CAP Updates: Fidgit Discussion -- COMPLETE

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LucarioOfLegends

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1. What moves might be added in the update that would raise competitive concerns? Are these moves consistent with Fidgit's concept and a balanced level of power?

2. What are some moves that we might like to see added to Fidgit that fit its concept but are not strictly suggested by flavor (e.g. Wonder Room)?

I think that the Terrain moves would be interesting move additions to Fidgit, as they give it the possibility of passive effects, while not getting a Persistent boost because of the Terrain Extender. However, I am slightly worried about the strength of Misty Terrain. Giving status immunity to your entire team is a scary thing, especially when the Terrain Extender could be used on Fidgit. Psychic and Electric Terrain do very little for Fidgit, as it stops only a few things. Grassy Terrain also sounds very good on Fidgit, with less having to wory about Earthquake and can gain passive recovery while setting up.
 

snake_rattler

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1. What moves might be added in the update that would raise competitive concerns? Are these moves consistent with Fidgit's concept and a balanced level of power?

Acid Spray and Clear Smog are two Poison-type utility moves that Fidgit could get access to. Acid spray can't force too many switches on its own, forcing Fidgit to have to sacrifice a utility moveslot for Earth Power or something. Clear Smog lets Fidgit remove boosts, but it'll generally be useful only against Speed boosts because Fidgit has a hard time living boosted attacks without a Focus Sash.

"Utility" mons like Klefki get Foul Play. I'm not sure if this is adequate precedent, but I feel like Foul Play warrants discussion.

Fidgit should get Bulldoze by move-to-move correlation with Earthquake, and I don't see it being useful as long as Earth Power Fidgit stick around.

2. What are some moves that we might like to see added to Fidgit that fit its concept but are not strictly suggested by flavor (e.g. Wonder Room)?

Aurora Veil, while breaking all typing trends, lets Fidgit set up screens in every way possible, so I think it's worth discussing.

Purify is another move that Fidgit could make use of: it already gets Wish so unreliable healing isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Magic Room and Wonder Room get Persistent boost, and they're completely useless competitively.
 

BP

formerly Broken Phobias
What moves might be added in the update that would raise competitive concerns? Are these moves consistent with Fidgit's concept and a balanced level of power?
In my opinion a recovery move might be suggest which could end up complicating things. A recovery move other than Healing Wish is not consistent and isn't balanced and there fore should not be added.

What are some moves that we might like to see added to Fidgit that fit its concept but are not strictly suggested by flavor (e.g. Wonder Room)?
Aurora Veil would actually be a lot of fun and would definitely fit it's concept however it is only learned by Ice types so this does add in some difficulty in deciding whether or not Fidgit should receive it.

Misty Terrain is also a move I could see it getting. Just for Utility, I mean it is not going to be used on a set as Fidgit is already full of sets to use.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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I do not believe that Fidgit should learn aurora veil because I believe aurora veil works best on mons that directly set hail. Since hail needs to be set before aurora veil can be cast, it turns Fidgit into needing support to give support, which seems a bit odd since currently Fidgit does a pretty great job of supporting a team all by itself. I'm not trying to say aurora veil would be awful or unusable, but I don't think Fidgit is the mon to properly explore the move's capabilities... And the increased difficulty of setting it in the first place could potentially be a deterrent anyway.

There certainly might be interesting supporting synergies in the future, but I don't believe the meta has the tools to abuse aurora veil on an non-snow warning mon. Veil Fidgit would either be used on a fairly dedicated Hail team and have to set up veil and then switch out, wasting two turns of hail and of slush rush in the process or Fidgit would be used on a less dedicated hail team that would have mons that would take hail damage and slightly offset the increased bulk... In either situation, I don't see Fidgit truly competing with the role compression of setting hail and setting veil provided by Ninetails-A.... And there's even concerns of how viable Ninetails-A truly can be... There's definitely ways a non ice, non hail setting mon can use and abuse aurora veil, but the steps needed to make that function smoothly seems beyond the scope of a Fidgit update :s

TLDR: Aurora Veil is a cool move that cannot be adequately explored just as an offhanded, "why not?" Fidgit update.
 
