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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Concept Assessment
- Thread starter cyberzero
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Flame Body and Static are very unreliable but can be gamebreaking if used on an actually decent defensive pokemon able to take hits. It's not something you can base a Pokemon on though, as it is a 30% chance for both to work; and at that they have to make contact. I'm not saying it is the best ability to work with, but it is certainly not the worst.
Magic Guard on the other hand is a very powerful ability; one that should(if the community decided on it) be handled with care. If anything it will probably make stall teams just have pokemon to beat it or some anti-ability move. Even so, I won't complain if there's another anti-stall pokemon around. >.>
Scrappy is an ability that will only works against ghosts. Just by saying that it's a limited ability by itself. However, if this pokemon has Rapid Spin, it is a different matter and therefore could be viable for use against Rapid Spin countering. If it doesn't have Rapid Spin, it's a rather useless ability unless you are Normal/Fighting and decided to go with two support moves or something like that. Other than that, the ability isn't good enough to base a pokemon around. If anything it's just a bonus to not use a spare moveslot to hit ghosts. I never said it was broken, far from it. Although now I see after rereading my post I said Magic Guard was more broken so sorry about the confusion.
Magic Coat because SR is very annoying.
My thoughts.
Color Change has been mentioned but seriously how will that help against choice users when you have to switch it into the user in the first place? You're not going to switch into CBtar's Crunch so you can get a resist next turn (good luck in losing most of your life), the only case in which you would switch into a choice user is if you resist the attack or have Blissey style defences so this is pretty useless.
Mold Breaker could be a cool stall breaker on something with a powerful CB STAB Earthquake something like Donphan except ~250 Speed that forces stall teams to predict well or have a member take >50% damage and screw their Cresselia, Rotoms, Celebis etc. Static is alright but inconsistent (only against me it seems to work) and stall teams won't give a shit to be honest. Not only that but presumably an electric type would get it and people would just use EQ to bypass it. Simple If something similar to Floatzel got it I think this could be a cool ass sweeping aid, as long as it had tools to deal with Arghonaut. And Gliscor---> poke could be quite broken
Magic Guard is my favourite so far as you've probably guessed I want to nerf stall give this a lot of weaks to balance it out and you're good.
Color Change has been mentioned but seriously how will that help against choice users when you have to switch it into the user in the first place? You're not going to switch into CBtar's Crunch so you can get a resist next turn (good luck in losing most of your life), the only case in which you would switch into a choice user is if you resist the attack or have Blissey style defences so this is pretty useless.
Mold Breaker could be a cool stall breaker on something with a powerful CB STAB Earthquake something like Donphan except ~250 Speed that forces stall teams to predict well or have a member take >50% damage and screw their Cresselia, Rotoms, Celebis etc. Static is alright but inconsistent (only against me it seems to work) and stall teams won't give a shit to be honest. Not only that but presumably an electric type would get it and people would just use EQ to bypass it. Simple If something similar to Floatzel got it I think this could be a cool ass sweeping aid, as long as it had tools to deal with Arghonaut. And Gliscor---> poke could be quite broken
Magic Guard is my favourite so far as you've probably guessed I want to nerf stall give this a lot of weaks to balance it out and you're good.
I'm shooting for Magic Guard as well. Although Clefable, the main abuser of the ability, has uses for it (Toxic Orb-abuse FTW), it nonetheless can't establish itself as a suitably strong Pokemon (lack of raw stats, major inferiority to specialized sweepers, tanks, etc) to make it into OU, so Magic Guard still remains one of the abilities that is being undeservedly ignored in Standard. Hopefully CAP 8 can correct that.
In addition, I support Magic Guard since it's an ability that, despite being exceptional as a passive ability, truly shines when planted on a Pokemon with stats and a movepool specifically built around it. And that's not all; while some of the abilities on the Allowed list lock the CAP in a certain direction (Static and Rough Skin demand tanks, Rock Head and, say, Hustle demand offensively minded Pokemon), Magic Guard comfortably accommodates several directions in which the CAP can go. We could make a Life Orb sweeper capable of shrugging off that annoying 10% recoil. We can make Focus Sashers which would otherwise fall to Sand Stream. We can make tanks which can shrug off Toxic and Burns without wasting a turn on Aromatherapy.
