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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 4 - Style Bias Discussion

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You guys seem to be forgetting something about abilities like Effect spore, Static etc. Namely the fact that they only can spring into effect if the user is hit with a contact move. As such, special moves will never trigger the effects and not even all physical moves will. Sure, the ability works best in Defensive/Somewhat Defensive but unless the pokemon in question is a physical wall it will not be able to put the ability to much use.

Further, Air lock has some offensive value as well as defensive, as it negates the Sandstorm boost on Rock pokemon and renders the user immune to its effects. I might be wrong, but wouldn't it also mean that opponents with Rain Dish, Ice Body, Sand Veil etc. also don't get any benefits from their corresponding weathers? Or does only Mold Breaker do take care of that?
 
These are my opinions on our possible abilities. I am hoping for a weather ability.

Aftermath- This is a pretty useless ability in my opinion.
Air Lock/Cloud Nine- This ability is more on the defensive side,
although it could help keep Kingdra in check.
Anticipation- Defensive
Chlorophyll- Offensive
Color Change- Useless
Compoundeyes- Offensive
Damp- Defensive
Early Bird- This could be anything.
Effect Spore- This also could be anything
Flower Gift- This would make a better offensive ability
Gluttony- Offensive
Hustle- Offensive
Iron Fist- Offensive
Leaf Guard- Anything
Marvel Scale- Defensive
Mold Breaker- Leaning towards offensive
Poison Point- Anything
Quick Feet- Offensive
Reckless- Offensive
Rock Head- Offensive
Rough Skin- Not that good
Shield Dust- Anything
Skill Link- Offensive
Solar Power- Offensive
Soundproof- Defensive
Static- Anything
Suction Cups- Defensive
Synchronize- Defensive
Tangled Feet- Offensive
Thick Fat- Defensive
Tinted Lens- Offensive
Trace- Anything
Unburden- Offensive

My long two cents.
 
Okay, so I believe that the following two abilities have been misplaced:

Aftermath is only listed in defensive. While it can be effective there, offensive pokemon could use it much better. Since they die more easily, it could punish someone for killing it. While there are better abilities, I recomend Aftermath be added to Somewhat Offensive as they could use it equally as well as the others, if not better. Aftermath could allow something an extra turn to sweep, as the opponent might hesitate in killing it with a physical move.

Also, Tinted Lens is only on pure offensive. As it gives no defensive advantage, it should not be on either defensive biases. But, it would likely work the best on a somewhat offensive pokemon. As it provides makeshift coverage, a pokemon is only really required to run two STABs allowing for more support moves. This makes it perfectly fit to a Somewhat offensive pokemon. It already has perfect coverage with its STABs+Tinted Lens, so the pokemon could run two support moves along side. With Tinted Lens, there is no point in adding something like a Hidden Power, when you already have great coverage. That spot would be better used on something like a stat-up or healing move. So I recomend Tinted Lens be added to Somewhat Offensive, as a purely offensive pokemon would not have the defenses to use support moves.
 
I agree with Hydrodolphin about Aftermath and his arguments for Tinted Lens are pretty good.

It is probably not something that will be voted for a defesive pokemon anyhow, but many defensive pokemon make good use of Chlorophyll/Swift Swim and since many Chlorophyll pokemon is somewhat defensive I think it should be added in the Somewhat Defensive group.

Also Tangled Feet is listed twice in the Somewhat Offensive group.
Maybe you could list them in alphabetical order, so the abilities are easier to manage for readers and TL?
 
hydrolphin said:
Also, Tinted Lens is only on pure offensive. As it gives no defensive advantage, it should not be on either defensive biases. But, it would likely work the best on a somewhat offensive pokemon. As it provides makeshift coverage, a pokemon is only really required to run two STABs allowing for more support moves. This makes it perfectly fit to a Somewhat offensive pokemon. It already has perfect coverage with its STABs+Tinted Lens, so the pokemon could run two support moves along side. With Tinted Lens, there is no point in adding something like a Hidden Power, when you already have great coverage. That spot would be better used on something like a stat-up or healing move. So I recomend Tinted Lens be added to Somewhat Offensive, as a purely offensive pokemon would not have the defenses to use support moves.

You mean compoudeyes?
Click to expand...

Quick feet and Yanmega's traits are used OK.

Hustle is Somewhat defensive for the fact that not many sweepers can afford to miss seeing as Fire blast is about as low as good can go while walls can afford to miss, but not Defensive, seeing they aren't supposed to have power.

