I definitely agree with you on Oblivious, seeing as Attract has little to no competitive viability, but I would actually argue that Own Tempo could actually be fairly beneficial to CAP5 with the right move set. Regarding movepool, if CAP5 receives either Outrage or Petal Dance, it could be a fairly potent Choice Scarf sweeper, which could not be achieved with Harvest since you'll need to hold a Berry. If Own Tempo is picked, I would bet that these moves would be considered. But I see where you were coming from on these attacks regarding other Pokémon's moves upon CAP5. :)
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CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion
- Thread starter Birkal
- Start date
- Status
If we're going with Berries or 1 use items I'd like to suggest Unburden as it's !Surprise! secondary ability.
With a sudden jolt to speed it could be just the boost it needs to take care of a fast watery threat that thinks to go for the 2HKO with Ice Beam, or the Terrakion that just can't get the job done with 1 X-Scissor (stats spread still pending of course).
Edit: OK, stat spread no longer pending! So what would something with 55 Base Speed outspeed at +1, enough to be useful?
With a sudden jolt to speed it could be just the boost it needs to take care of a fast watery threat that thinks to go for the 2HKO with Ice Beam, or the Terrakion that just can't get the job done with 1 X-Scissor (stats spread still pending of course).
Edit: OK, stat spread no longer pending! So what would something with 55 Base Speed outspeed at +1, enough to be useful?
A fully invested Pokémon with base 55 Speed (252 Spd EVs, +Spd Nature) at +1 has a 343 Speed stat.
This allows it to outrun all Pokémon that are at a base 105 Speed without any boosts, max investments.
That includes Pokémon like:
Pokémon / Base Speed / Investment / (Boosts if Applicable)
Landorus 101 +Spe 252
Jirachi 100 +Spe 176
Heatran 77 +Spe 252
Politoed 70 +Spe 252
Latias* 110 Neutral 0
Gliscor 95 Neutral 72
Vaporeon 65 Neutral 128
I highlighted the few that I thought were kinda cool to outspeed, with the others as a reference point. Politoed and uninvested Latias are definitely things to consider about Unburden.
I do have an extra suggestion to throw in, if I may.
Now that we know the stat spread of this Pokemon, notice that it has only 55 Speed. If we are outspeeding so few Pokemon (for example Ferrothorn), then I believe the ability Analytic would be a solid choice. With this, we turn CAP5 into a Scizor of sorts. With all of its moves' base powers increased by 30%, we can establish a slow but hard-hitting tank of a Pokemon. It also allows CAP5 to wield a Choice Band and run a Brave nature, which so few Pokemon run in OU like having as a Nature (Ferrothorn can viably have it but most players give it a Sassy nature).
Assuming that Analytic is CAP5's secondary ability, and CAP5 gains the following moves, and is equipped with a Choice Band:
Wood Hammer becomes a 351 Base Power move.
Leaf Blade becomes a 263 1/4 Base Power move.
Horn Leech becomes a 219 3/8 Base Power move.
Crunch becomes a 234 Base Power move.
Faint Attack becomes a 175 1/2 Base Power move.
The thought of a slow, tankish Pokemon receiving power like this can be terrifying, but with Scizor having similar power with STAB Technician Bullet Punch and Bug Bite, as well as the fact that Analytic only works when you move after your opponent means tells me that it can be an even trade.
On top of this, I don't see this ability interfering with the premise of how Harvest works. With Harvest, we're forced to work with a Berry, but Harvest does allow CAP5 to have more staying power as a physical tank. With Analytic, I am proposing that we give it a secondary ability that does not overshadow the usefulness of Harvest while at the same opening up a new path for those who dislike Harvest *raises hand*.
Now that we know the stat spread of this Pokemon, notice that it has only 55 Speed. If we are outspeeding so few Pokemon (for example Ferrothorn), then I believe the ability Analytic would be a solid choice. With this, we turn CAP5 into a Scizor of sorts. With all of its moves' base powers increased by 30%, we can establish a slow but hard-hitting tank of a Pokemon. It also allows CAP5 to wield a Choice Band and run a Brave nature, which so few Pokemon run in OU like having as a Nature (Ferrothorn can viably have it but most players give it a Sassy nature).
Assuming that Analytic is CAP5's secondary ability, and CAP5 gains the following moves, and is equipped with a Choice Band:
Wood Hammer becomes a 351 Base Power move.
Leaf Blade becomes a 263 1/4 Base Power move.
Horn Leech becomes a 219 3/8 Base Power move.
Crunch becomes a 234 Base Power move.
Faint Attack becomes a 175 1/2 Base Power move.
The thought of a slow, tankish Pokemon receiving power like this can be terrifying, but with Scizor having similar power with STAB Technician Bullet Punch and Bug Bite, as well as the fact that Analytic only works when you move after your opponent means tells me that it can be an even trade.