Anyway, as a passive ability, almost any Pokemon, fragile or bulky, would love Magic Guard for its divine protection against Sandstorms, Stealth Rocks and the random Toxic, all of which are practically everywhere.
My point is made.
In addition, I support Magic Guard since it's an ability that, despite being exceptional as a passive ability, truly shines when planted on a Pokemon with stats and a movepool specifically built around it. And that's not all; while some of the abilities on the Allowed list lock the CAP in a certain direction (Static and Rough Skin demand tanks, Rock Head and, say, Hustle demand offensively minded Pokemon), Magic Guard comfortably accommodates several directions in which the CAP can go. We could make a Life Orb sweeper capable of shrugging off that annoying 10% recoil. We can make Focus Sashers which would otherwise fall to Sand Stream. We can make tanks which can shrug off Toxic and Burns without wasting a turn on Aromatherapy.
Anyway, as a passive ability, almost any Pokemon, fragile or bulky, would love Magic Guard for its divine protection against Sandstorms, Stealth Rocks and the random Toxic, all of which are practically everywhere.
My point is made.
In my opinion, Rock Head is a great ability that has unfortunately fallen into obscurity because not many Pokémon carry it. However, most of the recoil moves are very powerful, so this would make a great offensive ability on something like a physical sweeper.
I also think Gluttony would be a good candidate for an ability. Being able to use a pinch berry earlier than usual could make our Pokémon a threatening sweeper earlier on and let it survive a bit longer than by using a pinch berry normally.
I also think Gluttony would be a good candidate for an ability. Being able to use a pinch berry earlier than usual could make our Pokémon a threatening sweeper earlier on and let it survive a bit longer than by using a pinch berry normally.
Quoting KR's post as it seems to have gotten lost but it's really useful.
The three tick boxes for Abilities to be considered:
Reliable
Beneficial
Metagame Oriented
Any Ability we choose should be considered in relation to these rules. I don't see how we can base a CAP around an unreliable Ability like Static when it only works 30% of the time.
For this reason I would want Static, Flame Body, Effect Spore moved to Unallowed. I also think that confusion is such a rare status that Own Tempo and Tangled Feet are too situational to be of use.
Also cyber, you have to be consistent in your decision making - don't have Poison Point Unallowed but then allow Static and Flame Body, they're basically variations on a theme.
I figured I should quote this in order to directly respond.
Stall - a pretty useless Ability considering it is the same as giving CAP8 4 base speed stat. Why should we consider an Ability that can basically be achieved for free with the stat spread?
Tinted Lens - this is apretty powerful sweeping Ability and is very handy for CAP8 purposes as it can be added to pretty much any typing. Even a crappy offensive typing like Poison/Steel could be used with Tinted Lens and as such it deserves moving to Allowed. That Yanmega already has it is moot if it's hardly ever used - same for Air Lock on Rev. If you allow Air Lock you should Definitely allow Tinted Lens.
Scrappy - Yes it kills Stall but we could easy make it balanced - Bug/Fire? That way it could switch in and get rid of SR but would take 50% damage. That's a bit extreme but there are several ways to make this work. Allowed I say.
Wonder Guard - completely depends on the typing. I say as long as the type we choose has 5+ weaknesses that are relatively common, this is workable. We would have to be very careful with the stats and movepool but think how much we could learn about creating pokemon by doing something so extreme? Allowed please (at least until the typing poll is done)!
Slow Start - this should be Unallowed. It is a complete gimmick Ability considering it confers NO advantage on the pokemon. If we go by Kamen Rider's rules - it fails to be Beneficial to CAP8 and therefore should be ruled out.
Forecast - Pretty difficult to make this viable. Decent option for a hail sweeper. If we chose a typing like Electric/Fighting that could benefit from Ice STAB this would be pretty decent. Only thing is it might not get used much since Forecast doesn't work in a Sandstorm and Hail and Rain aren't very common. Sun isn't used.
Snow Warning - This doesn't necessarily Have to be Ice - doesn't it confer auto immunity to Hail? If it does, then an Electric type could have STAB Thunderbolt and Snow Warning to have a pseudo-Ice STAB.
Allow - but the community wouldn't vote for it.
