CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 5c - Secondary Ability Poll 3

[pikpikcarrotmon]

I really don't get why people like you resort to straw man arguments. You know exactly what I mean.

it is going to be placed in the metagame, so in that sense, yes it will [have an effect on the metagame].

And that's all I'm saying. No Secondary Ability does nothing, it's a cop-out instead of picking an ability that will do something. Please vote for Trace or Static. That's all.

EDIT: @ Empoleon

 

[the_artic_one]

come on guys, no secondary ability is a poor choice, it does not let us explore as much as we would if we had 2 abilities. If not trace, then at least go with static...

I'd rather explore one thing with full focus than two with only half.

 

[Deck Knight]

1. Our concept was fairly terrible and directionless. It won and we'd have abided by it with nearly any ability in our list. It was that vague.

2. The stated goal of CAP itself is to test and alter the metagame. This is a goal regardless of what our concept is, even if our concept is "make an ineffectual pokemon that barely scrapes OU each assessment period."

Therefore this hand-wringing about "sticking true to concept" is a load of hooey. The remaining abilities are of equal power but different application to Shield Dust. It is not as if we're doing Run Away/Flash Fire here, where one ability is better than the other in all instances in all applications in all teams.

 

[Lord Blood]

Static's definetly got my vote due to the reasons that Deck Knight posted. Like he said, if it doesn't hurt the Pokemon, and since most people will use Shield Dust, why not have a second ability. Unless the ability has nothing to do with the Pokemon like Technician on this Electric/Dragon, Static is just a little 'bonus'.

 

[Matthew]

I really don't get why people like you resort to straw man arguments. You know exactly what I mean.

And that's all I'm saying. No Secondary Ability does nothing, it's a cop-out instead of picking an ability that will do something. Please vote for Trace or Static. That's all.

I straw maned nothing, which is not something I can say about you. What are the benefits of giving this pokemon the abilities? It will "allow us further understandings of the metagame"? How? Oh now pokemon will have to fear a 30% chance of getting paralysed! Or now my Heatran just has another reason to use Earth Power, or use a Substitute set with Toxic. This doesn't help us understand anything, it won't decentralize anything. I for one would still continue to spam U-turn even if this pokemon gets Static. I know that many others will too because of how effective of a move it is. Scizor won't care about getting paralysed, he has a 90 priority base attack. Flygon may care, but he still can force pokemon out with his resistances and immunities.

Adding a secondary ability does nothing for this CAP, actually there are some of CAPs who will only use one ability (or were given only one) and still work just as well as the others, or maybe even better. Scylant will never choose anything outside of Mountaineer, since Stealth Rocks then renders it completely useless. Revenankh will never use the ability Air Lock over its much much better ability, Shed Skin. Argh only comes with one ability, and it infact one of the best CAPs thanks to that. Yanmega has Speed Boost and Tinted Lens, but how often will you see a Yanmega that runs Tented Lens over Speed Boost? Almost never.

These pokemon have two abilities and they still prefer the former to the latter, because it is so much better. I can say that removing the underused ability will have no effect on the metagame and that is most likely a true fact. Tented Lens is inferior to Speed Boost. Air Lock is inferior to Shed Skin. Compound Eyes is inferior to Mountaineer. The ability that we're primarily are going to base this pokemon off of is Shield Dust, so if a pokemon is actually going to be based around this specific ability, won't the secondary ability be completely ignored and then in itself have no effect on the metagame?

Strawman this.

 

[Darkflagrance]

I'd rather explore one thing with full focus than two with only half.

I don't think adding more abilities will have an effect on the movepool. We've already figured out the stat spread of the pokemon anyway, so that's all that's left to decide.

Shield Dust and Static are just protection abilities that allow the pokemon to carry out a strategy present in its movepool. They don't affect what move CAP8 will get.

Trace is probably best used Porygon2 style, with a 50% recovery to increase switch-in opportunities to steal abilities. Still barely any effect on movepool.

No it isn't. That never was our goal with this concept. Our goal was to make a Pokemon that made use of an ability that didn't see much play because the Pokemon it's attached to is bad. That's it. We just succeeded on that end with Shield Dust. Adding another does not boost some arbitrary "learning factor."

Well, if our goal is to make unused abilities seen more in the metagame, sure one works, but then wouldn't two fulfill the concept twice as well? It's not as if the abilities are exclusive to each other in any way.
I fail to understand in what possible, conceivable way allowing a player to have another ability, another option, on this pokemon could make CAP8 worse off.

These pokemon have two abilities and they still prefer the former to the latter, because it is so much better. I can say that removing the underused ability will have no effect on the metagame and that is most likely a true fact. Tinted Lens is inferior to Speed Boost. Air Lock is inferior to Shed Skin. Compound Eyes is inferior to Mountaineer. The ability that we're primarily are going to base this pokemon off of is Shield Dust, so if a pokemon is actually going to be based around this specific ability, won't the secondary ability be completely ignored and then in itself have no effect on the metagame?