On top of this, I don't see this ability interfering with the premise of how Harvest works. With Harvest, we're forced to work with a Berry, but Harvest does allow CAP5 to have more staying power as a physical tank. With Analytic, I am proposing that we give it a secondary ability that does not overshadow the usefulness of Harvest while at the same opening up a new path for those who dislike Harvest *raises hand*.
Unburden does not raise speed +1. It raises it +2.
CAP5 would not need to run any notable speed for Unburden to outspeed those threats.
Indeed, an uninvested neutral nature CAP5 hits 292 speed after the Unburden boost, good enough to outrun Jolly Mamoswine or Adamant Kyurem-B. And that's uninvested. With 112 EVs we outspeed non-Scarf Keldeo. With the full 252, we outspeed Adamant ScarfRachi and (most) Jolly ScarfLandorus-T.
Personally, I think Unburden is not an irrelevant ability even when compared to Harvest. We should not go forward with Unburden.
CAP5 would not need to run any notable speed for Unburden to outspeed those threats.
Indeed, an uninvested neutral nature CAP5 hits 292 speed after the Unburden boost, good enough to outrun Jolly Mamoswine or Adamant Kyurem-B. And that's uninvested. With 112 EVs we outspeed non-Scarf Keldeo. With the full 252, we outspeed Adamant ScarfRachi and (most) Jolly ScarfLandorus-T.
Personally, I think Unburden is not an irrelevant ability even when compared to Harvest. We should not go forward with Unburden.
I believe for this ability to not over shine Harvest, but also not be hijacked onto other weather teams, it needs to be a sun related ability. For these reasons, I believe Leaf Guard is the best option. It maintains one of the main purposes of Harvest, while granting CAP5 the option of running a different item.
Blackhawk11
one on one
Unburden is definitely overshadowed by Harvest. Since Unburden's boost disappears forever once CAP5 is switched out, Unburden is primarily useful for sweepers. With 100 Base Attack, (and no SpA at all) CAP5 is not in any position to be sweeping (unless it gets Swords Dance or something, but didn't Aurumoth teach us anything?), and therefore it couldn't make long term use of Unburden.
Despite that, I don't think Unburden would be useful at all. It's not like you can switch in on a Lati@s and immediately be faster. You would have to switch in and (presumably) activate a elemental gem on your first turn, then get a Speed boost, and then you would outspeed Lati@s. By that time, your opponent has switched out to Heatran or another CAP5 counter and you can't make use of your speed. Useless, imo.
I'm throwing my support behind Leaf Guard and Infiltrator.
Despite that, I don't think Unburden would be useful at all. It's not like you can switch in on a Lati@s and immediately be faster. You would have to switch in and (presumably) activate a elemental gem on your first turn, then get a Speed boost, and then you would outspeed Lati@s. By that time, your opponent has switched out to Heatran or another CAP5 counter and you can't make use of your speed. Useless, imo.
I'm throwing my support behind Leaf Guard and Infiltrator.
Full support for Leaf Guard! Leaf Guard has merit only in sun teams, so it doesn't promote the use of the CAP in other types of teams. We shouldn't give to the CAP any ability that is even remotely helpgul outside of sun, because it will raise, even by a little, the CAP's viability outside of sun, something that we don't want.
Leaf Guard is nice for sets that want to use Leftovers and can even be used in a set with Sunny Day + Synthesis for reliable recovery and status immunity. It's not that hard to keep sun up against Politoed anyway, thanks to Sunny Day Ninetales, so the CAP would still enjoy status immunity for a big period of time. Leaf Guard would also be the ability of choice to more offensive sets that prefer LO or choice items, and even if those sets will be rare, it is ok for them to have a slightly useful ability.
So, Leaf Guard doesn't overshadow or over-anything Harvest (except for offensive sets, which imo will be rare and don't even need to be taken account for), while helping the CAP to fulfill its role better, which is to switch into Water-types and the dreaded Scald. Finally, it doesn't encourage the use of the CAP outside of sun, which is exactly what we want, unlike other abilities that have been proposed here, such as Water Veil, Natural Cure, and Thick Fat. We should not give to the CAP an ability that has practical use outside of sun!
Aside from Harvest i would go for ineffective ability instead of no ability, as most Pokemon without Levitate and non-legendaries have at least two abilities. I consider as ineffective, abilitites that have a small use theoretically, but in practice never help (Own Tempo, Infiltrator, Pickpocket, Oblivious).
Leaf Guard is nice for sets that want to use Leftovers and can even be used in a set with Sunny Day + Synthesis for reliable recovery and status immunity. It's not that hard to keep sun up against Politoed anyway, thanks to Sunny Day Ninetales, so the CAP would still enjoy status immunity for a big period of time. Leaf Guard would also be the ability of choice to more offensive sets that prefer LO or choice items, and even if those sets will be rare, it is ok for them to have a slightly useful ability.
