CAP 9 CAP 9 - Main Typing Discussion

[Plus]

Discuss the typing of CAP 9. What would you like in a pokemon that could Stop the Secondary?

Name: Stop the Secondary
Description: A Pokémon that through means of ability, moves, and typing, can stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin.

Justification: While the immediate threat of damaging moves is large and present, the affect of moves such as status, Trick, Leech Seed, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes have arguably had a greater affect to the metagame than anything has ever had, something that this would greatly look in to.

Questions to be Answered:
~ How easily would a Pokémon with such large of a niche be able to fit into a competitive team?
~ How large of an impact would the reducation of non damaging affects and moves have on the metagame?

- What, if any, would happen to the types of teams being used?
- How would this affect the usage of these types of moves?​

~ How much of an affect does typing have on the ability for ANY Pokémon to perform this duty?

Keep it clean, don't hurt anyone, and let's go!

This thread will close when the last Main Typing poll closes.

Remember to discuss the MAIN typing only. Secondary typing discussion comes later. Don't drift off topic here. Keep it related to typing, and main typing only.

Here we go!

 

[KnightoftheWind]

Steel is probably one of our best options for stopping the secondary, as it automatically grants an immunity to the Toxic status, as well as taking no damage from Sandstorm.

 

[SgtWoodsy]

I'd like to kick things off by advocating Flying, as it gains an instant immunity to Ground (the most common attacking move in the game), Spikes and Toxic Spikes, which were two things that we really wanted to focus on.

 

[Sandal8]

From moi in the other thread:

Grass - Leech Seed
Dragon - None
Fire - Will-o-wisp
Poison - Toxic Spikes/Toxic
Water - None
Steel - Toxic/Immune to Toxic Spikes/Immune to Sandstorm
Normal - None
Ground - Immune to Thunder Wave/Immune to Sandstorm
Flying - Immune to Spikes/Toxic Spikes
Rock - Immune to Sandstorm
Ice - Immune to Hail
Fighting - None
Dark - None
Psychic - None
Bug - None
Electric - None
Ghost - None

Also, do we have any Dark, Normal, Flying, or Psychic CaP's?

 

[Fuzznip]

In my opinion, I feel that Flying is an excellent primary type for this CAP. Now, right off the bat you will say "no way it was an SR weakness!", but Flying gives us three important immunities: Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Ground-type moves (Earthquake).

Also, there's so much we can do with Flying as it's really an open type. There's not much of a specific direction we can go with this.

Also, Steel is another great main typing, as it provides us with several immunities and resistances. It doesn't mind Toxic, Toxic Spikes, sandstorm, and Stealth Rock, which are common effects in the current metagame.

These are just some ideas I have for this concept.

Also, do we have any Dark, Normal, Flying, or Psychic CaP's?

Does it matter? We are not trying to make CAPs that each of a totally different type. "Oh we should make this Dark-type because we don't have one yet!". In my opinion, the typing should be decided on what best fits the concept, regardless of wether it has been used or not.

 

[The Other Doug]

How about Ground? It takes little damage from the ever common Stealth Rock, and is immune to both Thunder Wave, and Sandstorm.

 

[Sandal8]

Still, you don't want a "Stop the Secondary" to be weak to the most common form of "Secondary" damage, Stealth Rock. That may or may not limit the other type of STS to Fighting, Steel, or Rock. Just a thought.

 

[threeQuestions]

Steel Seems to be the logical choice. nice resistances/immunities.
Also, to my knowledge (correct me if i'm wrong) not many secondairy users have Fire/Fighting/ground moves.

 

[Apocalypse B-C]

Personally, I'd say CAP9's main type should be either Steel or Dark.

A Steel-typing instantly provides an immunity to Toxic and gives it a slew of resistances to use to switch in on.

Dark-types provide a powerful super-effective front to scare off most Trick users - which as far as I know are almost entirely Psychic-types - so that even if they do pull off the trick, it's unlikely they'd live to enjoy it. Also, the Psychic immunity provides a convenient switch-in (also set-up/Pursuit turn, as not many Psychics that have a Dark weakness would stay in on an offensive Dark-type). Dark-types also have relatively few weaknesses to take advantage of, and I don't believe there has been a Dark-typed CAP as of yet, so it would be branching off in a new direction, to an extent....

As you can see, I prefer Dark over Steel. Heh.

 

[Deck Knight]

I've thought about this a lot, and it will probably cause a few head scratches in here. However:

Main Typing: Dark

Why Dark?