Strawman this.

Honestly, I hate the abilities up for voting. I would have liked Early Bird or Marvel Scale to win, but I ultimately feel that no harm would be done in adding another ability, and it would be a constructive addition, a 'bonus' as Lord Blood said.

Ultimately, it is fallacious reasoning to say to add an ability that would be overshadowed is pointless. If you don't want another ability, then don't participate and just set Shield Dust when you use him, and let people who want another ability have it as an option.

Furthermore, considering that this is the CAP metagame, where new pokemon are constantly entering the game, who is to say that one day Static will not be useful to counter a future CAP?

 

[Ybbob]

No Secondary Ability

Honestly, the concept was vague and too similar to other CAPs as it is, what it the point in adding another useless ability which will almost never be used? People say it adds to the diversity, but an ability so basic and useless as Static won't do much regardless to waste time over discussion.

 

[familyguyman]

Eh, I don't like either too much but I like Static more than NSA and Trace should be only for very special pokemon who need it to be useful.

I vote for Static

 

[Veedrock]

Ultimately, it is fallacious reasoning to say to add an ability that would be overshadowed is pointless. If you don't want another ability, then don't participate and just set Shield Dust when you use him, and let people who want another ability have it as an option.

People play competitively; they'll use the better option available. I like Blaziken more than Infernape. Well, I'm not just gonna use Blaziken because I like him; there's a better option there. If Infernape didn't exist, I'd like use him. But he does and so I'm using Infernape. Saying "just don't use it" is awful reasoning for arguing against NSA. People aren't at fault for using that precedent for their vote, so don't be get on people's cases about it.

And one perspective is being completely ignored: you aren't just using CAP8; you're playing against it. What if I don't want to deal with Static? I can't "just set Shield Dust" for my opponent, can I? There's 2 ways to approach this, don't just look at it from behind.

 

[Deck Knight]

I straw maned nothing, which is not something I can say about you. What are the benefits of giving this pokemon the abilities? It will "allow us further understandings of the metagame"? How? Oh now pokemon will have to fear a 30% chance of getting paralysed! Or now my Heatran just has another reason to use Earth Power, or use a Substitute set with Toxic.

Technically it is spelled "manned." A battleship is manned, a lion is maned.

Shield Dust stops none of those things from being useful save the 20% SDef drop on Earth Power. Heatran is a pretty horrible example actually.

This doesn't help us understand anything, it won't decentralize anything. I for one would still continue to spam U-turn even if this pokemon gets Static. I know that many others will too because of how effective of a move it is. Scizor won't care about getting paralysed, he has a 90 priority base attack. Flygon may care, but he still can force pokemon out with his resistances and immunities.

You SPAM U-Turn at your peril in a metagame with Static CAP8. The further insistence that paralysis does not matter to Scizor because he can still use an attack hits with less power than an unSTABbed Earthquake 75% of the time is equally laughable. Bullet Punch isn't going to cut it on a remotely healthy Swampert, Hippowdon, Machamp, or Snorlax. Scizor also isn't going to appreciate being fully para'd on the turn it tries to U-Turn out to a counter. The fact is paralysis fucks with Scizor on multiple levels but saying so is a heresy in CAP based solely on Scizor's 65 Base Speed not being considered fast. Scizor outspeeds 13 pokemon out of 49 in OU, or 26.5%, assuming it and the pokemon in question have the same EVs.

I suppose Lucario also does not fear paralysis because it can still use Extremespeed.

Same with Infernape for it can Vacuum Wave. We must all fear the crushing might of spammed 75% effective priority moves.

Adding a secondary ability does nothing for this CAP, actually there are some of CAPs who will only use one ability (or were given only one) and still work just as well as the others, or maybe even better. Scylant will never choose anything outside of Mountaineer, since Stealth Rocks then renders it completely useless.

Compoundeyes was extremely popular before we removed Focus Blast from Scylants movepool. Now there is no reason to use Compoundeyes because Blizzard's accuracy can be boosted by Hail and every other special attack it learns has 100 acc. Compoundeyes stopped being popular when Syclants movepool changed because there's no reason to run Compoundeyes just for Blizzard. Put Focus Blast back on Scylant, watch Compoudneyes come into use again.

Revenankh will never use the ability Air Lock over its much much better ability, Shed Skin

Agreed, but only because we unleashed a truly monstrous pokemon with Shedrest with few exploitable weaknesses. Being able to heal from Rest immediately was more powerful than never losing Leftovers recovery in weather.

Argh only comes with one ability, and it infact one of the best CAPs thanks to that.

