CAP Updates: Fidgit Discussion -- COMPLETE

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reachzero

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Fidgit is an unusual Pokemon to try to update . One of the earliest CAPs to be created, Fidgit was designed to be a "Pure Utility Pokemon", and given every possible weapon available to it in Generation 4 toward that end. Most noticeably, its unique custom ability Persistent allows Fidgit some clear advantages that remain unmatched to this day. For those unfamiliar with Fidgit's concept, here it is.

fat Aldaron/Magmortified said:
Description: There is a serious lack of Gravity, Rapid Spin, Wish, non Dark weak Trick Room, OU viable Heal Bell / Aromatherapy, Encore, Memento, Non Dark weak Perish Song, Psycho Shift, Safeguard, Magic Coat, Me First, Snatch, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Tailwind and Haze Pokemon in our lovely Metagame. I don't know what type, what stat distribution or even what kind of Pokemon would effectively use all those, but I want to build a utility Pokemon for the useful yet less used utility moves. If I had to narrow the field a bit, I would emphasize Tailwind, Gravity, non Dark weak Trick Room, Rapid Spin, Wish and Encore. The normal utility moves like Reflect and Light Screen go without saying.
Highlighting what Fidgit currently does well is easy. It has strong defensive typing that allows it to check such dangerous threats as Plasmanta, Crucibelle and Tapu Koko; it is one of the few competitively viable Pokemon that can run Stealth Rock + Rapid Spin on the same set. The primary trick that Fidgit has, however, is its peerless mastery of field effects. No other Pokemon runs Trick Room or Tailwind remotely as well, which makes Fidgit virtually mandatory on such teams. Trick Room in particular is a top-flight competitive team build right now, which is a major reason why Fidgit holds its current A ranking in the Viability Rankings.

This is not to say that there is nothing that could be updated for Fidgit; during the initial update discussion, a point that was raised many times is that Vital Spirit gives Fidgit very little competitively at this point in time, essentially giving Fidgit one competitive ability and one flavor ability. This opens the door for us to decide whether we want to give Fidgit a Hidden Ability, and in particular to give it a competitive ability that would help sets that do not use a field effect.

More difficultly, Fidgit's concept, "Pure Utility Pokemon", suggests that it is meant to serve as a platform for using "useful yet less used utility moves". Needless to say, we have received boatloads of such moves in the generations since Fidgit was made, some of which are incredibly strong, other quite weak. Which of these we give Fidgit is a question with serious competitive consequences.

We will address these questions one at a time. This means the first set of questions for discussion are,

1. Do you believe that the metagame would benefit from Fidgit having a second competitive ability?

2. What sort of roles does or could Fidgit perform when it is not using a field effect (i.e. Tailwind or Trick Room)?

3. Which abilities would help Fidgit better perform these roles?

Keep in mind that Fidgit's concept is "Pure Utility Pokemon"; an offensive ability like Adaptability would obviously make Fidgit better, but it would skew it away from the utility that is its very identity. Please don't waste our time by bringing up for discussion abilities that add nothing but offensive power.
 

EPICflygon ( '-')>

Banned deucer.
1. Do you believe that the metagame would benefit from Fidgit having a second competitive ability?
Short answer yes, the reason why i think so as trick room is as you said one of the most powerful archetypes in the metagame right now and Fidgit just makes it better so depending on the ability it can make it so that Fidgit is not just a trick room mon.
2. What sort of roles does or could Fidgit perform when it is not using a field effect (i.e. Tailwind or Trick Room)?
Most likely status spreader/hazards/spinner/momentum but i think thats all :p
3. Which abilities would help Fidgit better perform these roles?
Prankster
is a powerful utility ability that will help other sets while not helping field effects I.e trick room would be in -6 priority bracket and trick room/tail wind wont be extended.
EDIT: unforeseen side-effects i will not delete my post due to it would make other parts of posts look obscure.
 
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(Just a quick unrelated note which won't be relevant until the later stages: like what happened with Voodoom and several other G4 CAPs, some G3 tutor moves somehow snuck into Fidgit's movepool, namely Body Slam and Double-Edge.)
 

snake_rattler

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Prankster is a powerful utility ability that will help other sets while not helping field effects I.e trick room would be in -6 priority bracket and trick room/tail wind wont be extended.
Priority Tailwind, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Disable, Taunt...these are all terrifying. However, the scariest of them all is Prankster Encore. Switch into a boosting move? You better be faster and pack priority because, otherwise, you're boosting until you switches out. Get Prankster out of here.

1. Do you believe that the metagame would benefit from Fidgit having a second competitive ability?
I'm not sure if Fidgit really NEEDS a secondary ability, though that'd get it on more teams than just the standard Tailwind and Trick Room teams.

2. What sort of roles does or could Fidgit perform when it is not using a field effect (i.e. Tailwind or Trick Room)?
Hazard control is the easiest answer. Fidgit is a solid spinner and rocker, and can use spikes if needed. Screens support is also nice, but it's not as great as hazards imo.

3. Which abilities would help Fidgit better perform these roles?
Inner Focus and Magma Armor. I swear that the biggest counters to Fidgit are flinch hax and freeze hax.

Joking aside, if we want to buff Fidgit, Mold Breaker lets it set up hazards against Magic Bouncers like Mega Sableye, the eventual Mega Diancie, and Rebound Colo (if people still use that). It also lets Earth Power hit Rotom-W. I'm not sure if this is something we really want to pursue at all though because again, I'm not totally sure that Fidgit actually needs a buff.

