CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 9 - Attacking Moves Discussion

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#26
Actually, ANY move that has variable damage can be risky. for an encyclopedia of such moves, see below:

  • Acrobat: must not have an item to be usable, which is risky.
    Assurance: you must find a way to damage the target before Aurumoth moves.
    Avalanche: does more damage if Aurumoth is damaged on that turn, assuming it can take the hit.
    Bide: REALLY dangerous; in order to use this, Aurumoth must be damaged AND survive for two turns.
    Brine: doubles damage on a target with less than half its hp left.
    Counter, Mirror Coat, and Magic Coat: require proper timing and prediction.
    Echoed Voice: must be used consecutively.
    Electro Ball: must be used on an EXTREMELY slow target to be effective.
    Facade: Aurumoth must be suffering from status for this to work.
    Flail: does more damage when Aurumoth is at low health (if it doesn't get KO'd first).
    Fling: requires a specific item, usually with negative effects.
    Foul play: is only effective against high powered sweepers, who very well could KO Aurumoth before it has the chance to act.
    Heat Crash / Heavy Slam: ...Um no, Aurumoth is WAY too light.
    Hex: Does more damage to targets with status.
    Ice ball: doubles power every turn, but locks user.
    Low Kick / Grass Knot: only works on heavy targets.
    Natural Gift: requires Aurumoth to use berries.
    Psywave: deals random damage based off Aurumoth's level (lv 100).
    Punishment: does more damage if your opponent has more boosts (or this boosted pokemon could just sweep your team.)
    Pursuit: doubles on fleeing pokemon.
    Retaliate: only works effectively if a teammate has just been KO'd (can be used to revenge kill).
    Revenge: doubles if Aurumoth has been damaged on the same turn.
    Reversal: works effectively if Aurumoth is at low health.
    Rollout: doubles power every turn, but locks user.
    SmellingSalt: doubles on paralyzed target (but removes paralysis).
    Stored Power: the more Aurumoth boosts, the better this is.
    Trump card: the more it's used, the more damage it does.
    Venoshock: hits poisoned targets for double.
    Wake-Up Slap: doubles on sleeping targets (but removes sleep).
 
#27
As far as physical Fighting coverage goes, I'd allow only Cross Chop.

Close Combat and Superpower do add an element of "risk", but tbh I just see it as a way to completely open yourself up to Pursuit- that's not the sort of risk I think we should be taking- CAP4 should be rewarding us for making the correct decisions, not paying for it. The same goes for Hammer Arm, it just ruins the point of things by making you revengable by even more than you are initially and it doesn't support Weak Armor at all. I would support Brick Break, but its too weak to be justifiable as a coverage move.
 
#28
I would like the idea of having revenge as a move for Aurumoth. I think Revenge and Cross chop should be Aurumoth's only fighting moves. I feel this would work very well. Superpower and Close combat, frankly, open up far to great a weakness when used with weak armor. Revenge, on the other hand, could be used with weak armor quite effectively, at least initially, using revenge+weak armor to "set up" and when speed boosts are acquired abandoning the move in favor of some psychic/bug STAB.

Of course, none of that would be required as Aurumoth could simply use Cross Chop for reasons stated by meteor64

As far as physical Fighting coverage goes, I'd allow only Cross Chop.

Close Combat and Superpower do add an element of "risk", but tbh I just see it as a way to completely open yourself up to Pursuit- that's not the sort of risk I think we should be taking- CAP4 should be rewarding us for making the correct decisions, not paying for it. The same goes for Hammer Arm, it just ruins the point of things by making you revengable by even more than you are initially and it doesn't support Weak Armor at all. I would support Brick Break, but its too weak to be justifiable as a coverage move.
 

MCBarrett

i love it when you call me big hoppa
#29
Why is U-turn disallowed? I think it really has to be on there. It is a great example of risk vs. reward on cap4. Switching in and out is going to be very risky with the stealth rock weakness but on the other hand its a decently strong attack with stab and 120 base attack and it can provide momentum that can help win the match. maybe i'm missing something but i can't see a single reason for disallowing it.
 
#30
Why is U-turn disallowed? I think it really has to be on there. It is a great example of risk vs. reward on cap4. Switching in and out is going to be very risky with the stealth rock weakness but on the other hand its a decently strong attack with stab and 120 base attack and it can provide momentum that can help win the match. maybe i'm missing something but i can't see a single reason for disallowing it.
Because it allows you to get out of dangerous situations with barely any consequences.
 
#31
continuing on form lazy last post-

Concerning Special Fighting coverage, I agree with Focus Blast 100% (no pun intended) over Aura Sphere for previously mentioned reasons.

