CaP Revision - Revenankh: Part 2 Discussion

[TAY]

This thread is for the discussion of part two of the CAP revision process for Revenankh. For those of you unaware, in part two we will decide exactly what aspects of Revenankh we want changed. Unless someone gives me a really good reason to include something else, the three options for what will be changed are: Stats, Movepool, and Ability.

So: discuss which of these you think should be changed, and to what degree (based on the results of the last poll, "none" is not an option). Even though it is not part of the upcoming poll, feel free to include specific ideas concerning what should be changed. However, this does NOT mean you can suggest adding anything. This thread will discuss removal/reduction only, so please do not suggest a potential new ability or move or simiar. Please be sure to include a well thought out argument along with your opinion.

Following this thread will be a bold vote in which the options will be Stats, Movepool, and Ability. Each person will be able to vote for as many of the options as they like with either yes, no, or abstaining. I do not wish to force people to vote for or against an area which they do not have an opinion on, and that is the reason for the bold poll as well as the option to abstain. Any of these options with more yes than no votes will be scheduled for a change according to the following discussion. If you have any problems with this method, tell me now.I don't want people complaining about the process after the poll starts, and any such complaints will be ignored in the future.

I'm not sure when exactly I will have internet access (I went to my university to use the computer this time), but we can plan on having this thread open for approximately two days.

----------------------------------

Finally, it was brought up in the previous thread that there should perhaps be a poll to determine if we have a big change or a small change. The main problem I see with this is that defining exactly what a "big" or "small" change is would be a huge hassle (and perhaps even be impossible). However, I do see a problem with the current process in that each category of changes is voted on independently of the others. Therefore, I would like to propose a change to the process. Instead of the next discussion (that means after the next vote), I would like to allow for complete submissions of changes - similar to what is done with stat spreads in the CaP project. This will allow for changes to each aspect which are coherent with one another, instead of what would really be random changes. I would really like everyone's thoughts on this, but as of now I am leaning toward changing the process.

Sorry for the confusion of this process. I'm trying to make this run as smoothly as I can, but with no precedent to work with it can sometimes be difficult. I know that the last minute changes could make this really chaotic, but I am myself hoping to set a useful precedent if and when we go through this process again.

Thanks.

Revenankh Reference: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...22&postcount=5
PR thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45874

 

[Hyra]

Drop Shadow Sneak.
Reduce SDef by 10-20 points.

Already posted arguments about this. Too tired to post them now.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Reduce SpD by 10 points.

If you have to revise him, just decrease his SpD by 10 points. He'll still be sturdy on the special side, but now more special attackers can kill it. I'm totally again the removal of Shadow Sneak. Jesus...what's with Revvy and Shadow Sneak that make everyone cry at night. If you have to remove a move, remove Hammer Arm. Without Hammer Arm, he's lose a huge amount of power and would have to work harder to achieve the same things Hammer Arm could have done.

 

[billymills]

I'm not huge in favor of removing much, however removing shadow sneak is probably the best bet. Fast pokemon such as starmie and gengar would then be able to revenge kill relatively easily. Given that it YES only won by 4 votes, i don't think huge stat/ability changes are necessary.

I'm also slightly in favor of removing hammer arm. The slight change in power (to drain punch or something similar) allows pokemon like jirachi and togekiss switch in slightly easier. Without the speed drop, it gives more emphasis that this is a bulk up pokemon and another curser.

 

[Bluekikatana]

Reduce SpD by 10-15 points.

That will reduce it's ability to bulk up so well. It will die quicker to stab spatks.

 

[Cartoons!]

Stats.
I'll support keeping Shadow Sneak in favor of a larger Special Defense drop. This thing can already make a beastly physical tank, it needs a more pronounced weakness.

 

[Sunday]

Reduce Sdef by 5 to 10 points.

Just make it a tad easier for Special Sweepers to defeat it.

I want to see Shadow Sneak kept. It was one of Revvys main selling points, and something everyone loved at the time of it's conception, so I wouldn't mess with that personally.