Rough Skin - If this was used on a defensive pokemon that can absorb Hail or Sandstorm (Ice, Rock, Steel, Ground) then it could be a major stalling force. Combined with SR and Spikes and possibly toxic spikes, CAP8 would be difficult to take down. IMO, a rock type would be great due to the added SP.D from sandstorm.
Actually, I thought about using Slow start to my advantage on a Doubles team. Here's how its done:
Put slow start on an already slow special attacker. Use it in a TR team, which would make it much slower, therefore it suffers none from the loss of attack and actually helps it outspeed stuff.
Actually, I thought about using Slow start to my advantage on a Doubles team. Here's how its done:
Put slow start on an already slow special attacker. Use it in a TR team, which would make it much slower, therefore it suffers none from the loss of attack and actually helps it outspeed stuff.
Are you serious? The damage Rough Skin does is the same as a turn of Hail/Sandstorm - which is not that great - but also requires the opponent to use a contact attack. Now, look at the types you listed. Do you realize all them draw non-contact attacks (Surf, Earthquake, Flamethrower) like a magnet?
And I should waste an Ability for a temporary benefit (just 5 turns) which I could obtain with a proper stat spread or even through a Macho Brace? Tossing out great choices like Magic Guard or Tinted Lens?
Please guys, accept it. Some abilities are crap. Period. Why should we want to give them to our CAP for the sake of their crappiness? Remember also that, once we arrive to the Ability poll, we will have already decided the stats and the typing. Why should we nerf a probably-balanced base with a crappy ability?
I completely support Jagged Angel and Kamenrider point (even jagged's comment about Scrappy... maybe, if it had a 4X Rock weakness it could not be overpowered, even with Rapid Spin)
Some Neglected abilities that I think could be cool, and how they would be put to use:
Scrappy - Scrappy on a Fighting/Normal Pokemon would allow for two-move perfect STAB coverage, allowing for sets like ResTalk/Return/Cross Chop or Curse/Recover/Return/Cross Chop to be really powerful. This Pokemon would also resist Dark and be Immune to Ghost, making it a good partner to most Psychic/Ghosts. Another interesting choice would be a Scrappy Rapid Spinner, either on this same Pokemon or on a different one. A Scrappy Ghost would be particularly interesting, especially if it could Spin as well. It would allow teams to run their spinner and Spin Blocker in the same package, which would be cool (although a little counterproductive if every team could do it).
Adaptability/Tinted Lens - Either of these moves on a Pokemon with a powerful offensive typing would be quite useful. Adaptability seems like it would be particularly powerful on a Pokemon with near-perfect neutral STAB coverage, such as Fighting/Ghost, Fighting/Dark, Electric/Ice, Ghost/Electric, Dragon/Fighting, etc. Tinted Lens, on the other hand, would shine on something with traditionally poor coverage, such as Psychic, Poison, or Grass.
Reckless/Rock Head - These abilities are on some commonly used Pokemon, but nothing with the movepool to take advantage of them. Moves like Flare Blitz, Wood Hammer, Head Smash, Brave Bird, Hi Jump Kick, and Double Edge could become quite powerful if backed by a boost or a negation of the drawback.
Download - On something with more Mixed Sweeping potential, this could be quite useful. On Pory-z, you're limited to just switching in to Physical walls if you want the proper boost, but on something with the versatility of Infernape, the ability to pick up either boost could be insanely good.
No Guard - Only ever seen on Machamp, this would be quite interesting to see on a Special Sweeper (100% accurate Fire Blast, Blizzard, Thunder, Zap Cannon, Focus Blast, etc) or even a Support Pokemon (100% accurate Hypnosis, Stun Spore, Toxic, Will-o-wisp, Leech Seed, etc).
Scrappy - Scrappy on a Fighting/Normal Pokemon would allow for two-move perfect STAB coverage, allowing for sets like ResTalk/Return/Cross Chop or Curse/Recover/Return/Cross Chop to be really powerful. This Pokemon would also resist Dark and be Immune to Ghost, making it a good partner to most Psychic/Ghosts. Another interesting choice would be a Scrappy Rapid Spinner, either on this same Pokemon or on a different one. A Scrappy Ghost would be particularly interesting, especially if it could Spin as well. It would allow teams to run their spinner and Spin Blocker in the same package, which would be cool (although a little counterproductive if every team could do it).
