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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Concept Assessment
- Thread starter cyberzero
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Fuzz, there will definitely be a Secondary Ability Poll in which there will be a choice for "No Secondary Ability". If this is chosen, then there will be only one Ability for this Pokemon.
One specific since it needs to be built around the ability. It'll get complicated if not.
That said, I agree with everything Deck Knight has said (for once!). Static allows us to knock out 3 of the top 5 concepts in ONE go. It can act as a pivot point mid-game, switching into attacks and maybe paralyzing counters to key threats on your team.
That said, I agree with everything Deck Knight has said (for once!). Static allows us to knock out 3 of the top 5 concepts in ONE go. It can act as a pivot point mid-game, switching into attacks and maybe paralyzing counters to key threats on your team.
Cloud Nine is basically a clone of Air Lock, which Revenankh has. As a result, not really sure if it should be allowed.
One Pokemon can't possibly destroy an entire strategy with just it's present. Don't Stall team have some kind of gameplay so that they don't succumb to anti-stall methods? Speaking of Stall tactics why does "Stall" get so much pampering from everyone but every other strategy/tactics could have gone straight to hell and no one would give a damn. Does sitting around for 20+ turns as passive damage kills things more interesting then offensive teams? Wasn't they're a concept called "Anti-Stall" somewhere in this project. Seem like combining two concepts isn't so bad.
This is completely true, but anyone who's used Revenankh can tell you that the Shed Skin set is MUCH better. A Bulk Up tank who doesn't care about status? The Air Lock set is rarely used.
I think that Cloud Nine or Air Lock would be interesting and perfectly plausible.
Rapid Spin.
Who says you can't you Clefable in OU? I'm taking you think Clefable removes stall from the metagame. Magic Guard is actually a decent option. Scrappy and Wonder Guard would be great abilities and would provide lengthy discussions. It would be an enjoyable topic to discuss with these typing.
Code:
[U][B]Allowed[/B][/U]
[U]Rough Skin[/U]
[I]Magic Guard[/I]
[I]Trace[/I][I]
Color Change[/I]
[I]Iron Fist[/I]
[U][B]Pending[/B][/U]
[I]Wonder Guard[/I]
[I]Slow Start[/I]Italics means that these abilities are so specific, we can not make a new pokemon with them without either A. being completely redundant, or B. making the initial user completely redundant. One of them will have to be completely superior to the other. It is far to difficult to go off on a new tangent with this ability.
Underlined means the abilities are so terrible that it is completely pointless to pursue them. It should be obvious why.
(Don't allow Wonder Guard, Slow Start, Iron Fist, Color Change, Trace, Magic Guard, Rough Skin)
Of the remaining abilities, all seem generally useful. I'd hope that we lean towards making the ability the main part of this CAP, something that is easier to do with some submissions than others (ie: difficult with static, and effect spore. Simple with hustle, snow warning). I have not seen any great argument for any ability yet, so i'll keep my mind open for now.
I'm not too worried about the coding of any abilities. If Stall is chosen, then I'll get it working in Shoddy. It's not working now, because it is a very low-priority thing. It's a crummy ability on a crummy pokemon -- so no one has spent the time to get it working. If we made Stall the basis for this pokemon, then I'll code it up. Don't exclude Stall based on the coding considerations.
As for Forecast, the ability is coded and should work just fine on any pokemon. I recently made some changes to all the weather code, and Forecast was part of it IIRC. Forecast doesn't change Castform's sprite in Shoddy, from what I remember -- and I won't be changing that any time soon. If anyone is stupid enough to choose a CAP ability because of spriting implications, then you have seriously missed the point of this project.
As for Forecast, the ability is coded and should work just fine on any pokemon. I recently made some changes to all the weather code, and Forecast was part of it IIRC. Forecast doesn't change Castform's sprite in Shoddy, from what I remember -- and I won't be changing that any time soon. If anyone is stupid enough to choose a CAP ability because of spriting implications, then you have seriously missed the point of this project.