This is fallacious. Is Togekiss any weaker because it has Hustle? No. The mere possession of another ability would not decrease Arghonauts effectiveness. Unless your argument is that it is "best" because you personally prefer CAPs with one ability. That isn't a competive argument though. If Arghonaut had Marvel Scale as a secondary ability I somehow doubt seeing one switch into your stat-up sweeper would be less scary. It might however cause you to rethink using Toxic on it.

Yanmega has Speed Boost and Tinted Lens, but how often will you see a Yanmega that runs Tented Lens over Speed Boost? Almost never.

This does not reduce the effectiveness of Yanmega itself, however. Speed Boost and Tinted Lens do different things and free speed boosts are impossibly powerful.

These pokemon have two abilities and they still prefer the former to the latter, because it is so much better. I can say that removing the underused ability will have no effect on the metagame and that is most likely a true fact. Tented Lens is inferior to Speed Boost. Air Lock is inferior to Shed Skin. Compound Eyes is inferior to Mountaineer. The ability that we're primarily are going to base this pokemon off of is Shield Dust, so if a pokemon is actually going to be based around this specific ability, won't the secondary ability be completely ignored and then in itself have no effect on the metagame?

Cue "Technician will be worthless compared to the clearly superior Levitate, lets not weaken Stratagem by dividing its house" arguments from CAP6. Even if we gave this an absurdly useless ability like Run Away, only a n00b would use it. This is not applicable with Static or Trace, which have clear track records of competitive use (Static in UU, Trace in OU). CaptKirby is voting against static because of the number of times Static has screwed him over in UU.

I do not really care as long as it is not static. As Deck Knight's argument of "crippling the opponent without even using a moveslot" goes, that is exactly why Static is bad - it is a fucking broken ability.

Strawman this.

OK.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

I'm really not seeing why this CAP shouldn't have a secondary ability. I know people are going to say, "but the concept says blah blah blah," but it doesn't. The concept says to use one or two abilities that are currently undervalued.

My opinion of Trace is that it really isn't terribly undervalued. Porygon2 is almost OU and sees fairly regular use, while Gardevoir is still one of the better Dual Screeners and Wishers available.

Deck Knight has proven himself yet again to be a fantastic debater. I've been hoping for Static for a while now, but he's really eliminated all doubt in my mind. This is the ability to use.

 

[Lightning Storm]

No Secondary Ability

Honestly, the concept was vague and too similar to other CAPs as it is, what it the point in adding another useless ability which will almost never be used? People say it adds to the diversity, but an ability so basic and useless as Static won't do much regardless to waste time over discussion.

Whats the point in NOT adding another ability? For all that I can tell, adding trace or static as a secondary ability will have NO negative effects on CAP 8. (unless it somehow gets used outside of shoddy battle. getting the right ability with the right nature and IVs is SO much harder with a second ability.)

Even if the ability only gets used once in a blue moon, it's still better to have options then not to.

I'm voting for Trace. Copying the opponent's ability is just too awesome.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

No Secondary Ability has to make it to the next poll, guys! When the concept was first chosen, people said that it was completely directionless. Why was that? Because we didn't have an ability to base our direction on! Now, if we choose two different abilities, we won't really have had any direction ... at all. Will we have? If we pick one ability, then this concept won't have been for nothing—looking back, we could see how it will all have been for Shield Dust. With two abilities, all that gets taken away, and this CAP becomes pretty much exactly like a concept-less CAP.

 

[zarator]

Whats the point in NOT adding another ability? For all that I can tell, adding trace or static as a secondary ability will have NO negative effects on CAP 8. (unless it somehow gets used outside of shoddy battle. getting the right ability with the right nature and IVs is SO much harder with a second ability.)

Even if the ability only gets used once in a blue moon, it's still better to have options then not to.

I'm voting for Trace. Copying the opponent's ability is just too awesome.

1) As veedrock pointed out, you guys should always think on both sides. Maybe an NSA voter simply doesn't want to face a Trace/Static CAP8
2) In Static case, I don't want a paralyzing bot. CAP metagame is already pretty slow and stallish without needing of throwing out another damp to offensive teams. I bashed off Deck Knight Para-busing tank in the past for this reason (no surprise he's supporting Static now) and I will not support it ever
3) In Trace case, I'd not like Trace to completely overshadow Shield Dust. The typing and stats we chose are maybe the best possible for Shield Dust. I don't want to put on CAP8 something clearly better like Trace.

 

[Veedrock]

When the concept was first chosen, people said that it was completely directionless. Why was that? Because we didn't have an ability to base our direction on! Now, if we choose two different abilities, we won't really have had any direction ... at all. Will we have? If we pick one ability, then this concept won't have been for nothing—looking back, we could see how it will all have been for Shield Dust. With two abilities, all that gets taken away, and this CAP becomes pretty much exactly like a concept-less CAP.