Adaptability/Tinted Lens - Either of these moves on a Pokemon with a powerful offensive typing would be quite useful. Adaptability seems like it would be particularly powerful on a Pokemon with near-perfect neutral STAB coverage, such as Fighting/Ghost, Fighting/Dark, Electric/Ice, Ghost/Electric, Dragon/Fighting, etc. Tinted Lens, on the other hand, would shine on something with traditionally poor coverage, such as Psychic, Poison, or Grass.
Reckless/Rock Head - These abilities are on some commonly used Pokemon, but nothing with the movepool to take advantage of them. Moves like Flare Blitz, Wood Hammer, Head Smash, Brave Bird, Hi Jump Kick, and Double Edge could become quite powerful if backed by a boost or a negation of the drawback.
Download - On something with more Mixed Sweeping potential, this could be quite useful. On Pory-z, you're limited to just switching in to Physical walls if you want the proper boost, but on something with the versatility of Infernape, the ability to pick up either boost could be insanely good.
No Guard - Only ever seen on Machamp, this would be quite interesting to see on a Special Sweeper (100% accurate Fire Blast, Blizzard, Thunder, Zap Cannon, Focus Blast, etc) or even a Support Pokemon (100% accurate Hypnosis, Stun Spore, Toxic, Will-o-wisp, Leech Seed, etc).
Compoundeyes would be great as it allows a bunch of otherwise unviable moves to become rather viable. Heightened accuracy on moves such as Will O Wisp, Glare, Lovely Kiss etc. would make them reliable.
Rough Skin is very neglected as is. If put on a defensive pokémon you could predict contact moves and switch it in to rack up damage.
Mold Breaker is something I'd seriously want to see on an offensive ground type to deal with those damn levitators. Hell, cancelling out Swift Swim and other similar abilities would be great as well.
Rough Skin is very neglected as is. If put on a defensive pokémon you could predict contact moves and switch it in to rack up damage.
Mold Breaker is something I'd seriously want to see on an offensive ground type to deal with those damn levitators. Hell, cancelling out Swift Swim and other similar abilities would be great as well.
I think Absol pretty much has Super Luck covered. Even though he's UU, or maybe NU, he's got a killer atk stat and a move pool that makes great use of the trait. Night Slash, Psycho Cut, and X-Scissor all have hit CH ratios. Absol's main issue is speed (70 BS) which is remedied by a choice scarf quite well. That aside there are a lot of people willing to do anything to keep chance out of Pokemon, so I don't think it's really an idea that would be explored.
@Ellington: I'm pretty sure Swift Swim doesn't count as "An Ability that hinders attacks" and is excluded from the effects of Mold Breaker.
@wildfire393: I don't really think No Guard is a good opinion. Machamp is pretty much king of the hill when it comes to No Guard seeing as how 90% of all Machamps use that ability. The whole point of a lot of the listed attacks have low accuracy is that they would become broken if they could hit everytime.
Shadow Tag is an awful idea. Unless you want CAP8 to either be doomed to Dugtrio's role or just shunned and stuck into Ubers. The whole reason why both current Shadow Tag users are in ubers is that the ability totally ruins the idea of switching in counters.
It would probably not be a bad idea by this point to consider which types and builds should go with each potential ability, and what direction they should send the project in. As for the abilities I support:
Scrappy - Definitely should be a normal or fighting type, probably physical and offensive. We could give it rapid spin, but should be careful not to kill stall teams. This may even have an interesting effect of forcing stall teams to rely more on other forms of passive damage, like hail and poison, making pokes like yanmega, arcticuno, or compoundeyes scylant more viable.
Tinted lens - this guy will probably end up offensive, and probably with a poor attacking type (poison/steel?). I'm thinking this might end up as a reverse electevire, with great attack power and terrible coverage.
Mold breaker - most likely offensive. Fire, water, electric, and ground would all benefit from this ability.
Shield dust - this one's not quite as picky. It should probably be at least somewhat defensive. I personally think, if we use this, we should design it a counter for hax abusers like jirachi and togekiss.
Static - defensive, probably specially inclined to attract direct hits. Will most likely end up looking like Deck's para-busing tank.
By the way, I am very much in favor of Parad's order of operations vote.
