CAP 18 CAP18 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[mewtwo15026]

Sorry, but saying that we can't switch in on super effective attacks coming off of high base stats isn't much of a counter argument. We're gonna astronomical stats to deal with that, no matter what ability we choose. Your second paragraph is exactly what we were planning on doing in the first place (regarding Aegislash, Gengar is something we'll have to handle with another team member - no one ever suggested Bullet Proof + Milotic's special bulk.)

I'm pretty sure I suggested Milotic's special bulk on its own because Gengar Thunderbolt hits CAP18 harder than Aegislash Shadow Ball does, and Intimidate means CAP18's Defense doesn't need to be astronomical at all to take Excadrill's Earthquakes. Sure, the two together might be excessive, but Cresselia's got even better defenses, and it's not broken at all in OU.

I never saw anything about plans for an offensive Bulletproof CAP because either I'm either bad at reading forum posts or I'm never on IRC. I've been focusing on the defensive potential of CAP18, and since it would need to handle Excadrill, Gengar, and Aegislash, I figured we'd need Intimidate + stats to accomplish all this. I just ran calcs for an offensive CAP18 vs. Gengar, Exca, and Aegislash, and it's actually a heck of a lot easier to threaten things when you're built to survive one Excaquake and one Gengar Bolt rather than two.

 

[ghana.7]

Dear all the people who dislike Regenerator because it removes reliance on Defog Latias,

Regenerator isn't just a hazard ability. It's an ability that lets us fully heal off priority attacks with a switch, even without great defenses. For example, just 91/85 physical defense lets us Regenerator off an Aegislash Shadow Sneak. This can't happen without Latias' Defog support.

Also, a core needs to be able to switch around, and every game won't always go exactly our way. Latias won't always be able to Defog on its first try. Regenerator lets us make switches between CAP18 and Latias with Stealth Rock up so Latias can perform its role in the core, even if it's not the first time.

two paragraphs this time im improving

 

[FezzikTheMighty]

Serene Grace has way too universal of a benefit to be considered specifically useful for the concept. You may double secondary effects of certain moves, but besides "man, that's a really cool idea", is there an actual reason why that would specifically benefit the core? What does Serene Grace do to make a core of Latias + Lucario + CAP 18 work as opposed to just making CAP 18 a good Pokemon? I'm not quite sure there is a reason, to be honest. Good ability, questionable conceptual value.

Any value i see this adding to the core is burns and hurting up the enemy before a more suitable teammate would switch in if need be. It is also a better option over WoW as it isn't shut down by taunt. That's all i see it doing, but there may be more I'm not seeing.

 

[Vryheid]

Bulletproof is typical of the CAP's kneejerk reactions to overly specific threats which gave us blatantly underwhelming or overpowered abilities like Weak Armor on Aurumoth and Volt Absorb on Cawmodore. If hard walling Shadow Ball is quite literally the only way you see to make this Pokemon useful then you should be asking yourself what this Pokemon is supposed to be doing against a team that doesn't have Aegislash in the first place- because frankly, if this Pokemon works as well as people want it to be you're not going to be seeing Aegislash all that much.

As I said before- want to punish this thing offensively? Give it Contrary and Pursuit, and it will smash through Aegislash all day long even when it tries to switch out. It could also abuse moves like Superpower or even Overheat to continually accumulate boosts. Want to deal with it defensively? Try giving it Prankster, a recovery move, and a bunch of killer support moves to work with- Aegislash's power isn't going to do shit when it's burned and Light Screen is on the field. Tomohawk already proved how absurdly powerful defensive Prankster sets can be in the gen 6 meta and I don't see how this guy would be any worse off with some good stats and a proper movepool.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Serene Grace is 1) a useful ability, 2) not broken/OP on its own, and 3) an ability that does have direct implications to helping our core and to helping counter Aegislash.

We're, for the most part, assuming that serene grace would work for CAP18 alongside scald/maybe lava plume, and for good reason; giving the typing, most water types have scald and a fair amount of fire types have lava plume. 80 BP moves with a 60% burn chance is nothing to scoff at. Fear of this being overpowered is ridiculous, however. Entei has a 100 BP 50% burn chance move, which is very much akin to these numbers. Entei is far from being a top-tier, meta-breaking threat. I don't think giving CAP18 a similar move-based presence will break it, either.