So, Leaf Guard doesn't overshadow or over-anything Harvest (except for offensive sets, which imo will be rare and don't even need to be taken account for), while helping the CAP to fulfill its role better, which is to switch into Water-types and the dreaded Scald. Finally, it doesn't encourage the use of the CAP outside of sun, which is exactly what we want, unlike other abilities that have been proposed here, such as Water Veil, Natural Cure, and Thick Fat. We should not give to the CAP an ability that has practical use outside of sun!
Aside from Harvest i would go for ineffective ability instead of no ability, as most Pokemon without Levitate and non-legendaries have at least two abilities. I consider as ineffective, abilitites that have a small use theoretically, but in practice never help (Own Tempo, Infiltrator, Pickpocket, Oblivious).
I feel Unburden would be counterproductive to CAP 5 since it was made clear that the role intended was to be a defensive pivot, not a bulky sweeper. The stat poll proves that, since Birkal's lower tier speed spread won the majority. Also giving it Unburden gives CAP 5 potential to be run in teams outside of Sun, another thing we do not want. This same sentiment also applies to Analytic which, while I think is advantageous given the stat spread and help us eliminate the targets we want to beat, will somewhat encourage it to be used outside of sun teams.
I agree that Leaf Guard would be a prime ability for CAP5. I'm not going to restate all the reasons other people have said, but I do have one little problem with it. If the point of this ability is to allow CAP5 to run a different set than a Harvest mon could do, supposedly more offensive (Choice Band, Life Orb, Expert Belt, etc.), we will have to restrict from giving it much coverage so that it doesn't become offensive rather than defensive.
All I'm saying is that we should be careful during the movepool stage if we go this route.
All I'm saying is that we should be careful during the movepool stage if we go this route.
I like the ideas of Lead Guard and Inflitrator. Overgrowth would also be a very safe option, and anyone leaning toward "no/ineffective second ability" should consider it. It's far to situational and risky to successfully make it the centerpiece of a pokemon's strategy, and in sun it's still inferior for all of CAP5's intended purposes.
For anyone willing to talk about something a little more risky, I'd like to mention Wonder Skin since we're mostly talking about abilities that have to do with status. I think it's an interesting ability, but it's never really seen the light of day in standard play because neither of the viable Pokemon that have it (Venomoth and Sigilyph) need it. Would it give players too much incentive to shoehorn CAP5 into a purely offensive role or use it outside of sun?
For anyone willing to talk about something a little more risky, I'd like to mention Wonder Skin since we're mostly talking about abilities that have to do with status. I think it's an interesting ability, but it's never really seen the light of day in standard play because neither of the viable Pokemon that have it (Venomoth and Sigilyph) need it. Would it give players too much incentive to shoehorn CAP5 into a purely offensive role or use it outside of sun?
I would like to discuss an ability that I believe will help CAP 5 do its job even when it is running Harvest as its ability. That ability is Klutz.
A Pokemon that is as heavily reliant on its held item as CAP 5 must be very careful of losing its item. There is no need to fear berry-loss from Bug Bite or Incinerate, as the former is probably going to OHKO and the latter is rarely seen and I can't see that changing just to combat CAP 5 (who has no business staying in on most of its users anyway). Knock Off is an interesting move that is worth fearing, but none of the Pokemon we truly want to counter (Politoed/Lati@s) learn it. The move that Klutz helps us combat is also the most common item-stealing move; Trick.
Both Latias and Latios learn Trick, which is most commonly seen on a Latios Choice set. A Choice item, Specs in particular, would be crippling for CAP 5 and Klutz provides a way to discourage Latios using Trick as it may be holding any number of nasties (status orb, Lagging Tail/Iron Ball, etc.) and the exchanged Choice item will have no effect. The real beauty of this ability is that as long as CAP 5's ability is kept secret Latios is forced to second-guess whether to Trick or not, resulting in Harvest CAP 5 retaining its berry.
To summarize, I propose Klutz, as an ability that helps CAP 5 achieve its goals without even being used, provided it is used often enough as a surprise tactic to be a believable threat.
Edit: A more limited version of this strategy could also work with Immunity or Water Veil.
A Pokemon that is as heavily reliant on its held item as CAP 5 must be very careful of losing its item. There is no need to fear berry-loss from Bug Bite or Incinerate, as the former is probably going to OHKO and the latter is rarely seen and I can't see that changing just to combat CAP 5 (who has no business staying in on most of its users anyway). Knock Off is an interesting move that is worth fearing, but none of the Pokemon we truly want to counter (Politoed/Lati@s) learn it. The move that Klutz helps us combat is also the most common item-stealing move; Trick.