I think it'd be appropriate to address Fidgit's signature ability here and discuss updating it for consistency, especially since we're considering adding moves like Wonder Room and Magic Room. Had they existed in Gen 4, they would've likely been affected by Persistent, as they're similar to field effects like Trick Room and Gravity in that they cannot be extended by a held item.
Magic Room and Wonder Room get Persistent boost, and they're completely useless competitively.
This post caught my attention, so snake and I decided to test Persistent's mechanics: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-575581345. Turns out Persistent does not currently affect these moves on PS. Might be worth a look.
 

BP

formerly Broken Phobias
I do not believe that Fidgit should learn aurora veil because I believe aurora veil works best on mons that directly set hail. Since hail needs to be set before aurora veil can be cast, it turns Fidgit into needing support to give support, which seems a bit odd since currently Fidgit does a pretty great job of supporting a team all by itself. I'm not trying to say aurora veil would be awful or unusable, but I don't think Fidgit is the mon to properly explore the move's capabilities... And the increased difficulty of setting it in the first place could potentially be a deterrent anyway.

There certainly might be interesting supporting synergies in the future, but I don't believe the meta has the tools to abuse aurora veil on an non-snow warning mon. Veil Fidgit would either be used on a fairly dedicated Hail team and have to set up veil and then switch out, wasting two turns of hail and of slush rush in the process or Fidgit would be used on a less dedicated hail team that would have mons that would take hail damage and slightly offset the increased bulk... In either situation, I don't see Fidgit truly competing with the role compression of setting hail and setting veil provided by Ninetails-A.... And there's even concerns of how viable Ninetails-A truly can be... There's definitely ways a non ice, non hail setting mon can use and abuse aurora veil, but the steps needed to make that function smoothly seems beyond the scope of a Fidgit update :s

TLDR: Aurora Veil is a cool move that cannot be adequately explored just as an offhanded, "why not?" Fidgit update.
After reading HeaL's most recent post I have to agree with his logic and reasoning. It doesn't really make sense to give Fidgit Aurora Veil without also giving it hail. Even so Aurora Veil currently isn't that widely distributed so it really isn't wise to just toss it on Fidgit.

Regarding sparktrain I don't know if throwing on Wonder Room and Magic Room is the best decision. I think that might be a tad too much and the reason for this is because why would we have te coders do extra work just to make those 2 moves boosted by persistent. I'm not sure if it is really feasable considering they are purely flavor. This is just something to think about
 

reachzero

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We've had some really good discussion here, and several important points were brought up. The moves that have been brought up as potentially problematic fall into several categories:

Weak attacking moves with a support effect, such as Acid Spray and Clear Smog. I don't think these are particularly problematic, so I think they can be safely allowed in movepool submissions. Foul Play I would prefer to avoid because it is an offensive move that performs a role for weak attackers that Fidgit really does not need (it is fast and has Taunt and Encore).

I strongly agree with HeaL about Aurora Veil, it makes no sense on Fidgit (Fidgit doesn't even learn Hail!), and clearly should be Disallowed.

I love the flavor of Wonder Room and Magic Room on Fidgit, and I strongly agree that Persistent should be updated to include them. Because they are (to the best of our knowledge) only marginally competitively, Wonder Room and Magic Room will be Required in movepool submissions.

Finally, Terrains have come up as an issue, both for and against. We have precedent in the form of Fidgit's Weather moves--it learns three, but not all, of the Weather moves. Thus movepool submissions may include any of the Terrains, but no more than two.

Furthermore, I am Disallowing moves of fourth generation or earlier from being added, unless such moves have subsequently become near-universally available.

Before we get to movepool submissions, what moves would we expect to see Fidgit gain purely from a flavor standpoint?
 
Okay, so I know this move isn't flavor, but I completely forgot about this move when looking at the new moves. Sorry! Will post flavor moves after I hear a verdict on this.

