CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 2

[zarator]

Well first off, Shield Dust only prevents secondary effects from moves whose primary effect is to damage. This does not block Status Moves, or secondary moves overall which was what moi's concept wanted.

I also wouldn't call it simple when there's a variety of ways to pull this off. Whether it be an ability, a move, or favorable typing, you are able to block at least a variety of secondary moves. It does not mean "fast pokemon with Taunt".

Plus, I fail to see how, through already existing types/abilities/moves you can pull off such a concept. Assuming we do not create anything new, how far can we go?

Resistance to entry hazards is something already seen (Bronzong, Flygon), and certainly not something which discourage me from using them. Just because the opponent has Flygon, it does not mean Stealth Rock is an unviable option.

Thwarting the threat of Leech Seed would pretty much require CAP9 to be Grass-typed (which is not the best type difensively - just think that every possible secondary type which could give Grass a SR resistance open to a x4 weakness), or to have abysmal HP - which is not the best thing to do with powerful Bullet Punches flying around (how much Def would need it to survive CB Scizor BP?). Besides, a lot of OU Leech Seeders (Celebi, Breloom, Pyroak for CAP, Shaymin) have the means to combat opposing Grass types.

Trick is the easiest threat to counter. Just make this Pokémon mainly a Choice user, or give him Sticky Hold/Klutz. This is definitely possible, and could actually lead to a slight - emphasis on the word "slight" - decrease in the use of Trick.

To sum it up, aside from Trick, the other forms of non-direct harm (Leech Seed, Entry Hazards) are not in any way discouraged by CAP9 being resistant to them - entry hazards in particular. This quality would at best help him on a hit-and-run role (scout, choiced attacker) which really isn't the concept's aim.

If we want to bring CAP9 to the level that these moves are actually discouraged, we should allow CAP9 not only to be resistant to them, but also to block them and so free also his teammates from this burden. This can be achieved only through either a fast Taunt or through Rapid Spin. And sorry, but I fail to find any amusement or interest into creating a fast Taunter/Spinner resistant to hazards - maybe Leech Seed - and immune to Trick. A good Pokémon maybe, but unexciting and certainly not original.

About the other secondary effects, the only ones which come to my mind are statuses and secondary-effect moves. The former (which, if you cared about, was the "status counter" concept we discarded, basically), has some inherent flaws IMO. In fact, there are only 2 direction we could go about this. Either we make him immune/resistant to most statuses (and Fidgit already solved this idea to a large extent thanks to Vital spirit, Special bias and Poison/Ground typing) or we give it Guts/Quick Feet/Marvel Scale/Poison Heal (and we have already a handful of abusers like these in OU - Breloom, Machamp, Heracross) . Either directions are pretty much uninteresting to me. The latter thing - secondary effect moves - well... I thought we aleady created Cyclohm for that. You know, Shield Dust with suberb typing/stats goes a long way for these...

EDIT: Oh, yes, there is also the possibility of give to this thing Magic Guard... Altough I still keep my opinion. The fact that CAP9 is resistant/immune to entry hazards, Leech Seed &co does in any way diminish their viability in the metagame. And besides, using Magic Guard opens you to Trick anyway (which, as I said before, is the only thing which, if countered, would actually decrease - a blocked Trick is much worse than a resisted SR, you know, free turns FTW...).

 

[Korski]

If I had a pokemon that could stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin, I would make a team of that pokemon and 5 sweepers until the metagame adapted so that everyone had a team of that pokemon and 5 sweepers. Then I would make a team of 6 sweepers to get a jump on everyone else who still thinks anybody else would be foolish enough to throw around non-damaging attacks that have a good chance of doing nothing or possibly hurting their own team in some way. Then everyone would make a team of 6 sweepers because this pokemon would be dead weight. I think there's a strong chance of this concept heading in that direction (if we successfully create this pokemon, that is. Actually, the more I think about it, this concept could work great if it didn't go all the way in fulfilling itself). Let me know if I'm jumping the gun here. I think moi's concept would make a great pokemon, but I think it would shift the metagame way too much (again, to the point where the pokemon would be a shadow member of every team: no one would use it but would assume everyone else had it) by eliminating Stall and, basically, anything but fast offense.