Both Latias and Latios learn Trick, which is most commonly seen on a Latios Choice set. A Choice item, Specs in particular, would be crippling for CAP 5 and Klutz provides a way to discourage Latios using Trick as it may be holding any number of nasties (status orb, Lagging Tail/Iron Ball, etc.) and the exchanged Choice item will have no effect. The real beauty of this ability is that as long as CAP 5's ability is kept secret Latios is forced to second-guess whether to Trick or not, resulting in Harvest CAP 5 retaining its berry.
To summarize, I propose Klutz, as an ability that helps CAP 5 achieve its goals without even being used, provided it is used often enough as a surprise tactic to be a believable threat.
Edit: A more limited version of this strategy could also work with Immunity or Water Veil.
There's only three paths for the secondary ability that we should pick from: the ability to check a niche set e.g. Dual Screen or Trick Scarf, mimicking the pseudo-status immunity provided by Harvest and the final path being no secondary ability/ineffectual ability.
If we were to opt for an ability to check a niche set abilities such as Infiltrator and Klutz would fulfil this roll adequately, albeit for different reasons. Infiltrator allows CAP5 to bypass screens put up by Lati@s and allow for a quick kill. Klutz allows CAP5, in essence, an immunity to Trick. These Trick sets could pose problems for the standard harvest set, however, by having Klutz the 'tricker' could be easily dealt with the appropriate STAB of choice (unless it happens to be Jirarchi who tricked you). Klutz is not the ideal ability however it has its merits.
There are plethora of abilities that provide immunity from status; the abilities I specifically want to bring up include: Immunity, Leaf Guard and Insomnia. I have neglected to mention Water Veil as a part of this list because as stated previously CAP5 would have zero repercussions for switching into Scalds for a Sand team. Immunity allows CAP5 to spin better against teams that use Toxic Spikes. Although Insomnia seems powerful it is not. For two reasons, one: sleep is an uncommonly used status in OU and two: the most common users are either threatened by CAP5 (Gengar) or would destroy CAP5 should it stay in for a second turn (Breloom). Leaf Guard is an interesting ability that protects CAP5 from status during the sun, like safeguard. It is essentially a poor-mans version of Harvest+Lum, however, it would let CAP5 use another item outside a berry.
Considering the clauses for the secondary ability that I listed in the beginning CAP5 probably doesn't need an competitive secondary ability (or one at all) as Harvest does pretty much what we want the secondary ability to do, albeit with a different item. Should CAP5 have a secondary ability is should be Leaf Guard or Infiltrator because the situations in which they would be used prove more beneficial than other options I have listed, however, I would be equally fine with CAP5 having an ineffectual secondary ability/no secondary ability.
If we were to opt for an ability to check a niche set abilities such as Infiltrator and Klutz would fulfil this roll adequately, albeit for different reasons. Infiltrator allows CAP5 to bypass screens put up by Lati@s and allow for a quick kill. Klutz allows CAP5, in essence, an immunity to Trick. These Trick sets could pose problems for the standard harvest set, however, by having Klutz the 'tricker' could be easily dealt with the appropriate STAB of choice (unless it happens to be Jirarchi who tricked you). Klutz is not the ideal ability however it has its merits.
There are plethora of abilities that provide immunity from status; the abilities I specifically want to bring up include: Immunity, Leaf Guard and Insomnia. I have neglected to mention Water Veil as a part of this list because as stated previously CAP5 would have zero repercussions for switching into Scalds for a Sand team. Immunity allows CAP5 to spin better against teams that use Toxic Spikes. Although Insomnia seems powerful it is not. For two reasons, one: sleep is an uncommonly used status in OU and two: the most common users are either threatened by CAP5 (Gengar) or would destroy CAP5 should it stay in for a second turn (Breloom). Leaf Guard is an interesting ability that protects CAP5 from status during the sun, like safeguard. It is essentially a poor-mans version of Harvest+Lum, however, it would let CAP5 use another item outside a berry.
Considering the clauses for the secondary ability that I listed in the beginning CAP5 probably doesn't need an competitive secondary ability (or one at all) as Harvest does pretty much what we want the secondary ability to do, albeit with a different item. Should CAP5 have a secondary ability is should be Leaf Guard or Infiltrator because the situations in which they would be used prove more beneficial than other options I have listed, however, I would be equally fine with CAP5 having an ineffectual secondary ability/no secondary ability.
Hmm Klutz with Switcheroo could make for some interesting scenarios.
The ole Lagging Tail trick...
The ole Lagging Tail trick...
As RivRivRiv said, losing it's item is something that CAP5 will want to avoid.