The Fire coverage move should be, in my opinion, Heat Wave, as opposed to Flamethrower, for minor flavour purposes. Yes, I know flavour is irrelevant, but for the most part so is the difference between the two moves, especially when we have No Guard as an option. Heat Wave is a move spread to Pokemon with wings, where as Flamethrower isn't (unless STAB). Just my opinion.

Hydro Pump/Surf is a no. The thing about having Fighting/Fire options for coverage is that they achieve a sense of duality (heh, de ja vu) between Skarmory/Bronzong and Heatran, in that you can't check them all with one set unless you go 4 attacks. Water moves in conjunction with rain would break that. There wouldn't be a real reason to use the other coverage moves. Thunder I have similar issues with, but Thunderbolt is fine in my book.

Ground coverage moves wouldn't see a lot of use IMO. Why try and hit a (possibly floating) Heatran and lose out on covering Skarm when you can hit both for decent damage with Fighting coverage?

Thats about everything for now.
 
#32
First, I really like jas' argument on the dilemma achieved by putting some of Aurumoth's coverage options into select physical or special categories. I have some different views on the particulars but this is worth pursuing more.

As far as fighting moves go, I think that Superpower, Cross Chop, Focus Blast and maybe Revenge should be allowed, but Close Combat and Aura Sphere should be disallowed. Focus Blast and Cross Chop available would give Aurumon's No Guard sets reliable Fighting coverage whether physical or special, whereas sets without No Guard would either have to put up with their accuracy or take the risk that Superpower and Revenge present (I could see Choice sets opting for those especially).

Close Combat, if allowed, would leave Aurumon just as vulnerable to death from priority or Scarfed revengers (which hurt it quite badly anyway) except it allows for a sustained sweep that Superpower wouldn't, while trading what? -1 stage SDF? When it already can't survive a decently powered special move? That's like no downside at all.

As for Aura Sphere - if it's absent from the movepoll, then Aurumon will have a difficult choice to make when not picking No Guard Focus Blast: either run the weaker Hidden Power Fighting, OR turn to physical Fighting coverage OR use other coverage moves. In this case, I'm against Aura Sphere because by simply existing it makes other choices less viable; in this instance, less (great moves) is more (interesting choices) for us.

On the subject of its Water coverage, I'd personally see it with Aqua Tail allowed but Surf and Hydro Pump disallowed. Yes it scores a nice neutral hit on Skarmory then, but will it be enough when hitting its stronger Defense stat? That's where things start getting interesting (and I know it has imperfect accuracy, but it's nowhere near the 70 limit, and it's one more small buff to No Guard that way).

For its allowed Fire moves, I'd say allow Heat Wave and Overheat (yay for more imperfect accuracy) but disallow Flamethrower and Fire Blast. Overheat in particular, when left alone as Fire coverage (as in the case of Rotom-A) poses interesting dilemmas: the Fire move is available and can be key, but can its SAT drop be managed or is it better to turn to different coverage with more manageable risks?

For Ground... hmmm. I'm indifferent on Earthquake but I'd say allow Earth Power. Special Ground coverage with its important overlap with Fighting means that if Aurumon gets Focus Blast but no Aura Sphere, it might want to run Earth Power to hit most of the same (Steel) targets (but lose to Skarmory and Bronzong). But for this interaction Earth Power needs to be in its movepoll first.

For Electric moves I'm fine with allowing both Thunderbolt and Thunder. these achieve a nice middle ground and decent coverage with Aurumon's two STABs, but also have an entire type immune to them to balance it out.

.... and that's as far as the current moves for discussion let me comment; >.> Alright, that's it then.
 
#33
I don't think U-Turn should be disallowed - as I see it the consequence of getting the 'safe' switch-out is having to lose 25% of your health next time you come in - that's a pretty dangerous trade-off for the switch out aspect.

There's also the fact that U-Turn has great synergies with Illusion, but you have to work hard to keep Stealth Rock off the field for the biggest benefit.

Edit: Gerard has already said it much more clearly than me
I think U-turn should be allowed, it's a good STABed move coming from a 120 Atk, yes, but this also comes from a pokemon weak to every form of damage, and actually, I would venture to say it's one of the, if not the, least useful users in OU, Aurumoth doesn't have the switch in opportunities, nor the defensive typing and powerful priority/coverage that Scizor and Genesect have, both which do the revenge a lot better. It's vulnerable to Spikes unlike Tornadus-T, Landorus or Hidreigon and due to being SR weak, and vulnerable to all forms of damage you might be taking a good chunk of your health just by switching in, so using it is a risk in the way that you could not be switching in again, and not even doing enough damage to make the whole thing worth it.