 

[Cartoons!]

If we want to bring CAP9 to the level that these moves are actually discouraged, we should allow CAP9 not only to be resistant to them, but also to block them and so free also his teammates from this burden. This can be achieved only through either a fast Taunt or through Rapid Spin. And sorry, but I fail to find any amusement or interest into creating a fast Taunter/Spinner resistant to hazards - maybe Leech Seed - and immune to Trick. A good Pokémon maybe, but unexciting and certainly not original.

Don't forget Safeguard!..


It isn't a bad concept, but I just thought Two sided attacker to be the more interesting of the two. It's name does conflict with what I understood as its role though. If I read right, this Pokemon is essentially designed to be two Pokemon in one, right?
It just seems like there's so much to learn in building this, especially if we choose two incredibly different but specific roles. Creating this Pokemon would require a great deal of precision and thought which I've always considered the real meat of this whole exercise.

I suppose that's ultimately the deciding element here. Whether people view the creation process or the playtesting as the greater educational tool.

 

[Cybeny]

You cannot prevent all secondary moves with Taunt, as it also requires a switch in to the move as well as immunity. Taunt does not do that, and that switch-in turn is one of the most common ways to use an immunity.

The key issue I think you don't realize is that you can't switch in and use Taunt on the same turn. You get hit by that move before you can, and therein lies the problem.

Now I understand, Stop The Secondary does sound a lot more interesting and less simple now, although I still stand by my vote.

My main concern with billymills' submission is that we can already learn from previous examples. Even zorbees, who voted for it, pointed out pokemon in this metagame that can already fufill the submission.

Except, as Zorbee pointed out, Gligar has true 100% counters no matter what role he takes which means he doesn’t fulfill this concept.

Additionally I would not advocate jumping to conclusions here. Pointing out different possibilities a CAP could take is fine; however, don't make it too specific by narrowing down ability, moves, or any combination.

Sorry about this, I was just afraid that that was what CAP 9 would deteriorate too, and seemed like the most logical way for Stop the Secondary would go. Now I understand there is a bigger range of where it could go.

 

[familyguyman]

I'm going with Two-Sided Attack since I love me some mind games and I am having trouble seeing the viability of Stop the Secondary.

 

[Raikizen]

If I had a pokemon that could stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin, I would make a team of that pokemon and 5 sweepers until the metagame adapted so that everyone had a team of that pokemon and 5 sweepers. Then I would make a team of 6 sweepers to get a jump on everyone else who still thinks anybody else would be foolish enough to throw around non-damaging attacks that have a good chance of doing nothing or possibly hurting their own team in some way. Then everyone would make a team of 6 sweepers because this pokemon would be dead weight. I think there's a strong chance of this concept heading in that direction (if we successfully create this pokemon, that is. Actually, the more I think about it, this concept could work great if it didn't go all the way in fulfilling itself). Let me know if I'm jumping the gun here. I think moi's concept would make a great pokemon, but I think it would shift the metagame way too much (again, to the point where the pokemon would be a shadow member of every team: no one would use it but would assume everyone else had it) by eliminating Stall and, basically, anything but fast offense.

The problem I find with your example is that, that is how the metagame will always be. A classic example is that of Magnezone and Shed Shell. As Magnezone usage rises, so does the number of Skarmory and Forretress using Shed Shell. Eventually, the number of Shed Shell users is so great that Magnezone usage drops. Once it hits a low, Skarmory and Forretress are safer using Leftovers again.

A cycle is what the metagame is all about, and interpreting that cycle is what allows some users to get the jump on others.

Also, I would like to point out that Clefable has the ability Magic Guard. It single handedly stops all the negative damaging effects of moves like Will-o-Wisp, Toxic, LO, Recoil, and Leech Seed. Yet, the UU tier is not completely centralized around it. Even it's statistics (11% team usage and ranked #15) show that while it sees regular usage, it is by no means a driving force behind the metagame. And by no means is the CAP mon even going to have that ability. It could take the form of a move, ability, or something completely different. Assuming it would centralize the metagame just because indirect damage wouldn't bother it is a bitch of a stretch, imo.