Suction Cups is just Somewhat offensive/defensive. All out offense doesn't get to set up much, and as I stated above, defensive doesn't cut it for a set up CAP.
 
I'm going to address some of the abilities that I think are out of place, and tell you why they should be in another. This is just my opinion, though.

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Air Lock / Cloud Nine should be in the somewhat offensive category as well as in the defensive category. When using an extremely fast offensive Pokemon, like a Choice Scarfer or Agility user, this could come in handy as it would make weather abusers not outpace the Pokemon.

Compoundeyes should also be a defensive ability. If you're using a defensive wall of sorts that has status moves, like Hypnosis on Bronzong, then Compoundeyes would be incredibly helpful to make sure it hits, then you can switch to a sweeper or whatever.

Reckless should be added to the offensive list. It lets an offensive Pokemon do a TON of damage with recoil moves. Look at Hitmonlee. A popular set invented by Deck Knight called "RecklessLee" takes advantage of the power boost given by using recoil moves and lets Hitmonlee 2HKO Claydol, one of its biggest counters and sturdiest physical walls in UU.

Solar Power should also be added, as it lets the Pokemon power up its Special Attack by 50%. Imagine if this was used on a good Pokemon, instead of Sunflora and Tropius! It would make a great sweeper under the sun. So, I say, offensive list.

Tinted Lens is obviously offensive, so add that, too. I don't think it needs an explaination.

Also:
Paranoid212 said:
Suction Cups is just Somewhat offensive/defensive. All out offense doesn't get to set up much, and as I stated above, defensive doesn't cut it for a set up CAP.
Click to expand...

Suction Cups is great for all out offensive, as sweepers like Rayquaza and Salamence have very little counters outside of things Roaring them away after boosting up, and it would let the Pokemon sweep easier.

---

Thanks, and cyber, Tangled Feet is listed twice on the "Somewhat Offensive" list. : )
 
I rather choose the ability based on the typing, to maximize the benefits of this Pokemon.

Compoundeyes make great use of this forgotten move Dragon Rush, that is, if this turns out to be physically offensive.

Rock Head would be really nice for Volt Tackle, that is, if it actually gets to learn it (maybe as a level-up move).

Quick Feet is nice if it holds Flame Orb, burn it, and attack with SPECIAL ATTACKS, so the burn doesn't affect anything past the chronical damage.

Thick Fat is definitely a plus defensively, taking less damage from Ice, but the thing is, it's really not that neglected, for Snorlax is OU with Thick Fat...

Skill Link is great, for it being able to break substitutes, and there is no good Pokemon to use it right now since Cloyster is the only one with it and it's much better with Shell Armor.

Shield Dust is amazing, because the 2 Pokemon that messes with their Flinch-Hax are Jirachi with Iron Head and Togekiss with Air Slash. The Electric typing on this Pokemon resist both Steel and Flying type attacks. This is pretty much perfect. Even if Jirachi decides to use Thunder, it has a 30% chance of missing, and out of the 70% chances that hit, it only lands a .25x effective move.

Rough Skin is good on it if it has a good Special Defense, forcing opponents to attack it with Physical Attack and take damage. It's a nice torture.

Others are mediocre or unfit for Electric/Dragon, but anyways, my favorites are:

1. Compoundeyes
2. Shield Dust
3. Skill Link
 
Aftermath could make him an ultimate sweep stopper if he also got some priority. Imagine Fake out + Mach Punch + Aftermath. Especially if the opponent uses life orb, you could wear them out fast and stop them from sweeping your team. In that sense, it could be considered a defensive ability.
 
The_Bassoonist said:
Further, Air lock has some offensive value as well as defensive, as it negates the Sandstorm boost on Rock pokemon and renders the user immune to its effects. I might be wrong, but wouldn't it also mean that opponents with Rain Dish, Ice Body, Sand Veil etc. also don't get any benefits from their corresponding weathers? Or does only Mold Breaker do take care of that?
Click to expand...

You're right, Cloud Nine does negate those abilities. But also, Mold Breaker does not. Mold Breaker only negates abilities that affect the damage your move does. It nulls immunities, damage reduction, and, strangely, the damage increase on Fire moves from Dry Skin.
 
My feelings about this discussion tend to be that as we are only just now trying to figure out every potential possibility for an ability and thus classify it in only a few days before the actual poll, we are likely to make classification errors. It seems more beneficial to me to figure out exactly which abilities can only work with a certain style bias, and rather than actively trying to slot each and every ability simply acknowledge the ones that are more limited than others.

