How bout Steelix, Metagross, or Jirachi then? Those don't really care about getting hit Fire Punch and can give CAP7 a lesson in pain although Steelix still fucking walls you. Wouldn't hearing that it's [barely] 3HKOing majority of it's checks be a good thing? This is especially good if the user is an Adamant CBer. Majority of the Pokemon listed took EQ like a champ and can do something back to it. Of the Pokemon that are 2HKOed, one couldn't do anything to CAP7 anyway short of a critical LO'd Sword Danced Bullet Punch.
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CAP 7 CAP 7 - Part 11 - Attacking Moves Discussion
- Thread starter Magmortified
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I'm happy for it to have Steel Seed Flare (or a lower powered variant, depending on damage calcs) as its main STAB. Steel is a fairly neutral attack type so it's not a bad STAB but Water still resists it so I would hope that even with a defence drop, Bulky Waters would be able to stay in.
I like the move as it has to be STABbed to see use (Crush Claw just Isn't competitive), and it aids CAP7 in forcing switches. I don't see how one can complain that it's overpowered since Seed Flare itself is fairly easy to withstand.
Arghonaut, as a Bulky Water is pretty much the perfect counter to a Steel Seed Flaring Scout, since it resists Steel and ignores the Defence drop.
I am confused as to why Seed Bomb is pending? Please NO Physical Grass moves. Bulky Waters and Grounds are the only counters that everyone agrees on so giving CAP7 a fairly exclusive, high powered SE physical move is counterproductive. Not that it's currently on Mag's list but for the record, Power Whip and Needle Arm should be Unallowed too.
I like the move as it has to be STABbed to see use (Crush Claw just Isn't competitive), and it aids CAP7 in forcing switches. I don't see how one can complain that it's overpowered since Seed Flare itself is fairly easy to withstand.
Arghonaut, as a Bulky Water is pretty much the perfect counter to a Steel Seed Flaring Scout, since it resists Steel and ignores the Defence drop.
I am confused as to why Seed Bomb is pending? Please NO Physical Grass moves. Bulky Waters and Grounds are the only counters that everyone agrees on so giving CAP7 a fairly exclusive, high powered SE physical move is counterproductive. Not that it's currently on Mag's list but for the record, Power Whip and Needle Arm should be Unallowed too.
Yes, but a reduced accuracy makes it not quite as powerful of a move, which was what I was trying to say (also I only said POSSIBLE).
Just chiming in again on the other moves I didn't have time to adress...
I don't want ANY physical grass moves. Why must we try to eliminate the only group of counters that we all agree on? I'd like Volt Tackle, because the only bulky water it would affect are Vaporeon because of lack of a reliable recovery move (although wish somewhat makes up for it). And besides, more residual damage just means CAP 7 will go down quicker. We need to give CAP7 all the type coverage CAP7 can have. We should not go with Dig and Shadow Force, and who will really use them just for a strong pokemon to come in and set up/start sweeping with strong sweepers such as Flygon, Porygon-Z, Latias and Curselax present in the OU metagame? It doesn't matter if you can scout for a Latias if it can get +1 sp.atk and sp.def and prepare to sweep your team. Explosion sounds really good as most scouts have it, and I would also want a Physical Steel/Ghost Seed Flare (although ghost seems prefearable because of inferrior coverage offered by steel and for lack of a powerful Ghost physical STAB). However, CAP7 would be too broken if BOTH Explosion and Steel Flare were in the same movepool.
I don't want ANY physical grass moves. Why must we try to eliminate the only group of counters that we all agree on? I'd like Volt Tackle, because the only bulky water it would affect are Vaporeon because of lack of a reliable recovery move (although wish somewhat makes up for it). And besides, more residual damage just means CAP 7 will go down quicker. We need to give CAP7 all the type coverage CAP7 can have. We should not go with Dig and Shadow Force, and who will really use them just for a strong pokemon to come in and set up/start sweeping with strong sweepers such as Flygon, Porygon-Z, Latias and Curselax present in the OU metagame? It doesn't matter if you can scout for a Latias if it can get +1 sp.atk and sp.def and prepare to sweep your team. Explosion sounds really good as most scouts have it, and I would also want a Physical Steel/Ghost Seed Flare (although ghost seems prefearable because of inferrior coverage offered by steel and for lack of a powerful Ghost physical STAB). However, CAP7 would be too broken if BOTH Explosion and Steel Flare were in the same movepool.
i love how everyone is that is defending EQ is acting like attacking is the only way to deal with certain pokes. have all of you forgot that we still have the support move discussion? with the moves its likely to get from typing (WoW, metal sound, hypnosis, etc.) it can still deal with those pokes.
also, i am completely against a physical steel seed flare. 40% chance of a two stage drop has always been too much in my oppinion, also the only other move with a 40% chance of anything is smog. i would say that a steel or ghost crunch would be more appropriate since crunch does have precedent (froslass, heatran, lucario, mawile) and isn't over powered.