0 SpA Fidgit Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 20 SpD Rotom-Wash: 168-198 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Oblivious is another ability to consider because it blocks Taunt, which always stops Fidgit from doing its job. More useful than Vital Spirit, and a hell of a lot more balanced than Prankster.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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1.
It would certainly benefit from it, as any Pokemon would from getting additional options to utilize. Persistent also isn't that effective outside of possible field effects. My main issue is that it doesn't outright need it. It is still perfectly viable, this is technically a Consistency Update iirc, and giving it stuff would sorta violate Conservation.

2.
I don't think that Fidgit would change in terms of role, as it could still function as masterful hazard control.

3.
Prankster?
No thank you.

I second Oblivious as it ensures that you will get your hazards up, and can Taunt absorb for teammates.

Sturdy could also be an option, as it makes sure it gets one opportunity to set up hazards, even against speed drops.
 

reachzero

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Since it has come up twice already, let me point out a distinction here

I did not ask whether a new ability would benefit Fidgit, or whether it needs a new ability. As LoL said, more options would obviously benefit Fidgit, and Fidgit would be plenty good even if its only ability was Persistent.

What I asked was whether a new competitive ability for Fidgit would benefit the metagame. Would Oblivious Fidgit (to use snake_rattler's example) make the metagame better or worse? The question is not whether a new ability would make Fidgit better (it would), it's whether giving non-field effect sets a useful ability would produce a better metagame.
 

Deck Knight

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To answer reach's more specific question, it really depends on what sets we're envisioning. For example if we were envisioning a more offensive pivot set, Sheer Force along with Life Orb and a stronger but more situational pivoting move like Volt Switch would completely change the way you have to think about Fidgit when you see it.

To be clear I think such a hypothetical set goes against Fidgit's concept and established role, but it does provide some context for what could change the metagame.

Personally I like Oblivious and Mold Breaker the most, and I think either would help improve the metagame by further strengthening Fidgit's role as a Utility Pokemon that now either easily absorbs Taunt or is able to break through Mega Sableye, a Pokemon that works as a force against everything Fidgit has *except* field effects.
 
I personally think that a new ability of use to Fidgit would benefit the metagame, as it would give teams more ways to use Fidgit to support their team, even when they don't need a field effect.

My favorite ability is Oblivious, as it would among other things let Fidgit run purely status moves without having to run an attacking move to avoid being Taunt bait. My other ability I would like to see is Mold Breaker as it lets Fidgit to set hazards against Mega Sableye stall teams, and potentially getting two layers of Toxic Spikes if the foe doesn't have a Poison type and if Fidgit lives long enough.
 
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HeaLnDeaL

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I believe Fidgit's biggest benefit to the metagame is allowing speed control team archetypes to actually be viable. I believe adding a new ability has no way of helping this any further and that any other ability option will not make as much of a healthy impact for it to actually be used enough to count.

Fidgit's non-field effect utility moves are secondary to its ability to singlehandedly make TR and TW viable. Furthermore, utility moves such as encore and taunt are SR and rapid spin are often used on the sets that run TR or TW. Fidgit's blistering 105 base speed makes it not give a crap about taunt the vast majority of the time unless it is using TR (since TR has negative priority). The only other way to help Fidgit set TR is to allow it to be immune to taunt, but dedicating an ability (oblivious, aroma veil) to allow this to happen is never going to be as splashable as Persistent. Giving TR and TW two extra turns is insanely good. Another ability cannot make up for the loss of Persistent and thus another ability cannot be healthy for the metagame. The metagame is not afflicted with a surplus of taunters anyway.

The only "healthy" addition to TR or TW archetypes is an alternative setter, which is far beyond the scope of this singular update. Persistent is king. Want to help it out further? Make a whole new mon that can abuse aroma veil or oblivious as a secondary setter as a partner to Fidgit (idk like something that can secondary set and abuse simultaneously, but again, this is far beyond our scope here and now). But you don't change your primary setter to help the metagame when changing peristent inherently makes the meta less accepting of speed control teams. And we all know the Persistent Fidgit and Oblivious/Aroma Veil Fidgit cannot be on the same team at the same time, so it's moot to turn Fidgit into it's own secondary setter.

The metagame simply can't do better than Persistent and I believe any cheap taunt stopping abilities won't have an impact.

Note that this post completely assumes that speed control teams are healthy for the metagame. With set up sweepers galore, I think speed control is more important than ever. I know some people complain about TR being really good right now, which may be true, but I don't think it's OP or anything... others might think differently.
 
I believe Fidgit's biggest benefit to the metagame is allowing speed control team archetypes to actually be viable. I believe adding a new ability has no way of helping this any further and that any other ability option will not make as much of a healthy impact for it to actually be used enough to count.

Fidgit's non-field effect utility moves are secondary to its ability to singlehandedly make TR and TW viable. Furthermore, utility moves such as encore and taunt are SR and rapid spin are often used on the sets that run TR or TW. Fidgit's blistering 105 base speed makes it not give a crap about taunt the vast majority of the time unless it is using TR (since TR has negative priority). The only other way to help Fidgit set TR is to allow it to be immune to taunt, but dedicating an ability (oblivious, aroma veil) to allow this to happen is never going to be as splashable as Persistent. Giving TR and TW two extra turns is insanely good. Another ability cannot make up for the loss of Persistent and thus another ability cannot be healthy for the metagame. The metagame is not afflicted with a surplus of taunters anyway.