 

[omgthatkid]

I think Revenankh's problem lies in its bulkiness, specifically its longevity that allows it to get more powerful.
I think instead of just dropping his Special Defense a couple points, we ought to allocate those points to Attack.
Merely dropping those base stat points will simply decrease Revenankh's usability, and I don't want that.
The reason why Revenankh is a problem is because it can bulk up several times, due to its defenses, then use a reliable recovery move to heal off any damage. So after a couple bulk ups its attack will be at a fairly high level. However, by only reducing its Special Defense stat, Revenankh loses a bulk up or two, thus losing much more power than I think necessary.
So, to conclude, I believe we should transfer some of his bulkiness to his offense. Plus, I think at base 105 Attack and weak STAB moves, a Choice Band set isn't that plausible right now.

 

[Cooper]

Dropping special defense isn't going to do much if no standard special sweepers can switch in against a Bulk Up SS. Without Starmie or Gengar you're reduced to using, what, Azelf or Salamence? The first hardly uses special attacks anymore after the advent of lead Taunt Azelf, and MixMence loses the attacking potential.

Just drop Shadow Sneak and be done with it. Revvy will still be a reliable tank.

 

[Hazmat]

I'd say this is one of those polls/discussions/processes that NEEDS well-informed people making very careful decisions. I don't want to see tons of uninformed people swarming the polls and totally rocking the boat/vote right off of the ocean.

If it came down to the wire THIS close for a revision, making him more balanced will make it EVEN HARDER to do a second revision, so do it right and do it careful.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Dropping special defense isn't going to do much if no standard special sweepers can switch in against a Bulk Up SS. Without Starmie or Gengar you're reduced to using, what, Azelf or Salamence? The first hardly uses special attacks anymore after the advent of lead Taunt Azelf, and MixMence loses the attacking potential.

Aren't you forgetting about Togekiss, Celebi, Cresselia, and a few other decent special threats for Revvy?

 

[sbc]

Reduce Special Defence by 10 at most.

That should be the most without totally shitting over it.

I have never had a single problem with Revenankh, it's not hard to beat.

 

[tennisace]

Remove Mach Punch/Hammer Arm from Revenankh.
Drop the special defense by 10 points, not relocating the points anywhere else.

Why Mach Punch? Well, if we only got rid of Hammer Arm, people could easily run Shadow Punch/Mach Punch. This forces people to run Shadow Sneak/Brick Break. The 10 points is self-explanatory, it just makes it easier for special sweepers to revenge it.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I posted my suggestion in an earlier thread, with quite a bit of reasoning behind it. I still think we should do the following:

Revenankh

Revenankh is too powerful because it is too easy to play and there is only one option for it. The Bulk Up/Hammer Arm/Shadow Sneak/Rest set is the best set by such a wide margin, it's ridiculous. And the set almost plays itself. It requires very little strategy or prediction. And, if you catch a player unaware, or if their Rev counter is gone -- it will completely sweep their team. There is almost nothing you can do to prevent it. You can't sacrifice pokemon by chipping away at it. You can't status it. You can't explode on it. Basically, if you do not have the right pokemon alive and ready -- you lose. It's that simple.

This is not quite as broken as Garchomp, for example, because if you have the right pokemon, you can prevent Rev from setting up and wear it down. With Chomp, even the perfect counter likely had to be sacrificed to take it out. Rev is not that awesome. But, I still think it needs to be toned down. If anything, to introduce some variety and skill into playing with Revenankh.

1. Get rid of Shadow Sneak. If we remove just this one move from Revenankh, it changes the pokemon completely. For users that still want access to a Bulk Up set, they can run BU/Shadow Punch/Mach Punch/Rest. That set can be effective, but not gamebreaking. It allows many more pokemon to be used against Revenakh, WITH PROPER STRATEGY AND PREDICTION. Rev still hits everything neutral or better, it still has access to a priority move after Bulking Up, and it still can ShedRest status and healing. But, by shifting the priority move over to a Fighting move and reducing the BP of the power move -- it makes the Bulk Up set much less of a guaranteed play. Perhaps we'll see more AirLight sets with Hammer Arm/Shadow Punch? Perhaps we see more Ice Punching Revenankhs? I don't know. But, with Shadow Sneak in the mix -- there is really no way to decentralize Revenankh usage.