now, on the much neglected special side of the spectrum; BoltBeam actually has a precedent from both sides with aggron and froslass, and we all know how well this combo works. persian's Swift/Water Pulse combois also available at low damage but decent chance of confusion/never missing (jirachi is the only one with both, but both moves have decent precedent from both sides.). Charge Beam would make its ability to use the special spectrum actually possible (banette, bronzong, drifblim, dusknoir, jirachi, magnezone, mawile, mismagius, registeel and rotom).
edit:both seed flare and shadow force are exclussive moves, which means we shouldn't be arguing about them to begin with.
also, i am completely against a physical steel seed flare. 40% chance of a two stage drop has always been too much in my oppinion, also the only other move with a 40% chance of anything is smog. i would say that a steel or ghost crunch would be more appropriate since crunch does have precedent (froslass, heatran, lucario, mawile) and isn't over powered.
now, on the much neglected special side of the spectrum; BoltBeam actually has a precedent from both sides with aggron and froslass, and we all know how well this combo works. persian's Swift/Water Pulse combois also available at low damage but decent chance of confusion/never missing (jirachi is the only one with both, but both moves have decent precedent from both sides.). Charge Beam would make its ability to use the special spectrum actually possible (banette, bronzong, drifblim, dusknoir, jirachi, magnezone, mawile, mismagius, registeel and rotom).
edit:both seed flare and shadow force are exclussive moves, which means we shouldn't be arguing about them to begin with.
60 accuracy Hypnosis isn't really dependable when Magnezone is beating down your door. WoW is suicide against Heatran and only barely effective against Magnezone. Metal Sound isn't particularly fearsome when you've only got 55 Base Special Attack.
Public reaction seems to be more in favor of a Steel Crush Claw or something of the like. That's only a one stage drop with, what? 50% chance of effect? :S I'd really prefer - if we go through with this - to keep the chance of Defense dropping fairly high. So as to show up often enough to make a difference.
hypnosis was boost to 70 in D/P...
also, that was a list of examples, not all it will gain from support moves.
yeah, i guess that wouldn't be too bad.
And it got nerfed again in Platinium. Hence Gengars massive decrease in usage.
Hypnosis got nerfed back down to 60% in Platinum.
Grrr... I personally like the Seed Flare one much more, but maybe a Crush Claw with 60% chance of lowering instead of 50%?
Grrr... I personally like the Seed Flare one much more, but maybe a Crush Claw with 60% chance of lowering instead of 50%?
Steel Crush Claw sounds like a good thing.
An intresting possibility is a low powered ghost move that has a good chance (30-50%) to induce sleep. It wouldn't be killing anything, but Magnezone/Heatran Switches have a chace of falling asleep. However, due to sleep clause, it wouldn't be that broken, as people would save their sleeps.
An intresting possibility is a low powered ghost move that has a good chance (30-50%) to induce sleep. It wouldn't be killing anything, but Magnezone/Heatran Switches have a chace of falling asleep. However, due to sleep clause, it wouldn't be that broken, as people would save their sleeps.
However, Bonemerang has something that Earthquake does not to make up for that accuracy lost: The ability to break through Substitutes on the first hit and then hit Pokemon like Heatran and Magnezone with a 200 power move on the second. EQ, however, while being perfectly accurate, would just break the sub. Thus, if anything, Bonemerang is the much more powerful move, since it's only giving up 10% accuracy for much more beneficial mechanics. Thus, if it can get Bonemerang, which can potentially do even more for CAP7 than Earthquake could, then I don't see why it can't get Earthquake as well.
Because simply being able to throw status around doesn't make up for lack of offensive ability, by precedent. If being able to throw around such moves was enough, at least several of the Grass/Poisons, like Roserade and Venasaur, should be OU. Offensive ability is also paritally why Rotom-A is trumping other defensive Ghosts, like Dusknoir and Spiritomb; all are nice, but Rotom is the most capable of hurting things from the get-go. However, in any case, both Rotom and Dusknoir are decent at causing some damage, and thus how they wind up in OU, and Spiritomb, who despite also being able to status and what not and has Ghost/Dark typing and Pressure, being more needing of a set-up move to actually cause damage falls to UU.ferron said:
Being able to throw status around with Psycho Shift also didn't help Cressaila much. It's still OU, but is used less than Pokemon like Skarmory and Brozong, who, while also being able to take a hit, can do more to support their team.
Status really isn't that great of a replacement for actual coverage/ability to actually threaten things or support the team.
Bonemarang is beneficial in one situation: the opponent has a Substitute up. In every other situation, Earthquake is more powerful, due to its increased accuracy. Also, I said that Bonemarang was "possible", and "likely not Earthquake". Obviously I don't feel too strongly one way or the other about either of them, though if DougJustDoug's art wins, then Bonemarang gets wicked flavor points.
Power Whip is definitely too good, but I really don't see what's too good about Seed Bomb/Needle Arm. Against anything but Swampert (and to a lesser extent, Rhyperior), these don't do anything that his other moves can't do. Ice Punch is about equivilent to Seed Bomb against Ground types and has better coverage overall, Thunder Punch is about equivilent to Seed Bomb against Water types and has better coverage overall. Needle Arm does even less to your average Ground or Water type than the equivilent punch. You could argue that having a grass move allows him to dedicate only a single slot to dealing with both Grounds and Waters, but keep in mind that Grass has some pretty terrible coverage apart from raping Swampert, can't hit all of what it's supposed to be covering, including things like Gyarados and Gliscor. And if Seed Bomb seems too good (which I really don't see), at least Needle Arm seems reasonable. In fact, I'm nominating it as an Allowable Move.
