<bugmaniacbob> so
<bugmaniacbob> if anyone wishes to lobby me on any important issue
<bugmaniacbob> speak now or forever hold your peace
<Pwnemon> i think that the pokemon should be more offensive
<Pwnemon> a good way i think to create risk is to have a lot of power but a shitty speed tier
<Pwnemon> or else a lot of speed, but meh power and STABs
<Pwnemon> more the former though
<jas61292> Depends on what you mean by shitty
<Pwnemon> genesect
<Pwnemon> all the things that either can ohko the other, it's slower than
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<jas61292> Honestly, Genesect has good speed. Its a troll speed, sure, but still good.
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<Pwnemon> jas you make an intriguing point
<Pwnemon> in your post
<Pwnemon> being able to threaten the opponent OR help your team but not both
<Pwnemon> is a very good risk factor
<Pwnemon> but again cape said he didn't want it to be about prediction
<Pwnemon> now don't ask me how you have risk, but no prediction
<bugmaniacbob> easy
<bugmaniacbob> you develop a strategy that is more complicated than the nearest equivalent
<Pwnemon> how is that "risky" though
<Pwnemon> at the end of the day, risk either comes down to probability or prediction
<bugmaniacbob> well, purely on the basis that it takes more thought to execute
<bugmaniacbob> certainly it's dependent on the use
<bugmaniacbob> *user
<Pwnemon> other than that, you may have a difficult to execute strategy but if you know you can do it, then you're not risking shit
<bugmaniacbob> but that's true of all risk
<Pwnemon> actually i take that back
<Pwnemon> maybe that is what cape meant
<Pwnemon> having a difficult to execute strategy that you can only pull off if you're really smart
<Pwnemon> i just don't like that direction personally :L
<bugmaniacbob> that's what my interpretation of it was
<Pwnemon> people will always go to the lowest common denominator
<bugmaniacbob> how does yours differ?
<Pwnemon> my definition of risk is doing something that you don't know will pay off but is the best viable option at the time
<bugmaniacbob> isn't that how all Pokemon is played
<bugmaniacbob> I don't see what that interpretation tells us, honestly
<Pwnemon> well, you'd have to maximize risk
<Pwnemon> make something that is less likely to pay off
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<Pwnemon> but has a bigger payoff if it does
<Pwnemon> in all honesty i'm probably a terrible person for this concept in general because i'm a conservative player
<Pwnemon> :L
<bugmaniacbob> but if there's always a most viable option
<bugmaniacbob> how is that any more a risk than, say, Blissey using Wish?
<Pwnemon> because when blissey uses wish, it is typically the "safer" option
<Pwnemon> while cape seems to think you can have a risky mon that still uses safe options
<bugmaniacbob> most viable = safer generally
<Pwnemon> that doesn't make any sense to me
<Pwnemon> no, bmb, not really
<bugmaniacbob> in terms of strict definitions, that's how most people would view it
<bugmaniacbob> relatively speaking
<Pwnemon> more viable = most likely to pay off
<SgtWoodsy> it's possible to make a viable risky pokémon
<SgtWoodsy> staraptor
<SgtWoodsy> i've been talking about him the enti
<Pwnemon> i guess i shouldnt use the term viable actually
<SgtWoodsy> re time
<bugmaniacbob> which is safer, relatively, than the closest alternative
<Pwnemon> let's say you have out a blissey at 40%
<bugmaniacbob> right
<Pwnemon> your opponent has a rotomw out and a scizor in the wings
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<bugmaniacbob> ohey
<bugmaniacbob> *okey
<Pwnemon> the safe option would be to wish, then protect and scout the scizor
<Pwnemon> however, the BEST option would be to use flamethrower, koing the scizor on the switch
<Pwnemon> that's how i view risk
<Pwnemon> it's not going to be the safest option but it pays off the best, and is thus the most viable
<bugmaniacbob> but in that case the most viable is also the safest
<Pwnemon> no
<bugmaniacbob> where most viable is the one most likely to generate a positive outcome
<Pwnemon> because the scizor remains, threatening your blissey with an ohko indefinitely
<Pwnemon> i guess i should not use "viable" if it's proving to be the stumbling block for my argument
<bugmaniacbob> yeah I'd advocate a change of words
<bugmaniacbob> something like... most rewarding?