Instead of taking Klutz I think a good Secondary Ability would be Sticky Hold. It has the advantage of defending against Trick without totally neutering the held Berry's effectiveness. It also protects against Bug Bite/Incinerate/Knock Off but those are less common threats and in the case of Bug Bite, losing your Berry isn't going to be the problem. Sticky Hold is never going to replace Harvest as the ability of choice, but it does provide flexibility for niche situations such as gaining CAP5 a free move if Latias attempts to Trick.
Instead of taking Klutz I think a good Secondary Ability would be Sticky Hold. It has the advantage of defending against Trick without totally neutering the held Berry's effectiveness. It also protects against Bug Bite/Incinerate/Knock Off but those are less common threats and in the case of Bug Bite, losing your Berry isn't going to be the problem. Sticky Hold is never going to replace Harvest as the ability of choice, but it does provide flexibility for niche situations such as gaining CAP5 a free move if Latias attempts to Trick.
I am also supporting Thick Fat as our Secondary Ability for CAP5.
Let's take a look at what Thick Fat brings to the table for us. Although we lose the berry abuse that harvest gives us, neutering two of our weaknesses at no apparent cost is a huge boon to helping CAP5 acheive it's intended goals. While we want to create a mon to increase Sun's usage, this will help against the people who will randomly slap coverage moves onto their mons in an attempt to hit CAP5 for super effective damage.
By reducing our Fire and Ice weaknesses, we gain the opportunity to switch into more common rain Pokemon like Starmie, Politoed, Latios, Keldeo and Thundurus-T just to name a few. Most of these Pokemon carry and Ice-type move more often than not, be it Ice Beam, HP Ice or Icy Wind in Keldeo's case. This way we can take on rain better than not. Just a small bit of trivia, Ice Beam is Starmie's 2nd most used move; it's STAB move of choice Surf comes in barely 4th on only 40% of all Starmie used in Feburary. Therefore, I feel that being able to switch into Ice moves better will help us acheive our concept, which is to neuter rain while boosting sun.
Starmie: Rapid Spin 80.095% | Ice Beam 72.175% | Thunderbolt 53.460% | Surf 39.253% | Hydro Pump 34.338% | Recover 27.075% | Psychic 21.871% | Thunder 18.496% | Psyshock 17.836% | Scald 16.228% | Other 19.173%
Politoed: Ice Beam 66.279% | Scald 51.393% | Perish Song 45.111% | Toxic 43.246% | Hydro Pump 41.986% | Protect 40.183% | Focus Blast 35.146% | Hidden Power Grass 22.836% | Encore 15.330% | Surf 12.763% | Hypnosis 7.836% | Other 17.892%
Keldeo: Secret Sword 96.183% | Hydro Pump 73.815% | Surf 60.938% | Hidden Power Ice 45.973% | Calm Mind 30.420% | Icy Wind 25.851% | Hidden Power Electric 14.150% | Hidden Power Ghost 11.652% | Substitute 10.951% | Rain Dance 4.597% | Scald 4.415% | Hidden Power Grass 3.308% | Other 17.746%
Just a few examples. Notice how HP Ice AND Icy Wind appear in Keldeo's set too.
But what about the Fire resist? Won't that help us switch into sun too? Well, if you think about it, most of the fire-type users in sun have an option to hit CAP5 for super-effective damage anyway, bar Heatran, although Heatran would most likely come out on top all of the time vs CAP5 anyway. Volcarona can use Bug Buzz to immediately destroy us, Victini can hit us just as hard with U-Turn and we can't switch into physical fire-types anyway because of our stat spread. It might help us to take HP Fires from the likes of Latios better... and, that's a bonus in my opinion, as Latios is seen more commonly on Rain teams than on Sun teams. Latios is one of the main Pokemon we are aiming to beat anyway, so if we have a better shot at it I feel that it'd be better for us.
Just a small nitpick; Unburden loses it's speed boost if we switch out.
Let's take a look at what Thick Fat brings to the table for us. Although we lose the berry abuse that harvest gives us, neutering two of our weaknesses at no apparent cost is a huge boon to helping CAP5 acheive it's intended goals. While we want to create a mon to increase Sun's usage, this will help against the people who will randomly slap coverage moves onto their mons in an attempt to hit CAP5 for super effective damage.
By reducing our Fire and Ice weaknesses, we gain the opportunity to switch into more common rain Pokemon like Starmie, Politoed, Latios, Keldeo and Thundurus-T just to name a few. Most of these Pokemon carry and Ice-type move more often than not, be it Ice Beam, HP Ice or Icy Wind in Keldeo's case. This way we can take on rain better than not. Just a small bit of trivia, Ice Beam is Starmie's 2nd most used move; it's STAB move of choice Surf comes in barely 4th on only 40% of all Starmie used in Feburary. Therefore, I feel that being able to switch into Ice moves better will help us acheive our concept, which is to neuter rain while boosting sun.