The entire Concept thread seems to revolve around that ubiquitous nuisance Trick. How to be immune to it, how to stop it, devolving into multiple ability discussions that went largely nowhere. Ultimately in order to "deal with" something, you need to be able to stop its users. And what pokemon are the most prolific users of Trick? Just look at the Dex: With rare exception, all of them are weak to Dark, and generally can't do a damn thing back to one. Ghost resistance and Psychic immunity generally see to that.

The Psychic immunity Dark brings isn't that important on its own. Only on the full CAP Server have Psychic attacks found a decent home. That being said Dark also brings something else with it: Pursuit resistance and Pursuit STAB. STAB Pursuit punishes Trick users to the maximum extent. If CAP9 is even halfway decent with a Choice Item, it can switch into a Trick user, exchange Choice items, and crush them on the inevitable Switch-out.

Dark also only has one particularly bad weakness: Fighting. Aside from the stray lead Infernape however, Fighting types don't use secondary effects at all. The only common Bug-type attack comes from fairly weak UnSTAB Jirachi, Celebi, and Flygon or Scizor, who can be dealt with promptly if CAP9 gets Flamethrower or Fire Blast.

EDIT: Oh yes, and I just remembered: Pursuit has priority against U-turn (because of the switch effect), so you can actually hit these pokemon pretty hard if they try to U-Turn out. Doesn't matter much for Scizor, but only Jirachi has the kind of defenses to want to deal with that possibility.

Dark itself takes neutral damage from all hazards, but that simply opens up possibilities for secondary typings or abilities. A decently bulky Dark-type pokemon can switch in on Bulky Waters with little issue, and if granted a status-loving ability like Guts, could quickly become a huge threat and force these Stall-Warts out.

 

[Plus]

While I have already emphasized enough that immunities are important, I think that we are really STOPPING the secondary. That doesn't necessarily mean immunities and immunities only -- I'm sure that every type has their own. Grass has a Leech Seed immune, Steel has Poison and Stealth Rock resist, etc.

However, I am throwing my support for Dark at the moment. Dark is an interesting choice, as it nets a resistance to Ghost, primarily for Rotom-a who is one of the biggest statusers in OU, as well as working well against Celebi, who also is a big user of secondary moves. Note that we're not only walling the secondary, but stopping it. There's a slight difference.

One of the ways we should look at this concept is by looking at what uses secondary moves, and looking at which typing fits best for said pokemon, as well as granting a couple immunities here and there. Otherwise, we would simply have a pokemon immune to the secondary, but the pokemon who use the secondary would pound on this pokemon otherwise.



Note to everyone else as well: DO NOT VOTE BASED ON PRIOR CAPS. I cannot stress this enough -- each typing is treated equally in a CAP Project, so do not even try to give me a reason for voting x typing because it has never been used.

 

[familyguyman]

Steel is probably one of our best options for stopping the secondary, as it automatically grants an immunity to the Toxic status, as well as taking no damage from Sandstorm.

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree here but I want to flesh out a bit since it's too easy to just say Steel QED.

I am liking Ground, personally, since it has useful STAB to allow some form of offense, it has a good immunity, resists Stealth Rock and pairs well with other types. It also stops Sandstorm damage.

Dark is also a very interesting choice. My problem with it is that, offensively speaking, unless CAP9 ends up very powerful offensively, what will it do to scare Rotom-A and Celebi from using their secondary moves? It does not aid switching into these moves at all unless paired with another type or ability. I think Dark might be better left for the secondary type since I am viewing this as an defensive Pokemon primarily and Dark seems too offensive.

 

[Deck Knight]

Steel Seems to be the logical choice. nice resistances/immunities.
Also, to my knowledge (correct me if i'm wrong) not many secondairy users have Fire/Fighting/ground moves.

That would be incorrect.

Top 20 OU Leads:

Azelf: SR, Flamethrower
Metagross: SR, Earthquake
Jirachi: SR, Fire Punch
Aerodactyl: SR, Earthquake
Swampert: SR, Earthquake
Ninjask: None
Roserade: Spikes, Toxic Spikes, HP Fire
Smeargle: SR, Spikes, Spore
Hippowdon: SR, Earthquake
Bronzong: SR, Earthquake
Tyranitar: SR, Earthquake, Fire Blast
Heatran: SR, Fire Blast, Earth Power
Crobat: None
Forretress: SR, Earthquake
Mamoswine: SR, Earthquake
Machamp: Dynamicpunch
Gliscor: SR, Earthquake
Ambipom: Brick Break
Abomasnow: Earthquake

So there are ways for these pokemon to address a Steel type, most of them very effectively. Jirachi is the only one of the Top 10 leads that doesn't have an immediate answer to a Steel type "stop the secondary." The sad truth is that as many resistances and benefits as Steel has, it has 3 of the worst weaknesses in the game. Dark shares that fighting weakness, but conveniently only Machamp on this list has the means the exploit it effectively.