It's also an interesting option for an Illusion set, since you might lure an unsuspected check and remove it so a latter mon can sweep, and something to move it under Genesect/Scizor's shadow. Choiced sets might use it too, but Gene is probably better there.
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bugmaniacbob

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#34
Actually bob it's relevant because if we make it Male Only from the Dream World, then the DW ability cannot get egg moves.
Most fifth gen event mons have the DW ability don't they? So could be relevant for Psycho Boost.
See, the implication of my post was more "hahaha, no, that's not happening."

We have a perfectly good ability triality, which I will not permit to be screwed over by ability illegalities. Move illegalities are fine, but to restrict the options of one ability to favour the others when they all already have their inherent strengths runs counter to my intentions with this CAP.

Likely you were joking regardless, but I feel this message ought to be clear for anyone who may get the wrong idea.

Anyway I feel I ought to address some other mildly peculiar posts

- Seriously, don't try to start discussion on moves that aren't labelled as being up for discussion. That's annoying and unhelpful. You'll get your chance later, once the important stuff is done.

- Don't just post random lists of "risky moves". That's not even vaguely helpful. Even more puzzling is when these moves include that are automatically disallowed (V-create... what?) or not even competitive (Bide, really?). Remember that "risky Pokemon" =/= "give it lots of random risky moves". We learnt that lesson with Kitsunoh, as per giving lots of moves to a Pokemon that could be used a certain way does not mean they will be used that way, or even at all.

So that's that. Please don't continue this trend.

------

Before I begin to address this I'd like to reiterate some things that we all need to remember:

- Aurumoth should function well as a physical sweeper
- Aurumoth should function well as a special sweeper
- Aurumoth should function well as a mixed attacker

And by "function well", we repeat what we said in concept assessment: No counters, but plenty of checks. I think what a lot of people seem to be forgetting at the moment is that a) we're not that fast and b) we're not really that strong either. Hydreigon cannot sweep, but it can at least switch in multiple times, and has an easily spammable STAB attack. Aurumoth will likely be far more limited with regard to lifespan, and if the Kyurem-B testing in OU is any indication, even the mightiest of defensive stats aren't much good if your typing leaves you susceptible to common attacking types.

This is a difficult topic to address as I can see that different sides have their own priorities, which are hard to reconcile. As with the stat spreads, I can see the relative merit of both. So, I'll start with what I think everyone can agree on (or rather, that I myself am personally convinced of).

Fire-type coverage

In terms of sweepers, Aurumoth gets three more or less perfect 3-move combinations - Bug/Psychic/Fighting, Bug/Psychic/Water, and Bug/Psychic/Electric. As such, there is really no need to place any focus on Fire-type attacks as essential reliable coverage attacks. On the other hand, a Fire-type move would be extremely useful on 4-move attacker sets, for the purpose of removing Scizor, Genesect, Forretress, Jirachi, and whatever else takes your fancy. As such, I am going to come down on the side of Allowing Overheat and Disallowing Flamethrower / Fire Blast. I like the idea of forcing the use of a risky move, particularly one that has so much potential for reward at the same time. I don't think there is any real argument against this, or rather, I have not seen a convincing one in this thread yet.

Physical Fighting-type attacks

As previously mentioned, CAP4 needs to be threatening on the physical side. It also needs to be able to sweep, which merits a consistent coverage attack. Cross Chop does not deliver in this regard, particularly on non-No Guard sets. As such, the need arises for a more powerful coverage attack, particularly if physical or mixed sets are to be expected to compete with purely special sets. Ergo, I think Close Combat will be Allowed, and by extension, Superpower, Hammer Arm, Cross Chop, and Brick Break will also be Allowed, as they are far less competitively viable than Close Combat overall, so there is no need to disallow them.

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Now, controversial stuff.

The special coverage: Focus Blast, Hydro Pump, Thunder

As I said before, the three of these represent a large part of Aurumoth's movepool diversity in its ability to have different but perfectly viable coverage attacks on its hypothetical 3-attack sets, each of which confers specific advantages. For example, Focus Blast deals with the blobs after a boost or two, meaning that Aurumoth can run Psychic with less worry. Hydro Pump, on the other hand, deals with Gliscor and Hippowdon, and as such, Aurumoth can quite happily run Psyshock. What advantage does Thunder grant? Well, none in terms of coverage, but it does have the advantage of, in rainy conditions, being 100% accurate irrespective of No Guard, meaning that it can be run with other abilities with just as much, if not more, effectiveness, without the fear of missing. This triumvirate is important as it represents a large portion of Aurumoth's teambuilding-based risk, or being able to do the same thing in different ways.