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<Pwnemon> most rewarding, yeah that works
<bugmaniacbob> if you chose that, your argument makes more sense
<bugmaniacbob> although
<Pwnemon> typically, risk management is the art of balancing the most rewarding alternative with the one most liable to have a positive outcome
<Pwnemon> so, you'd have to weigh the advantages of wishing vs flamethrowering
<bugmaniacbob> right
<Pwnemon> i'd think a "risky business" mon would reward the people who would predict the opponent's moves and respond with the more rewarding alternative
<bugmaniacbob> but then, that's just risk inherent to every Pokemon as per user indecision
<Pwnemon> and punish those people who would opt for the safer option
<Pwnemon> the challenge lies in ensuring that we don't punish to the point that the safer option is no longer safer
<Pwnemon> which is why i don't think HO is the way to go
<bugmaniacbob> the safe option is no longer safer?
<bugmaniacbob> could you elaborate please? not sure I get it
<SgtWoodsy> a glass cannon maybe?
<bugmaniacbob> I am adamantly against glass cannons
<bugmaniacbob> that is, in my view, the easy way out
<Pwnemon> i just said "ho is not the way to go"
<Pwnemon> so i'm with bob here
<jas61292> I have no problem with Hyper Offense, but it is certainly not the only way to do this
<Pwnemon> bmb what i mean here is
<Pwnemon> if you have a blissey, with wish/protect, then obviously in that scenario, using flamethrower is the risky option
<bugmaniacbob> ok
<Pwnemon> but let's say that instead of a blissey with wish/protect, you've got a mence
<Pwnemon> and this mence happens to be a fatmence?
<bugmaniacbob> ok...
<bugmaniacbob> dunno why you'd use fatmence but sure why not
<Pwnemon> then there is no real downside to using flamethrower over wish/protect
<bugmaniacbob> unless said 40% fatmence is on the receiving end of a Thunderbolt
<bugmaniacbob> but I digress
<Pwnemon> okay yeah that was a bad example
<Pwnemon> screw it, no examples for me, i can't think of a good one
<bugmaniacbob> I would agree the happy medium we should be shooting for is between safer options being less used and their being unusable
<Pwnemon> yes, that's what i meant
<Pwnemon> when a safe option becomes so shitty that it's literally not even viable
<Pwnemon> we've fucked up
<SgtWoodsy> this sounds like a very fine line
<bugmaniacbob> well, to revisit your staraptor example
<bugmaniacbob> staraptor seems to hit the nail just fine
<Pwnemon> actually any subroost mon
<Pwnemon> with two attacks
<bugmaniacbob> true actually
<Pwnemon> is a great example of the risk/reward thing
<SgtWoodsy> i didn't even think of subroost
<SgtWoodsy> i just thought he was a good example because he's really strong but really suicidal
<bugmaniacbob> well, that is a valid way to look at it
<Pwnemon> sgtwoodsy were you talking about scarf set?
