS prefer a different ability.

Don't say that Frisk is this grand ability when it's not.
Click to expand...

Huh?
I never said Frisk was some grand ability.
I'm just saying it's useful, contrary to what you're saying.
I was comparing it to the loopholes in the use of those two abilities.
Both don't work except on the switch.
Both do not have full "effectiveness" on all Pokemon, and further more are specific to certain Pokemon (like physical attackers, Intimidaters, etc)
 
LN is right, in about two moves (turns rounds, whatever you call it) it'll be pretty obvious what the opponent is holding and I'd rather something a lot more useful.
Assuming Cartoons wins which it probly will Sand Veil really doesn't fit the design, how should i bunch of hands in the ground be harder to hit in sand. Well it kinda makes sense but we have enough veilers as it is
Fine sense everyone downed my suggestions we need something more fit for utility.
I would love an auto gravity ability but I think Tennis already said no made up abilities
If Cartoons wins how about something like Suction Cups. If you think about it it's suctioned into the ground by it's hands. And it would be pretty handy while it's in setting up stuff not to be forced out and then having to bring it back in, maybe taking Stones damage or giving your opponent the chance to set up something.
Just a suggestion
 
Thanks for the list fellow earthbound fan, now allow me to use it to make a case for Forewarn.

Blissey - knowing whether it has flamethrower or ice beam is quite useful
Breloom- 99% of the time these are sub punch/seed, forewarn lets you know about the 1%.
Bronzong- You will know if it can explode or not, if it can't explode, you know whether it has eq or just gyroball.
Celebi- Knowing whether it has grass knot or psychic can help you counter it.
Dusknoir- will let you know if it's a sub punch dusknoir or which elemental punch it chose.
Electivire - Lets you pick the one set with no EQ, not that useful against him.
Forretress- does he have eq or just gyroball
Heatran- Lets you know if it can explode, also you get to see whether they have fb lp or ft.
Jirachi- gives you an idea as to wether they're running a physical or special set.
Lucario- Lets you tell specs from sd (I've beaten a lot of people who assumed my lucario was sd).
Machamp- err, can give away a guts machamp if you see crosschop instead of dynamic punch.
Magnezone-warns you about explosion, t-bolt or discharge.
Scizor- can help tell you if he's SD or CB.
Skarmory- drill peck or brave bird (not that useful to know).
Snorlax- warns you about selfdestruct, tells you if he's running return or body slam. Also EQ vs crunch
Spiritomb- tells you if he's physical or special
Tentacruel- lets you know about the extremely rare sd set.
Togekiss- lets you know if he has aura sphere or not.

So as you can see, our supporter would get plenty of use out of forewarn and can help a lot in prediction.
 
the_artic_one said:
Thanks for the list fellow earthbound fan, now allow me to use it to make a case for Forewarn.

Blissey - knowing whether it has flamethrower or ice beam is quite useful
Breloom- 99% of the time these are sub punch/seed, forewarn lets you know about the 1%.
Bronzong- You will know if it can explode or not, if it can't explode, you know whether it has eq or just gyroball.
Celebi- Knowing whether it has grass knot or psychic can help you counter it.
Dusknoir- will let you know if it's a sub punch dusknoir or which elemental punch it chose.
Electivire - Lets you pick the one set with no EQ, not that useful against him.
Forretress- does he have eq or just gyroball
Heatran- Lets you know if it can explode, also you get to see whether they have fb lp or ft.
Jirachi- gives you an idea as to wether they're running a physical or special set.
Lucario- Lets you tell specs from sd (I've beaten a lot of people who assumed my lucario was sd).
Machamp- err, can give away a guts machamp if you see crosschop instead of dynamic punch.
Magnezone-warns you about explosion, t-bolt or discharge.
Scizor- can help tell you if he's SD or CB.
Skarmory- drill peck or brave bird (not that useful to know).
Snorlax- warns you about selfdestruct, tells you if he's running return or body slam. Also EQ vs crunch
Spiritomb- tells you if he's physical or special
Tentacruel- lets you know about the extremely rare sd set.
Togekiss- lets you know if he has aura sphere or not.

So as you can see, our supporter would get plenty of use out of forewarn and can help a lot in prediction.
Click to expand...

I feel this may be a BIT exaggerated... and while Forewarn is certainly better than Frisk... I don't know if it's really all that usefull.