Now, I can see that there are some who dislike one or the other of these. Some of these arguments I sympathise with, others I don't. Different people have different builds in mind and all of them are perfectly legitimate, which makes it difficult to arbitrate between them. As such I think it is appropriate to say that all of Focus Blast, Aura Sphere, Hydro Pump, Surf, Thunder, and Thunderbolt will be Allowed. None of these is individually overpowering and none has overwhelming synergy with the others, as they all hit the same targets, but give minor differences in their usage. This is a large contrast to, say, the choice between Fire or Ground as a typical Steel coverage attack, wherein the use of one move hits half for high damage and the other half not as effectively, but here, all moves hit for reasonable damage and are sufficiently highly powered to make a significant impact after a boost, whatever that boost may end up being. I highly doubt that any of them is at all overpowered on their own, and all of them provide coverage that is helpful in a particular combination.

Remember that if you yourself disagree with a particular move's inclusion on this Pokemon's movepool, you have the right to exclude those moves (unless, of course, I specify them as being required, which I am not going to do for any coverage moves). There is no objective competitive or conceptual reason for disallowing any of the above, and there are multiple ways to achieve the objective - as such, I cannot disallow a particular arrangement in that sense. Also, remember that we have movepool limits - likely as not it will be impossible to fit all of these onto a movepool in any case.

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The Outliers

Last but not least, we have Earthquake and Earth Power. These are pretty much strictly inferior to Fighting-type moves in this case on the basis of weaker synergy with Bug and Psychic, so there's not really that much reason to not allow them. Thus, Earthquake and Earth Power are Allowed. As for Aqua Tail, I'm not entirely sure of it as of yet. On the one hand it is pretty much always better than Close Combat inside rain, but at the same time is much weaker outside of rain. I intend to add it to the Pending list along with the newer moves, and hopefully we can get a tad more discussion on it.

Oh and um, U-turn. No, that isn't going to work. As far as minimising safe options goes, U-turn is only ever going to be used if it provides a safe option, which is very rarely going to be the case here, especially when you could be using Scizor or Genesect. It isn't necessary, and I can see Aurumoth having to switch in and out pretty often regardless. As far as the principle of the matter goes, I have removed U-turn, Volt Switch, recoil and healing moves on principle alone, not competitive merit. Their only possible effect on a movepool is detrimental to the concept and as such they are not worth even entertaining the thought of.

And now, on to the next topic

Next up, two things.

a) Aqua Tail and any other physical sweeper coverage you could care to mention

b) Coverage for Dragon-types.

I'll give a head start on b) since you probably already have your own opinions on a). Here we have three forms of coverage - Rock, Ice, and Dragon itself. Rock-type attacks are only really useful for Dragonite, possibly Kyurem, and to an extent Salamence (who is destroyed by Psychic-type attacks anyway, really). Hydreigon and Lati@s die to any STAB Bug attack, and Haxorus can't take a Psychic-type attack happily. On the other hand, they may prove useful against miscellaneous threats such as Volcarona and Gyarados. I'm leaning towards disallowing these as they don't have any particularly great benefit other than giving physical sets something else to mess around with, but there's nothing very broken about them. On the other hand, Ice-type attacks such as Blizzard and Ice Beam pair extremely poorly with Bug and Psychic, so are no use at all on sweeping sets, but on the other hand are useful for their ability to crack Dragonite, who is otherwise a very nasty threat indeed, and who so far has not been addressed outside of "chuck a Psychic at it and hope for the best". I don't really see these as broken either, but as with Rock-type attacks, their applications are limited; only here, we have a way to annihilate a very common, very powerful threat, but not much aside from that, whereas with Stone Edge, a number of noteworthy checks are covered, but not in any absolute way. As for Dragon-type moves, I hate them and will disallow them all I'm not entirely sure exactly what the appeal behind them is, as far as solely being useful for hitting Dragon-types is concerned. More to the point, I don't think it's a good idea to be encouraging neutrality - all of Aurumoth's moves should ideally be of typings where it is entirely possible and easy to do very little damage to something as a result of a misprediction, but a great deal of damage if one predicts correctly - hence an emphasis on Fire-, Ice-, and Fighting-type coverage.

I think that's everything I wanted to say, anyway. Carry on.
 
#35
@Silent: Flavour is not our concern here. Gastly can learn the elemental punches, Rhydon can learn Surf and Emboar can learn Scald. It's just not a good justification system.

With as much attack as this Moth has, i am very weary about giving it the likes of Earthquake, Close Combat and Cross Chop. Their greater power and lower reward seems to just be giving it too perfect a coverage for no downside. Super Power and Hammer Arm though make it very difficult to use continually and force you to predict a bit more (high risk, high reward). As far as Ground type coverage, i'd like to see Bulldoze as an option, as it pairs really nicely with the moth's average speed. I have no arguement against Brick Break either.