Both Lucario and Latias would appreciate having foes burned. Lucario likes the passive damage that burn offers, as it is akin to having stealth rock up after only one turn of burn residual damage for the particular inflictee. Latias appreciates making threats have lower attack to remedy the lower of her defensive stats.

Aegislash himself doesn't like burns, let alone fire STAB. However, 1 on 1, Aegislash is already likely to flee against our CAP18 and switch out. Serene Grace Burn Chances dissuade an opposing Aegislash from switching out to a potential counter in fear of the counter getting burned. This is almost akin to a pursuit factor of risk, though probably not as extreme. It does however intensify the risk/reward situation that an Aegislash user has when facing a serene grace burner.

Serene grace burns have an extremely major advantage over will-o-wisp in the respect that they allow offensive pressure alongside the defensive benefits that burns offer. In the earlier typing stage, we decided having a CAP18 that could offensively pressure foes was what we wanted to do. Serene grace allows the opportunity to keep this offensive pressure while also offering much needed defensive benefits to itself and its core members.

Regenerator allows CAP18 to switch in and out more, but has little impact on how much Aegislash will switch out against CAP18. Unaware allows switching in against physical sets easier, but offers no incentive for Aegislash to stay in and in all likelihood will let Aegislash switch out to a counter for a low-cost switch.

Having a method to burn and cripple Aegislash means we do not need the massive amount of bulk it would take to absorb shadow claws, or a single shadow claw assuming we can switch in while he sword dances. The biggest thing to fear would be a shadow claw on the switch and a shadow sneak before making a move. Likewise, bulletproof (mentioning for comparison sake--the post here is clearly focused on serene grace, not bulletproof) CAP18 fears the same thing. Serene grace also arguably allows for CAP18 to force to take a shadow ball, then a shadow sneak, but really this damage output would likely be similar to a pure physical shadow claw + shadow sneak combo anyway. If bulletproof allows CAP18 to invest more in physical bulk to take physical hits, I think serene grace would to a certain extent allow more special bulk to be allotted for taking shadow balls. The difference is serene grace means CAP18 would have to only take a single shadow ball of damage to reliably switch in (and possibly an uninvested shadow sneak before being able to move). Most mixed Aegi's do not run significant attack EVs, therefore CAP 18 would likely be able to take less damage from a mixed shadow ball + shadow sneak combo that from a shadow claw + shadow sneak combo. Furthermore, standard special Aegi doesn't even run shadow sneak and it would definitely be safer to take a single shadow ball than a shadow claw + shadow sneak combo. A serene grace CAP18 that is specially bulky will likely have to take only one special hit to switch in, whereas a bulletproof CAP18 that is physically defensive will have to take a shadow claw and a shadow sneak. Bulletproof would likely drastically change Aegi's to physical, but serene grace would likely not have as large of an effect. With bulletproof, we're asking for shadow claw + shadow sneak. With serene grace, it is likely shadow ball sets will still be run, and once a shadow ball set is identified, the switch in choice becomes easier (in theory). I fully admit that relying on keeping Aegislash to still run shadowball has some other flaws, and that it doesn't prevent shadow claw + shadow sneak variants from showing up either. But Serene Grace seems to have the potential to run special bulk to take a shadow ball and more actively spread burns to cripple physical Aegi's. Yes, w-o-w with another ability might accomplish this as well, but arguably with less utility because of the loss of offensive pressure that could also help out the team.

 

[EternalSnowman]

I believe that Serene Grace or Bulletproof is our best option. I will not talk about Bulletproof as requested by PttP. Serene Grace allows us to bypass taunt to burn, and hit hard. Scald (Which I am almost certain this CAP will get) will be hard to switch into for fear of burn or hitting it super effectively (most fire types). The only pokemon that can reliably switch into these are Water Veil Pokemon, but there are like 2 usable ones in the entire game... If you call Huntail usable. Other abilities that have been brought up:

Intimidate: This literally covers one threat, that can be revenge killed. Excadrill. Excadrill will hurt with Earthquakes even with Intimidate, so be wary, but Lucario can and will revenge kill non-scarfed versions and ScarfExcadrill is dealt with by Latias. Other "threats" that Intimidate covers are mainly Ground types that can kill Lucario and CAP18 with their respective Ground STABs. Latias carrying Ice Beam deals with all of them bar Excadrill. OHKOing Garchomp, Landorus-I/T, Salamence and other OU threats that will threaten CAP18. Latias also outspeeds all of them, which is just a bonus, while switching into the predicted Earthquake. Levitate does even less.