Starmie: Rapid Spin 80.095% | Ice Beam 72.175% | Thunderbolt 53.460% | Surf 39.253% | Hydro Pump 34.338% | Recover 27.075% | Psychic 21.871% | Thunder 18.496% | Psyshock 17.836% | Scald 16.228% | Other 19.173%
Politoed: Ice Beam 66.279% | Scald 51.393% | Perish Song 45.111% | Toxic 43.246% | Hydro Pump 41.986% | Protect 40.183% | Focus Blast 35.146% | Hidden Power Grass 22.836% | Encore 15.330% | Surf 12.763% | Hypnosis 7.836% | Other 17.892%
Keldeo: Secret Sword 96.183% | Hydro Pump 73.815% | Surf 60.938% | Hidden Power Ice 45.973% | Calm Mind 30.420% | Icy Wind 25.851% | Hidden Power Electric 14.150% | Hidden Power Ghost 11.652% | Substitute 10.951% | Rain Dance 4.597% | Scald 4.415% | Hidden Power Grass 3.308% | Other 17.746%
Just a few examples. Notice how HP Ice AND Icy Wind appear in Keldeo's set too.
But what about the Fire resist? Won't that help us switch into sun too? Well, if you think about it, most of the fire-type users in sun have an option to hit CAP5 for super-effective damage anyway, bar Heatran, although Heatran would most likely come out on top all of the time vs CAP5 anyway. Volcarona can use Bug Buzz to immediately destroy us, Victini can hit us just as hard with U-Turn and we can't switch into physical fire-types anyway because of our stat spread. It might help us to take HP Fires from the likes of Latios better... and, that's a bonus in my opinion, as Latios is seen more commonly on Rain teams than on Sun teams. Latios is one of the main Pokemon we are aiming to beat anyway, so if we have a better shot at it I feel that it'd be better for us.
Just a small nitpick; Unburden loses it's speed boost if we switch out.
I'm also hopping on the Thick Fat bandwagon.
Thick Fat, really, does little, which makes it just do more. Halving Ice and Fire is a small perk, as it basically makes those types merely neutral; however, it's as reliable as a berry without needing a berry. This would eliminate the need to carry a berry on Ice-proof Water counter sets. However, it's not like people would throw it around like candy: if you're seriously switching into a Fire or Ice type with a Dark/Grass, it's kind of obvious. However, Harvest is still superior: LumRest (what I have come to know as HarvRest in my mind), SweeperLum, SitrusStall*, Type Resist for Bug, what have you. No, Thick Fat just opens up a small niche option, and makes CAP 5 a wild card. Also, for the reasons Yilx stated above, it still works out of Sun, but is much better in it, a là Harvest, though not as direct.
If I could pick another ability as Thick Fat wasn't an option, I'd pick Sticky Hold. A Trick immunity throws off anyone Switcherooing to get a berry off, but it's just as effective on non-Sun and even Rain teams.
*I once got a Harvest SitrusStall Berry Tropicus in a random battle, and it completely destroyed the opposition in sun, while the battle was previously controlled by my foe with all the power and OUs (3 of them!) it could want. Just telling you this to further yourbrainwashing convincing that Harvest will always be superior.
Thick Fat, really, does little, which makes it just do more. Halving Ice and Fire is a small perk, as it basically makes those types merely neutral; however, it's as reliable as a berry without needing a berry. This would eliminate the need to carry a berry on Ice-proof Water counter sets. However, it's not like people would throw it around like candy: if you're seriously switching into a Fire or Ice type with a Dark/Grass, it's kind of obvious. However, Harvest is still superior: LumRest (what I have come to know as HarvRest in my mind), SweeperLum, SitrusStall*, Type Resist for Bug, what have you. No, Thick Fat just opens up a small niche option, and makes CAP 5 a wild card. Also, for the reasons Yilx stated above, it still works out of Sun, but is much better in it, a là Harvest, though not as direct.
If I could pick another ability as Thick Fat wasn't an option, I'd pick Sticky Hold. A Trick immunity throws off anyone Switcherooing to get a berry off, but it's just as effective on non-Sun and even Rain teams.
*I once got a Harvest SitrusStall Berry Tropicus in a random battle, and it completely destroyed the opposition in sun, while the battle was previously controlled by my foe with all the power and OUs (3 of them!) it could want. Just telling you this to further your
I feel like if any ability is going to net it use on sand, it'll be Thick Fat. With Thick Fat, it becomes the ultimate water counter for anything not named Keldeo. Resistance to water STAB, electric and grass coverage, neutrality to ice and bulk through the roof would make it a better Lanturn, Jellicent, or Gastrodon, and with leftovers now an option to help mitigate sand damage, sand teams would love it, especially if it gets rapid spin.