<bugmaniacbob> subroost is just a useful comparison because it incorporates both safe and risky options on the same set
<SgtWoodsy> any set really
<SgtWoodsy> yeahg
<SgtWoodsy> -g
<Pwnemon> i don't really see scarf set as risky
<Pwnemon> i mean, it is
<Pwnemon> any scarf is
<bugmaniacbob> LO and CB are definitely risky
<bugmaniacbob> largely because they're both on a timer
<Pwnemon> but it doesn't incorporate "safe options" to choose from also
<Pwnemon> it's straight prediction
<jas61292> I don't see why we want safe actions, honestly
<bugmaniacbob> yes but the point is the user made the conscious decision to use said suicidal maniac
<bugmaniacbob> over any safer wallbreaker
<Pwnemon> jas i'll take an example of fidgit
<jas61292> ^
<Pwnemon> you have a fidgit with ep/sr/wish/u-turn
<Pwnemon> it's a great example of having a wide gamut of safe to risky options on one set
<Pwnemon> your opponent has a xatu
<bugmaniacbob> then you had best hope you remembered to bring a Ttar
<Pwnemon> the obvious safe option is u-turn, but that's gonna do approximately nothing to better yourself
<Pwnemon> on the other hand, you could use Earth Power to try and smack the heatran he currently has in, in the hope he overpredicts, which is the riskiest option, but also the most rewarding
<jas61292> See, I agree that is a risky choice, but I any Pokemon can make a risky choice. That is what prediction is. That doesn't make Fidgit a risky Pokemon
<Pwnemon> but you could use wish as well, which, while heatran could take a chunk out if you stay in, is neither super risky nor super rewarding
<Pwnemon> i disagree
<Pwnemon> it's a great example of being risky, because it tends to punish the safe options, and reward the riskier options
<Pwnemon> we'd just have to take this to the extreme with cap4
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<bugmaniacbob> both interpretations are valid
<jas61292> Honestly though, anyone who has a check that outspeeds it but it can beat with prediction would be considered risky by that definition
<Pwnemon> not necessarily
<Pwnemon> now let's say you have a check, that outspeeds you and can beat you with prediction
<Pwnemon> but if you have scarf, you can outspeed them
<Pwnemon> also you resist their main STAB but are weak to their secondary STAB
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<Pwnemon> you can switch in and thus, bluffing a scarf, scare them out, and proceed to set up rocks
<Pwnemon> OR
<bugmaniacbob> I think the onus is now to provide an example where such a thing is not a risk
<Pwnemon> or set up QD or Gear Shift or any other greatly rewarding thingamajig
<bugmaniacbob> rather than more risky
<jas61292> I just personally see that as a risky strategy, not a risky Pokemon.
<Pwnemon> yes, but the goal would be to create a pokemon that maximizes such examples for risk
<bugmaniacbob> but that is dependent on the user, not the Pokemon
<Pwnemon> so that they are a common occurence: greatly rewarding when done right, and "well shit" when done wrong
<bugmaniacbob> any Pokemon can create a risky situation for itself
<Pwnemon> but you can't argue that some pokemon are more prone to risky play than others
<Pwnemon> arent*
<bugmaniacbob> possibly
<bugmaniacbob> but then that comes back to the same argument
<jas61292> Personally I think that is should be less of a case that it gets into a lot of risky situations, and more that the very nature of using it should be risky, which cannon be achieved by risky situations unless it gets into the 100% of the time.
<jas61292> *cannot
<bugmaniacbob> about how a Pokemon that gets itself into more risky situations is by definition more risky
<Pwnemon> but then you're basically either dependent upon team matchups to create the risk, jas
<Pwnemon> or else you're making a choice item user
<bugmaniacbob> and hence it is the user taking the risk by using the Pokemon in the first place
<Pwnemon> bmb, that's basically what i'm saying
<Pwnemon> a pokemon that only works well when the user takes risks
<jas61292> Not necessarily. Once again, I think Cloyster is the best example.
<bugmaniacbob> well, so long as we're on the same page about that
<bugmaniacbob> it's more that the use of the Pokemon IS the risk, rather than the Pokemon being risky to use
<bugmaniacbob> if you see the difference
<Pwnemon> okay now we're back off the same page
<bugmaniacbob> ok let me see if I can find an example
<bugmaniacbob> ok take Volcarona and er CM Keldeo, say
<bugmaniacbob> CM Keldeo is easier to set up but stopped by a large number of common threats
<bugmaniacbob> QD Volcarona takes half a team to give it the support it needs to set up
<bugmaniacbob> but by comparison, is checked by far fewer things
<Pwnemon> so would we be creating the pokemon analogous to the volc or the keldeo?
<bugmaniacbob> hence in this instance, Keldeo is the "safer and less rewarding" option
<Pwnemon> volc ok
<bugmaniacbob> and Volcarona is the "riskier but more rewarding" option
<bugmaniacbob> this is just one other way of looking at it, though
<Pwnemon> that's where our opinions differ, then
<Pwnemon> i feel that volc is no riskier than keldeo
<Pwnemon> in that once you get it in, you're basically on autopilot
<bugmaniacbob> that's the thing though
<Pwnemon> "qd > which of my moves is SE?"