On the special side, Fire Blast also seems too powerful without it's accuracy cap. I personally don't want to see this thing get a fire typ move, but Flamethrower, Heat Wave and Overheat are all arguable at least. Focus Blast seems like it makes sense for the No Guard set, and its not horribly broken on faster Psychic types anyway, and while i'd really like Aura Sphere as well, it detracts from Risk vs reward, so i would motion against that. Earth Power i'm just not a huge fan of. I feel like this thing is going to become a mixed scarfer/LO sweeper pretty quick here and just having Focus Blast with 100% accuracy and its Stabs will already be ripping through teams of slower Pokes without it.

Hydro Pump and Thunder i am absolutely against. We already have several CAPs that are great under Rain, which is the least risky team style in the metagame IMO. Making this thing a mixed Krillowatt should be avoided at all costs. Thunderbolt I don't really care about though. The drop in power and paralysis chance make it a good coverage move that isn't going to break the Pokemon. Surf i still don't like though. Pokemon that get surf as a coverage move can easily sit in Rain and basically hit with 3 STABs and a coverage move, and Bug/Psychic/Water has pretty good neautral coverage (Empoleon is the only resist coming to my head). If this thing gets a Water move, i'd hope it'd be restricted at Water Pulse, which is usable with the right set build (although really only Jirachi fits that role now).

Well, really bad timing for my post eh? Man this thing got rediculous amounts of coverage to it. Ugh. Anyway, Aqua Tail really doesn't matter now with Hydro being legal, so my as well, As far as Dragon coverage, I'd be against any of the mainstream ones (Draco, Outrage, Claw and Pulse) because the risk is just too worth the reward. Dragon Rush would be the only one i'd allow, since it forces a specific ability to use truly effectively. As for Ice type moves, i'd hope we could stray away from them. This thing has no Pokemon that can switch into its coverage better than neutral at this point, with a lot more mixe stats than most Pokemon who can boast the same. It already hits every Dragon neautral, and Rock support wrecks most of them anyway. I don't see the need for Ice Beam or Blizzard by any means.
 
#36
Hydro Pump/Surf is a no. The thing about having Fighting/Fire options for coverage is that they achieve a sense of duality (heh, de ja vu) between Skarmory/Bronzong and Heatran, in that you can't check them all with one set unless you go 4 attacks. Water moves in conjunction with rain would break that. There wouldn't be a real reason to use the other coverage moves. Thunder I have similar issues with, but Thunderbolt is fine in my book.
I feel that this was ignored somewhat. In rain you have effectively 3 STABs with complete neutral coverage on everything you are ever likely to see, all coming from the same attacking stat, which will more than likely be fully invested. That to me seems a little bit ridiculous. This isn't Kyurem-B, who has huge offense but no movepool (and consequently can't 2HKO everything it likes)- CAP 4 is going to have options, and while we want to be able to threaten everything, we do NOT want to do it with 3 moves. Sub + 3 attacks, for example, would just be ridiculous, not to mention completely unrisky once its in.

I'm still on the fence about Thunder. Sp. Def Heatran can wall it I guess, but I just imagine it being coupled with Rain and just rendering Tran inefficient anyway, not to mention the likely paralysis you'll get from throwing Tran at it.

That said, I'm not opposed to Physical Water coverage. Aqua Tail is the move currently up for discussion, but I'd also like to suggest Razor Shell as a possibility for fulfilling added utility in being able to help CAP4 deal with Skarm and other Steels through Defense drops. Plus, it seems more flavourtastic (yes it is irrelevant, I know). I'm not trying to start discussion on this yet but I want it to be considered for later.
 
#37
I'd allow Dragon Rush simply because one wouldn't see it outside of No Guard and disallow other Dragon-type moves in that they're not promoting the hit-soft-or-hard ideal mentioned earlier. They're too neutral, really, and one could easily slap a Fighting-type move and a boosting move alongside more reliable Dragon-type moves to just simply not care about its other coverage moves. At least with Dragon Rush, we get a little-used move that becomes stuck exclusively in one set, a benefit considering that most of our low-accuracy moves are special, meaning that No Guard Aurumoth will almost always win against opposing Aurumoth.

Aside from the obvious problem regarding flavor, I'd disallow Aqua Tail in that it doesn't doesn't provide anything for physical Aurumoth save another STAB in rain. It can take out Fire and Ground-types, given, but the former are likely to fry Aurumoth in an instant while the latter usually have the physical defense to survive unboosted Aqua Tail to the point of not really having competitive merit. Chances are that if one is using Aurumoth in the rain in the first place, it will do so with Hydro Pump and Thunder anyway, again foregoing a purpose for Aqua Tail. It's not broken by any means, but its inclusion is, again, unwarranted in inclusion and questionable in significance.
 