Scrappy - Definitely should be a normal or fighting type, probably physical and offensive. We could give it rapid spin, but should be careful not to kill stall teams. This may even have an interesting effect of forcing stall teams to rely more on other forms of passive damage, like hail and poison, making pokes like yanmega, arcticuno, or compoundeyes scylant more viable.
Tinted lens - this guy will probably end up offensive, and probably with a poor attacking type (poison/steel?). I'm thinking this might end up as a reverse electevire, with great attack power and terrible coverage.
Mold breaker - most likely offensive. Fire, water, electric, and ground would all benefit from this ability.
Shield dust - this one's not quite as picky. It should probably be at least somewhat defensive. I personally think, if we use this, we should design it a counter for hax abusers like jirachi and togekiss.
Static - defensive, probably specially inclined to attract direct hits. Will most likely end up looking like Deck's para-busing tank.
By the way, I am very much in favor of Parad's order of operations vote.
I am serprised nobody has mentioned Drought and Drizzle.
They would add a massive variety to OU, making Sun and Rain weather based teams very viable. Lots of pokemon would make it into teams who previously wouldnt have been concidered, and people wouldnt have to worry about loseing health to Sandstorms anymore.
Of course we can only have one of the two, and I would put Drought forward first, as there are alot of bulky water types who can rain dance, and not so many pokemon who are bulky and use Sunny Day to thier benifit.
They would add a massive variety to OU, making Sun and Rain weather based teams very viable. Lots of pokemon would make it into teams who previously wouldnt have been concidered, and people wouldnt have to worry about loseing health to Sandstorms anymore.
Of course we can only have one of the two, and I would put Drought forward first, as there are alot of bulky water types who can rain dance, and not so many pokemon who are bulky and use Sunny Day to thier benifit.
Actually, X-Scissor is a "No extra effect beyond damaging the foe" attack, giving Absol only four HCrit moves: Slash, Stone Edge, Night Slash, and Psycho Cut. Besides, how many Absol do you see on a day-to-day basis? I'd like to see another 50% crit rate pokemon, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Drought and Drizzle are out of the question, look in the forum for the old weather test. While it may not be as reliable as today's suspect tests, it still clearly shows that Auto-weather is ridiculously broken under the offensive category and support categories. Shadow Tag is also completely out of the question, since that's arguably the only reason Wobbuffet/Wynaut are Uber, they take away the ability to send in a counter.
Also, @Jagged Angel:
I completely fail to see how you can call a 30% chance to completely cripple a Pokemon on your opponent's team for pretty much the rest of the game "unreliable", when Shield Dust is just as unreliable. The secondary chances are usually 10 or 20%, and there are significantly fewer Pokemon that use them. The only Pokemon that it would be useful against are Jirachi and Togekiss; the latter is rarely seen as is. Mold Breaker only activates if the opponent has an ability that would hinder your attack.
It is entirely beneficial to this Pokemon to be carrying Static or Flame Body, since with the right typing, while coming into key physical threats, you could cripple them WITHOUT DOING A THING. You can then set up, or predict the switch out. It could completely change the tide of a match. I understand that yes, not all moves are contact, and yes, it won't activate all the time. But not all abilities are useful 100% of the time.
@Kamen Rider: There is no ability that is reliable as much as you'd like. Even the more common ones aren't useful. Levitate only activates on Ground-type moves or Spikes/T-Spikes. Speed Boost only activates a max of 6 times in a row. Intimidate is only useful when you switch into a physical attacker. You see where I'm going? There is no reliable ability that's at the same time neglected.
Also, @Jagged Angel:
I completely fail to see how you can call a 30% chance to completely cripple a Pokemon on your opponent's team for pretty much the rest of the game "unreliable", when Shield Dust is just as unreliable. The secondary chances are usually 10 or 20%, and there are significantly fewer Pokemon that use them. The only Pokemon that it would be useful against are Jirachi and Togekiss; the latter is rarely seen as is. Mold Breaker only activates if the opponent has an ability that would hinder your attack.
It is entirely beneficial to this Pokemon to be carrying Static or Flame Body, since with the right typing, while coming into key physical threats, you could cripple them WITHOUT DOING A THING. You can then set up, or predict the switch out. It could completely change the tide of a match. I understand that yes, not all moves are contact, and yes, it won't activate all the time. But not all abilities are useful 100% of the time.