Regenerator: This is a great ability, and would probably be my third place choice after the aforementioned abilities. It allows it to be a great pivot continually switching in to take hits for the other members of the core. I just feel that there are enough viable Regenator users out there, that I do not really like feel the need to add another pokemon to this pool of already great pokemon (Amoongus, Slowbro, Mienshao, Slowking, Tornadus-T).

Competitive and Contrary: I personally don't like Competitive as it would force CAP18 into a mix-set. Or Knock-off/FoulPlay + Special Attacking set. Contrary on the other hand, has great perks to it and I would love to see it come into action. The thing about Contrary is that it could end up making CAP18 an Overheat spammer or a physical attacker, which is not exactly what we want from it. The typing itself has great special attacking STABs, while the physical movepool for both STABs is limited at best being FlareBlitz/FirePunch + Waterfall. I feel like it would limit CAP18 too greatly, so I would stick to other abilities like Serene Grace, Regenerator and Bulletproof.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

I believe that Serene Grace or Bulletproof is our best option. I will not talk about Bulletproof as requested by PttP. Serene Grace allows us to bypass taunt to burn, and hit hard. Scald (Which I am almost certain this CAP will get) will be hard to switch into for fear of burn or hitting it super effectively (most fire types). The only pokemon that can reliably switch into these are Water Veil Pokemon, but there are like 2 usable ones in the entire game... If you call Huntail usable. Other abilities that have been brought up:

Let's not get hyperbolic here. Fire types avoid burn, and with a secondary type like Dragon they don't get hit super effectively. Water Absorb and Storm Drain and Dry Skin render the user immune from Scald, period. The blobs don't mind, nor do most if not all Natural Heal users. Guts abusers, well, abuse it.

 

[Galladium]

Let's not get hyperbolic here. Fire types avoid burn, and with a secondary type like Dragon they don't get hit super effectively. Water Absorb and Storm Drain and Dry Skin render the user immune from Scald, period. The blobs don't mind, nor do most if not all Natural Heal users. Guts abusers, well, abuse it.

That is a valid argument, except that none of those Pokemon (apart from fire types who take SE damage from Scald) are on the Threat List.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

I've already said my piece in support of Regenerator, so I'm going to talk about the other abilities instead.

Serene Grace/No Guard: There seems to be a lot of overlap in discussion between these two abilities. It's fairly simple to see why this is the case: both abilities are mainly being brought up because they would allow CAP 18 to more reliably spread Burn status against potential threats. Lava Plume and Scald would be the primary beneficiaries of Serene Grace, while Inferno has been brought up as an excellent option for No Guard. The main difference between the two abilities is that No Guard would allow CAP 18 to use more powerful attacks without missing (e.g. Inferno, Hydro Pump), while Serene Grace is better should CAP 18 want to spread burns using Scald. Considering that CAP 18's primary purpose is to provide offensive pressure against threats, I think No Guard slightly edges out Serene Grace. Both are good choices for CAP 18, though.

Intimidate: While Intimidate is never a bad ability to have, I'm not too keen on it for CAP 18 when there are better options available. It does nothing at all to handle special threats (e.g. Aegislash's Shadow Ball, Gengar, Mega Charizard Y), and Latias can already handle the Ground-types other than Excadrill. Furthermore, Excadrill is both susceptible to being revenge killed and crippled by burn, so Serene Grace or No Guard would be better choices to deal with it and the other Ground-type threats.