#38
Should Phazing moves (like Dragon Tail or Circle Throw) be allowed? Surely they are very risky (because of priority -6 and randomized choice), but they can work pretty well if used right.
 
#39
I am for allowing Superpower and Hammer Arm and disallowing Close Combat
I believe Close Combat is too safe compared to Superpower and Hammer Arm. Those two are basically the definition of risky moves. With Close Combat you can use it a lot and still be pretty safe.With the others you need to use it sparingly.
 
#40
Should Phazing moves (like Dragon Tail or Circle Throw) be allowed? Surely they are very risky (because of priority -6 and randomized choice), but they can work pretty well if used right.
Those are under the non-damaging moves, since without either STAB or Technician their power is negligible, being used mainly because forcing switches, not power
 
#41
Kay, i have no idea what i was thinking at the time.

Anyway, I'd say no Dragon moves. The only risk behind them is that your opponent will switch in a steel-type. The same could be said for Ice moves, but those are resisted more, and are a lot more rewarding if played correctly, which falls into the risk vs. reward description quite nicely. Supporting this is the fact that CAP4 will most likely end up suffering from 4 moveslot syndrome, so in order for it to have reliable coverage against dragons, it would have to replace another one of it's coverages (which is also risky). So Ice Beam and Blizzard should be allowed.
On the topic of Aqua Tail, CAP4 should function well as a physical sweeper, but it would have no physical water coverage without Aqua Tail, so it is definitely more than just "flavor".
Not sure about Stone edge, but if allowed, it would give CAP4 the EdgeQuake combo, which should be considered.
 

bugmaniacbob

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#42
I dislike having to reply directly to people to reinforce points already made but since I'm a nice guy

I feel that this was ignored somewhat. In rain you have effectively 3 STABs with complete neutral coverage on everything you are ever likely to see, all coming from the same attacking stat, which will more than likely be fully invested. That to me seems a little bit ridiculous. This isn't Kyurem-B, who has huge offense but no movepool (and consequently can't 2HKO everything it likes)- CAP 4 is going to have options, and while we want to be able to threaten everything, we do NOT want to do it with 3 moves. Sub + 3 attacks, for example, would just be ridiculous, not to mention completely unrisky once its in.
Dunno where you were during Concept Assessment but yes we did actually decide we wanted to be able to threaten everything with three moves (albeit only when boosted, but then that's true of Hydro Pump anyway). Kyurem-B isn't quite relevant since it doesn't exist in the metagame we're designing for (I only brought it up for analogy's sake) but it can still 2HKO absolutely everything in the metagame - the only reason it /can't/ sweep teams is because it is slow. And Aurumoth is slower than Kyurem-B. More to the point, it has quite as bad a defensive typing - six weaknesses is no joke, and high defensive stats, as has been demonstrated, isn't saving you from most of the attacks of Pokemon currently in OU. Sub+3 attacks? You want to add Substitute damage on top of Stealth Rock, Spikes, and possibly sandstorm? Things look even worse when you add Life Orb to the mix - because without Life Orb, your power overall is... well, not nearly as threatening as Sub Hydreigon or Sub anything really.

I am for allowing Superpower and Hammer Arm and disallowing Close Combat
I believe Close Combat is too safe compared to Superpower and Hammer Arm. Those two are basically the definition of risky moves. With Close Combat you can use it a lot and still be pretty safe.With the others you need to use it sparingly.
I don't understand why people seem to think that all the moves this Pokemon has must necessarily be risky - it is already hard to switch in, hard to set up, and easy to revenge kill. Why must we then make certain that every move it has has the potential to backfire on it? Close Combat is the closest thing that physical sweepers have to a reliable coverage move - without it, we might as well just be rid of physical sweeping entirely and call it a day.

Continuez.

Also EIA EIA ALALA SEPHIMOTH etc.
 
#43
What Legend13 said about Aqua Tail is true, that without it (or perhaps Waterfall, or Razor Shell?) Aurumon's physical sets would have no physical Water coverage to turn to. Plus, with Hydro Pump and Surf already allowed, and potentially Rain-boosted, Aqua Tail will be a lesser option anyway, won't it? Why not go ahead and allow it then?

As for Rock Slide and Stone Edge, I don't feel strongly about them either way, although I must admit Cross Chop + Stone Edge would combine awesomely on the No Guard physical attacker. I don't think the coverage will break Aurumon - it has so many other threats it should prepare for... so, might allow these and leave it up to movepoll creators to include them or not.

Ice Beam and Blizzard I think will be fine too, as even with access to BoltBeam coverage Aurumon gets STAB on neither and would have to give up something to obtain a boost (or run a Choice item). They'll be handy for nailing Dragons and other x4 weak targets, but there are also many resists (Steels, and especially Heatran x4 resists) so usually most teams will carry something they can demolish and something that can take the hit and fight back. I'm fine allowing them, with maybe some physical Ice coverage to go for the physical Aurumon too (I'm thinking Icicle Crash and maybe Avalanche at the moment).

