CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 2 - Main Type Discussion

[X-Act]

Okay, after considering things carefully, the types we need to resist most importatly are Special Ice and Fire (4 of the top 10 Pokemon use these types of attacks regularly), followed closely by Special Ground and Grass (3 of them use them), and then Physical Fighting (2 of them).

Water would be dandy except for the Special Grass weakness, which can be corrected by its secondary typing I suppose.

Hence, yeah, I see Water as being a rather good choice.

 

[eric the espeon]

After reading through all the arguments..
I am agreeing with the general sentiment for Water, and Fighting looks like a great second type to thrash Tyranitar and others.
It does not need to take all of the top 5-10 so electric weak and grass weak are acceptable IMO. It needs some counters, Zappy is a fair choice.

We already have a brilliant Zapdos counter in Pyroak (HP Fly/Toxic/Metal Sound+Heat Wave do hurt, but all are rare), a revenge killer in Syclant and Stratagem and something that sets up on it in Fidgit. Only Rev has real problems with Zappy so far.

 

[wildfire393]

Let's see:
Typing should probably be such that it has multiple (useful?) resistances without any vital weaknesses.
Water and Dragon types immediately spring to mind. They both resist 4 useful types (Fire, Ice, Steel, and Water for Water, Fire, Water, Electric, and Grass for Dragon) while only having 2 weaknesses each.

Some other potentially useful types would include:
Fighting, which resists the common Dark and Rock (and the uncommon bug) while being weak only to the uncommon Flying and Psychic
Fire, which resists Fire, Grass, and Ice, while unfortunately having weaknesses to the all-to-common Water, Ground, and Rock.
Poison, which resists the common Fighting and Grass (and the uncommon poison and bug), while being weak to Psychic (uncommon) and Ground (unfortuantely far too common).
Electric, which resists the common Electric, Steel, and the uncommon Flying, while having only a single weakness, although this is to the common Ground. However, a move like Levitate makes Electric a Drawbackless typing, which could be potentially defensively powerful, especially when paired with another Ground Weakness. Levitate Poison/Electric anyone? It'd resist Electric, Steel, Flying, Bug, Fighting, Poison, and Grass, while only being weak to Psychic.

 

[Cartoons!]

As someone who uses Poliwrath regularly with success to counter or check most of the top threats in the CAP metagame, I can't help but feel that going the route of a bulky water/fighting type would be mostly time better spent elsewhere...

 

[Frosty]

Considering that are goal here is not to be...uh...viable against all of them, but to be good, as in, to check at least the majority, I am rooting for a Ground/Fighting combination with Thick Fat. Yes I like Hariyama that much.

But putting the poll-jumping aside, I think I will go with fighting here. No one of the 10 pokes listed can hit Fighting SE, unless you include weird stuff like Tech Air Cutter from Stratagem or Hp-flying from Zapdos. Also, it resists the STABs from T-tar, Stratagem and the Bug STAB from Syclant and Scizor. From the offensive aspects, it hits 4 or the 10 pokes SE, while 3 of them resist/is immune to it...but like I've said, the goal isn't to check ALL of them. Only the majority. Also, fighting pokes have a higher possibility of getting the punches or Stone Edge to hit some of those pokes SE, but that isn't the point of this poll I guess.

All in all, Fighting is up high on my preferances, but I can still be convinced otherwise. Also, I wouldn't hate to see a ground or a water typed poke as well.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Okay, after considering things carefully, the types we need to resist most importatly are Special Ice and Fire (4 of the top 10 Pokemon use these types of attacks regularly), followed closely by Special Ground and Grass (3 of them use them), and then Physical Fighting (2 of them).

Water would be dandy except for the Special Grass weakness, which can be corrected by its secondary typing I suppose.

Hence, yeah, I see Water as being a rather good choice.

Funny that you'd just need to add Bug to resist/be neutral against all these typings. GO, SURSKIT!