Blissey... I'll agree with, it would be nice to know what Base 95 move it's using.

All of the Exploders I will definately agree with, as knowing whether or not something is packing the surprise explode is DEFINATELY useful information.

But the rest... it's not that great. Each of the pokemon HAVE to use SOMETHING on the switch in... so each of your arguments saying "let's you know if it's physical or special" are not that great... you'll know that the minute it uses a move on your switch in.

Same with things that are using SD... presumably, they're using SD on the switch in, which means that you know they're running the SD set (I can't believe I had to just say that...) So again, not that useful.

Also... on things like Celebi where it doesn't really matter which of its attacks it's carrying, as you'll find out just fine without Forewarn, I feel it's kind of a useless ability.

On the above set of pokemon, Forewarn is nice to have against:

Blissey
Bronzong
Dusknoir
Forretress
Heatran
Magnezone
Snorlax
Togekiss

So instead of being useful on 6/45 OU pokemon... Forwarn is nice on 8/45. Better, but not by much.
 
You are, however, mentioning two incredibly powerful abilities that wouldn't fit on the current pokemon. Sure, Trace and Intimidate are fantastic abilities, but do we really want it on our handyman?

Any other suggestions then, since you don't seem to like Forewarm or Frisk?
 
Umm, I wasn't advocating Trace OR Intimidate. I was merely rebutting an argument made by OMG that Trace/Intimidate don't work all the time on switch ins but that doesn't make them crappy so that doesn't mean that Frisk is crappy (which it is).

After some thought, I am going to actually make the official description of Persistent, so that's it's all good and ready to go for the Ability poll after the Art Poll closes.

Persistent

The following moves have their duration increased by two turns
Gravity/Tailwind/Trick Room/Heal Block/Safeguard


I didn't include the screens because then there's no incentive to ever use Light Clay, which I think should always be a viable option on this Pokemon.
 
LonelyNess said:
I didn't include the screens because then there's no incentive to ever use Light Clay, which I think should always be a viable option on this Pokemon.
Click to expand...
Does any Pokemon even use Light Clay while having the screens? I don't remember seeing any set that recommend it. Also...if Screen were added onto it's effect, would it and Light Clay's effect combine?
 
LonelyNess said:
The tentative power of Persistant is not broken in the slightest. These moves (Gravity/Trick Room/Tailwind hell even the screens) see little to no use in competetive play. Why not use this chance to not only stay true to the original intent of the project, as well as give these moves some added viability?
Click to expand...
I think the reason that these see little play is the nature of the moves themselves. Regardless, my point isn't that this wouldn't be a useful ability. Trust me, I've softened up to the idea since my last post.

However, my main point was that the move doesn't feel realistic. In our attempts to create a usable pokemon, we're straying away from reality of the cartridges, where pokemon get abilities which try to fit the pokemon itself. An owl with insomnia. A bull with anger point. This ability seems like it's being given to the pokemon just to make it competitive, which is nice, and which DEFINITELY plays a key role in the ability choice, but we have to be realistic too. We cannot create a pokemon and give it intimidate just because it is a nice competitive ability. That's what I want to contribute to the discussion.

LonelyNess said:
I'm against encroaching upon other Pokemon's niches as well. We already have a Klutz pokemon, Lopunny. If we give this Pokemon better stats, better movepool, and the same ability to give hindering items as Lopunny, where's the incentive to EVER use her?
Click to expand...

Lopunny fills an entirely different role then this pokemon. She's also in a completely different tier.
In fact, this pokemon already shits all over tentacruel, with better attacking stats, defending stats, and speed. It can also OHKO it and resists stealth rocks were tentacruel doesn't. And if this pokemon DOES get spikes and spin, which people are driving for, tentacruel is terrible in comparion. Even on hail teams, where tentacruel sees the most play as a spinner and fighting resist, this pokemon will do all that, but also resist rock type moves and provide barriers so stallrein can crush normal counters.

LonelyNess said:
And if your only true argument is the freaking NAME of the ability, then change it to something more suitable. Persistant is only a tentative name in the first place, it's the ability that we're debating, not the name of said ability.
Click to expand...

Like I said, persistent is a terrible name.
I already gave a few examples though, but none of them fit the pokemon.
Mystic, Inner Power, or Spiritual would definitely fit this ability, but they do not fit any of the designs well.
Maybe Forceful or something could work but that's a stretch.