I know I haven't read through this entire thread, but has anyone thought of having another pokemon with Super Luck? I haven't seen anyone really mention it, and it would fit the concept nicely IMO. If it comes to pass, I could see a glass-cannon pokemon that would kind of rely on the high crit chance, having most of the high crit moves currently in the game. Its Defensive stats would be horrendous, but it would have good Attack and speed to make up for it.
I'd like to think of this pokemon as being part Poison, so Poison types would have something besides Gengar, and also because I don't want another Dark type with this ability. Ice could be the secondary type, giving it weaknesses to Fire, Ground, Psychic, Rock, and Steel. This typing would make Defensive capabilities sub-par due to weaknesses to things like Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Flamethrower, which seem to be pretty common moves. In general, I picture it as a frailer, faster, and harder-hitting version of Gallade.
On another note, I'd also like to see Skill Link on a Pokemon. A Rock/Ground or Ice/Ground would be excellent. Bone Rush would be great by itself, but I'd also like to see it as a good candidate for Gravity teams. Icicle Spear would give decent type coverage and accuracy as a secondary move, whereas Rock Blast gives brute force. Since I like my glass cannons, I vote for this to be another one. If you wanted a base design, I could picture an evo of Marowak.
I'd like to think of this pokemon as being part Poison, so Poison types would have something besides Gengar, and also because I don't want another Dark type with this ability. Ice could be the secondary type, giving it weaknesses to Fire, Ground, Psychic, Rock, and Steel. This typing would make Defensive capabilities sub-par due to weaknesses to things like Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Flamethrower, which seem to be pretty common moves. In general, I picture it as a frailer, faster, and harder-hitting version of Gallade.
On another note, I'd also like to see Skill Link on a Pokemon. A Rock/Ground or Ice/Ground would be excellent. Bone Rush would be great by itself, but I'd also like to see it as a good candidate for Gravity teams. Icicle Spear would give decent type coverage and accuracy as a secondary move, whereas Rock Blast gives brute force. Since I like my glass cannons, I vote for this to be another one. If you wanted a base design, I could picture an evo of Marowak.
Hey, now, Skill Link is not a bad ability. Substitute is an extremely common move, and something able to break through that would be useful. Also, look at Bone Rush and Rock Blast. 125 power/80 accuracy is really quite good. It certainly beats Stone Edge in Rock Blast's case, and it's equal in expected power to EQ in Bone Rush's case. Combine that with Rock/Ground's good coverage, and you've got something quite formidable. It helps that Spike Cannon becomes as strong as Return, too. And of course, Bone Rush can break through those annoying Shuca Berries that show up these days.
Still, I'd rather see Reckless be taken advantage of. Reckless Head Smash, anyone?
Breloom always were very annoying Pokemon to face, but suddenly they became a lot less frightening...
Well, that's an error on my part. I had still thought all moves were 18 power still. Yea, that would leave us with a suitable pokemon.
Actually, I ALREADY have Stall working - not to mention Quick Claw, Custap Berry, Recycle, and much, much more (including custom type support for interested mod servers)! It's all a part of my Epically Awesome Patch-Thing I've kept "on the down-low" (that is, not making big announcements on it) for quite awhile. It's been a long bumpy road, and I've had to backtrack and restart more times than I've cared to keep count of; but, I'm still getting there, step by step. (It'd be easier if PT8Sceptile hadn't vanished off the face of the earth before giving me his doubles code, but alas...)
Either way, I'm trying my darndest to make Shoddy better, but there ARE limitations to what Java can do (that is, no animations or fancy stuff like that; I guess it's called "Shoddy Battle" for a reason). I'm working on doubles, but I have a stable build with all the features and bug-fixes you can handle, ready and waiting for integration whenever you guys are ready to help (I'm just a coder, so I don't know how to go about implementing it; also, DougJustDoug might want to merge some of his changes in there, since I have no idea which ones are there). There's ONE small change servers will have to make, but it's nothing too big; we'll get through it and have a better Shoddy experience because of it.
On topic: Own Tempo sounds nice to switch in on Swagger (and other confuse moves, of course) and use Outrage with impunity, but Shield Dust + Encored Fake Out = free turn.