 

[ferron]

Funny that you'd just need to add Bug to resist/be neutral against all these typings. GO, SURSKIT!

yes, now if sunskit only had a good movepool, or good stats....

but you are right, water/bug would pretty much make it neutral across the board, but it gives us nothing to really use that second stab on. we would be adding it for tanking/walling the top 10 and adding SE against things that aren't even on the list.

for the purposes of the original concept, i still say ground/fighting is the best offensively and defensively, with either water/fighting or ice/fighting in second place.

so why did i support ground instead of fighting? because i believe that grounds resistances at this point are more important than what fighting would give it offensively.

 

[X-Act]

It does not need to take all of the top 5-10 so electric weak and grass weak are acceptable IMO. It needs some counters, Zappy is a fair choice.

This Pokemon should not be weak to Grass. Stratagem has Giga Drain. Zapdos has HP Grass. Pyroak has Grass Knot.

On the other hand, an Electric move is only used by Zapdos.

I'd rather not be weak to Grass, then.

The two most important types to wall are Ice and Fire, though. It's hugely important to wall these two. Then Grass and Ground are next, and Fighting is next.

So a typing that isn't weak to Ice, Fire, Grass, Ground and Fighting is ideal. Anything else would be a bonus.

 

[eric the espeon]

This Pokemon should not be weak to Grass. Stratagem has Giga Drain.

55.3% of them do, its used with Technician. Its true that many Strata have Giga Drain, and that with a grass weak it would be hard for this to win, but the concept is not about checking all ofm the top 5, just many.

Zapdos has HP Grass.

32.7%, and a non-STAB Hidden power should not 2KO under most circumstances if we make it bulky. Also Zappy will probably have a SE STAB Thunderbolt so HO Grass is a non-issue.

Pyroak has Grass Knot.

33.4% have it. And another 8.2% have Energy Ball.
But it rarely invests in any Special attack, and unless this thing is extremely unusual Oak will outstall it with Toxic/Leach Seed pretty much whatever we do. Also Oak is only no. 10, not the top 5 mentioned in the concept.

Out of those three users of grass moves in the top 10 only one both commonly uses the move and can do more harm with it than other moves.
That means out of the top 10 only one will really use a Grass weakness to its advantage against CaP 6. And even then only just over half of Stratagems carry Giga Drain.


I think that walling Tyranitar's STAB moves is more important than Grass moves.

 

[Goodbar]

This Pokemon should not be weak to Grass. Stratagem has Giga Drain. Zapdos has HP Grass. Pyroak has Grass Knot.

On the other hand, an Electric move is only used by Zapdos.

I'd rather not be weak to Grass, then.

The two most important types to wall are Ice and Fire, though. It's hugely important to wall these two. Then Grass and Ground are next, and Fighting is next.

So a typing that isn't weak to Ice, Fire, Grass, Ground and Fighting is ideal. Anything else would be a bonus.

Fire/Flying resists all but ice, which isn't a big deal due to lack of OU stab users besides mamo and weavile who have terrible base power moves anyways. (If we gave it mountaineer...)could make a good counter to a lot of things including every CAP bar stratagem. It could at least keep zapdos away if we were generous with it's spatk. Honestly something similar to Moltres seems like it could be pretty good ?_?
EDIT: That's why I brought up the ability, I hate to poll jump but the ability can make all the difference...

 

[Imran]

Why would we make something similar to Moltres, Moltres would be a good quality Pokrmon if it wasn't for Stealth Rock, so any CAP Pokemon will be hindered by similar things. I would seem like a waste of a whole CAP project to make something x4 weak to Stealth ROck at this stage, seeing as no Pokemon (bar Ho-Oh) with a x4 Stealth Rock weaknesss works well in the metagame outside of Yanmega and the occasional Scarf Moltres, designed for a MAX of 1 or 2 usages.

 

[Griffin]

So a typing that isn't weak to Ice, Fire, Grass, Ground and Fighting is ideal. Anything else would be a bonus.