For example, what if Suction Cups had been voted to defensive, and then somebody comes in and realizes after the poll that it has applications for set-up sweepers? Too late, we are screwed. I hope people are realizing that ability classification is more complex than figuring out whether or not it hurts the enemy pokemon or prevents something to the pokemon that carries it.
Furthermore, if we had say, an abilty like "Frisk", where would it go? Most likely everywhere, and then we would not have a meaningful way of classifying it. Perhaps a better classification would have been along similar lines to the way that pokemon are determined to be uber by the three roles they play in the metagame: Offensive, Defensive, and Support.

Really, I just disagree with this idea of classification. Although I can understand why we want to have a strict process in creating a pokemon, I feel that this time around we could have used a little flexibility.
 
I think Flower Gift can be classified as Offensive/Somewhat offensive. When sunny, the attack boost is viable for both categories, but the special defense boost is useful in bulky offense, because it would allow the sweeper to take hits that would otherwise hider its sweep.
 
when I write one bias, I usually also mean the next step below it:

Aftermath- somewhat defensive through offensive. Frail sweeper means extra damage to the enemy when it goes down, tank (especially those with high hp) severe damage upon going down.

Air Lock/Cloud Nine- defensive all the way through offensive. defensively it means no damage in Sandstorm/Hail, offensively it negates Sandstorm boosts and other weather-based abilities. Just realised it could be a good check for Manaphy....

Anticipation- defensive/somewhat defensive. It's better on tanks to know if they should stay in or switch out.

Chlorophyll- all biases. Speed boosts are always welcome.

Color Change- defensive. if you can't take a hit, you won't get much out of this one

Compoundeyes- all biases. status-inflicters welcome it, as do sweepers with inaccurate moves.

Damp- all biases. anything that can't be exploded on is that much harder to take out.

Early Bird- Defensive/Somewhat defensive. one-turn rest is useful, but you need sufficient defences to pull it off

Effect Spore- Defensive/somewhat defensive. same reasons as above, but now you specifically need to take physical hits well

Flower Gift- All biases. since it also improves special defence, it can be used by a tank as a makeshift sandstrom boost as well as the added offenses

Gluttony- offensive. this could be really dangerous on the right pokemon.

Hustle- offensive. Imagine if someone with 100% accuracy moves (swift, Aura sphere etc) got this...

Iron Fist- offensive

Leaf Guard- all biases. temporary immunity to statuses. Tanks can't be Toxiced and sweepers can't be burned/paralysed

Marvel Scale- defensive

Mold Breaker- offensive

Poison Point- defensive. you need to take a hit for it to work

Quick Feet- offensive. just a pity it doesn't cancel out paralysis's effect.

Reckless- offensive. anything that's supposd to stay alive will not put this to much use

Rock Head- all biases. sweepers can attack more times and tanks get a stronger attack to work with

Rough Skin- defensive. no use if you can't take a hit

Shield Dust- all biases. anti-Hax benefits sweepers and tanks alike. does it block CH as well?

Skill Link-offensive. If the attack doesn't paclk enough punch, it's not much use.