The only "healthy" addition to TR or TW archetypes is an alternative setter, which is far beyond the scope of this singular update. Persistent is king. Want to help it out further? Make a whole new mon that can abuse aroma veil or oblivious as a secondary setter as a partner to Fidgit (idk like something that can secondary set and abuse simultaneously, but again, this is far beyond our scope here and now). But you don't change your primary setter to help the metagame when changing peristent inherently makes the meta less accepting of speed control teams. And we all know the Persistent Fidgit and Oblivious/Aroma Veil Fidgit cannot be on the same team at the same time, so it's moot to turn Fidgit into it's own secondary setter.

The metagame simply can't do better than Persistent and I believe any cheap taunt stopping abilities won't have an impact.

Note that this post completely assumes that speed control teams are healthy for the metagame. With set up sweepers galore, I think speed control is more important than ever. I know some people complain about TR being really good right now, which may be true, but I don't think it's OP or anything... others might think differently.
Just because something has an extremely nice niche doesn't mean we can't add an ability that isn't as viable as the former but has a little bit of viability. Denying that ability that would be like not wanting Aurumoth to get No Guard when it was getting Illusion or denying Tomohawk Intimidate when it has Prankster. On a quick tangent, such a concept of an oblivious abuser would rely on Fidgit, which would tether the two together. Similar to Voodoom and Togekiss, if one in the pair falls out of favor, the other will too.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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I believe Fidgit's biggest benefit to the metagame is allowing speed control team archetypes to actually be viable. I believe adding a new ability has no way of helping this any further and that any other ability option will not make as much of a healthy impact for it to actually be used enough to count.

Fidgit's non-field effect utility moves are secondary to its ability to singlehandedly make TR and TW viable. Furthermore, utility moves such as encore and taunt are SR and rapid spin are often used on the sets that run TR or TW. Fidgit's blistering 105 base speed makes it not give a crap about taunt the vast majority of the time unless it is using TR (since TR has negative priority). The only other way to help Fidgit set TR is to allow it to be immune to taunt, but dedicating an ability (oblivious, aroma veil) to allow this to happen is never going to be as splashable as Persistent. Giving TR and TW two extra turns is insanely good. Another ability cannot make up for the loss of Persistent and thus another ability cannot be healthy for the metagame. The metagame is not afflicted with a surplus of taunters anyway.

The only "healthy" addition to TR or TW archetypes is an alternative setter, which is far beyond the scope of this singular update. Persistent is king. Want to help it out further? Make a whole new mon that can abuse aroma veil or oblivious as a secondary setter as a partner to Fidgit (idk like something that can secondary set and abuse simultaneously, but again, this is far beyond our scope here and now). But you don't change your primary setter to help the metagame when changing peristent inherently makes the meta less accepting of speed control teams. And we all know the Persistent Fidgit and Oblivious/Aroma Veil Fidgit cannot be on the same team at the same time, so it's moot to turn Fidgit into it's own secondary setter.

The metagame simply can't do better than Persistent and I believe any cheap taunt stopping abilities won't have an impact.

Note that this post completely assumes that speed control teams are healthy for the metagame. With set up sweepers galore, I think speed control is more important than ever. I know some people complain about TR being really good right now, which may be true, but I don't think it's OP or anything... others might think differently.
But doesn't forcing a mon that is supposed to use many forms of utility well to use only type of utility extremely well seem not healthy for Fidgit and the metagame, no matter how strong the niche is?

A major part of a metagame's health is the ability to experiment with new options and abilities. That's one of the reasons why Flame Orb Colossoil is a thing; we experimented with a new possible quirk that became available thanks to Gen 7 changes. Now, this doesn't mean we should completely deny Colossoil's choice to use Rebound simply because Guts is currently better. By giving player the choice of two abilities, that allows diversity in teambuilding and creavite usage, resulting in a healthier metagame.

So, forcing Fidgit to conform to only one playstyle is extremely limiting to players wanting to experiment, and makes Fidgit into pretty much what Cawmodore is in terms of linearity. By giving Fidgit a new competitive ability, we are allowing the option of multiple different sets to occur. Heck even Cawmodore, who many agree that the preferred ability to be Volt Absorb and the best set BD, sees constant experimentation with Intimidate and its semi interesting movepool in low ladder. By focusing solely on one type of niche for Fidgit is it not only anti concept, but also unhealthy for the metagame.
 
I'm inclined to agree that Fidgit's most defining niche right now is due to its signature ability, Persistent. Thanks to this ability, Fidgit is the lynchpin of Trick Room and Tailwind teams simply because two extra turns of these effects are so incredibly valuable. I don't think we should give Fidgit any significant competitive buffs.

If Fidgit isn't running Trick Room or Tailwind, it's almost certainly running a set geared heavily towards entry hazard stacking. This is usually something along the lines of SR/Spikes/STAB move/U-turn, potentially with Rapid Spin or another utility move swapped in depending on team composition. On these sets, the only reason Vital Spirit is chosen is because it's not entirely worthless, not because it's a great ability for Fidgit. This was true this generation and last generation, but some things have changed since then. Regarding Vital Spirit's current usefulness, many sleep inducers such as Breloom, Amoonguss, and Spore Necturna (lol) have all taken a hit in viability since Gen 6. Sleep inducers in the current metagame are few and far between, meaning that Vital Spirit is almost irrelevant enough to be considered a non-competitive ability.