Bug/Water
Fire/Fighting*
Water/Poison*
Ice/Ghost**
Ice/Psychic**
Bug/Steel**
Ghost/Dark

* With Levitate
** With Flash Fire (lulz)

I only checked the types that already exist though. Water/Bug actually doesn't sound too bad. Although looking at the votes this is going in the direction of Swampert/Gastrodon.

 

[eric the espeon]

Why would we make something similar to Moltres, Moltres would be a good quality Pokrmon if it wasn't for Stealth Rock, so any CAP Pokemon will be hindered by similar things. I would seem like a waste of a whole CAP project to make something x4 weak to Stealth ROck at this stage, seeing as no Pokemon (bar Ho-Oh) with a x4 Stealth Rock weaknesss works well in the metagame outside of Yanmega and the occasional Scarf Moltres, designed for a MAX of 1 or 2 usages.

And Syclant:naughty:
but yea, no more SR immune abilitys...

 

[X-Act]

On second thoughts, not being weak to Rock also helps. But I'd say that not being weak to Ice, Fire, Grass, Ground, Rock and Fighting simultaneously is kinda difficult to achieve. Having only one weakness from these six and resisting a few of them would be okay.

 

[eric the espeon]

On second thoughts, not being weak to Rock also helps. But I'd say that not being weak to Ice, Fire, Grass, Ground, Rock and Fighting simultaneously is kinda difficult to achieve. Having only one weakness from these six and resisting a few of them would be okay.

Well Water/Fight resists Rock, Ice, and Fire while only being weak to Grass.

Water/Ghost.. Resists Ice/Fire Immune to Fight and neutral to the rest?

Water/Dragon is also an interesting possibility, only one weakness (Dragon) and a ton of resists.

 

[Goodbar]

Why not throw mountaineer on a fire/flier? It's hard to check a pokemon when you can barely or not even switch into it. The choice towards water seems to be largely based on it's offensive typing rather than it's defensive typing and I really don't think that's the way to go. You're hardly going to be shaking up the OU elite if you can't safely switch into them often enough.

 

[Imran]

Yeah exactly we have scylant, in fact I'm surprised that only 68% of them have mountaineer, but then again it is a "sweeper," on a "decentraliser" in other words something that comes in and scares out common threats, its going to have to switch in multiple times, and if it's SR weak its pretty much worthless.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

OK, let's see here...

POSSIBLE SECONDARY TYPE OPTIONS FOR WATER

(since Water will probably win anyway)
​

Current Problems:

Zapdos
Pyroak
MAYBE Strategem w/ Giga Drain + Tech
(if we make it slow and not access Aqua Jet)

Mono-Water: No, just no... we've got WAY TOO MANY mono-waters, we don't need another one.

Water/Normal: Revvy checks in, no-one checks out. End of...

Water/Fire: Makes Strategem even worse, and allows Fidgit and TTar to jump in on the fray. Syclant and Heatran MAY also come in and KO w/ Earth Power. Bad trade off for Grass coverage IMO, and doesn't help against Zapdos

Water/Electric: Gets rid of Zapdos, but allows Syclant and possible Fidgit/TTar/Heatran entry and. Also Lanturn territory, albeit it doesn't do too well at its job IMO

Water/Grass: Better defences against Pyroak, but doesn't phaze Zapdos. Fidgit MAY come in, but only if it has Sludge Bomb, which isn't likely. Scylant and Scizor can also come in. Currently Ludicolo territory

Water/Ice: Scares Zapdos a bit, but in return for Revvy, TTar and Scizor jumping in, and Building Gem's confidence? Not worth it, at all

Water/Fighting: Does nothing to help scare off Pyroak and Zapdos, but it does intimidate Blissey, with no more weaknesses in return. Overall, not bad in terms of helping decentralization, if we can get around Poliwrath territory