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<bugmaniacbob> if we assume that this Pokemon doesn't exist in a vacuum
<Pwnemon> i feel like the "risky" mon should make you think about what button you hit, EVERY turn
<DarkSlay> Hi CAP.
<Pwnemon> for example, toxicroak
<bugmaniacbob> well
<bugmaniacbob> our two ideas don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive
<Pwnemon> using that mon is the highest level of mental fortitude
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<Pwnemon> but if you can get a couple of BUs, then TOXICROAAAAAAAAAK
<bugmaniacbob> see the thing is, prediction is just glorified guesswork
<Pwnemon> i'd have to disagree there
<bugmaniacbob> I think it was Scoopapa who said, this should be the work of the entire match
<Pwnemon> actually no i wouldn't
<bugmaniacbob> not in terms of single turns
<Pwnemon> prediction is glorified guesswork in the same thing scientific hypothesis is glorified guesswork
<bugmaniacbob> which I would personally agree with
<Pwnemon> hence me using the example of toxicroak
<Pwnemon> i think it embodies both types of prediction
<Pwnemon> or not prediction, risk even
<bugmaniacbob> well, toxicroak is a risky Pokemon to use, I'd agree
<bugmaniacbob> that doesn't necessarily make it interesting, but still
<Pwnemon> you have to win the weather war first, or at least play to the point that losing the weather war won't end your sweep
<Pwnemon> then, after you've solidified that gain, you have to get him in safely
<bugmaniacbob> Toxicroak is a bit of an odd case though
<Pwnemon> if he's in safely, with room to set up, now you have to use your moveset of sub/bu/drain punch/sucker punch at absolute peak performance in order to effectively sweep
<Pwnemon> but if you can get to a certain point, the game is YOURS
<bugmaniacbob> it basically solely exists in OU because it's very good against most of the stuff rain teams typically struggle against
<bugmaniacbob> the fact that it in itself is risky to use in OU notwithstanding
<bugmaniacbob> anyway
<bugmaniacbob> I am of the opinion that we should encompass as much as possible with CAP4
<Pwnemon> you're right there
<bugmaniacbob> in terms of risk
<bugmaniacbob> while excluding the uninteresting bits
<bugmaniacbob> if that means we can fuse two separate philosophies, I'm willing to try it
<Pwnemon> what exactly does "uninteresting bits" mean
<bugmaniacbob> mainly "oh noes stone edge hax"
<Pwnemon> oh yeah
<DarkSlay> "I know what's risky! Let's force it to use Focus Blast!"
<Pwnemon> probability has no bearing on this discussion
<bugmaniacbob> preciseky
<bugmaniacbob> *precisely
<Pwnemon> if we can fuse intensive team support risk with prediction once in risk
<Pwnemon> i will consider this project a 10/10
<Pwnemon> let's do it
<bugmaniacbob> hoorah for meaningful resolutions past midnight
<bugmaniacbob> the difficulty with the above, of course
<bugmaniacbob> is that ever-present "how"
<bugmaniacbob> or, more accurately, "how without resorting to defeatist"
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<Pwnemon> i almost want to say substitute abuse is a must
<bugmaniacbob> funny, I really like those two categories
<Pwnemon> but that's pigeonholing
<Pwnemon> there are other ways to do it
<Pwnemon> naked punching, for example
<bugmaniacbob> "intensive team risk" and "prediction once in risk"
<bugmaniacbob> naked punching?
<uwnim> Focus Punch with no sub?
<bugmaniacbob> oh right
<bugmaniacbob> well there are plenty of niche little risky moves if it comes down to that
<bugmaniacbob> there's um
<bugmaniacbob> Final Gambit
<bugmaniacbob> Stored Power
<bugmaniacbob> any others I can think of
<Pwnemon> those aren't really risky in the prediction sense
<bugmaniacbob> well, they're more risky in the team sense
<Pwnemon> in fact, final gambit is as far from prediction as you can get
<Pwnemon> yeah
<bugmaniacbob> although Final Gambit is a bit of a duff one in either case
<DarkSlay> What about something like a Cro- Pokemon?
<Pwnemon> final gambit just isn't something you build a team around though
<DarkSlay> Like CroCune?
<Pwnemon> a cro-mon is also risky in the intensive team care
<bugmaniacbob> Cro- pokemon don't really work any more
<DarkSlay> I consider that something that's very risky.