While I'd be content with just adding another flavor ability, I don't think a competitive ability is out of the question by any means. Such an ability shouldn't be something that looks to buff TR/Tailwind Fidgit (frankly, this would be really hard to do since Persistent is so great), and it absolutely shouldn't be something that buffs non-TR/Tailwind Fidgit by such an absurd degree that it surpasses the viability of Persistent Fidgit. The main offender here so far is Prankster. The metagame does not need another priority Stealth Rock setter, especially one that also learns Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Tailwind, Taunt, Encore, and a bunch of other utility moves. I'd be wary of Mold Breaker and Taunt-immune abilities as well, but I don't think they're anywhere near as egregious as Prankster.

I'm going to suggest Frisk as an example of what I'm thinking for Fidgit. It's not a huge competitive upgrade by any means, but I'd totally run it over the nearly useless Vital Spirit on a hazard stacking set. Fidgit has a poor matchup versus some fairly common Pokemon like Landorus-T, Tomohawk, and Colossoil, where it's usually forced to U-turn or hard switch. Frisk doesn't allow it to beat these mons, but it provides helpful information to the player since Fidgit finds itself checked by some very versatile Pokemon. Here are some examples of Frisk's potential uses: if Fidgit leads against Landorus-T and finds a Rocky Helmet, you know you're safe to switch to your Tomohawk without getting blasted by Z-Fly. If Fidgit leads against Tomohawk and finds a Life Orb, you should make sure your switch-in can eat an Earth Power Hurricane. If Fidgit leads against Colossoil and sees the rare and dreaded Choice Scarf, you should probably consider hard switching instead of clicking U-turn.

So there's my take on it. Add a situationally helpful ability as opposed to something that provides a significant competitive buff.
 

reachzero

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So far the suggestions that have been made for secondary abilities have included Oblivious, Mold Breaker, Sturdy and Frisk. Of these, only Oblivious and Mold Breaker have gotten more than one mention. I am interested in hearing whether the other two abilities have any support, and especially whether there are any concerns regarding the level of power represented by Mold Breaker hazard stacking, especially against stall (Dugtrio notwithstanding).

HeaLnDeal, on the other hand, has suggested that Fidgit should not have any metagame role outside of dedicated field effect teams, a position I would associate with No Competitive Ability. I disagree with him, as I believe Fidgit has other merits by virtue of its typing and combination of useful moves such as Rapid Spin and Encore, but this will by necessity be an option when we go to the poll, and you may post here to support this option, if you wish.

This discussion will go to a poll in 48 hours.
 
So I want to discuss why we should even be considering a competitive ability at all. So when the updates began, there was the priority poll. People voted on what they thought was needed. However, sometimes people realize that there's something else they want more when they take a deeper look at it. For example, Plasmanta was voted Minor leaning Major. Right now, it can only MAYBE get Aura Sphere. That's because people at the time thought that Plasmanta needed a moderately competitive update. However, when the discussion went further into detail as to what Plasmanta could do, it led to where we are now. Likewise, people voted Consistency Majority on Fidgit. However, when we started diving into Fidgit, people realized it would need some competitive updates. Consistency isn't strictly flavor. It's to make the CAPs seem like Gen 7 mons. Technically speaking, Fidgit was made before HAs were a thing, so it isn't too farfetched it would get something like Oblivious or even Mold Breaker from Dream World. We can't do this update strictly with flavor. The concept is everlasting in the sense of any underused utility move is supposed to go to this thing. There are Plenty of moves for Fidgit to get. It's going to get a buff. We can't avoid that. Oblivious isn't going to be used much over Persistent. How many people use Fidgit outside of TR or Tailwind? Not too many people, that is for sure. I would be totally against it if the abilities being slated were too strong (Like Prankster and to an extent Mold Breaker), but we have safer choices. Gaining Oblivious will not make Fidgit S-Tier.
 
Firstly, I'm going to state that I am in full agreement with Heal. Most simply put, Fidgit's primary roles in this metagame are controlling speed-related field effects and the occasional hazard set. No ability that you can add as of right now will outshine Persistent in respect to the first role. This creates a problem, as it forces the ability we wish to add to either be purely flavor or benefit a style of Fidgit that simply isn't used as much. Why is that a problem? Well, neither of those types of ability buffs will really affect the metagame much, by the virtue of either having no effect, or only rarely being seen. Giving Fidgit an ability like Oblivious or Frisk is only going to be a quality of life change for a rare set. It likely won't cause any perceptible change in the use of hazards Fidgit, and thus the metagame remains unaffected. It just barely avoids becoming adding for the sake of adding by merit of being the only real ability change that isn't stupidly good or anti-concept. However, this is not to say Fidgit should only be relegated to field effect controls. It simply wishes to state that field effect sets, in the foreseeable future, will always be inherently more impactful than hazard setting sets, largely because of the overlap between the two.