As for the Dragon coverage, much as I am a fan of Dragon Rush, I must say disallow all Dragon moves. Their neutral coverage offered is simply too good on a mon who should resort to beating its checks through careful move selection and fine-tailored coverage.
 
#44
One move I'd like to bring up that hasn't been yet is Extremespeed, which is pretty valuable for Aurumoth because it beats Sucker Punch to the, well, punch and 120 Base Attack is more than Arcanine and Lucario, meaning it would actually be a competent user. We haven't really discussed priority in general here, with potential options also being Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, Mach Punch, and Vacuum Wave.
 

jas61292

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#45
On the topic of other physical coverage, I would basically like to stick with what I said in my first post that we should keep types of coverage to one side of the spectrum or the other. Since we already have access to fighting and ground physical coverage, I see little reason to give it Aqua Tail or similar moves. They are mostly outclassed by the stronger fighting moves, and all they really do is add a bit of unpredictability. While I don't want Aurumoth to be too restricted in its movepool, we should remember that there is risk in predictability. Being unable to have that move up your sleeve to beat a niche check is a disadvantage compared to some other similar Pokemon. While taking it away does not stop it from having great coverage, it can make it more risky due to the lack of surprise factor in the movepool. Seeing as the three abilities already give us plenty of surprise to work with, I don't think we should keep piling it on. While it would not be awful to allow physical water moves, I personally feel we would be better without them.

As for other types, I really see no reason to restrict Rock or Dragon moves. Rock provide almost no additional coverage with what we already have, and Dragon is almost always useless as a non STAB move. While with water coverage you could keep near perfect neutral coverage in exchange for unpredictability, with these two, the only thing you get in exchange for using them is a worse moveset. The could possibly see use on a 4 attack set such as with a Choice Band, but otherwise they are just not all that useful, so there is little reason not to allow them.

Now, specifically when talking about coverage for opposing Dragons, I see little reason to restrict our coverage. We already hit every single Dragon for at least neutral with our STABs alone. As with Rock and Dragon moves, Ice would see very little use outside a 4th move when perfect neutral coverage is already attained, so I can't really see why we should restrict these. That being said, when it comes to specific moves, my opinion on Blizzard is the same as my opinion on Focus Blast. All it is really doing is providing unnecessary power to No Guard sets. As I firmly believe that the reward of No Guard should be reliability and not Power, I would prefer to see any special Ice coverage be limited to Ice Beam.
 
#46
As they add nothing of great value to the move pool that isn't outclassed by other coverage options, I would lean towards Allowing Dragon Type Moves. Out of all the dragon type moves, the only ones that are ether powerful enough, or useful enough are Outrage, Draco Meteor, and Dual Chop, and the first two are arguably outclassed by Close Combat/Megahorn and Psychoboost respectively. Dual Chop on the other hand, may find a niche for breaking subs. It isn't used often because the only users of it in OU, Garchomp and Haxorus, usually prefer dragon claw because of its 100 accuracy. A neutral Dual Chop is weaker then a once resisted Megahorn, and it doesn't improve the upon our STABs neutral coverage. The only notable threat that it hits better than other coverage, is Dragonite when multiscale is intact. It could break subs, and could find a niche if we were to include it, (especially if it wound up being the only multi-hit move in the move pool), but is too weak to use for coverage. So even if no other Dragon type moves are allowed, Allow Dual Chop.

As for physical water coverage, while I keep changing my mind on it, at the moment I am for allowing Aqua Tail, Razor Shell, Waterfall, etc. because of the extra unpredictably they add to the move pool. A wider move pool can, at least in theory, aid Illusion by carrying some moves that what it's disguised as is/could. I don't know if extending the bluff would be useful or not, but that's a risk we could test out.
 

Rowan

The professor?
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#47
One move I'd like to bring up that hasn't been yet is Extremespeed, which is pretty valuable for Aurumoth because it beats Sucker Punch to the, well, punch and 120 Base Attack is more than Arcanine and Lucario, meaning it would actually be a competent user. We haven't really discussed priority in general here, with potential options also being Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, Mach Punch, and Vacuum Wave.
Just chipping in to say are priority moves really a good idea? The risk behind weak armour is that it trades defense for speed, which makes it much more vulnerable to priority attacks. If you gave it extremespeed or other priority moves it would remove a lot of this risk imo.

Also, I agree with jas about not making it's movepool too varied. This would only make it easier to bluff other pokemon with illusion and thus reduce risk because it won't be as predictable.
 