2. Lower the Special Defense. Rev is too perfect. There is no pokemon in the game with Rev's amazing combination of dual STAB's, defensive prowess, reliable recovery, attacking power, and the ability to boost both sides with a single setup move. Maybe Cresselia, but even she is still Pursuit weak, has a single STAB with poor coverage, and lacks high-BP attacking moves. Suicune is another comparison, but only has one attacking STAB, and lacks reliable recovery. Snorlax is somewhat comparable, but is saddled with an attacking STAB that doesn't hit anything SE, and has no easy recovery. Revenankh really stands alone with its complete offensive/defensive package.

I don't want to remove ShedRest, therefore Revenankh needs to take more damage when hit by special attackers. With a lower SpDef, you could chip away at Revenankh through special attacks and possibly stay in the game. Right now, that isn't really an option. If you don't hit Revenankh hard for SE damage, you are completely screwed. It will set up, ShedRest away the piddly damage and then sweep your entire squad without a sweat. Nerf the Special Defense to bring this pokemon back down to earth.

 

[eric the espeon]

I would now say...

Remove Shadow Sneak
Without this Azelf, Gengar, Espeon, Starmie, and a good few others would be able to come in on a fully set up Rev and take a massive chunk out of its HP. I think this on its own would weaken Revenankh easily enough to make it balanced.

and ONLY of Shadow Sneak stays:
Lower Special Defence by 5-10 points.
If we vote to keep Shadow Sneak then losing 5-10 SpD will do fine. This lets things with powerful Special moves come in and revenge kill it with greater ease.

I do not think that both these changes should happen.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Why do I have the feeling that people who suggest removing Shadow Sneak are only doing it because they prefer to use Gengar/Starmie over Celebi/Togekiss. Why should we pamper certain Pokemon while ignore others. I say that you shouldn't remove something just because you want your favorite Pokemon to have the ability to counter it better. This is competetive battling, there's no such thing as favorisim around here.

 

[eric the espeon]

Why do I have the feeling that people who suggest removing Shadow Sneak are only doing it because they prefer to use Gengar/Starmie over Celebi/Togekiss. Why should we pamper certain Pokemon while ignore others. I say that you shouldn't remove something just because you want your favorite Pokemon to have the ability to counter it better. This is competetive battling, there's no such thing as favorisim around here.

GT we simply want to increase the pool of Pokemon that can stop a Revanankh sweep, or at least dent it without getting hit by a SE STAB priority move.

 

[Magmortified]

I think we should remove Shadow Sneak. Currently, Revenankh is stopped by, what? Togekiss, and Celebi (which still has to use Psychic). Personally, I think there should be better options than requiring this kind of thing to stop Revenankh from gutting your team. I.e. allowing fast Special sweepers like Azelf and Gengar to hit it up. It allows for more ways to kill it, which are definitely needed.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

GT we simply want to increase the pool of Pokemon that can stop a Revanankh sweep, or at least dent it without getting hit by a SE STAB priority move.

Celebi, Togekiss, Jirachi, Cresseila, Yanmega, and Spec Lucario aren't enough pokemon within the special side to stop it. I simply want an explantion on the importance of removing Shadow Sneak or not removing it, and see if this not a case of "I just don't want to use [insert it's regular counter here]."

 

[Hazmat]

Why do I have the feeling that people who suggest removing Shadow Sneak are only doing it because they prefer to use Gengar/Starmie over Celebi/Togekiss. Why should we pamper certain Pokemon while ignore others. I say that you shouldn't remove something just because you want your favorite Pokemon to have the ability to counter it better. This is competetive battling, there's no such thing as favorisim around here.

Perhaps the same could be said for keeping the move on him.

 

[sbc]

Add Metagross, Cresselia, Staraptor, Taunt Gyarados, MS Zapdos and Fidgit to that list.

Some of you are overestimating Shadow Sneak does 37~% to a Bold Cresselia after 3 bulk ups and isn't hurting much with one or two. If you let Rev get 4 bulk ups you deserve to lose.

 

[Deck Knight]

My sole suggestion:

Replace Shed Skin with Early Bird

Revenankh already has the lowest BST and BSR of all of our CAP pokemon. What makes it fundamentally broken is the ShedRest combo. If you could Burn Revenankh and expect it to stay burned, it would lose a lot of power. Early Bird lets it retain its quick Resting recovery, but does not allow it to remove poison or paralysis immediately.