 

[Kamen Rider]

I think Dark is a better choice than steel. They are both weak to fighting so its a non factor and I think steels poison immunity is outweighed by it potential weakness to trapping (minor complaint) and its weakness to ground and fire attacks (way more common than dark's secoundary weakness)

Dark is also a major deterant to ghosts, who are not only very heavy secoundary move users, but also the counter to rapid spinning. The entry hazord dilemma could in someway be tackled with a pokemon that merely detering ghosts, rather than going down the dreaded scrappy-spin route.

 

[KnightoftheWind]

Well, the Steel typing is fairly self-explanitory, as most other users who also support Steel have said pretty much the same thing. Dark seems interesting too, to beat Trickers, especially if it isn't hampered significantly by negative items, but that's for another time.

 

[Plus]

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree here but I want to flesh out a bit since it's too easy to just say Steel QED.

I am liking Ground, personally, since it has useful STAB to allow some form of offense, it has a good immunity, resists Stealth Rock and pairs well with other types. It also stops Sandstorm damage.

Dark is also a very interesting choice. My problem with it is that, offensively speaking, unless CAP9 ends up very powerful offensively, what will it do to scare Rotom-A and Celebi from using their secondary moves? It does not aid switching into these moves at all unless paired with another type or ability. I think Dark might be better left for the secondary type since I am viewing this as an defensive Pokemon primarily and Dark seems too offensive.

You don't need offense to take down Rotom, and I'm not particularly fond of your "viewing this as a defensive/offensive" stance either. One reason is because it's slight poll jumping, and another reason is because it doesn't make much sense. If you view this pokemon as defensive, I'm pretty sure you can take a hit from a Rotom-a. If that's the case, what's stopping you from hitting it back with a perfectly viable stab move? Hell, even a Payback from something weak like an Umbreon would do a good amount of damage to Rotom-a.

If you went for offense, I wouldn't mind either. Simply switch it in on a ghost type move or even a status move should we have an immunity to it, and scare it off. If it ends up defensively I wouldn't see how Celebi/Rotom could do anything to it while it a) stops the secondary b) hits hard with STAB.

 

[Walvren]

Weaknesses to fire, fighting and ground aside, Steel is still most suitable for CAP9. Immunities to Toxic and Sandstorm allow CAP9 to stay in the field longer which is what we want, as I've said numerous times. Its resistances aid as well. Resistances to Ice, Rock, Normal, Dark, Psychic and Steel makes it one of the best types defensively.

I can't say much more about Steel, but I'll talk about secondary typing when we get there.

I think Dark is a better choice than steel. They are both weak to fighting so its a non factor and I think steels poison immunity is outweighed by it potential weakness to trapping (minor complaint) and its weakness to ground and fire attacks (way more common than dark's secoundary weakness)

Dark is also a major deterant to ghosts, who are not only very heavy secoundary move users, but also the counter to rapid spinning. The entry hazord dilemma could in someway be tackled with a pokemon that merely detering ghosts, rather than going down the dreaded scrappy-spin route.

With dark type gaining favour, I must say that it doesn't do as much as steel does. I understand the argument but it is more favourable to have resistances as well as the mentioned immunities. Part of countering secondaries is not giving in to them, meaning switching out. Steel makes it easier to build a pokemon that can stand being out there.

Ghosts aren't a huge problem in my opinion and if they can't KO Steel CAP9, they'll just switch out...

 

[m190049]

From stalking the past thread, and some thought on my own end, I guess I like the immunities, the switches it seems to garner, and several other such things that Dark brings to the table. I'd really include a bit more but Deck Night and Plus pretty much said more than I could.

 

[DinosaurCuddles]

I'd like to kick things off by advocating Flying, as it gains an instant immunity to Ground (the most common attacking move in the game), Spikes and Toxic Spikes, which were two things that we really wanted to focus on.

I find that this pokemon would most likely be used on the first turn to stop them from setting up. Making the imunity to spikes less usefull.

 

[familyguyman]

You don't need offense to take down Rotom, and I'm not particularly fond of your "viewing this as a defensive/offensive" stance either. One reason is because it's slight poll jumping, and another reason is because it doesn't make much sense. If you view this pokemon as defensive, I'm pretty sure you can take a hit from a Rotom-a. If that's the case, what's stopping you from hitting it back with a perfectly viable stab move? Hell, even a Payback from something weak like an Umbreon would do a good amount of damage to Rotom-a.

If you went for offense, I wouldn't mind either. Simply switch it in on a ghost type move or even a status move should we have an immunity to it, and scare it off. If it ends up defensively I wouldn't see how Celebi/Rotom could do anything to it while it a) stops the secondary b) hits hard with STAB.