Scrappy gives Normal types some much-needed freedom. It completely defeats the idea of a Rapid Spin blocker, making stall much more viable in today's metagame. Having Explosion and Selfdestruct hit Ghosts is a great plus, too.
Mold Breaker is also a good ability to put on a more stall-oriented, defensive Pokemon. Rampardos really can't make any use of it at all, given its paper-thin defenses. Mold Breaker could be as good, if not better, than Trace - nullifying Salamence and Gyarados's Intimidate, Blissey and Celebi's Natural Cure, Stallrein's Ice Body, etc. It even nullifies Trace itself.
Mold Breaker is also a good ability to put on a more stall-oriented, defensive Pokemon. Rampardos really can't make any use of it at all, given its paper-thin defenses. Mold Breaker could be as good, if not better, than Trace - nullifying Salamence and Gyarados's Intimidate, Blissey and Celebi's Natural Cure, Stallrein's Ice Body, etc. It even nullifies Trace itself.
I would have to go for Dry Skin, and Scrappy. These abilities are neglected in OU and I'm giving my 2 cents.
Dry skin could possibly get rid of fire's biggest weakness in water which could help offensively and defensively
Scrappy with rapid spin is all I can see that would help my team, but fighting moves against pokemon like Gengar, Rotom, and Kit being effective would be a good bonus.
Dry skin could possibly get rid of fire's biggest weakness in water which could help offensively and defensively
Scrappy with rapid spin is all I can see that would help my team, but fighting moves against pokemon like Gengar, Rotom, and Kit being effective would be a good bonus.
I think I saw this mentioned before, but I think Drought should be up for debate. It could give new life to Sunny Day teams, and can also help hinder Sandstream users to an extent. (removing Tyranitar's Sp.Def increase at the same time hitting him with Solarbeam could be helpful). Also it can help some Synthesis users, which might be a bit powerful on the pokemon itself.
Simple is an okay choice, but its effects can't be baton passed like someone said before, and you really do not want Nasty Plot/Swords Dance/Dragon Dance on it either.
Slow Start is a pretty shitty ability to begin with, only good if CAP8 could use Skill Swap, though I see no problem putting it on a defensive pokemon. And it would most likely have to be Psychic I think, because the majority of the Skill Swap users are Psychic.
Scrappy is a bit situational and if we are making a Pokemon based around an neglected ability, I don't think it would be the best choice, if not the worst; unless of course it had Rapid Spin which could be detrimental to stall teams. But Magic Guard is way more broken.
Mold Breaker sounds good, but I think its use will dwindle once everyone gets used to it. It might even be good but it is a bit like scrappy as in being situational.(although hitting Rotom appliances with Earthquake would be nice. :P)
Static is a decent if not good choice; if you can manage put it on a Sp. Def powerhouse to warrant a Physical move.(which makes up most contact moves) Although it is a bit unreliable.
Flame Body is in the same boat as Static, but it can deminish physical threats even more.
Skill Link is a very good choice; it would make a good counter to Breloom and other substitute users, if typing permits it.
Forecast, Multitype, Magic Guard, Wonder Guard, and Color Change shouldn't be discussed. These are either broken or too unreliable to use, and the whole point of this is to make a pokemon based on decent ability that can be used in every situation, or at least that's what I think is going on. Whether or not they are fun doesn't really dictate if it should be used or not.
Just my two cents.
Also, has it been decided whether this CAP will be offensive or defensive?
Simple is an okay choice, but its effects can't be baton passed like someone said before, and you really do not want Nasty Plot/Swords Dance/Dragon Dance on it either.
Slow Start is a pretty shitty ability to begin with, only good if CAP8 could use Skill Swap, though I see no problem putting it on a defensive pokemon. And it would most likely have to be Psychic I think, because the majority of the Skill Swap users are Psychic.
Scrappy is a bit situational and if we are making a Pokemon based around an neglected ability, I don't think it would be the best choice, if not the worst; unless of course it had Rapid Spin which could be detrimental to stall teams. But Magic Guard is way more broken.