<Pwnemon> but yeah they kinda suck :L
<Pwnemon> new rest mechanics
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<Pwnemon> "new" as in two years old
<DarkSlay> Right, right.
<bugmaniacbob> wow was it that long ago
<bugmaniacbob> time flies
<bugmaniacbob> in the prediction sense, well
<bugmaniacbob> I suppose we've really just got FP, DM, and all the recoil moves
<bugmaniacbob> basically anything with a negative side-effect
<Pwnemon> sucker punch
<bugmaniacbob> and that
<Pwnemon> substitute
<bugmaniacbob> ...substitute?
<bugmaniacbob> isn't that the classic safe move?
<Pwnemon> it sounds counterintuitive
<bugmaniacbob> oh no wait
<Pwnemon> but substitute is one of the most prediction-riddled moves ever
<bugmaniacbob> protect is the classic safe move
<Pwnemon> yeah
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<bugmaniacbob> yeah especially if this thing has a large passive damage weakness
<bugmaniacbob> Substitute becomes much more risky
<bugmaniacbob> looking at stuff like DPP alakazam and what not
<Pwnemon> breloom is another mon that comes up that's prediction-heavy
<Pwnemon> doesn't have the team support aspect that i liked about toxicroak though
<bugmaniacbob> well, it needs the Celebi removed and so on
<bugmaniacbob> not quite so obviously, though, which is a shame
<Pwnemon> gen iv breloom was quite easy to slap on a team
<Pwnemon> in gen v, you're right, it's a bit better of an example
<bugmaniacbob> even in DPP it was quite prediction heavy
<Pwnemon> not until you'd dropped your Spore
<bugmaniacbob> the difference was it was more a team supporter itself than anything else
<Pwnemon> yeah
<bugmaniacbob> right, now I need to be going in a minute
<bugmaniacbob> so one last topic, for anyone who's interested
<bugmaniacbob> support.
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<Pwnemon> support was certainly an interesting pitch by jas
<Pwnemon> it sounds like it could definitely work
<bugmaniacbob> How many people would support a support-orientated riskmon?
<jas61292> me!
<Pwnemon> heh
<bugmaniacbob> agh no pun int. sorry agh
<Pwnemon> i'd prefer an offence-oriented mon
<Pwnemon> but i'd be happy with support too
<bugmaniacbob> good, good, apathy is always good
<bugmaniacbob> new question
<Pwnemon> we'd have to be careful not to let it slip away
<bugmaniacbob> how would people react to a Pokemon that had both Support and Offensive qualities
<Pwnemon> that's the only way to do a risky support
<jas61292> I think that could work well
<bugmaniacbob> by this I mean it could do either but not both
<Pwnemon> if we do defensive support i'm flipping a table
<bugmaniacbob> in the sense of Latios
<Pwnemon> no, it should be able to do both
<Pwnemon> to varying degrees
<bugmaniacbob> you have your Choice Specs and you have your DS + Memento
<Pwnemon> force switches with its offensive presence, in which time it's able to throw out rocks or screens or something
<Pwnemon> but if the opponent predicts the rocks or screens, then it can ko
<bugmaniacbob> that's a bit frail for my taste
<bugmaniacbob> I'm trying to think of other ways we could accomplish that
<Pwnemon> well i think cap could use a dosage of frail
<Pwnemon> after our first 3
<bugmaniacbob> well, we aren't giving this one a recovery move
<bugmaniacbob> bar rest
<Pwnemon> that's not entirely necessary
<Pwnemon> there's plenty of risky pokemon that use recovery
<bugmaniacbob> well, we'll see
<Pwnemon> for example, honchkrow in lower tiers
<Pwnemon> it just has to not have BULK + RECOVERY
<bugmaniacbob> zzz honchkrow
<Pwnemon> one or the other
<bugmaniacbob> In any case, I was wondering how frailty in the sense of "severe passive damage weak" might work
<Pwnemon> i really don't know
<Pwnemon> passive damage is one of the most reliable things in pokemon
<bugmaniacbob> because I want this to be able to switch in
<bugmaniacbob> if only once or twice
<Pwnemon> it certainly isn't about to catch you by surprise "oh shit i got stealth rocked where did that come from"
<Pwnemon> so basically, you better be damn sure you are switching in at the best possible time?