I am not opposed to offense at all. I am just getting "defense" vibes. I can't really help that.

My point was the Dark does not really help switching into the Secondary moves CAP9 is supposed to stop. It's not about taking a hit from Rotom or Celebi it's about taking a Will'O'Wisp or Thunder Wave/Leech Seed. If CAP9 is Dark and get's burnt, it won't really threaten a defensive Rotom unless it's specially oriented or is very fast and has a way of crippling it (which makes it more endangered by Thunder Wave).

If it gets paralyzed or seeded, then it's either crippled or will be inclined to switch out. I don't really see what Dark as a primary type will do other than help deter switch ins which doesn't sound like stopping the secondary to me.

Maybe I am way off on this, please tell me if I am.

 

[Elegy]

Wow, i've been immediately swayed torward Dark.

First of all, I love how most Trick users can't really stand up to a Dark Pokemon, even when looking at typing alone. Also, Dark is neutral to a lot of other types, meaning this well-rounded type can start us in the right direction. Pursuit STAB those tricksters, and get on with stopping other secondaries!
Flying isn't comparable, especially against the SR weakness, and Ice/Electric weakness stinks. Steel, in general, is a great type. An excellent alternative route to Dark, but CAP9 shouldn't be lackin' Pursuit STAB. Grass could get us somewhere with Leech Seed immunity, but not much else, since Fire hurts and no useful resistances.

 

[ferron]

i do love the idea of dark typing on it, but i am trying to think how this will be different from umbreon, which is already a defensive dark type that can punish status and can taunt.
i think that a bug type might be a bit better, as it also scares off most trick-users and most already learn dark moves. while it is SR-weak, does that really stop a poke from being good?

 

[zorbees]

I know that this Pokemon is supposed to "Stop The Secondary," but if it can't switch into attacking moves as well, it won't be a very good Pokemon. Thus, I believe Steel is the best main typing for CAP9. As said previously, it is resistant to Stealth Rock, and immune to Sandstorm and all forms of Poison. It packs resistances to Normal, Grass, Rock, Dark, Dragon, Ghost, Steel, Flying, Ice, and Psychic, and an immunity to Poison, by far the most of any typing. Steel is a good base because it fits well with many other secondary typings. Steel/Grass, Steel/Dragon, Steel/Flying, Steel/Psychic, Steel/Ghost (although I doubt we'll do that again), Steel/Fire, Steel/Water, Steel/Ground, and Pure Steel can all be argued as good typings.

Regarding other types:

I do not feel as if Dark typing offers anything useful other than a resistance to Rotom's Ghost moves, which Steel also provides, and STAB Pursuit, which I'll admit is cool. Dark is vulnerable to every status and every entry hazard as well as Sandstorm and Leech Seed. I feel as if threatening the status users won't help very much if you can't take their status or attacks.

Ground would be alright, but being vulnerable to both Spikes and Toxic Spikes can hurt. Ground also is not effective against Celebi, Rotom-A, and Cresselia, three common users of Secondary moves, as well as many common Taunt users like Gyarados, Azelf, and Aerodactyl.

Flying is alright, Stealth Rock weakness is the big down point as well as not threatening Rotom-A. Being immune to both forms of Spikes is nice though, as is having a strong offensive STAB.

 

[Plus]

I understand your concerns, however we do have an ability and secondary typing to consider here. While you touched upon that subject earlier, I think Dark deserves it for the main typing a bit more than secondary, which is probably why I brought it up here and not later.

If anything, I don't believe that our main concern should be blocking immunities, rather it should be something with a typing that can fuck up the secondary. There are many ways to get immunities, but there are less ways to find a viable typing that can really scare users who do use the secondary.

A problem that has occured in CAP 7 was that people were too focused on the CAP concept that they didn't even bother to consider how it would fare in the metagame that much, something that I think is happening here. To those of you who are vouching for a type just because of a certain immunity, I really do want you to think a bit harder as to what you resist and why it's important for this CAP. I urge you not to think simply immunities, but rather how to beat the secondary. Oh, and immunities isn't the answer I'm looking for. ;)

Again, let me emphasize that I am aware that dark does not have the "cool" immunities or resistances other types may have, but I think fighting the secondary is more important at this time. We have another type to consider for this CAP, and the abilities to top it off. Don't get to close-minded here.

 

[Solstice]

Currently, I have enormous support for Dark. Neutral against all forms of entry hazard, Pursuit STAB and resist, ability to hurt Trick users, these are all super important to the concept. Secondary typing also being key here, as Dark doesn't fully complete the requirements, namely status.