Toxic Thread would be really interesting to see on Fidgit. For those who don't know, it lowers the speed and poisons the foe. It would be a form of speed control that would boost its non field-effect sets. Flavor-wise, it is currently only learned by the Spinarak line. However, both Fidgit and the Spinarak lines are Poison-type spiders, so I thought it would work for flavor too. Also, keep in mind Ariados is still really bad even with Toxic Thread. Also, it is not an entry hazard like Sticky Web, so it wouldn't be as risky.
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

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I was unaware Toxic Thread existed, it sounds neat but it a signature move. It does fall in line with Fidget's niche and would be a nice flavor. Have to see what others think. Keep in mind Fidget learns none of the other web based moves iirc..
 
It learns three of the Weathers, but only because that's what follows the trends set by other Pokémon. All non-Fire types learn Rain Dance, all non-Water/Ice types learn Sunny Day, and most if not all Ground types learn Sandstorm through TMs. Terrains don't have TMs or Tutors, so their distribution is limited to those who can learn them naturally, which means they need flavor. Psychic Terrain in particular is only learned by four Pokémon (five with Aurumoth). The only Terrain I could see Fidgit getting is Grassy Terrain, but even that's a stretch because it's currently only learned by Grass types and the Flabébé line (who are honorary Grass-types).

As for other flavor moves, Rototiller fits it like a set of eight gloves. It's a pure support move that is underutilized (though that's because it's Doubles-only), and with eight arms and a drill, it could perform the task of plowing a field extremely efficiently. I can picture this thing being the tractor of the Pokémon world, especially because its Poison typing can kill off unwanted plants and bugs. Or it can pluck/handslap them the old-fashioned way, because eight hands.

Speaking of drills, Drill Run is also perfect because it literally has a drill on its ass. Its poor Attack and the move being inferior to Earthquake means that it has no competitive concerns.

Other but more useless moves that I think fit are Hold Hands, Entrainment, and Play Nice. I guess I think that Fidgit's just a nice Pokémon overall.
 
I think a few basic flying type moves would be good for it to inherit from Breezy. Breezy is limited to gust and aerial ace, so a few more basic flying moves would be nice for flavor reasons, particularly a few that still make sense on Fidget to a degree.
Bounce is a non-competitive move mainly learned by a few flying types that don't really "fly" as well as quite a few non-flying types.
Acrobatics is a 5th gen move that seems to fit pretty well. Fidget pretty much looks like a circus performer.
Defog is a move that was not included on Fidget, that became much more relevant later on. It seems pretty flavorful, and is directly outclassed by rapid spin.
 

snake_rattler

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I think a few basic flying type moves would be good for it to inherit from Breezy. Breezy is limited to gust and aerial ace, so a few more basic flying moves would be nice for flavor reasons, particularly a few that still make sense on Fidget to a degree.
Bounce is a non-competitive move mainly learned by a few flying types that don't really "fly" as well as quite a few non-flying types.
Acrobatics is a 5th gen move that seems to fit pretty well. Fidget pretty much looks like a circus performer.
Defog is a move that was not included on Fidget, that became much more relevant later on. It seems pretty flavorful, and is directly outclassed by rapid spin.
Defog isn't directly outclassed by Rapid Spin. One of Fidgit's biggest checks is Mega Sableye - the only thing it can really do against it is pivot out with U-turn. Defog lets Fidgit get rid of hazards against it, and you aren't forced to take Rocky Helmet damage or other residual damage from Tomohawk, Garchomp, or Ferrothorn. Yes, you can get Taunted and you get rid of your own hazards, but that's why Defog and Rapid Spin have their pros and cons.
 
It learns three of the Weathers, but only because that's what follows the trends set by other Pokémon. All non-Fire types learn Rain Dance, all non-Water/Ice types learn Sunny Day, and most if not all Ground types learn Sandstorm through TMs. Terrains don't have TMs or Tutors, so their distribution is limited to those who can learn them naturally, which means they need flavor. Psychic Terrain in particular is only learned by four Pokémon (five with Aurumoth). The only Terrain I could see Fidgit getting is Grassy Terrain, but even that's a stretch because it's currently only learned by Grass types and the Flabébé line (who are honorary Grass-types).