Contrary/Competitive: My main reservation about this ability is that abusing STAB Overheat might make CAP 18 a tad too powerful. Unlike other Contrary users (e.g. Malamar), CAP 18 has access to great STAB in Fire/Water. Another problem I have is one EternalSnowman already mentioned; the pool of Fire and Water physical attacks is inferior to the special attack pool, so forcing CAP 18 to go mixed just to capitalize on King's Shield seems to be a less than optimal solution.

 

[MudcrabDL]

Having read the discussion it's pretty obvious Bulletproof will be slated, so lets look at something with greater utility than that.

Contrary is a particularly interesting ability. It has a direct effect on Aegislash as our absolutely worrying threat, making King's Shield entirely superfluous if the CAP has a physical set. it also has fantastic utility against Lando-T, and Defog users. Now, Overheat spam is worrying, but not uncounterable. Bulky dragons can handle a +2 overheat, and hit back hard, or force a switch. As long as we don't go overboard with the base special attack, we will have a powerful, but not too powerful pokemon with the capacity to run mixed sets with boosting entirely based off offensive power. I personally feel this makes for an interesting pokemon, and one that works very well alongside Lucario and Latias, as the looming threat of an Overheat spam will force a lot of switches to handle it. In the playtest, Latias will be able to handle opposing CAPs, due to her great bulk and dual resistances. It also changes the question from "can it take hits from Aegislash" to "does Aegislash seriously want to fuck with this guy and let it boost up?"

Competitive seems similar in concept, but allows for the creation of an effective specially based attacker. While there aren't many specially based contact moves to take advantage of King's Shield, there are some that see limited competitive use such as Draining Kiss, which at +2 will become an effective method of recovery for this CAP. There are also physical moves with secondary effects such as Flame Charge, which against a King's Shield rather generate a win win situation for the CAP.

Prankster, however you feel about users of it, is absolutely solid. A pre emptive will o wisp can force any physical attacker bar Talonflame to think twice about staying in, and makes handling Azumarill a lot more manageable for our core, as intended in our threatlist. I can think of no reason why this wouldn't be a good idea.

People keep acting like Regenerator only works if Rocks are up. With clear fields, Regenerator changes from you breaking even healthwise, to being able to switch into, say, a shadow ball, hit hard, and switch out, healing off, lets say around half the damage it did in the first place. With access to volt switch, u-turn or parting shot, this ability makes for an incredible pivot. Simply being more of a survivor helps with our specific core, as you don't need to be as careful with it, preserving Latias and Lucario for when they're the most helpful.

 

[ginganinja]

By giving CAP 18 something like Regenerator, CAP 18 has the capacity to function extremely well outside of the core on its own. There would be little use for Defog support, and quite honestly, new teammates might be optimal knowing that it overcame something it should have been weak to. I'd go so far as to say that this ability, at this stage, directly goes against the concept.

Id like to point out, that this CAP already has the capacity to function extremely well outside of this core. Defog Lati@s is nowhere near uncommon, and merely giving this CAP the ability to shit all over Aegislash will make it a boon to pretty much any team. Basically, the ship sailed a long time ago in limiting this CAP to this particular core, therefore I do not accept any argument against X because it might function outside of the core.

Regenerator is actually a decent ability because you can pivot switch into Aegislash, and instantly threaten a KO with whatever fire STAB we go for. Everyone knows I prefer this cap taking an offensive role, so switching into Aegislash, eating a hit, forcing it out and (hopefully), nuking something on the switch, and then switching out, healing off that damage dealt when you switch would be pretty useful. Its not even like Regen doesn't mean this CAP doesn't like Defog support, SR + an Aegislash Shadow Ball would do enough to break past Regen, thus Defog Support would decrease the amount of residual damage this cap might otherwise take. All Regen does is decrease the dependability of Defog being forced before this CAP switches in least it lose a large chunk of health.

 

[Scoopapa]

Serene Grace - Scald is already an annoyingly powerful move, and while this may seem fun to play with, it will be infuriating to play against. Throw Lava Plume into the mix, and you have some serious problems. First, we accomplish nothing strategically by doubling a percent chance that was already there. Dubious switch-ins become more dubious, and hax becomes more frequent, sure, but we aren't really changing the strategic landscape in terms of what optimally does or doesn't want to take us on. It's almost the definition of a "become better in general" ability. Second, nothing else can spread status while dealing damage in the same turn nearly as reliably as what a Serene Grace Scald user with decent SpA could do. Lava Plume is just insult to injury at this point but potentially having your choice of STAB coverage and a 60% chance to burn with either move? We would be carving a significant niche that would be great regardless of whether Latias and Lucario are present.