 

[Tacho]

I voted for moi, since there are a number of ways it could go. We already have like a dozen 2 sided attackers anyway. Magic guard would be a fun ability for moi's concept, or we could invent him a new ability that handles the entry hazards in a better way than rapid spin (because we all know how bad rapid spin is and how good SR, spikes, TS are).

 

[Plus]

Resistance to entry hazards is something already seen (Bronzong, Flygon), and certainly not something which discourage me from using them. Just because the opponent has Flygon, it does not mean Stealth Rock is an unviable option.

Thwarting the threat of Leech Seed would pretty much require CAP9 to be Grass-typed (which is not the best type difensively - just think that every possible secondary type which could give Grass a SR resistance open to a x4 weakness), or to have abysmal HP - which is not the best thing to do with powerful Bullet Punches flying around (how much Def would need it to survive CB Scizor BP?). Besides, a lot of OU Leech Seeders (Celebi, Breloom, Pyroak for CAP, Shaymin) have the means to combat opposing Grass types.

Of course you'd have a terribly tough time doing both at the same time. However, I'd like to emphasize yet again what moi has said many times already. This concept does not take all secondary moves, rather a variety. Be it all the secondary moves he mentioned, you cannot take all of them down with simply typing.

Additionally, the point of a project like this is to see its effect on the metagame. For example, Fidgit was a common user of Toxic Spikes at one point, but its usage declined as people began to create TS immune teams (which are still very common in many teams in standard OU). Toxic Spikes is not "unviable", but you could definitely say the metagame changed from it. The fact that Flygon and Bronzong are in OU are partly because of their resistance to entry hazards. The concept isn't particularly looking to make them unviable -- that is terribly unreasonable for this CAP to accomplish. Rather, it is more of "how will this metagame change?"

Trick is the easiest threat to counter. Just make this Pokémon mainly a Choice user, or give him Sticky Hold/Klutz. This is definitely possible, and could actually lead to a slight - emphasis on the word "slight" - decrease in the use of Trick.

You're simply pointing out all the possibilities this CAP can go, but you must understand that it is impossible to cram all of that into one pokemon, even by the examples you have used.

Sure, just slap an ability on it. That's a very easy way to "counter" Trick. While it's definitely a possibility, there are different ways to go with this concept because of the fact that moi has explicitly stated that this would only block a variety, not all the secondary moves in existence.

To sum it up, aside from Trick, the other forms of non-direct harm (Leech Seed, Entry Hazards) are not in any way discouraged by CAP9 being resistant to them - entry hazards in particular. This quality would at best help him on a hit-and-run role (scout, choiced attacker) which really isn't the concept's aim.

Anything and everything benefit from resistance to these things. Not just scouts or hit and run pokemon. Immunities to something are beneficial for every pokemon. I don't see how it can go scout but not, say, a wall.

If we want to bring CAP9 to the level that these moves are actually discouraged, we should allow CAP9 not only to be resistant to them, but also to block them and so free also his teammates from this burden. This can be achieved only through either a fast Taunt or through Rapid Spin. And sorry, but I fail to find any amusement or interest into creating a fast Taunter/Spinner resistant to hazards - maybe Leech Seed - and immune to Trick. A good Pokémon maybe, but unexciting and certainly not original.

I'm not particularly going to reply through this one thoroughly as I've already justified my opinion on "fast pokemon with Taunt" as moi has, but I don't think that bringing CAP 9 to that level is a necessity, rather again, a possibility. Of course, a single pokemon will not singlehandedly stop the usage of a fuckton of secondary moves, but it would rather spice it up.

While I do respect your opinion, I personally think that looking too deep into this concept and worrying about the many ways of going about this concept is the wrong mentality. No, we do not have to make this pokemon the pokemon that is immune to everything, nor should we think about it that way. It should instead be thought of something that we could possibly learn from through shaking up the metagame. Rather than "Will this pokemon be able to de-validate secondary moves", I think we should look at it in a manner as, "With a pokemon that can cover a good amount of secondary moves, what new possibilities may arise when making a team or battling?"

 

[Run]

Two-sided attack

because "Stop the Secondary" is basically attempting to reduce the metagame to twelve pokemon wailing on each other until one team drops, effectively neutering a huge portion of the strategy involved in battling. We ought to be trying to expand the metagame, not centralize it.