Also as a tiny pointless blurb... MR. FUCKING MIME. Why can't he do this better? THIS IS HIS JOB! THIS IS WHAT HE'S MADE FOR! If only he got an evolution or was a bit better, but I would hate to see the BARRIER pokemon make shittier barriers than a silly spider or a farting squirrel.

EDIT: haha sorry about that last bit.
but seriously now
 
DougJustDoug said:
While I don't think we should give this pokemon a "broken" ability, I don't think we should intentionally give it a crappy ability either. That's like intentionally giving it shitty stats. Why would we do that? We spend a lot of time trying to make every aspect as effective as possible, without going overboard.

I'm all for flavor where it makes sense, but remember that flavor is a secondary concern on this project. Our primary goal is to make a COMPETITIVE pokemon. Not because flavor isn't important, but flavor can't be argued, investigated, or proven. Flavor is almost completely ambiguous. It's interesting to toss out cute ideas and "Wouldn't it be neat if..." comments. But, let's keep it in perspective. There's no point in agonizing over typing, stats, and movepool -- just to give this some bullshit ability.

Ability is a big part of many competitive pokemon. I don't plan to waste the opportunity to use it to maximum effectiveness.
Click to expand...

How is giving an amazing ability to something which has slowbro's physical def, 105 speed, a decent typing, and a probable insane movepool which includes a 1 turn recovery not going overboard.
The way we have made it makes it almost certain to be a good OU competitive pokemon, why do we always have to go over the top and make every project a contest to see how close to broken we can make a pokemon.

Persistant is basically as convenient as having a concept called Garchomp counter and creating a new ability where it takes half damage from dragon moves.
 
LonelyNess said:
Persistent

The following moves have their duration increased by two turns
Gravity/Tailwind/Trick Room/Heal Block/Safeguard
Click to expand...

I fully support this. As I explained earlier, I don't think it's broken at all, and will make some moves like Tailwind usable. I mean usable, not even powerful. It's 5 turns WITH the extension.
 
I'd just like to say that we can explain the word choice "persistent" through a lot of things... like DEX Entry.

"Daddy Long Hands are extremely stubborn. Unless unable, one of its hands will always try to get back up."

etc.. etc.. etc..

Persistence is a personality trait, we can explain that through a lot of different ways to make the flavor correct.

Note: Sorry DJD if this is Poll Jumping... I'm not actually submitting a DEX Entry, rather explaining that we can fix flavor of ability with it.

Flavor comes from more than just the art, people.

Also @ Thunderpup: I didn't include the screens in Persistent. Mr. Mime's Barrier making skills are on the same level as our presumptive Pokemon.

@ GT: I don't think that any set necessarily recommends it, as Leftovers is generally better on the whole. But I do know that I have toyed with Light Clay and it works fabulously for what it does. Any set with a screen can viably run Light Clay, just like any set with Rain Dance/Sunny Day can viably run Wet/Heat Rock.

@ Latinoheat: "The way we have made it makes it almost certain to be a good OU pokemon"

... Is this not what we want?

Also, there's no telling what movepool this is going to get. The only thing that we DO know is that it will be getting the moves that Persistent affects. We know this because it was the desire of the original concept. There's no evidence that it will or will not be getting an instant recovery move, so don't talk like it already does. Also, if you're so against it getting an instant recovery move in tandem with Persistent, then voice your opinions when the Defensive Move Discussion comes out later on down the project line.
 
Indeed. and I really don't see why, even without pokédex explanation, the name doesn't fit the designs. What's a "Persistent" design, actually?
 
Vital Spirit

Along with its ground typing, Vital Spirit would make it nearly immune to the two status effects that would be most effective in stopping it from doing its job.
 
Hm... many pokemon have multiple abilities, one of which is used often and the other so much. If this has two, (I know it seems gimmicky, but...) I can see this thing having Technician as an option. Granted, thats not what most people would use it for, but it could be the random "useless" ability should others be too overpowering, or just a second option to another better trait.
 
well, i was thinking of this ability, and now i know that it would be great.
I'm not exactly sure what to call it, but i was thinking something along the lines of "clean sweep"
the effect of the ability would clear all weather conditions, and all of the hazards from you and your opponent. the purpose of this is that people usually like to start the game off with stealth rocks, so i thought this would be a good idea.
the thing about our pokemon if we give him this ability is that he won't be a super broken utility, rape your team pokemon.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top