This brings me to a second logistical problem I've encountered in this situation. I'll use the previously suggested Prankster to illustrate. Prankster is undeniably great for Fidgit, due to the sheer amount of affected moves (Prankster Encore anyone?). It would revolutionize the way people think about Fidgit and likely provide a new role entirely for it. In fact, Prankster is such a powerful ability that it could potentially compete with Persistent for a commonly used set. Herein lies the problem. Persistent is such a strong ability for Fidgit that it necessitates another very strong ability, like Prankster, on Fidgit to create any meaningful shift in its role in the metagame. Since we're trying to avoid buffing already good mons, we don't want to give Fidgit a strong ability. Thus, we've effectively locked ourselves into a corner on this; we've forced ourselves into the awkward situation of only having quality of life changes as viable ability updates that don't violate principle. Now, please don't take this as an endorsement of Prankster; I stand firmly against the addition of anything powerful to Fidgit that would change its role, since we are aiming to keep continuity here. I'm simply stating that there really isn't anything effective to be done here. By attempting to buff the hazard role, we either end up going to far, or doing effectively nothing.

Now, to address the specific concerns of Oblivious v. Frisk v. Mold Breaker, I will say that I support Frisk more than Oblivious which I support more than Mold Breaker. I support No Competitive Change more than any of those three, but if I had to choose, I would choose Frisk. To me, Oblivious falls into the trap of trying to buff the hazard set more so than Frisk, because it only has to deal with Taunt-blocking and effectively locks Fidgit into either choosing hazard setting or field effects. Frisk on the other hand establishes a slightly expanded role for Fidgit as a scout. It is still at its core a quality of life update for the hazard set, as it will never be run more than Persistent, however it does not lock Fidgit into its already established niches as much as I feel Oblivious would. Lastly, Mold Breaker to me just seems far too niche of a buff to even be considered a quality of life change, as magic bouncers are about as common as sleep inducers in the current metagame, only superseding them because of M-Sableye.

All in all, Fidgit is already an excellent mon. At most for the ability update, I would support a flavor addition, as any attempts to buff hazards may accidentally further lock Fidgit into its current niches without actually accomplishing anything, being bad for both Fidgit and the metagame as a whole.
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

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I'm not going to make a long winded post on what would make Fidgit better, however I am going to say that Mold Breaker even being up for discussion is silly. Fidgit has too many utility moves for Mold Breaker to even be considered. Mold Breaker hazards, taunt, and never miss toxic would maybe overshadow the persistent sets is what I think. Don't get me wrong speed control is a very clutch strategy that can be huge but the utility that Mold Breaker would allow could be equally huge. Mold Breaker, I think, would simply allow Fidget to function too well as a utility. Here is a small list off the top of the head that Fidget could do with this ability:

  • Use Taunt against Magic Bounce, Oblivious, and Aroma Veil
  • Use a never miss Toxic against Magic Bounce and Immunity
  • Use hazards against Magic Bounce
  • Use STAB Earth Power against Levitate
  • Use Mud Slap/Icy Wind against Clear Body
Now this is just a small list and I'm sure there is something I left out, but I think I made my point clear.
In case you are wondering Fidget does Icy Wind Metagross on the switch in, lower the speed with Mold Breaker if not mega evolved, and does enough damage to finish off with Earth Power after mega evolution. An item such as Earth Plate, Life Orb, or Expert Belt are needed to ensure the KO but that is still pretty impressive. To summarize I do not support Mold Breaker. Oblivious and Frisk seem okay. Not too many things with Taunt are quicker than Fidget to begin with and even then I think those things wouldn't run Taunt often enough to make an impact. Frisk would make Fidget be able to scout some sets which could be useful potentially. Neither would overshadow Persistent which is Fidget's niche.
 
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Drapionswing

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Why are we discussing competitive changes for consisteny pokemon, and are we going to be buffing every CAP? No matter how small you want to call this buff, at the end of the day it is still a buff and should be avoided. Not a single move is flavor and all have potential to buff fidgits role as a hazard setter. It's already an A rank mon it doesn't NEED this buff... if we're buffing A rank mons does that mean the likes of Volkraken and Pyroak are going to be seeing buffs too? Why is this a trend right now...

Edit: "A Consistency Update has a marginal competitive scope and is focused on bringing the CAP Pokemon up to date with the expectations of competitive Pokemon of the Generation's release." The first 3 questions don't follow this.
 
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Deck Knight

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Generally speaking I think the prime source of whatever benefits Fidgit should get are additional support moves that match it's concept.

Don't get me wrong, I think discussing Fidgit and whether it should get a Competitive or a Flavor Ability is important, but ultimately I think the metagame will be more impacted by additional support moves than by any ability we might give Fidgit, and I don't think Fidgit needs an ability that changes how it plays. Mold Breaker changes how Fidgit plays and what it can play against. Frisk and Oblivious don't and of course I think only Mold Breaker would really compete with Persistent at all, just because of the side benefit if hitting Rotom and Stratagem with Earth Power.

One other ability that may work and won't change the way Fidgit plays: Sticky Hold. If Fidgit is utilzing a weather rock or a terrain extender, Sticky Hold prevents that item from being knocked off, allowing it to keep the full effect. This does mean taking full damage from Knock Off every time, but with the exception of Colossoil that really isn't a big deal with 95 HP / 109 Def.
 
Generally speaking I think the prime source of whatever benefits Fidgit should get are additional support moves that match it's concept.

Don't get me wrong, I think discussing Fidgit and whether it should get a Competitive or a Flavor Ability is important, but ultimately I think the metagame will be more impacted by additional support moves than by any ability we might give Fidgit, and I don't think Fidgit needs an ability that changes how it plays. Mold Breaker changes how Fidgit plays and what it can play against. Frisk and Oblivious don't and of course I think only Mold Breaker would really compete with Persistent at all, just because of the side benefit if hitting Rotom and Stratagem with Earth Power.