As for other flavor moves, Rototiller fits it like a set of eight gloves. It's a pure support move that is underutilized (though that's because it's Doubles-only), and with eight arms and a drill, it could perform the task of plowing a field extremely efficiently. I can picture this thing being the tractor of the Pokémon world, especially because its Poison typing can kill off unwanted plants and bugs. Or it can pluck/handslap them the old-fashioned way, because eight hands.

Speaking of drills, Drill Run is also perfect because it literally has a drill on its ass. Its poor Attack and the move being inferior to Earthquake means that it has no competitive concerns.

Other but more useless moves that I think fit are Hold Hands, Entrainment, and Play Nice. I guess I think that Fidgit's just a nice Pokémon overall.
Hold Hands is probably a bad idea, as it is an Omni-Boosting Z-Move. Kerf got the move, but that was because before it didn't do anything period.
 

Deck Knight

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Defog I think is not just a flavor add-on. Defog's support is strictly different from Rapid Spin's in that it can hit Ghost-types and while it can take away some of your own setup, it isn't going to remove Tailwind or Trick Room so it is definitely a competitive consideration, not a flavor one. I tentatively support it, but there's no denying Defog is not just a flavor move.

A few flavor thoughts:

Acrobatics is a cool move I think the entire evolution line could get. It has no competitive implications considering it will almost never outshine Earthquake, Earth Power, or Sludge Wave as a damaging move.
Rototiller is quintessentially flavorful on Fidgit. Drill Run also fits.
Entrainment and Play Nice are also pretty cool.
Sludge Wave is a move introduced in Gen V that Fidgit should learn, and it doesn't outclass Sludge Bomb to a significant degree. 5 Base Power vs. 20% Poison chance loss is not world-breaking.
I quite like Stomping Tantrum for Fidgit as well, just because it seems like a Pokemon that wouldn't take its support moves failing well.

I would be very wary of Hold Hands because of its Z-Move effect, which raises all stats. Fidgit isn't really built to be a sweeper of any sort, but it has just enough offense and speed where I'd rather avoid Hold Hands.
Fidgit would actually be a competent user of Toxic Thread but the move just seems so forced. Let Ariados keep its own toy. I could see an argument for adding Bug Bite, an HGSS/BW2/ORAS Tutor though.
Speed Swap would be an interesting flavor move, since Fidgit is fast but no longer blistering like it used to be, and this would give it a peculiar niche if it attracted in, say, Pheromosa, but is otherwise not a great way to spend a switch-in turn. Fidgit has enough underlying weird Psychic abilities (since that's what Trick Room, Heal Block, Skill Swap, Screens, and Gravity are) that Speed Swap isn't out of place.
 
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Defog I think is not just a flavor add-on. Defog's support is strictly different from Rapid Spin's in that it can hot Ghost-types and while it can take away some of your own setup, it isn't going to remove Tailwind or Trick Room so it is definitely a competitive consideration, not a flavor one. I tentatively support it, but there's no denying Defog is not just a flavor move.

A few flavor thoughts:

Acrobatics is a cool move I think the entire evolution line could get. It has no competitive implications considering it will almost never outshine Earthquake, Earth Power, or Sludge Wave as a damaging move.
Rototiller is quintessentially flavorful on Fidgit. Drill Run also fits.
Entrainment and Play Nice are also pretty cool.

I would be very wary of Hold Hands because of its Z-Move effect, which raises all stats. Fidgit isn't really built to be a sweeper of any sort, but it has just enough offense and speed where I'd rather avoid Hold Hands.
Fidgit would actually be a competent user of Toxic Thread but the move just seems so forced. Let Ariados keep its own toy. I could see an argument for adding Bug Bite, an HGSS/BW2/ORAS Tutor though.
Speed Swap would be an interesting flavor move, since Fidgit is fast but no longer blistering like it used to be, and this would give it a peculiar niche if it attracted in, say, Pheromosa, but is otherwise not a great way to spend a switch-in turn. Fidgit has enough underlying weird Psychic abilities (since that's what Trick Room, Heal Block, Skill Swap, Screens, and Gravity are) that Speed Swap isn't out of place.
Ariados doesn't use Toxic Thread period, not to mention it is still sitting in PU despite the move. I'd agree with you on it if Ariados used it more. Also, isn't the whole concept of Fidgit is that it uses otherwise underused utility moves? Toxic Thread would be good for it.
 