Mold Breaker sounds good, but I think its use will dwindle once everyone gets used to it. It might even be good but it is a bit like scrappy as in being situational.(although hitting Rotom appliances with Earthquake would be nice. :P)
Static is a decent if not good choice; if you can manage put it on a Sp. Def powerhouse to warrant a Physical move.(which makes up most contact moves) Although it is a bit unreliable.
Flame Body is in the same boat as Static, but it can deminish physical threats even more.
Skill Link is a very good choice; it would make a good counter to Breloom and other substitute users, if typing permits it.
Forecast, Multitype, Magic Guard, Wonder Guard, and Color Change shouldn't be discussed. These are either broken or too unreliable to use, and the whole point of this is to make a pokemon based on decent ability that can be used in every situation, or at least that's what I think is going on. Whether or not they are fun doesn't really dictate if it should be used or not.
Just my two cents.
Also, has it been decided whether this CAP will be offensive or defensive?
How exactly is both abilities are considered broken and why is being a detrimental to Stall such a horrible thing? Shouldn't we increase the ways one could counteract Stall thus increasing new tactics?
Wait...but Static and Flame Body aren't reliable, so wouldn't that be somewhat counterproductive?
I think it would be interesting to make a defensive Pokemon that has the speed and power to scare away many agressive attackers, but is weak enough that a sturdy attacker can beat it. That is, speed and defenses both, but attack power lacking enough to only 2HKO the frailest of sweepers (but also who doesn't get OHKOd back). It should be able to break through extremely wallish Pokemon, as well, so that it is thwarted by those with a balance of offense and defense.
This would encourage some differing stall tactics (which is well-loved).
I find that many of the bulkiest Pokemon are water-types, which makes Grass a particularly nice type to throw STAB support for. However, Grass is a fairly weak type defensively, so it would need to be paired with a nice defensive type, such as Dragon or Steel (the latter of which would make an extreme Fire weakness, so I'm going to dismiss it). Grass/Dragon would be an interesting type combination, because it's weak to Ice like many of the other dragon powerhouses. In addition, Dragon is an excellent type-coverage attack, only resisted by Steel. This would give it a tool to use against an average sweeper.
If the ability was Solar Power, however, even Steel-types would have to worry about the double powered-up Fire-type attacks. This would give very wide coverage, and it might then become a threat.
Sunny Day / Solarbeam / Fire-attack / Dragon-attack would be a kind of set to consider - but typically would only be used to get out Sunny Day and then try to bulky sweep, meaning it pretty much would be better with a Life Orb and just swinging from the get-go...
However, it would be interesting if this Pokemon had two Neglected abilities. What if it had both Mold Breaker and Solar Power to choose from?
And what if it had access to a small selection of good special attacks (solarbeam, flamethrower, dragon pulse) and a small selection of good physical attacks (crunch, earthquake, power whip?)
The Mold Breaker set would love it for the Levitate-negation, plus the ability to not accidentally power-up Flash Fire switch-ins.
In this way, it would be interesting because people wouldn't be able to predict what the set is: a sunny bulky sort-of-sweeper, or a mold breaking wall-breaker anti-sweeper
I picture it being speedy for such a wallish Pokemon - it would have bulky defenses moreso than anything else, and its attacks will be fairly weak if neutral. However, the ability to surprise (hitting a weaker defense than suspected, for example) and to hit for neutral or super effective damage easily would make it force switches from time to time --- so it would have the speed to support that. Especially if it has Solar Power, it requires the speed to strike without being worn down too much by the burn of the sun. It'd take a hit anyway having to set up the Sunny Day, usually, so I think speed is important to have if Solar Power is the ability - especially against enemies who'd have Chlorophyll!
Of course, there are other options. A Scrappy Rapid Spinner is neat (but a no-brainer), and could easily be typed up to avoid the usual rapid spin blockers (it has to be able to take Ghost hits) and perhaps even deal with the hazard-users as it is (Grass would be good against Rock-types, but has to watch out for Poison-types - Grass/[something that resists poison] is a possibility, such as the previously-mentioned Grass/Steel). If it's a Grass/Steel, it would be neat to have the choice between Scrappy and Filter - since it would then not be quite as weak against fire as your opponent might think.