One other ability that may work and won't change the way Fidgit plays: Sticky Hold. If Fidgit is utilzing a weather rock or a terrain extender, Sticky Hold prevents that item from being knocked off, allowing it to keep the full effect. This does mean taking full damage from Knock Off every time, but with the exception of Colossoil that really isn't a big deal with 95 HP / 109 Def.
That is a very good point. Moves are likely the biggest thing that will help Fidgit. I'm in favor of Sticky Hold, as it boosts Fidgit's overall utility without being too much. I still like Oblivious more, as it gives Fidgit the option to go status only (though EP is by no means bad).
 

snake_rattler

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Alright, I know I posted about Mold Breaker and Oblivious, but hear me out guys.

As consistency updates, I think we need to avoid adding things just because we can ("adding for the sake of adding"). This would constitute as adding new abilities to Fidgit because it doesn't need them, nor are trends in the game saying that it needs them.

Let's look at Krilowatt. How the thread has panned out so far: "Most Electric-types and Water-types get Volt Switch and Scald respectively, so should we add them to Krilowatt?" Then, we did a little bit of competitive analysis, and while we haven't come to a full conclusion, it seems like we've determined that these moves won't break Krilowatt or anything.

This isn't the case for this thread. It isn't suddenly "all utility Pokemon get Mold Breaker/Oblivious/Prankster." This discussion has played out to be "how do we make Fidgit better" when it's already a solid mon. I'm not against Sticky Hold or Frisk because they have particular flavor value and have limited competitive usage so they fit into the Consistency line of things, but the others need a harder look.

However, what I really don't want to see from this thread is setting a bad precedent. I think we can all agree that Pyroak, Volkraken, and Syclant are all good mons. But what if we have to considered competitive ability changes to those? It doesn't look particularly dangerous on this update because Fidgit is a utility mon and can't blast everything in the metagame.

1. Fidgit has a bunch of utility moves - let's give it Oblivious so it can use them all without having to worry about Taunt. Fair enough.
2. Pyroak has Fire Blast, Solarbeam, Growth, and Synthesis - it looks like a good Drought abuser; let's give it Drought!
3. Volkraken punishes switch-ins with Analytic. You know what punishes them better? Stakeout. Let's give Volkraken Stakeout.
4. Syclant already ignores Stealth Rock damage anyway. Why not add Magic Guard?

These examples might be a little extreme, but I don't want Fidgit getting a seemingly harmless ability update to set a terrible precedent for the rest of our updates because examples 2, 3, and 4 REALLY don't need to happen.


So how do I think consistency updates should pan out?

This is how Syclant should play out imo:
"Syclant is a Gen 4 mon that had access to the best Ice-type moves of its time. However, Gen 5 introduced Icicle Crash. Should we allow Icicle Crash by consistency standard? Is it too strong of an addition?"

If the answer is no, then it's fine to add.

Similarly, and I'm not saying that reach isn't running this thread properly, but I feel like this is how Fidgit should run its course:
"Fidgit is a Gen 4 mon that had access to a bunch of utility moves. However, the past few Gens have introduced new utility moves. Are any of those good by consistency standard? Is it too strong of an addtion?"

If we look at something like Sticky Web, well of course it's going to change the way Fidgit functions. Sticky Web would be a ridiculous addition. However, if we look at something like say, Grassy Terrain (the move), Fidgit gets a bunch of field effects, so it's a potential candidate for a consistency move. (Note that Grassy Terrain would not get Persistent boost because Terrain Extender exists.)

Basically, when we do consistency updates, they should inherently be based on moves because ability trends aren't mandated by Game Freak from gen to gen. New moves have better trends for us to base our updates on.
 
Last edited:

reachzero

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Alright, I know I posted about Mold Breaker and Oblivious, but hear me out guys.

As consistency updates, I think we need to avoid adding things just because we can ("adding for the sake of adding"). This would constitute as adding new abilities to Fidgit because it doesn't need them, nor are trends in the game saying that it needs them.

Let's look at Krilowatt. How the thread has panned out so far: "Most Electric-types and Water-types get Volt Switch and Scald respectively, so should we add them to Krilowatt?" Then, we did a little bit of competitive analysis, and while we haven't come to a full conclusion, it seems like we've determined that these moves won't break Krilowatt or anything.

This isn't the case for this thread. It isn't suddenly "all utility Pokemon get Mold Breaker/Oblivious/Prankster." This discussion has played out to be "how do we make Fidgit better" when it's already a solid mon. I'm not against Sticky Hold or Frisk because they have particular flavor value and have limited competitive usage so they fit into the Consistency line of things, but the others need a harder look.

However, what I really don't want to see from this thread is setting a bad precedent. I think we can all agree that Pyroak, Volkraken, and Syclant are all good mons. But what if we have to considered competitive ability changes to those? It doesn't look particularly dangerous on this update because Fidgit is a utility mon and can't blast everything in the metagame.

1. Fidgit has a bunch of utility moves - let's give it Oblivious so it can use them all without having to worry about Taunt. Fair enough.
2. Pyroak has Fire Blast, Solarbeam, Growth, and Synthesis - it looks like a good Drought abuser; let's give it Drought!
3. Volkraken punishes switch-ins with Analytic. You know what punishes them better? Stakeout. Let's give Volkraken Stakeout.
4. Syclant already ignores Stealth Rock damage anyway. Why not add Magic Guard?