<Pwnemon> that could work
<bugmaniacbob> that's the idea
<Pwnemon> that could definitely work
<Pwnemon> http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4396944&postcount=47
<Pwnemon> lol just exactly what we're not doing
<bugmaniacbob> nice to know people read others' posts
<Pwnemon> to be fair you didn't really stress that probability was not the direction this concept would take
<Pwnemon> i didn't pick that up until we talked about it in chat
<bugmaniacbob> I am pretty sure I did
<bugmaniacbob> [but I will check just in case]
<bugmaniacbob> well I definitely said "we are focusing on X" where X was not "luck-management"
<bugmaniacbob> really it would only take a small amount of argument retrosynthesis to know what I meant
<bugmaniacbob> anyway, on frailty....
<bugmaniacbob> I really don't like the idea of it, if only because "Glass cannon lolol"
<bugmaniacbob> I feel like we could get away with something that has both a huge passive damage weakness
<bugmaniacbob> as well as a ton of common weaknesses
<Pwnemon> i'm not so averse to a glass cannon
<bugmaniacbob> well, that would mitigate any above-average defensive stats, perhaps
<Pwnemon> as long as the glass cannon isn't LO + 4 attacks
<Pwnemon> or Setup + LO + 3 Attacks
<bugmaniacbob> that is what the glass cannon would likely be though
<Pwnemon> not if it's too slow
<bugmaniacbob> I mean, if it's going to be KOed by a wrong prediction
<bugmaniacbob> Recover isn't exactly the move most conducive to survival
<bugmaniacbob> I mean, look at Alakazam
<Pwnemon> that's what i was saying
<bugmaniacbob> wouldn't a slow glass cannon be kind of um
<bugmaniacbob> horribly bad
<Pwnemon> it takes a lot of balls, and risk, to run recover on zam, and in the end it won't be worth it
<Pwnemon> slow glass cannons do work, actually
<Pwnemon> they're the most mindgamey of all pokemon
<DarkSlay> Unless it runs STAB priority.
<bugmaniacbob> such as what
<Pwnemon> yes, most do
<DarkSlay> Or Sub-based predictions on switches.
<Pwnemon> Technician Breloom, Honchkrow of all stripes, Toxicroak
<bugmaniacbob> I suppose there's Breloom
<SgtWoodsy> breloom
<bugmaniacbob> well, Breloom and Toxicroak both have significant passive recovery
<SgtWoodsy> has a 100% acc sleep move
<bugmaniacbob> oh wait Technician
<SgtWoodsy> and has really good priority
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<bugmaniacbob> I dunno if I'd classify Breloom as a glass cannon, honestly
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<Pwnemon> what is it then
<Pwnemon> it's definitely not bulky
<bugmaniacbob> it's not that frail and to be frank it isn't that strong either
<Pwnemon> pstats, breloom
-apathy.mi.us.synirc.net:@#cap- capefeather invited pstats into the channel.
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<Pwnemon> oh it wasn't in here?
<Pwnemon> pstats, breloom
<pstats> Breloom [Grass/Fighting] Effect Spore/Poison Heal/Technician (DW) | 60/130/80/60/60/70 | OU | GK/LK: 60 BP
<Pwnemon> 60/80/60 is pretty unbulky
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<bugmaniacbob> Breloom's typing gives it a good amount to switch in on
<DarkSlay> It's about the resistances.
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<DarkSlay> Waters fear it.
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<bugmaniacbob> I'd classify it as a supporting wallbreaker, personally
<Pwnemon> poison heal is, but not techloom
<bugmaniacbob> but regardless this is sort of departing from the point
<Pwnemon> yeah kinda
<bugmaniacbob> although
<bugmaniacbob> the point is raised that something with frail defensive stats can work if it has resistances to switch in on
<bugmaniacbob> conversely, something with higher defensive stats may not work as well if it finds it more difficult to switch in
<bugmaniacbob> be it through SR weak, few meaningful resistances, etc
<Pwnemon> cough rhyperior
<Pwnemon> cough
<DarkSlay> Typing is crucial.