Competitive - So I've heard some creative ways we might try to activate this but honestly I doubt it would come in handy that often. About the only plausible way you are going to get this against Aegislash is if we have an actually threatening non-STAB Pursuit. Defog would be a reliable way to activate this, but it creates anti-synergy with Defog Latias because you now have a down side to clearing hazards yourself (as opposed to waiting for an opponent's Defog to get setup as well). So overall the link to the concept is dubious.

I actually think a more subtle choice like Rattled deserves a fair shake. This may not accomplish "switch into Aegislash repeatedly over the course of the match" but that isn't necessarily mandatory. In a world where this pokemon has good offensive presence and decent ability to switch in (and we seem to be assuming we need both) then I see no reason why a +1 speed boost could not be made to be scary. Fast U-turn does bone Latias, (and Lucario doesn't want to switch in on U-turn, I can elaborate if this is controversial) and Shadow Sneak would be a great setup opportunity as well; even if it's not Aegislash's most common or devastating move it's still definitely something it uses. Gaining the boost from Shadow Ball is costly sure...but as long as we can take at least one Shadow Ball it's still something that is exploitable. If we can create pressure not to use those moves for fear of the consequences then we've already accomplished something very real without even switching in.

Another thing I like about this is that while a Rattled CAP who just ate a Shadow Ball is very vulnerable to priority, Lucario can deal with priority users well thanks to Extremespeed. Conversely, while Lucario struggles against things that just outspeed it but are bulky enough to take Extremespeed, a +1 Spe CAP could easily be made to outspeed these pokemon and hit them much harder with strong STAB moves. So we could fill a situational sweeping role that complements Lucario's ability to deal with priority users while discouraging moves that threaten our core. We wouldn't want viability to purely hinge on getting that +1 speed, but it's a balance that I think would be pretty easy to find. Therefore, I think Rattled is a viable option.

 

[mewtwo15026]

Since CAP18 will be good even without Latias and Lucario because screw Aegislash, what about it will make people want to use it in the core more than they want to use it independently?

 

[hellothisismuffin]

Dear all the people who dislike Regenerator because it removes reliance on Defog Latias,

Regenerator isn't just a hazard ability. It's an ability that lets us fully heal off priority attacks with a switch, even without great defenses. For example, just 91/85 physical defense lets us Regenerator off an Aegislash Shadow Sneak. This can't happen without Latias' Defog support.

Also, a core needs to be able to switch around, and every game won't always go exactly our way. Latias won't always be able to Defog on its first try. Regenerator lets us make switches between CAP18 and Latias with Stealth Rock up so Latias can perform its role in the core, even if it's not the first time.

two paragraphs this time im improving

Okay, we get you like Regenerator, you can stop spamming it all over the forum. It's pretty annoying.

I personally don't have a problem with Regenerator especially because it heals more the just SR or Spikes damage

I like Rattled more. The idea of switching into a Bug-, Ghost-, or Dark-type attack and getting that boost is very appealing, plus it gives us a switch for Latias.

Serene Grace is also good

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Serene Grace - Scald is already an annoyingly powerful move, and while this may seem fun to play with, it will be infuriating to play against. Throw Lava Plume into the mix, and you have some serious problems. First, we accomplish nothing strategically by doubling a percent chance that was already there. Dubious switch-ins become more dubious, and hax becomes more frequent, sure, but we aren't really changing the strategic landscape in terms of what optimally does or doesn't want to take us on. It's almost the definition of a "become better in general" ability. Second, nothing else can spread status while dealing damage in the same turn nearly as reliably as what a Serene Grace Scald user with decent SpA could do. Lava Plume is just insult to injury at this point but potentially having your choice of STAB coverage and a 60% chance to burn with either move? We would be carving a significant niche that would be great regardless of whether Latias and Lucario are present.