These examples might be a little extreme, but I don't want Fidgit getting a seemingly harmless ability update to set a terrible precedent for the rest of our updates because examples 2, 3, and 4 REALLY don't need to happen.


So how do I think consistency updates should pan out?

This is how Syclant should play out imo:
"Syclant is a Gen 4 mon that had access to the best Ice-type moves of its time. However, Gen 5 introduced Icicle Crash. Should we allow Icicle Crash by consistency standard? Is it too strong of an addition?"

If the answer is no, then it's fine to add.

Similarly, and I'm not saying that reach isn't running this thread properly, but I feel like this is how Fidgit should run its course:
"Fidgit is a Gen 4 mon that had access to a bunch of utility moves. However, the past few Gens have introduced new utility moves. Are any of those good by consistency standard? Is it too strong of an addtion?"

If we look at something like Sticky Web, well of course it's going to change the way Fidgit functions. Sticky Web would be a ridiculous addition. However, if we look at something like say, Grassy Terrain (the move), Fidgit gets a bunch of field effects, so it's a potential candidate for a consistency move. (Note that Grassy Terrain would not get Persistent boost because Terrain Extender exists.)

Basically, when we do consistency updates, they should inherently be based on moves because ability trends aren't mandated by Game Freak from gen to gen. New moves have better trends for us to base our updates on.
It's hard for me to judge here how much of this is polemic and how much of this is serious. Steps #2, 3 and 4 involve taking clearly beneficial abilities already used on a dominant set and augmenting them to make the dominant set even more dominant. The dominant Fidgit set is the field effect set, and it uses Persistent virtually all the time, and it is hard to imagine any ability that would be more useful to that set than Persistent is. It would hardly be surprising for me to say that not every set is equally good. Last generation, for instance, we maintained Set Viability Rankings (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-sets-viability-rankings.3574943/) attempting to describe the differences in power between each set of each good Pokemon. Giving non-field effect Fidgit a small boost would not in any way boost field effect Fidgit, so I don't really see how the comparison with Volkraken, Syclant or Pyroak applies.

In fact, the more reasonable comparison, if one is to be made, is between Fidgit in its original environment (DP[P]) and Fidgit now. DPP had a dedicated lead metagame that included Roserade and Breloom, each of which prominently used Sleep moves. As strange as it sounds to say now, Hypnosis was also a fairly substantial feature of the metagame, especially before people adjusted to Platinum's nerf of Hypnosis' accuracy. Vital Spirit was a competitive ability in its own right, so there were clear situations in which one would use Persistent and others in which Vital Spirit was preferable. As we have already noted, Sleep is extremely rare in SM CAP, to the extent that in the vast majority of games, Vital Spirit serves no purpose whatsoever. Even a relatively weak competitive ability, like the aforementioned Frisk or Sticky Hold, would be preferable. It is, of course, easy to ask "why should Fidgit have two competitive abilities, or even two competitive sets?" The question is fair, but it cannot simply be overlooked that both of Fidgit's abilities have always been useful until this generation.

Moreover, Fidgit is a 4th Generation CAP, and there is strong precedent for Pokemon that already had strong viability and two abilities receiving a competitive Hidden Ability. Ignoring the single-ability highly ranked threats that got excellent Hidden Abilities (like Gyarados and Dragonite), Breloom gained Technician, Gliscor received Poison Heal, Lucario received Justified, Mamoswine gained Thick Fat and Starmie gained Analytic. I am in no way arguing that Fidgit needs or should get an ability on that level of power; in fact, I think a second ability should be muted in its level of power (i.e. not Mold Breaker). I am saying, however, that the precedent set by the actual transition from 4th to 5th Generation in no way precludes a strong Pokemon from receiving a competitive Hidden Ability, even when it already possesses two abilities. That being said, I feel the "two competitive ability" limit is wise, and I would note that each of the Pokemon mentioned in this paragraph have, in fact, a maximum of two competitive abilities (unless you consider Effect Spore and/or Hyper Cutter competitive, which I think is a bit of a stretch).

That being said, I have heard numerous objections to the level of power represented by Mold Breaker, an ability of which I was already suspicious. In response to community concerns I will remove Mold Breaker from consideration.
 

snake_rattler

Bold to assume that I won't have the last laugh...
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It's hard for me to judge here how much of this is polemic and how much of this is serious. Steps #2, 3 and 4 involve taking clearly beneficial abilities already used on a dominant set and augmenting them to make the dominant set even more dominant. The dominant Fidgit set is the field effect set, and it uses Persistent virtually all the time, and it is hard to imagine any ability that would be more useful to that set than Persistent is. It would hardly be surprising for me to say that not every set is equally good. Last generation, for instance, we maintained Set Viability Rankings (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-sets-viability-rankings.3574943/) attempting to describe the differences in power between each set of each good Pokemon. Giving non-field effect Fidgit a small boost would not in any way boost field effect Fidgit, so I don't really see how the comparison with Volkraken, Syclant or Pyroak applies.