will do the rest later
 
Aftermath - Aftermath is usable in all categories. In almost all instance, damaging the opponent is a positive thing.
Air Lock/Cloud Nine - Again, an ability that is usable in all categories. For defensive Pokemon, negation of weather allows for Leftovers recovery or weaker hits from opposing Pokemon. On a more offensively-oriented Pokemon, things like Swift Swimmers no longer outrun it, and Rock-types' (Tyranitar in particular) Special Defense bonus being negated makes it much easier to sweep.
Anticipation - This is more useful on a defensive or Somewhat Offensive. Because it has few weaknesses, a Pokemon carrying an attack that is different than what it usually carries (such as something carrying HP Ground to hit CaP8) and switch accordingly. It has little to no use on an all-out Offensive Pokemon.
Chlorophyll - Somewhat Offensive and Offensive. Walls have no need of speed.
Color Change - I guess this is Defensive and Somewhat Defensive, but I don't see any future for such an easily taken-advantage-of ability.
Compoundeyes - Again, all categories. If CaP8 gets status such as the Powders, Will-O-Wisp, or Hypnosis then the accuracy boost greatly benefits the more defensively-oriented biases. On a more offensive Pokemon, moves like Stone Edge and Blizzard become much more usable.
Damp - Defensive and Somewhat Defensive for obvious reasons.
Early Bird - All categories. Nothing likes Sleep, and waking up in a turn or two greatly benefits any Pokemon.
Effect Spore - All categories. Hitting an opposing Pokemon for Paralysis or Sleep is always positive.
Flower Gift - All categories. The Special Attack boost benefits sweepers, while the Special Defense boost benefits walls and tanks.
Gluttony -
Hustle - Offensive and Somewhat Offensive for obvious reasons.
Iron Fist - Offensive and Somewhat Offensive for obvious reasons.
Leaf Guard - Al categories because nothing likes status.
Marvel Scale - Defensive and Somewhat Defensive for obvious reasons.
Mold Breaker - Offensive and Somewhat Offensive for obvious reasons.
Poison Point - Stupid ability.
Quick Feet - Offensive and Somewhat Offensive because Levitators laugh at Earthquake.
Reckless - Offensive and Somewhat Offensive for obvious reasons.
Rock Head - Offensive and Somewhat Offensive for obvious reasons.
Rough Skin - Defensive only. This ability lets walls hit back a little, but it's a very subpar ability.
Shield Dust - All categories. Secondary effects are nasty
Skill Link - Offensive and Somewhat Offensive for obvious reasons.
Solar Power - Offensive and Somewhat Offensive for obvious reasons.
Soundproof - All categories. Immunity to Roar is great.
Static - All categories. Status-affliction is almost never bad.
Suction Cups - All categories. Being forced out after a load of stat-boosts can be irritating, as can being forced into something that makes you switch the next turn.
Synchronize - Defensive and Somewhat Defensive.
Tangled Feet - Defensive and Somewhat Defensive. Not being able to hit a wall you've confused is absolutely infuriating and could make a defensive CaP8 very annoying.
Thick Fat - Somewhat Defensive, Somewhat Offensive and Defensive. The extra resistances on mildly bulky Pokemon can be great.
Tinted Lens - Offensive and Somewhat Offensive for obvious reasons.
Trace - All categories. Very rarely is a copied ability bad.
Unburden - Offensive and Somewhat Offensive for obvious reasons.
 
What I don't get is...Skill Link in Somewhat Offensive. I mean, the only moves that benefit from Skill Link are attacking moves, no? So what does "Somewhat" have to do with it?

Gluttony I also think, should also be considered for Somewhat Defensive, as a SubPinch type of wall (SubApricotBlissey, might work) could benefit form gaining that (S)Def boost a bit earlier.
 
ZystraL said:
What I don't get is...Skill Link in Somewhat Offensive. I mean, the only moves that benefit from Skill Link are attacking moves, no? So what does "Somewhat" have to do with it?

Gluttony I also think, should also be considered for Somewhat Defensive, as a SubPinch type of wall (SubApricotBlissey, might work) could benefit form gaining that (S)Def boost a bit earlier.
Click to expand...
Somewhat Offensive refers to the Bias that the Pokemon will be. In more metagame-ish terms, offensive would be something like a sweeper, like Infernape. Somewhat offensive would be something that can sweep but isn't completely frail. Somewhat defensive is something that can take hits well but doesn't completely fail offensively, like Vaporeon, and defensive is something that can only take hits like Forretress.

Anyway, it's almost time for the Style Bias Poll! All that's left to do is look over the lists and see if there is anything that is missing. Remember, these lists are supposed to be very inclusive. Just check to see if there are any more abilities that can go in any more categories.
 
cyberzero said:
Remember, these lists are supposed to be very inclusive. Just check to see if there are any more abilities that can go in any more categories.
Click to expand...
In that case...

I noticed Effect Spore is in all four categories. I'm not 100% sure on why... I don't really see how Effect Spore is too much of an offensive ability, since it requires taking hits to activate...

But in any case, if they are to be offensive, I think Static (currently Somewhat Defensive and Defensive), and maybe Poison Point (currently just Somewhat Defensive) should also be in all four categories, as they follow the same route as Effect Spore, with the only difference being the status that is afflicted...


...Or something...
 
m190049 said:
In that case...

I noticed Effect Spore is in all four categories. I'm not 100% sure on why... I don't really see how Effect Spore is too much of an offensive ability, since it requires taking hits to activate...

But in any case, if they are to be offensive, I think Static (currently Somewhat Defensive and Defensive), and maybe Poison Point (currently just Somewhat Defensive) should also be in all four categories, as they follow the same route as Effect Spore, with the only difference being the status that is afflicted...


...Or something...
Click to expand...
They've been fixed. Vader suggested that Static be offensive as well, because if another sweeper comes in to try and kill it, it may be paralyzed as CAP8 faints, and the same with Effect Spore.
 
i think static should go in somewhat offensive because it is not an ability that is really fully offensive, because it relies on the pokemons ability to survive a hit and then make the opponent parylised.
 
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