Just because the merit of Serence Grace scald would be to boost 30% burn chances up to 60% does NOT mean that there is no strategic benefits to this. I think there very much are strategic benefits, and looking at it merely as a double of burn chance fails to try to observe what this actually affects in battle. I personally reject the notion that serene grace is a "become a better in general" ability and you have put it. The strategy lies in you are now more likely to burn than not with scald, which would/should make the opponent less apt to switch team members in and out. Also, regarding the claim that "nothing else can spread status damage in the same turn nearly as reliably as what a Serene Grace Scald user with decent SpA could do" I don't think this is necessarily true either; for one, we're limited to just burn and we're not just a status plowing machine. Secondly, I have serious doubts that CAP18 will have good enough offenses to out-damage a sacred fire Entei. As far as serene grace just allowing for overpowered, dubious hax, I think it probably would be less haxxy and more reliable/strategic to rely on a scald 60% chance than a 30%. You're relying on chance still, but less so than before...

There are also some merits over using scald/offensive burns over w-o-w. Obviously, there's the offensive presence, but this should also be framed in the context of what it can do for our team. Say CAP18 wisps a certain threat... one with more than 90 base speed. If that Pokemon was physical based, Lucario could switch in to take CAP18's place, but wouldn't be able to KO with extreme speed without the opposing Pokemon having been weakened first (most likely). However, if the threat had received damage from scald and was burned, not only does it make it safer for Lucario to switch in, but it also makes it more likely for Luke to finish it off with extreme speed. We've identified extreme speed as one of Lucario's main benefits, and I think burns that also bring offensive pressure/damage would help Lucario's success in using extreme speed to pick off weakened foes, giving it possible switch in opportunities or even just racking up damage for Lucario to do his end-game sweep later.

 

[EternalSnowman]

Since CAP18 will be good even without Latias and Lucario because screw Aegislash, what about it will make people want to use it in the core more than they want to use it independently?

Even if this is the case, remember that this CAP is made to fit this core. Therefore, although CAP18 is going to be used outside of this core, this core will be used due to the synergy of how we made it. For example, a common FWG core in BW2 was Heatran-Jellicent-Ferrothorn. It was really good, but Ferrothorn, Jellicent and Heatran all saw uses outside of that core. This will be similar to our CAP18, since Latias is arguably the best Special Defensive Defogger in OU, it will see usage, and Lucario still has its merits as a sweeper, all three members of our core should see usage outside of the core, but also see usage as a core. I dunno if this made any sense whatsoever.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

One thing everyone should keep in mind with Competitive is that our contact Special Moves need to function well against Aegislash when it's not using King's Shield. Draining Kiss, for instance, activates the boost under King's Shield, but why would you use a 50 BP non-STAB resisted move against Aegislash instead of a STAB Fire-type move? On the hopes of getting a boost? Can we not think of a more reliable way of getting boosts?

The only way Competetive works is with a mixed set, or if this mon gets Foul Play.

Rattled is cool on paper, I guess, but what threats would it help against? Aegislash certainly isn't gonna be faster than us without it, and that's the main focus of this thread as per PttP. I guess it helps abuse U-Turn, but we already resist that.

Contrary is something I still love, but I'm also worried sick about Contrary Overheat getting support. Only way I can see that working is if this is a primarily physical mon (which makes sense for abusing King's Shield), that can only run mixed because of Overheat's boosts. And even then I'm hesitant.

One thing I like about Contrary regardless is that, as it can't use boosting moves of its own, it becomes a strong candidate for Choice or Assault Vest, which are always fun to see used well.

No Guard is something I've been thinking about for a while now, not even for Inferno (which would be pretty great) but just for your standard Will o Wisp, Fire Blast, and Hydro Pump. Being able to use powerful moves without getting haxed, as well as having utterly reliable burn, would be great if we make this a defensive mon, as such powerful attacks would mitigate somewhat lower offensive stats. No Guard Inferno would be nice icing, but again, I worry about this mon getting too powerful.