snake_rattler

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Defog I think is not just a flavor add-on. Defog's support is strictly different from Rapid Spin's in that it can hot Ghost-types and while it can take away some of your own setup, it isn't going to remove Tailwind or Trick Room so it is definitely a competitive consideration, not a flavor one. I tentatively support it, but there's no denying Defog is not just a flavor move.

A few flavor thoughts:

Acrobatics is a cool move I think the entire evolution line could get. It has no competitive implications considering it will almost never outshine Earthquake, Earth Power, or Sludge Wave as a damaging move.
Rototiller is quintessentially flavorful on Fidgit. Drill Run also fits.
Entrainment and Play Nice are also pretty cool.

I would be very wary of Hold Hands because of its Z-Move effect, which raises all stats. Fidgit isn't really built to be a sweeper of any sort, but it has just enough offense and speed where I'd rather avoid Hold Hands.
Fidgit would actually be a competent user of Toxic Thread but the move just seems so forced. Let Ariados keep its own toy. I could see an argument for adding Bug Bite, an HGSS/BW2/ORAS Tutor though.
Speed Swap would be an interesting flavor move, since Fidgit is fast but no longer blistering like it used to be, and this would give it a peculiar niche if it attracted in, say, Pheromosa, but is otherwise not a great way to spend a switch-in turn. Fidgit has enough underlying weird Psychic abilities (since that's what Trick Room, Heal Block, Skill Swap, Screens, and Gravity are) that Speed Swap isn't out of place.
Hey DK, did you miss the Pheromosa ban? :p

Ariados doesn't use Toxic Thread period, not to mention it is still sitting in PU despite the move. I'd agree with you on it if Ariados used it more. Also, isn't the whole concept of Fidgit is that it uses otherwise underused utility moves? Toxic Thread would be good for it.
Despite being a spider, Fidgit doesn't get Spider Web, String Shot, or Sticky Web. I don't see why it should suddenly learn Toxic Thread other than just for placing a Gen 7 move onto Fidgit.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Acrobatics is a cool move I think the entire evolution line could get. It has no competitive implications considering it will almost never outshine Earthquake, Earth Power, or Sludge Wave as a damaging move.
The above suggestion mentioning Fidgit's entire evolution line gain access to Acrobatics seems a bit odd here and to me this reads as a roundabout way of giving Breezi a boost for CAP LC. I believe the way it is brought about as if "if it doesn't hurt Fidgit, give it to both Fidgit and Breezi" has potential motives that extend beyond the scope of Fidgit's own personal updates. These are CAP updates and they should in no way force a change on the prevos with the rare exception of removals.

For those who don't know, Fidgit's prevo, Breezi, is a poison/flying type with Unburden.

I'm not necessarily saying zomg Breezi should never be allowed to have acrobatics, but the proper way of doing this is trying to properly argue that Acrobatics belongs on Fidgit and then having a separate discussion in CAP prevo stuff / updates (IF they ever happen, largely up to DHR's discretion) to see if Breezi should get it too. We shouldn't be just forcing it on Breezi simply because it's a harmless move on Fidgit though :s

EDIT: Sorry if this seems like I'm bringing Breezi too much into the discussion, but the above comment's mentioning of potentially giving acrobatics to both Fidgit and Breezi made me want to get ahead of the issue and argue against giving it to Breezi right away and to argue for having a separate discussion at a later date for Breezi (IF Fidgit gets acro in the first place)... but this separate discussion is beyond the scope here, I personally think.
 
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Deck Knight

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I don't pay enough attention to CAP LC to have that as an ulterior motive, lol. Drink some Berry Juice and call me in the morning. Though yeah, I do like Acrobatics purely on Fidgit too because it's design is so unique.
 