Water/Poison: Pyroak's no longer a problem, but Stratagem can now resort to Earth Power if need be. Scylant comes in for the kill though, as do Fidgit, TTar and Heatran if they're feeling brave enough. Tentacreul territory is worth a mention

Water/Ground: Zapdos is no longer a counter, but Strategem and Pyroak are well rewarded for sticking around. Swampert territory is worth a mention too

Water/Flying: Zapdos fodder. Also allows couragous TTar's to come in. On the plus side, it does get rid of Pyroak. Gyarados is in the domain ATM

Water/Psychic: Revvy and TTar might come in. Scylant and Scizor DO come in. Overall, worse than Water/Normal

Water/Bug: See Water/Flying. Surskit's not viable, which means that Water/Bug is technically free

Water/Rock: Well it does scare both Zapdos AND Pyroak, but they MAYBE still willing to stick around, the latter being well rewarded for doing so. Same with Strategem. Revvy and Scizor come in too. Add Omastar and Kabutops and Relicanth territory in the mix, and you've got an iffy combo on your hands

Water/Ghost: Revvy and TTar might come in. Doesn't help with Zappy and Oaky either. Not good

Water/Dragon: Zappy and Oaky check out, nothing checks in. On the other hand, Kingdra territory will probably be a bitch to get around. Apart from that, it'll probably be the best bet

Water/Dark: Easily the worst combo of the lot, as Revvy, Scylant and Scizor come in for free and no-one will be willing to back down.

Water/Steel: First off, Empoleon territory. Secondly, Revvy comes in confidently, and Fidgit, TTar and Heatran may come in. Does get rid of Pyroak though, but is it really worth it?

On a side note, I should point out that Heatran DOES have Earth Power and DOES use it.

 

[Hyra]

I don't get why people are so concerned about resisting non-STAB attacks. Those should be weak enough that you can switch in. Also, this isn't meant to be a full-out counter to all of the Pokemon, just a check, something that stop them from sweeping your team but might not necessarily be able to switch in multiple times.

Anyways, for Cartoons, I think Poliwrath's main problem is too low of Speed, which is what I would fix if we made a Water/Fight. A fast, polarized attacker that has all the moves commonly associated with Water (Ice Beam) and Fighting (Stone Edge).

 

[zarator]

OK, let's see here...

POSSIBLE SECONDARY TYPE OPTIONS FOR WATER​

(since Water will probably win anyway)​

Current Problems:

Zapdos
Pyroak
MAYBE Strategem w/ Giga Drain + Tech
(if we make it slow and not access Aqua Jet)

Mono-Water: No, just no... we've got WAY TOO MANY mono-waters, we don't need another one.

Water/Normal: Revvy checks in, no-one checks out. End of...

Water/Fire: Makes Strategem even worse, and allows Fidgit and TTar to jump in on the fray. Syclant and Heatran MAY also come in and KO w/ Earth Power. Bad trade off for Grass coverage IMO, and doesn't help against Zapdos

Water/Electric: Gets rid of Zapdos, but allows Syclant and possible Fidgit/TTar/Heatran entry and. Also Lanturn territory, albeit it doesn't do too well at its job IMO

Water/Grass: Better defences against Pyroak, but doesn't phaze Zapdos. Fidgit MAY come in, but only if it has Sludge Bomb, which isn't likely. Scylant and Scizor can also come in. Currently Ludicolo territory

Water/Ice: Scares Zapdos a bit, but in return for Revvy, TTar and Scizor jumping in, and Building Gem's confidence? Not worth it, at all

Water/Fighting: Does nothing to help scare off Pyroak and Zapdos, but it does intimidate Blissey, with no more weaknesses in return. Overall, not bad in terms of helping decentralization, if we can get around Poliwrath territory

Water/Poison: Pyroak's no longer a problem, but Stratagem can now resort to Earth Power if need be. Scylant comes in for the kill though, as do Fidgit, TTar and Heatran if they're feeling brave enough. Tentacreul territory is worth a mention