 

[familyguyman]

One thing to note, Two-Sided Attack doesn't mean a mixed sweeper. It clearly says two roles which could imply wall or sweeper. Support or Sweeper, Wall or Pest. The point is that it will basically be two styles merged together, not necessarily a mixed sweeper.

 

[Stormbuster]

I thought the concept behind two-sided attack was that it could either fill one role or another, but not both, so as to be more unpredictable.

In addition, I prefer Stop the Secondary because I believe there are already a few pokemon that fill the category of two-sided attack, and that a scout easily finds which role it is using.

 

[familyguyman]

I thought the concept behind two-sided attack was that it could either fill one role or another, but not both, so as to be more unpredictable.

In addition, I prefer Stop the Secondary because I believe there are already a few pokemon that fill the category of two-sided attack, and that a scout easily finds which role it is using.

Right, my wording was poor. I meant that to mean it's two styles in one Pokemon with the restriction that it can only be one or the other but the two styles are merged in one Pokemon. My bad (if that was directed at me).

 

[Sandal8]

I'd be happy with at least immunity to two status effects other than freeze.

Isn't this Fidgit? When I picture "Stop the Secondary," I see someone with SR resistance (Ground, Fighting, or Steel typing), and possible Spikes Immunity (Levitate, Magic Guard), and perhaps 1 or 2 immunities to Leech Seed, Flinch, Toxic Spikes, Poison, Burn, or Paralysis.

Which may just be because I'm a pessimistic noob. As for how well it would fit into a competitive team, wouldn't it be able to fit anywhere, and take a role similar to either Flygon (SR, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Trick, Thunder Wave immunity), or CS Guts Heracross (SR, Toxic Spikes, Paralysis, Burn, Poison)? On the defensive spectrum, Status is the way to go for taking out Stall if you don't have pinpoint prediction, isn't it? So you get an offensive sweeper/scout that doesn't mind status, or a wall that minds it equally less. (Natural Cure Celebi comes to mind.)

Two Sided Attacker: I see either a fast, relatively bulky Pokemon with access to Stat Up moves and either Clerical or Mixed movesets. Salamence (DD vs. Mixed), Latias (CM vs. Cleric), and Celebi (CM vs. Cleric) come to mind, likely having a BST that's through the roof.

One thing to note, Two-Sided Attack doesn't mean a mixed sweeper. It clearly says two roles which could imply wall or sweeper. Support or Sweeper, Wall or Pest. The point is that it will basically be two styles merged together, not necessarily a mixed sweeper.

Yeah, but it'll have access to at least 1 kind of Offensive role, unless you're building Hippowdon/Blissey all over again, right?

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

OU already has "Two-Sided Attackers" (see Lucario), so I think that Stop the Secondary would be a better choice of concept.

 

[Kamen Rider]

I picked Moi concept again because I am very curious to see if something to designed to stop the secoundary effects will deter stall, by making the their secoundary damage source less viable, or actually encouarge stall, by providing an potential shield to other stall and potentially widening the defensive choices.

 

[Sandal8]

OU already has "Two-Sided Attackers" (see Lucario), so I think that Stop the Secondary would be a better choice of concept.

One thing to note, Two-Sided Attack doesn't mean a mixed sweeper. It clearly says two roles which could imply wall or sweeper. Support or Sweeper, Wall or Pest. The point is that it will basically be two styles merged together, not necessarily a mixed sweeper.

 

[Skyte Aero]

I've already voted for Stop the Secondary. But I'm starting to like Two Sided Attack. I can see a Pokemon like Togekiss, but with enough attack to make using Hustle an option. I think either way, the ability will be a key feature.

 

[Class]

Voted for Stop the Secondary because it sounds like it'd be a lot more interesting to test and open up a new element to the game.

 

[moi]

OU already has "Two-Sided Attackers" (see Lucario), so I think that Stop the Secondary would be a better choice of concept.

One thing to note, Two-Sided Attack doesn't mean a mixed sweeper. It clearly says two roles which could imply wall or sweeper. Support or Sweeper, Wall or Pest. The point is that it will basically be two styles merged together, not necessarily a mixed sweeper.