@Kamen Rider: There is no ability that is reliable as much as you'd like. Even the more common ones aren't useful. Levitate only activates on Ground-type moves or Spikes/T-Spikes. Speed Boost only activates a max of 6 times in a row. Intimidate is only useful when you switch into a physical attacker. You see where I'm going? There is no reliable ability that's at the same time neglected.
I've talked to a friend about this, and he stated a good point. Sunny Day and Rain Dance are more powerful than Hail and Sandstorm.
Sunny Day gives one of the most powerful Grass moves in the game, Solarbeam, some speed, while simultaneously powering up Fire moves, giving Chlorophyl and Solar Power boosts, and giving Synthesis/Moonlight/Morning Sun users alot more healing.Rain Dance, on the other hand, gives one of the most powerful Electric moves in the game perfect accuracy, while simultaneosly giving Water moves extra power, speed boosts through Swift Swim, and providing healing throgh Rain Dish and Dry Skin. compare with Sandstorm and (especially) Hail, and you'll notice a difference.
Another thing about Drought & Drizzle is that they're both currently Legendary-Only abilities. I'd like to think that there's a reason for that. I honestly hope that an OU Drought/Drizzle will come to pass, but unfortunately, the ability's power would have to be balanced with either sub-par stats or a shallow move pool IMO. Ah well, we can hope.
I think you are completely misunderstanding the idea of reliability. Reliable means "Whenever I need it, it will work 100% of the time". If I need Gengar to come in on a Ground attack safely, Levitate will work, no matter what. If I need to switch into a flincher without risking hax, Shield Dust/Inner Focus are foolproof. But if I need to burn/paralyze/poison something, I can't rely on Static/Flame Body/Posion Point, since they will activate only 30% of the time.
Calling Intimidate as unreliable as Static only shows how much you have failed to understand the concept of reliability.
@Xandzero: Drizzle/Drought would be broken even if they were introduced by a lv 5 Groudon/Kyogre, since, if you do not have a weather changer, you are left against a ton of overpowered sweepers waiting in the wings to maul you. Things like Kingdra would not absolutely be manageable under permanent Rain
Saddly, I know...
There are frightening few abilities that are reliable by your definition and neglected. I fail to see why we should limit ourselves to so few choices when we have abilities that are just as useful, and a bit less "reliable". As for your Gengar example, the opponent, with little effort, can just as easily nail you with another attack (for the sake of argument we'll assume Kitsunoh's Shadow Strike). Where's your reliability now? You fail to consider the opponent when calling something practically foolproof, since Pokemon is a game of two.
If the trainer misjudges and switches on a bad attack, I'd be tempted to say that that is the trainer's problem. Levitate doesn't save you from a bad move, it only protects ~99% against ground attacks -- If the opposing pokemon is only using ground attacks, levitate is for the most part reliable enough to save you from an otherwise super effective hit. I'm not sure your argument is addressing the right thing, tennis.
Of course there is also an opponent, but with this in mind we could throw out the concept of reliability out of the window. And by the way, what you said applies also to Static, Flame Body and Poison Point, with just a difference. With abilities like Levitate and Intimidate, if I predict correctly I'm granted what I need will happen 100% of the time. In the case of those three abilities, EVEN if I predict correctly, there is always a 70% possibilities that the ability do not do anything
And, honestly, I fail to see how are few the reliable ability. Once you realize what reliability means, you'll see that, aside from "chance" abilities like Static, Flame Body, Poison Point, Anger Point and Cute Charm, all the other abilites are reliable.
But maybe the problem is more with your vocabulary than with Pokémon abilities...
Just a nitpick, but Solarbeam is not technically the most powerful Grass move in the game. Frenzy Plant and Leaf Storm both have higher powers and Seed Flare and Wood Hammer have the same power. Additionally, Grass Knot in many common situations has the same power.
Also for Electric you neglected Volt Tackle, which also shares 120 base power.
Also, you neglect several important facts - both Hail and Sandstorm generate powerful residual damage and have several other beneficial effects. Sand Veil and Snow Veil may not be as strong as Swift Swim and Chlorophyll, but they can still swing the game in your favor. And Ice Body turns Wallrein into a nearly unkillable Beast. 100% Accurate Blizzard and +50% Special Defense for Rock Types aren't things to be scoffed at either.
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