Water/Ground: Zapdos is no longer a counter, but Strategem and Pyroak are well rewarded for sticking around. Swampert territory is worth a mention too

Water/Flying: Zapdos fodder. Also allows couragous TTar's to come in. On the plus side, it does get rid of Pyroak. Gyarados is in the domain ATM

Water/Psychic: Revvy and TTar might come in. Scylant and Scizor DO come in. Overall, worse than Water/Normal

Water/Bug: See Water/Flying. Surskit's not viable, which means that Water/Bug is technically free

Water/Rock: Well it does scare both Zapdos AND Pyroak, but they MAYBE still willing to stick around, the latter being well rewarded for doing so. Same with Strategem. Revvy and Scizor come in too. Add Omastar and Kabutops and Relicanth territory in the mix, and you've got an iffy combo on your hands

Water/Ghost: Revvy and TTar might come in. Doesn't help with Zappy and Oaky either. Not good

Water/Dragon: Zappy and Oaky check out, nothing checks in. On the other hand, Kingdra territory will probably be a bitch to get around. Apart from that, it'll probably be the best bet

Water/Dark: Easily the worst combo of the lot, as Revvy, Scylant and Scizor come in for free and no-one will be willing to back down.

Water/Steel: First off, Empoleon territory. Secondly, Revvy comes in confidently, and Fidgit, TTar and Heatran may come in. Does get rid of Pyroak though, but is it really worth it?

On a side note, I should point out that Heatran DOES have Earth Power and DOES use it.

Im really sick of these "this is X territory". Bronzong, Jirachi and Metagross are all Steel/Psychic. Do they utclass each one in their job? No. Forretress and Scizor are both Bug/Steel. Do they outclass each other? No, again (Scizor may be more common, but it cant spike like Forretress and has a completely different role). And this is not because they are all OU. Nidoking and Fidgit are both Poison/Ground. Do they outclass each other?... No. Nidoking is a wallbreaker. Fidgit is a supporter.

The point is that Water/Fighting isn't Poliwrath, Water/Flying isn't Gyarados, Water/Dragon isn't Kingdra. A pokemon is not only defined by its typing, but also by its stats and its movepool. If Gamefreak used such logic in gen IV, Bronzong would have never been created

 

[tennisace]

We already set precident for not giving a shit about UUs when we made Fidgit. Why should we start caring now? Overall, I'm looking at either Water/Bug, Water/Ghost, Water/Rock, or Water/Flying. I don't give two shits whether or not we beat every one of the Top Ten, because A. that's not the concept, and B. it's a completely unreasonable assumption. Personally I'd like to focus on a few of the top ten, not all of them. Why bother making this counter all of the top 10 through typing, when we can concentrate on a few of them and make a better Pokemon overall?

 

[sbc]

Agree with tennis.

I don't think people realise that if we create a good rev counter we will see less zapdos, if we create a good scizor and scylant counter we will see less heatran and if we create a good ttar/stratagem counter we will see less scizor.

 

[tennisace]

For all the people voting fighting, the reason that Revenankh is #2 is because of its fighting typing. Why exactly would we make another fighting type again?

 

[Bluecaptain]

I think fighting would work well, as the main type
Then we could use water as the second type
Weak to zapdos , I know, haven't really thought it over to much but I like the idea.

 

[Goodbar]

Agree with tennis.

I don't think people realise that if we create a good rev counter we will see less zapdos, if we create a good scizor and scylant counter we will see less heatran and if we create a good ttar/stratagem counter we will see less scizor.

I don't think that's absolutely true at all, pokemon teams aren't made up to counter each other, they're supposed to have some sort of strategy, and the things you listed counter more than just one pokemon, so I think you're really reducing the effectiveness of these pokemon to say now that we have another counter X becomes less effective and thus less used. Also many of the top threats themselves counter/check a number of each other. I was under the impression this new CAP would be very top OU centered, but the direction seems to be "let's just make another top tier CAP pokemon" imo.