Ok? Just because it doesn't have to be an attacker that can both attack from physical and special doesn't mean that such a pokemon doesn't meet the criteria for the concept, something a lot of you are forgetting. In all honesty, it still applies.

One more thing, you are all ignoring a key part of my submission. The one word VARIETY. I will mention this again. It is not supposed to cover everything. It is not supposed to cover a vast majority, even. A variety is what would fulfill the concept.

 

[Sandal8]

Isn't that jumping the gun a little? But that's the feeling I'm getting for both, as well.

 

[Fuzznip]

Personally, I don't care for either of them. However, if I had to choose one it would be 2in1 because Moi's seems to want to cover to many things at once.

Moi's concept isn't meant to cover everything at once. If you read the concept carefully, it states:

Description: A Pokémon that through means of ability, moves, and typing, can stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin.

"...can stop a variety of the..."

How does this imply everything at once? It's simply saying that this Pokemon can cover multiple non-damaging affect of moves. It could only be designed to block Taunt, Trick, and Status for example. It doesn't have to be made to block Taunt, Trick, Leech Seed, Status, Stealth Rock, Spikes, etc.

 

[Matthew]

Stop the secondary seems to be a better choice in my eyes. Not only will this be a pokemon which can change how the metagame functions, but we will learn about how a pokemon that can safely get into the field without worrying about status, spikes, or Stealth Rocks.

 

[Raikizen]

If I had a pokemon that could stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin, I would make a team of that pokemon and 5 sweepers until the metagame adapted so that everyone had a team of that pokemon and 5 sweepers. Then I would make a team of 6 sweepers to get a jump on everyone else who still thinks anybody else would be foolish enough to throw around non-damaging attacks that have a good chance of doing nothing or possibly hurting their own team in some way. Then everyone would make a team of 6 sweepers because this pokemon would be dead weight. I think there's a strong chance of this concept heading in that direction (if we successfully create this pokemon, that is. Actually, the more I think about it, this concept could work great if it didn't go all the way in fulfilling itself). Let me know if I'm jumping the gun here. I think moi's concept would make a great pokemon, but I think it would shift the metagame way too much (again, to the point where the pokemon would be a shadow member of every team: no one would use it but would assume everyone else had it) by eliminating Stall and, basically, anything but fast offense.

Fast Grass/(???) type, with Magic Guard/ Sticky Hold abilities, that has access to Rapid Spin and Taunt.

or

Salamence-like-clone, that has one stat-booster move and the stats that makes it a mixed sweeper.

Personally, I don't care for either of them. However, if I had to choose one it would be 2in1 because Moi's seems to want to cover to many things at once.

Isn't that jumping the gun a little? But that's the feeling I'm getting for both, as well.

What I don't feel people are seeing about moi's concept is that it is not a fast taunter. It can even block taunt. It could be the first wall that taunt doesn't shut down. It could also be the first sweeper that doesn't have to worry about taking ~40% of it's health just to switch in.

There are a myriad of ways to take a look at this concept. Saying "Oh, it's just a fast Taunt user" or "It has to be grass/poison/etc" is really not only limiting your creative options, but I feel it is not a good mindset to start off CAP 9 with.

 

[Walvren]

Two-Sided Attack in my opinion is the better concept. It allows for more flexiblity, where Stop the Secondary has moves picked out for it (Magic Coat, Taunt, Safeguard...)

Two-Sided Attack has the vagueness to really put your imagination in it and can help us learn about the metagame more. This concept can have teams revolving around it and so can help us learn about prediction.

Stop the Secondary can also teach us about the metagame. It would show us the power of moves that control without using brute force. The thing is, this would turn the CAP metagame to an offensive bias in my opinion.

 

[moi]

ok. i'm going to repeat these facts one last time. before any of you post here again, i pray to god you have read this.

a) You cannot switch in and use a move at the same time
b) You do not have to stop everything, not even close

before anyone of you make a post based on my submission, I really hope you'd of read this or understand it. If you don't, it means you lightly skimmed through my submission and are voting with a severe lack of knowledge, something very harmful to the process.