In fact, the more reasonable comparison, if one is to be made, is between Fidgit in its original environment (DP[P]) and Fidgit now. DPP had a dedicated lead metagame that included Roserade and Breloom, each of which prominently used Sleep moves. As strange as it sounds to say now, Hypnosis was also a fairly substantial feature of the metagame, especially before people adjusted to Platinum's nerf of Hypnosis' accuracy. Vital Spirit was a competitive ability in its own right, so there were clear situations in which one would use Persistent and others in which Vital Spirit was preferable. As we have already noted, Sleep is extremely rare in SM CAP, to the extent that in the vast majority of games, Vital Spirit serves no purpose whatsoever. Even a relatively weak competitive ability, like the aforementioned Frisk or Sticky Hold, would be preferable. It is, of course, easy to ask "why should Fidgit have two competitive abilities, or even two competitive sets?" The question is fair, but it cannot simply be overlooked that both of Fidgit's abilities have always been useful until this generation.

Moreover, Fidgit is a 4th Generation CAP, and there is strong precedent for Pokemon that already had strong viability and two abilities receiving a competitive Hidden Ability. Ignoring the single-ability highly ranked threats that got excellent Hidden Abilities (like Gyarados and Dragonite), Breloom gained Technician, Gliscor received Poison Heal, Lucario received Justified, Mamoswine gained Thick Fat and Starmie gained Analytic. I am in no way arguing that Fidgit needs or should get an ability on that level of power; in fact, I think a second ability should be muted in its level of power (i.e. not Mold Breaker). I am saying, however, that the precedent set by the actual transition from 4th to 5th Generation in no way precludes a strong Pokemon from receiving a competitive Hidden Ability, even when it already possesses two abilities. That being said, I feel the "two competitive ability" limit is wise, and I would note that each of the Pokemon mentioned in this paragraph have, in fact, a maximum of two competitive abilities (unless you consider Effect Spore and/or Hyper Cutter competitive, which I think is a bit of a stretch).

That being said, I have heard numerous objections to the level of power represented by Mold Breaker, an ability of which I was already suspicious. In response to community concerns I will remove Mold Breaker from consideration.
I will say that Example (not step, whoops) #2 still applies to what I'm afraid of: giving A rank (or however you want to call it, they're good mons) new abilities when they don't really need them. #2 is more of a direct comparison because Pyroak doesn't run a sun-abusing set. #3 and #4 were meant to be a little extreme only because I was voicing my fears of the "hey, why not?" sentiment. I know we'd never give Syclant Magic Guard or Volkraken Stakeout though. I don't want us getting to the point where we think we HAVE to give a mon a new ability, whether the mon is good or not.

Your reply does ease my concerns though, given that there's more reasoning to giving Fidgit a minor competitive ability that's not just "why not?", so sorry for derailing this thread. Personally, I'd like to see Frisk on Fidgit because scouting for Z Crystals is pretty useful, especially on a mon switching in a lot to control hazards. Oblivious is pretty neat too though.
 

reachzero

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As a result of the poll, Frisk is Fidgit's new Hidden Ability, slightly improving its non-field effect sets.

As a Pure Utility Pokemon, moves are Fidgit's bread and butter. There have been very many utility moves added to the game since Fidgit was designed, but it is important to remember that Fidgit is already very strong, and it already possesses most of the moves it would want. Before we talk about moves based purely on flavor, we should discuss which moves are too powerful competitively to be considered for a flavor update, especially considering their potential impact on Fidgit's balance.

In this regard, I'm going to go ahead and Disallow Sticky Web. Necturna has confirmed what we really already knew, that Sticky Web is so powerful as to be team-defining, and would be massively overpowered on Fidgit. Let's not even walk down that road.

On the other hand, there are moves that are questionable in terms of competitive impact, especially as it relates to Fidgit's concept. A good example, brought up to me by old_gregg in #cap, is Acid Spray. It forces switches somewhat, but is it too offensive to fit Fidgit's concept?

Some questions for discussion:

1. What moves might be added in the update that would raise competitive concerns? Are these moves consistent with Fidgit's concept and a balanced level of power?

2. What are some moves that we might like to see added to Fidgit that fit its concept but are not strictly suggested by flavor (e.g. Wonder Room)?
 
What are some moves that we might like to see added to Fidgit that fit its concept but are not strictly suggested by flavor (e.g. Wonder Room)?

I only found only three moves (one with Snek's help) that might be useful.

Topsy-Turvy is a nice move, as it's a more useful and punishing version of Haze. Combined with Persistent Tailwind, set-up sweepers will cry. Flavor wise, it could probably turn you upside down with those hands. Imagine it doing that to frisk you! This is probably the best and my personal favorite move of these three.

Buldoze has a move-to-move correlation with EQ and lowers speed. Might not be really good, especially with Technician Bulldoze Argho existing now, but it isn't terrible.

Speed Swap is the most niche move of these three, as Fidgit has nice speed. Maybe a mix of min-speed TW Speed Swap against faster things. It also gets Trick Room so it has correlation with psychic powers.
 
1. What moves might be added in the update that would raise competitive concerns? Are these moves consistent with Fidgit's concept and a balanced level of power?

Yawn:
yawn is a really good atack wich make a change and fidgit can put hazzard and if have magic bounce i can use role play or gastro acid beacuse now i can play with what is the abilitty my oppenet have

thats is the only move to coming in my mind to buff fidgit beacuse fidgit have options to deal with taunt, or magic bounce i was thinking in magic coat but i'm not to sure beacuse is just only 1 turn move
 
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