<bugmaniacbob> well Rhyperior... yeah
<DarkSlay> I'm actually liking Rock typing for this, but that's just me.
<Pwnemon> it depends heavily on what role we choose for our mon
<jas61292> Rock/Ice. Lets do it. What is more risky than the most awful typing ever?
<bugmaniacbob> careful
<bugmaniacbob> you might resurrect RD
<jas61292> ahaha
<Pwnemon> i wish.. :(
<DarkSlay> Rock/Electric would be a very interesting typing if we're going to go offensive. It has some key weaknesses that need to be addressed by the team, namely Ground types, but that's more of the Breloom route.
<bugmaniacbob> thing is
<DarkSlay> Although, not sure if CAP wants another 4x Ground weak Pokemon.
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<bugmaniacbob> I kind of want this to be SR weak, if it isn't "defensively frail" as most would see it
<bugmaniacbob> in terms of the whole "one switch, make it count" thing
<uwnim> How SR weak?
<bugmaniacbob> so... Fire/Ice, anyone?
<jas61292> YES!!!!!!
<uwnim> That would be rather interesting
<bugmaniacbob> honestly I would love to make a 4x SR weak mon that didn't shamelessly try to cover it up
<DarkSlay> Well, if that's the case...
<bugmaniacbob> like Syclant
<DarkSlay> Bug might be the best way to go about that.
<bugmaniacbob> but Volcarona has sort of done that whole thing already
<DarkSlay> Bug/Electric would be decent typing to suggest.
<bugmaniacbob> in all seriousness, it probably shouldn't be more than a 2x weak if even that
<DarkSlay> Electric just seems to work so well so far.
<DarkSlay> lol
<bugmaniacbob> why Electric, out of curiosity?
<DarkSlay> It's a great second typing, since it only has one weakness and a few resistances. In the case of Bug/Electric, it negates the Ground. However, Bug's already weak to quite a bit on its own.
<DarkSlay> Fire, Rock, Flying, etc.
<bugmaniacbob> I guess
<DarkSlay> Plus, resisting some priority usually helps offensive Pokemon in general, which leans towards "medium defenses with key resistances".
<DarkSlay> Namely Bullet Punch.
<bugmaniacbob> hmm
<DarkSlay> Although Mach Punch/VWave is also resisted.
<bugmaniacbob> personally I liked the idea of Bug/Psychic
<bugmaniacbob> if only for six weaknesses
<bugmaniacbob> + SR/Pursuit/U-turn weak
<DarkSlay> Ugh. Get raped by TTar. :(
<bugmaniacbob> on top of a very good offensive STAB combo
<bugmaniacbob> Ttar doesn't want a Megahorn to the face
<jas61292> Not if it OHKOs TTar
<jas61292> yeah
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<DarkSlay> If it's faster.
<Pwnemon> hi birkal
<bugmaniacbob> how can anything not be faster than Ttar
<Birkal> hi
<bugmaniacbob> unless it's Scarf
<jas61292> Tyranitar is not exactly setting the bar high for speed
<bugmaniacbob> nobody likes Scarf
<jas61292> I do
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<DarkSlay> Well, we were discussing the possibility of making it slow.
<jas61292> I'll choice anything
<DarkSlay> :P
<DarkSlay> Also, how can it touch Steels with that STAB combo?
<DarkSlay> Just coverage.
<bugmaniacbob> Fire Blast
<DarkSlay> Not saying it's a bad thing.
<DarkSlay> o_o
<jas61292> Earth Power
<bugmaniacbob> or something idk
<bugmaniacbob> Hi Jump Kick
<uwnim> Heh
<jas61292> yes
<uwnim> No, no
<jas61292> I like it
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<Pwnemon> risk lol
<bugmaniacbob> that's a risk and a half
<Pwnemon> dontswitchtoghostdontswitchtoghost
<DarkSlay> "Hey let's force it to use Focus Blast! RISK!!!!!"
<jas61292> I just like the idea of a bug using HJK
<Pwnemon> lol
<bugmaniacbob> well to be fair HJK is sort of different since you will die if it misses without question
<bugmaniacbob> but yeah still hax