The main problem I have with Leaf Guard is that the main status likely to afflict it (besides self inflicted sleep) is burns from switching into Politoed scalds. That's part of the main focus of the CAP, after all; to switch into Politoed, force it out, and let Ninetales back in. But by doing that, you lose leaf guard's protection, and if one the over 50% of politoeds (according to Feb's usage stats) who run scald get a little lucky, well, there goes any offensive pressure you keep on the Latis or toed. CM Latias isn't even 2HKOD by burned CAP 5 crunch unless rocks are up and it's got max attack investment and LO (And hoping it doesn't stall you with sub/recover). You can't even rest off the burn, since Leaf Guard nips that trick in the bud. I feel like if we're going to go Leaf Guard, may as well go No secondary ability/no competitive ability.
The main problem I have with Leaf Guard is that the main status likely to afflict it (besides self inflicted sleep) is burns from switching into Politoed scalds. That's part of the main focus of the CAP, after all; to switch into Politoed, force it out, and let Ninetales back in. But by doing that, you lose leaf guard's protection, and if one the over 50% of politoeds (according to Feb's usage stats) who run scald get a little lucky, well, there goes any offensive pressure you keep on the Latis or toed. CM Latias isn't even 2HKOD by burned CAP 5 crunch unless rocks are up and it's got max attack investment and LO (And hoping it doesn't stall you with sub/recover). You can't even rest off the burn, since Leaf Guard nips that trick in the bud. I feel like if we're going to go Leaf Guard, may as well go No secondary ability/no competitive ability.
Is that supposed to be in support or opposition of Thick Fat as an ability? Since either way the CAP is at least accomplishing its goal of decreasing the viability of water typed pokémon and rain teams.
If The ability functions in both sand and sun teams and is lackluster compared to alternatives on a rain team, then doesn't that mean the CAP is just working as intended?
Honestly, I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced by any of these abilities. The niche benefits of Leaf Guard, Infiltrator, Sticky Hold, Synchronize, etc. sound cool and all, but is that really worth burning off this ability slot? Is it worth making the artists deal with something they might not be prepared for, just for some very specific niche? I mean, sure, art is a distant second priority in a competitive discussion, but I'm bringing it up to demonstrate just how pointless I think most of these abilities are.
If we have to pick a competitive secondary ability, then Sticky Hold and Synchronize seem like the best bets to me. Sticky Hold exists mainly to block Trick, which is used on about 22% of all Latios, and which would cripple a Harvest variant of CAP 5. Synchronize is a weird one, but I'm mainly interested in it because of Tentacruel. While a sun team does tend to have Will-O-Wisp and/or Lava Plume, having something that could cripple Tentacruel by switching into its Scald outside of sun could be somewhat beneficial to a sun team. Then again, it could also be beneficial to a sand team... I don't think that Infiltrator is really worth it, and Leaf Guard just seems like an excuse to use non-berry items, which I'm not really keen on making an a priori goal of the secondary ability.
If we have to pick a competitive secondary ability, then Sticky Hold and Synchronize seem like the best bets to me. Sticky Hold exists mainly to block Trick, which is used on about 22% of all Latios, and which would cripple a Harvest variant of CAP 5. Synchronize is a weird one, but I'm mainly interested in it because of Tentacruel. While a sun team does tend to have Will-O-Wisp and/or Lava Plume, having something that could cripple Tentacruel by switching into its Scald outside of sun could be somewhat beneficial to a sun team. Then again, it could also be beneficial to a sand team... I don't think that Infiltrator is really worth it, and Leaf Guard just seems like an excuse to use non-berry items, which I'm not really keen on making an a priori goal of the secondary ability.
I don't think that we should give Thick Fat to the CAP and here are the reasons:
1. Thick Fat doesn't allow the CAP to deal with anything that it wants to and can't already beat. All of your examples of special attackers that carry Ice moves, such as Politoed, Thundurus-T, and Starmie, are already walled. While Thick Fat will make it easier to tank Ice Beam and HP Ice, without huge passive recovery from Sitrus Berry or insta-heal and status immunity from LumRest, the CAP will be easier to deafeat in the long run, as its most viable form of recovery will most likely be Morning Sun when using Thick Fat(i don't think that anyone wants to give Recover to the CAP right?). So overall, the CAP performs better against the special attackers that it wants to beat with Harvest than with Thick Fat. Now let's talk about the other effect of Thick Fat, the Fire damage halving. Why would we want to give to the CAP this privilege? Is the CAP supposed to tank any Fire move, except from Latios's HP Fire in sun, which can already be handled by the CAP? No. So why allow it to do so? Why give it a trait that makes it better in every kind of team except for sun teams? So, in the end, Thick Fat doesn't give anything that helps the CAP fulfill its role that Harvest doesn't already.