#48
I've been noticing a lot of posts regarding Aurumoth's special movepool, but apart from fighting and ground coverage, very few about a physical movepool. I agree to the reasoning behind not allowing U-Turn, but that leaves it with only STAB Megahorn, because psychic doesn't really have good physical moves. I think Extremespeed would allow it to fill out it's physical and mixed sets, as after using a stat dropping moves (Overheat, Pscho Boost, Close Combat or whatever else might be chosen) it would have to immediately switch out due to being too easily revenge killed. I don't think this makes it "risky", it makes it a sitting Ducklett.

Giving it a priority move would allow it to stay in for another turn and do something, rather than always having to immediately switch out.

If it doesn't have good niche moves for a mixed set, we'll end up seeing most sets just be all special, wasting it's Atk stat.

Risk doesn't mean debilitating it's potential.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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#49
Commenting on the so-called "obvious" stuff for now. On the controversial stuff later. I don't 100% agree. One difference.

Fire-type coverage

In terms of sweepers, Aurumoth gets three more or less perfect 3-move combinations - Bug/Psychic/Fighting, Bug/Psychic/Water, and Bug/Psychic/Electric. As such, there is really no need to place any focus on Fire-type attacks as essential reliable coverage attacks. On the other hand, a Fire-type move would be extremely useful on 4-move attacker sets, for the purpose of removing Scizor, Genesect, Forretress, Jirachi, and whatever else takes your fancy. As such, I am going to come down on the side of Allowing Overheat and Disallowing Flamethrower / Fire Blast. I like the idea of forcing the use of a risky move, particularly one that has so much potential for reward at the same time. I don't think there is any real argument against this, or rather, I have not seen a convincing one in this thread yet.
I quite agree. The only argument against this is flavor, and that's not a valid argument. Even so, before anyone attempts to bring it up, Primeape learns Overheat by TM without Flamethrower or Fire Blast. So it's been done before, and ergo is totally ok to do again. I personally advocate against Overheat being included, but I certainly think Overheat should be allowed.

Physical Fighting-type attacks

As previously mentioned, CAP4 needs to be threatening on the physical side. It also needs to be able to sweep, which merits a consistent coverage attack. Cross Chop does not deliver in this regard, particularly on non-No Guard sets. As such, the need arises for a more powerful coverage attack, particularly if physical or mixed sets are to be expected to compete with purely special sets. Ergo, I think Close Combat will be Allowed, and by extension, Superpower, Hammer Arm, Cross Chop, and Brick Break will also be Allowed, as they are far less competitively viable than Close Combat overall, so there is no need to disallow them.
Personally, I find Close Combat's drops in defense alone to be the wrong risk for Aurumoth. I think Superpower's drop in Attack, Hammer Arm's drop in Speed, Cross Chop's inaccuracy, and Brick Break's weakness are all adequate issues. The defense drop, however, rarely is an issue towards spamming Close Combat. After all, the -Def gotten is the same from Superpower, and Special priority is such a non-issue for Aurumoth, since it quad-resists the non-existant anyway Vacuum Wave. Therefore, Close Combat's drops are just less relevant and would always be used over Superpower. Therefore, Disallow Close Combat but allow all the others.
 

ZhengTann

Nargacuga
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#50
I'm all for giving it ExtremeSpeed. Deck has given his reasons, which I thought is veritable, but I'm not as sure about the other priority moves. Espeed allows us to take on basically any priority users that doesn't resist normal (which means Scizor is unchecked with this one) again. Speaking of Scizor (and other Bug/Steels or Ferrothorn to an extent), I suddenly realized that having Overheat as our only move against them will be quite detrimental for us. Maybe we can allow Fire Blast, since Flamethrower would be the safer move anyway with those stats?

Water moves are probably some of the safest moves around in OU meta. They basically provide redundant neutral coverage - what with Aurumoth's dual-STABs - while at the same time providing crucial SEs against Rock, Ground, and Fire-types, which either threaten Aurumoth if they can score a hit, or are prominent attackers in their own right to be able to check Aurumoth in return. So I'm ambivalent towards it - on one hand, we've already have so many Allowed moves, on the other, there's always the movepool submissions.

Going through the Dragon's, we basically need the likes of Ice-type moves if we were to be able to check the likes of Intimidate Salamence. Yet, I'd rather give it Icicle Spear than Icicle Crash - Spear already has enough base power to give Dragon's another thought, and Aurumoth's base 94 Speed means it won't likely be outspeeding and flinching with Crash (not when its an OHKO, anyway).

By the way, I'm in support of jas too - giving Aurumoth too much coverage is not a good idea. I'm in favor of giving it different typing coverage in physical and special spectrum, though, for what it's worth.
 
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