And I thought bulky grounds like Swampert and Rhyperior were meant to counter this thing. I oppose all physical grass-type moves and water-type moves for this very reason.
I'm going to combine the principles of Bonemerang and a weaker move to hit Tran and Zone, and bring up Bone Club. Not really necessary, but OK for if you're really paranoid about them, the drop in power and accuracy being considerable.
Of course, this'll look plain daft if Doug doesn't win.
Of course, this'll look plain daft if Doug doesn't win.
Come on, guys. Mach Booster is a 50-power attack in the worst attacking type since Normal and Poison. Besides, it only has a 63% chance to boost Speed! The way I see it, it's less broken than Motor Drive. Charge Beam never broke any backs, and this won't either. It's just an awesome move for an awesome Pokemon; nothing more, nothing less.
Meteor Mash is too powerful. I still agree with the idea of a Physical Seed Flare with 85/90 Base Power.
I don't see the huge benefit in Mach Booster. Surely Agility will suffice if you need to be able to boost speed but looking at the pokemon that boost speed competitively - they either do it to sweep, like Agiligross, or do it to Bation Pass like Loljask. Since our Scout wouldn't be doing either, I don't see the need to create a new damage+speed move when we have suggestions like STAB Seed Flare/Crush Claw that would help to force switches alot more.
I'm still in support of a STAB Physical Seed Flare but think that making it Ghost type would make more sense as it is arguably a weaker attacking type than Steel and would help alot to scout for Normal team members. Add to the fact that Steel already has decent, reliable STABs in Meteor Mash and Iron Head and you can see that this needs more Ghost options.
STAB Crush Claw is also a good idea but I think it would have to be over 50BP or over 50% chance of Def drop in order to be really useful. I think that both this moves should be voted on so that if people believe STAB Flare is overpowered, they still have the option of supporting STAB Crush Claw. Personally I believe that STAB Flare is in no way overpowered, especially if it's Ghost type.
I'm still in support of a STAB Physical Seed Flare but think that making it Ghost type would make more sense as it is arguably a weaker attacking type than Steel and would help alot to scout for Normal team members. Add to the fact that Steel already has decent, reliable STABs in Meteor Mash and Iron Head and you can see that this needs more Ghost options.
STAB Crush Claw is also a good idea but I think it would have to be over 50BP or over 50% chance of Def drop in order to be really useful. I think that both this moves should be voted on so that if people believe STAB Flare is overpowered, they still have the option of supporting STAB Crush Claw. Personally I believe that STAB Flare is in no way overpowered, especially if it's Ghost type.
Exactly; that's why I really don't want to create such a move. It's taking up a move-slot and risking not accomplishing anything just for a chance at boosting speed, while not doing much damage. If we're going to create a new move for CAP7, I'd rather it be something that won't be a gimmick option and actually be able to accomplish something or improve one of its weaknesses.
To this end, I propose (although something like this might have been mentioned already; can't remember) a more powerful physical Ghost Move for CAP7 than Shadow Claw, since 70 BP is kind of underwhelming. As a compromise, perhaps something like this:
Shadow Slam
Type: Ghost
Category: Physical
Base Power: 85
PP: 15
Accuracy: 100%
Secondary Effect: 30% chance to cause Paralysis.
Pretty much, a Ghost-type version of Body Slam; good power and a chance of paralysis to achieve the same goal as the speed boost. If people are really worried about the 30% chance of paralysis being too much, then it can be toned down to something like 15% or whatever.
I like that idea Naxte. Shadow Slam seems like a pretty good physical Ghost attack (considering Shadow Claw is a tad weak and Shadow Force is a two-turn move).
I still don't understand why people are arguing against Earthquake. I'm in full support of it. I really don't give a crap about Magnezone and Heatran... there's far more Pokemon to counter our Scoutmon than these two. And I saw some very convincing damage calcs... EQ isn't going to break this Scoutmon. I'm all for it.
The Steel-type Crush Claw or Steel-type Seed Flare are also good suggestions. Just as long as we adjust the power and effect rate so it isn't too broken (which I'm sure we'll do a bit later).
I still don't understand why people are arguing against Earthquake. I'm in full support of it. I really don't give a crap about Magnezone and Heatran... there's far more Pokemon to counter our Scoutmon than these two. And I saw some very convincing damage calcs... EQ isn't going to break this Scoutmon. I'm all for it.
The Steel-type Crush Claw or Steel-type Seed Flare are also good suggestions. Just as long as we adjust the power and effect rate so it isn't too broken (which I'm sure we'll do a bit later).
I think we should avoid moves that enhance cap7 and focus on ones that drop the opponents stats only. That forces switches, and is why machbooster is dumb and too sweeperish
Iron Head>meteor Mash
Iron Head>meteor Mash
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