What direction does Shield Dust really provide? And with movepool being practically the only thing left, what direction can any ability really provide? The process has kind of messed with the concept but it's turned out fine. At this point I think direction arguments (and the related contexts) are pretty pointless and can be dropped. I really don't understand how Static or Shield Dust can affect movepool all that much (though I may just not be thinking hard enough).

 

[diinbong]

I wouldn't mind having Static as a Secondary Ability for reasons quite frequently presented by posts in this thread. Trace, however, is a no-go for me. It's a major slap in the face to the concept; the point was to evaluate an underused ability obtained only by an underused Pokemon, however if you'd like to try Trace competitively, use its better user - Porygon2. I voted NSA because I can.

 

[Objection]

I ultimately feel that no harm would be done in adding another ability

Unless you can disagree with this, you do not have a valid reason to vote for No Secondary Ability. Even if Static or Trace is considered pointless, give it to the pokemon anyway because then, like the Yanmega scenario, people can run the "inferior" ability if they want to, and who knows? Maybe someone will find a use for it.

EDIT: Oh yeah, the only other remotely valid reason is something like "I don't want Trace or Static to be options on this pokemon". Arguing against both abilities on the grounds of pointlessness is invalid.

 

[familyguyman]

Another reason for Static is that it gives you the surprise factor. If you have Trace, immediately upon switching in, the opponent will know if it's Trace or Shield Dust. With Static, you don't know. Do you let Jirachi try and Body Slam CAP8? You're either going to do small damage or risk paralyzing yourself but you won't know until you try, which is a good mind game I think.

 

[1059860]

Hmm I hope this poll isn't flawed again because I just checked, a few people have 0 posts on this forum (seems like the account just were created to bias against one's favorite option). An example is the account Growlachu

 

[10fore]

Voting for static: trace is not really a neglected ability, with both of its users making successful use of it. But except for electrode leads paralyzing fake out lead ambipoms in UU (such bull, btw), there's not been more of usage.

 

[pikpikcarrotmon]

Growlachu's been a member since March, though. They're no worse than any active member who hasn't posted in this thread, I think.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

What direction does Shield Dust really provide? And with movepool being practically the only thing left, what direction can any ability really provide? The process has kind of messed with the concept but it's turned out fine. At this point I think direction arguments (and the related contexts) are pretty pointless and can be dropped. I really don't understand how Static or Shield Dust can affect movepool all that much (though I may just not be thinking hard enough).

Basically I'm just saying, what's the point of having a concept at all if when all is said and done, you don't even really pay any attention to it.

 

[The_Bassoonist]

One thing I don't understand: There's so much debate going on about what the point with our concept for CAP 8 is and there appears to be two clearly defined sides of this debate in terms of the ammount of abilities that fit this concept. Why hasn't the creator of the concept, Elevator Music, stepped in and once and for all explained his/her intentions with this concept? Or is the Concept Creator not allowed to give any further opinion after his/her concept has been chosen?

 

[Umbreon Dan]

One thing I don't understand: There's so much debate going on about what the point with our concept for CAP 8 is and there appears to be two clearly defined sides of this debate in terms of the ammount of abilities that fit this concept. Why hasn't the creator of the concept, Elevator Music, stepped in and once and for all explained his/her intentions with this concept? Or is the Concept Creator not allowed to give any further opinion after his/her concept has been chosen?

He's definitely allowed to, but I've been seeing a little less of EM than I'm used to.

Also, I have to ask that people stop throwing around wild cheating accusations. People don't do that.

 

[Magmortified]

One thing I don't understand: There's so much debate going on about what the point with our concept for CAP 8 is and there appears to be two clearly defined sides of this debate in terms of the ammount of abilities that fit this concept. Why hasn't the creator of the concept, Elevator Music, stepped in and once and for all explained his/her intentions with this concept? Or is the Concept Creator not allowed to give any further opinion after his/her concept has been chosen?

I'm pretty sure EM's said he really only came up with the concept so that he could have a shot at a Pokemon with Shield Dust. Whether that's all of it, I can't tell you. It seems pretty clear to me, though, that the concept only says the Pokemon must have the ability. It doesn't need to be built around it or anything.

The learning justification says we look into why abilities don't see much play and how we can make them see more play. That part always seemed a little weak to me; they're not seen much because they're attached to bad Pokemon. We can make one seen more often by attaching one to a good Pokemon. But oh well. The point is that the concept's pretty clear.

The argument that, "There's no reason not to use two abilities" is kind of void. As, to be honest, there are instances in which a certain ability may not be very good to have on a Pokemon. As an extreme example: Lucario with Pure Power. Clearly, neither Static nor Trace are that bad on CAP 8, I just don't want to have to deal with it packing them.

No Secondary Ability is what would be considered a "Safe" option. You don't actually gain anything from choosing it, but, then, you know you don't give it a secondary ability it shouldn't have. I consider the safe option fair enough here.