2. Thick Fat makes the CAP much more viable outside of Sun, while not helping sun at all, as i already explained in my first post. With Thick Fat, the CAP now has only 3 relevant weaknesses (i am excluding Poison for obvious reasons), and 5 very relevant and useful resistances/immunities (Water, Ground, Grass, Electric, Psychic), as well as immense special bulk, and possibly the ability to rapid spin and beat every Ghost in OU, and Pursuit trap. Why do you want to give to the CAP an ability that only enhances its performance outside of sun, but does nothing to help the CAP with the threats that we want it to (when compared to Harvest of 'course), and nothing to help sun teams in general? One of our goals is exactly the opposite of what Thick Fat does, and this goal is to make the CAP boost sun's usage and performance more than it will boost the same attributres of other types of teams, such as sand and rain. This is why we want abilities that are mostly useful inside sun.
Leaf Guard's benefits may be niche, but this is what we want from our secondary ability anyway right? Didn't we want either an ability of minor significance that will only help the CAP slightly with its role and won't overshadow Harvest? If yes is the answer, then Leaf Guard fits like a glove. It helps sets that want to use Leftovers for the constant passive healing (Sitrus doesn't always activate) by allowing them to prevent status when in sun, which helps against many of the Pokemon that we want to beat, such as defensive Waters, which commonly use Scald and Toxic. It also helps offensive sets with either LO or a choice item, but i don't think that those sets will be good, so i don't really care. It is situational sure, as sun won't always be up, but it does have some use, and it does help the CAP with its role, even if it helps just by a little. And let's not forget that many Ninetales use Sunny Day to keep their weather up as Politoed comes in, so Leaf Guard can actually be active sometimes when swithcing into Politoed. Oh and the CAP can use Sunny Day itself, to keep momentum for its team, as well as greatly benefiting itself from the sun, activating Leaf Guard and enhancing its recovery(Morning Sun). Finally, Leaf Guard is one of the few abilities of minor importance that we can give to the CAP that only works in sun, which is obviously something good.
So, while other minor abilities such as Sticky Hold and Synchronize do help the CAP a bit with its role, they help it in all enviroments, not just sun, and imo are even more situational than Leaf Guard.
Why exactly is there such a desire to make CAP 5 only viable in sun? I know that's the concept that was discussed as the best way of fulfilling the goal, but as far as I'm concerned, as long as CAP 5 does not aid rain, then there's no harm in making it viable outside of sun. Of course, it is already going to be a complete beast in sun with harvest, so if it has an inferior ability to harvest, which is perfectly possible, then I don't see the problem of making it viable on other teams, weatherless or even sand. A simple status-canceling ability such as Synchronize or Natural Cure makes CAP 5 viable outside of sun but does not outclass harvest in any way.
Maybe I'm getting this entire thing wrong, but I was under the assumption the point of CAP 5 isn't just to buff every sun team.
Maybe I'm getting this entire thing wrong, but I was under the assumption the point of CAP 5 isn't just to buff every sun team.
I think No Competitive Ability / Ineffective / whatever is a good choice here. Harvest is already a powerful ability, we don't need things like Thick Fat / Analytic that risk to turn our CAP into something else compared to our desired goal. I'm fine with Leaf Guard, too, it ties CAP to Sun while not providing a groundbreaking effect, but I don't think the addition is necessary at all.
Thick Fat is so absolutely a competitive option that will absolutely have the potential to overshadow Harvest in certain scenarios.
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat (custom): 132-156 (30.41 - 35.94%) -- 39.62% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat (custom): 78-94 (17.97 - 21.65%) -- possible 5HKO
Yes, CAP5 will still struggle with Physical Attackers, especially Scizor and Breloom. But the simple fact is under Rain, with Thick Fat, CAP5 actually resists Fire moves. That's absurd. Under Rain, offensive Heatran only 6HKOs Thick Fat CAP5.
That's not what we were setting out to do when we listed Heatran as a prime counter to CAP5. Thick Fat will lead to a spread of CAP5 to Sand and Rain teams as well as weatherless.
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat (custom): 132-156 (30.41 - 35.94%) -- 39.62% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat (custom): 78-94 (17.97 - 21.65%) -- possible 5HKO
Yes, CAP5 will still struggle with Physical Attackers, especially Scizor and Breloom. But the simple fact is under Rain, with Thick Fat, CAP5 actually resists Fire moves. That's absurd. Under Rain, offensive Heatran only 6HKOs Thick Fat CAP5.
That's not what we were setting out to do when we listed Heatran as a prime counter to CAP5. Thick Fat will lead to a spread of CAP5 to Sand and Rain teams as well as weatherless.
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