I don't pay enough attention to CAP LC to have that as an ulterior motive, lol. Drink some Berry Juice and call me in the morning. Though yeah, I do like Acrobatics purely on Fidgit too because it's design is so unique.
I can see Fidgit being able to do Acrobatics. Just, keep it away from Breezi. It will make it borked in a blink of an eye.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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If you like acrobatics as a flavor move, please give some flavor reasoning (and don't try to force it on fidgit and breezi in one fell swoop; explain why it belongs on Fidgit first @_@). So far all I've seen for you reasoning is that it doesn't hurt Fidgit but I haven't seen why it is flavorful. What about Fidgit's design being "unique" makes acrobatics flavorful?

Main thing is I'm not a fan of bringing it onto Breezi in this thread as I think that should be a separate thing if a thing at all. I'm definitely not saying it's not flavorful on Fidgit, but a bit of flavor reasoning can go a long way and I personally did like the earlier circus performer comment by chuckeroo : )
 

Deck Knight

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If you like acrobatics as a flavor move, please give some flavor reasoning (and don't try to force it on fidgit and breezi in one fell swoop; explain why it belongs on Fidgit first @_@). So far all I've seen for you reasoning is that it doesn't hurt Fidgit but I haven't seen why it is flavorful. What about Fidgit's design being "unique" makes acrobatics flavorful?
Well, I mean Fidgit's got to be one hell of juggler, why not chain saws in midair?
 
If you like acrobatics as a flavor move, please give some flavor reasoning (and don't try to force it on fidgit and breezi in one fell swoop; explain why it belongs on Fidgit first @_@). So far all I've seen for you reasoning is that it doesn't hurt Fidgit but I haven't seen why it is flavorful. What about Fidgit's design being "unique" makes acrobatics flavorful?
With that many hands, do you really think it wouldn't be able to be the best acrobatic performer this side of Sinnoh?
 

snake_rattler

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Generally, Acrobatics is seen on Flying-types. On those that aren't, they're usually pretty agile Pokemon like Blaziken and Simisage (and the other two), most monkey Pokemon like Primeape and Passiman, a couple of floating Pokemon like Lunatone and Vikavolt. Fidgit imo falls into the agile group, and it certainly has the hands and limbs to be quite the trapeze artist. Competitively, it's pretty worthless given that it's non-STAB and off of 76 Attack.

While I'd like to see Acrobatics on Breezi, I don't think this is the right place to discuss that. However, Acrobatics is flavorful on Fidgit in my opinion.
 
Looking at the STAB moves added since Gen 4, these are some moves that I think fit very well on Fidgit.

Venoshock: Universal for Poison-types barring obvious exceptions like Weedle and Arceus-Poison.
Bulldoze: All Pokemon that learn Earthquake learn Bulldoze except Yungoos.
Drill Run: It literally has a drill. Outclassed by Earthquake.
Rototiller: A flavorful (and useless) Ground-type support move.

There are a few more I'm not as sure about. The most notable one is Sludge Wave. While most things that learn Sludge Wave learn Sludge Bomb, this isn't true the other way around. In fact, most things that learn Sludge Bomb don't learn Sludge Wave. I wouldn't be opposed to adding Sludge Wave, but it's not like there's some precedent we have to follow.

And yeah, it should gain Confide because it's universal.
 

G-Luke

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In the argument of Acrobatics, even if Breezi didn't exist, it would be a strong flavour addition due to its design. Acrobatics usually is found on agile Pokémon with relatively high speed or Flyers (not just Flying type). Fidget is an agile Pokemon by both artistic and statistical design. The fact that its pre evolution is part Flying is just icing in the flavouring cake. Other moves I support include

Toxic Thread - While it currently is the signature move of Ariados, thats because its the only spider Pokemon that especially deals with poison. It also fits from a concept standpoint.
Venoshock
Rototiller
Drill Run
Bulldoze
Stomping Tantrum
Entrainment

Moves I feel need more discussion

Grassy Terrain
Sludge Wave
Bounce
Hold HandsHands
Acid Spray
(And I guess Acid as well)


 
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