Once you change the ability, Revenankh can be thoroughly curbed by any faster pokemon with Wll-O-Wisp, increasing its counter list greatly. It will also be vulnerable to Roar and Whirlwind for at least one turn, if you can predict the Rest. The only thing that stops Weezing from getting in its grill currently is that Will-O-Wisp doesn't necessarily stick.

I'd much rather remove the seriously overpowered ShedRest than the perfectly justifiable Shadow Sneak. Honestly, if you've let Revenankh Bulk Up on you 3 or 4 timrs you deserve to get sweeped by it. Early Bird lets it keep a quick, reliable form of recovery (as does Air Lock Moonlight) without also granting it de facto immunity from Burn and Paralysis.

 

[Hyra]

Remove Mach Punch/Hammer Arm from Revenankh.
Drop the special defense by 10 points, not relocating the points anywhere else.

Why Mach Punch? Well, if we only got rid of Hammer Arm, people could easily run Shadow Punch/Mach Punch. This forces people to run Shadow Sneak/Brick Break. The 10 points is self-explanatory, it just makes it easier for special sweepers to revenge it.

Shadow Sneak is preferred for removal over Mach Punch because it hits more checks for SE. Mach Punch really only hits Lucario (Revvy counters non-Specs Luke anyways) and Weavile hard enough to OHKO them, while Shadow Sneak hits Gengar, Azelf, Espeon, Alakazam, Mismagius, etc. all the fast Psychics and Ghosts. Being forced to run Brick Break/Shadow does nothing besides require it to take more time Bulking Up.

Togekiss and Celebi are pretty bad counters anyways, and removing Hammer Arm does not change this, G/T. Celebi still resists it, and Togekiss will still be killed when it goes to Roost. This is ignoring that Revenankh can run Ice Punch and 2HKO both of these.

Also, we voted on options for the main STAB attack and Hammer Arm won by a large margin. It would be as disenfranchising to voters as removing Shed Skin is. (Although Deck Knight's idea sounds marvelous, it's just if we can avoid changing abilities, I prefer to not mess with them.)

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Perhaps the same could be said for keeping the move on him.

Perhaps but no one has given me a reasonable explanation onto why removing Shadow Sneak is the best option for it. Celebi, Togekiss, Jirachi, Cresseila, Yanmega, Spec Lucario, Metagross, Staraptor, Taunt Gyarados, MS Zapdos and Fidgit seem like plenty of counters to justify keeping Shadow Sneak.

Togekiss and Celebi are pretty bad counters anyways

Excuse but please explain how Kiss and Celebi are bad counters towards Revvy?

 

[Hyra]

Perhaps but no one has given me a reasonable explanation onto why removing Shadow Sneak is the best option for it.

Celebi - Ice Punch means only those with Leech Seed work.
Togekiss - Ice Punch can hit this on the switch
Jirachi Doesn't like Hammer Arms, but can handle Revenankh
Cresseila Solid counter, I'm just not sure how many actually run Psychic
Yanmega ice Punch once again
Spec Lucario [If STAB Shadow Ball from Gengar fails to kill, Specs Lucario fails to kill[/b]
Metagross I use this all the time
Staraptor Ice Punch once again, but this is better than Yanmega at least
Taunt Gyarados Use this guy too, we designed Revvy intending Gyara to be a counter
MS Zapdos We intended Zappy to be counter
Fidgit lol how does Fidgit do anything but sit there and allow Revvy to Bulk Up? also, Ice Punch seem like plenty of counters to justify keeping Shadow Sneak.

What I will accept from your list is Cresselia, Jirachi, Celebi, Metagross, Gyarados, and Zapdos. Checks / switch-ins you listed are Staraptor, Yanmega, and Togekiss. I've already said that removing Shadow Sneak adds Gengar, Alakazam, Azelf, Espeon, and Mismagius at least to the list of checks / counters.

I don't see why more checks is bad. Although, listing all of that makes me question why we are revising Revvy in the first place, it just seems that dropping Shadow Sneak adds more checks / counters than anything else we could do.

@ the Togekiss/Celebi thing:

I said in that post that Revenankh can run Ice Punch, which both are weak too and take around 50% from after a Bulk Up, making them shaky counters. I run Ice Punch Revenankh, and it really does take those two down.