( Yes, I'm championing Grass as a type to choose overall )
I also think Static is too unreliable - there are a great deal of physical non-contact moves, and far more special non-contact moves... it's just too hard to predict actually coming into play. It only happens sometimes, and only when it's actually struck with a contact move. It would be great if it was 100%, on any physical (but not special) move, but that's not how Static is...
This would encourage some differing stall tactics (which is well-loved).
I find that many of the bulkiest Pokemon are water-types, which makes Grass a particularly nice type to throw STAB support for. However, Grass is a fairly weak type defensively, so it would need to be paired with a nice defensive type, such as Dragon or Steel (the latter of which would make an extreme Fire weakness, so I'm going to dismiss it). Grass/Dragon would be an interesting type combination, because it's weak to Ice like many of the other dragon powerhouses. In addition, Dragon is an excellent type-coverage attack, only resisted by Steel. This would give it a tool to use against an average sweeper.
If the ability was Solar Power, however, even Steel-types would have to worry about the double powered-up Fire-type attacks. This would give very wide coverage, and it might then become a threat.
Sunny Day / Solarbeam / Fire-attack / Dragon-attack would be a kind of set to consider - but typically would only be used to get out Sunny Day and then try to bulky sweep, meaning it pretty much would be better with a Life Orb and just swinging from the get-go...
However, it would be interesting if this Pokemon had two Neglected abilities. What if it had both Mold Breaker and Solar Power to choose from?
And what if it had access to a small selection of good special attacks (solarbeam, flamethrower, dragon pulse) and a small selection of good physical attacks (crunch, earthquake, power whip?)
The Mold Breaker set would love it for the Levitate-negation, plus the ability to not accidentally power-up Flash Fire switch-ins.
In this way, it would be interesting because people wouldn't be able to predict what the set is: a sunny bulky sort-of-sweeper, or a mold breaking wall-breaker anti-sweeper
I picture it being speedy for such a wallish Pokemon - it would have bulky defenses moreso than anything else, and its attacks will be fairly weak if neutral. However, the ability to surprise (hitting a weaker defense than suspected, for example) and to hit for neutral or super effective damage easily would make it force switches from time to time --- so it would have the speed to support that. Especially if it has Solar Power, it requires the speed to strike without being worn down too much by the burn of the sun. It'd take a hit anyway having to set up the Sunny Day, usually, so I think speed is important to have if Solar Power is the ability - especially against enemies who'd have Chlorophyll!
Of course, there are other options. A Scrappy Rapid Spinner is neat (but a no-brainer), and could easily be typed up to avoid the usual rapid spin blockers (it has to be able to take Ghost hits) and perhaps even deal with the hazard-users as it is (Grass would be good against Rock-types, but has to watch out for Poison-types - Grass/[something that resists poison] is a possibility, such as the previously-mentioned Grass/Steel). If it's a Grass/Steel, it would be neat to have the choice between Scrappy and Filter - since it would then not be quite as weak against fire as your opponent might think.
( Yes, I'm championing Grass as a type to choose overall )
I also think Static is too unreliable - there are a great deal of physical non-contact moves, and far more special non-contact moves... it's just too hard to predict actually coming into play. It only happens sometimes, and only when it's actually struck with a contact move. It would be great if it was 100%, on any physical (but not special) move, but that's not how Static is...
Guys, please, NO scrappy spin. It is far too much to let a team have a foolproof way to blow away entry hazards after another team have spent 6 turns to put them up. At least, putting up entry hazards require a bit of care, looking for free switch-ins to set up those spikes/rocks. At least, Foresight/Rapid Spin required a risk on the user's part (since the Spin user will likely get hit hard from the ghost).
But a Scrappy Spin is too much of a no-brainer choice. If you want something to fight stall, go for Magic Guard. But please, leave Scrappy Spin out of the picture.
But a Scrappy Spin is too much of a no-brainer choice. If you want something to fight stall, go for Magic Guard. But please, leave Scrappy Spin out of the picture.
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