 

[Impy]

Wow, jeez... How am I poll jumping when everyone else has talked about what moves would benefit from certain abilities? Nevermind... I want to put in my support for No Guard and Competitive. No Guard can give us a wider degree of offensive options to punish Aegislash with things like Fire Blast or Inferno, as well as make use of Hydro Pump and possibly Focus Miss. Competitive punishes Aegislash in the CAP meta that will inevitably try to start running King's Shield and could possibly allow CAP to sweep afterwards. Competitive is a pretty niche ability, but so is Bulletproof and everyone is backing that.

Rattled is a neat idea, but if we have Bulletproof no Aegislash is ever going to try and use Shadow Ball on us. It's even MORE niche to the point of being nearly useless outside of the odd Shadow Sneak.

 

[Imanalt]

Serene Grace is interesting, because what it allows us to do is make it VERY difficult to switch into us, basically using any pokemon that we force out (aegislash) and providing massive threat to the opposing team with burns coming from two different type moves, thus making special attacking water types the only "good" switchins. My concern with serene grace though is that at best this ties aegislash, and without a lot of special attack we actually struggle to OHKO it, and so aegislash has the potential to stay in, risk the burn, and do massive damage with shadow ball, especially given a 60% chance is only slightly in our favor. Overall fairly neutral on this, although its probably my favorite idea other than bulletproof.

Regenerator i still say is too much of a generally good thing, and doesn't help enough with what we need to accomplish. Yes, it makes us a better pivot when provided with defog support... Does it even make us the best pivot for this core though? thats hard to say, given we dont do a better job than things like lando-t at beating threats to the core. We need to be able to be more effective against the things lucario and latias struggle with than other pivots, and i just dont see regenerator helping at this.

Intimidate like regenerator, this makes us a better pivot, and helps against a couple threats, but i dont know it makes us significantly better than other pivots, and doesn't target the most important threats like aegislash, instead beating pokemon like azumarill that were tough to switch in on, but were already hit hard by both of our pokemon.

The more i think about Competitive, the less i like it. If we have competitive, short of having skyhigh stats in both attacks, aegislash won't kings shield against us. And competitive doesnt help us at all against intimidators as (nonmega) mawile, lando-t wont switch in on us, only helping against Gyarados.

 

[Rotosect]

Have you people considered that this CAP shouldn't be too strong against Lucario and Latias, the two pokemon we're trying to give a boost in usage?

I don't know about you, but if I had a fire/water type with Serene Grace and Lucario and Latias were common, I would use it against them (Latias resists fire and water but she doesn't like residual damage from burn), not with them.
Unless for some weird reason this thing isn't getting Scald and/or Lava Plume, at this rate this CAP is going to hurt Lucario and Latias' usage once the playtest rolls around.

 

[Delta Nite]

Since PttP posted, I think discussion evolved somewhat. So far, I've seen people support Multiscale and I found their points compelling, so, what are the negatives of having Multiscale as our Primary Ability?

 

[M-WHALE]

I throw my support behind:

Multiscale: I like multiscale for three major reasons. first off, we can go for a more offensive build to threaten Aegis, Gengar, Exca, etc. and not have to worry about having extreme bulk. secondly, we are stealth rock weak, meaning our mon would not be broken as rocks both break multiscale and badly damage us. this means that we'd need anti-rocks support. This brings up the third point, and that is that it gives A. players a big incentive to run this guy with Latias, and B. An even bigger incentive to run defog on Latias.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Have you people considered that this CAP shouldn't be too strong against Lucario and Latias, the two pokemon we're trying to give a boost in usage?

I don't know about you, but if I had a fire/water type with Serene Grace and Lucario and Latias were common, I would use it against them (Latias resists fire and water but she doesn't like residual damage from burn), not with them.
Unless for some weird reason this thing isn't getting Scald and/or Lava Plume, at this rate this CAP is going to hurt Lucario and Latias' usage once the playtest rolls

All in all, Latias doesn't mind the burn too terribly much. She resists CAP18's stabs, and she'd much rather be burned than inflicted with toxic or even paralysis (or sleep). All in all, it's the least of the status problems Latias has to deal with. With recover and special bulk, the burn is only a slight hindrance and prevents much greater hindrances later.

As far as the logic that having a CAP that can hurt members of our core as being a bad idea, I think that isn't really what the process here is all about. If that were the case, giving it the fire type was already a major thorn in Lucario's side. Moreover, I think the point in boosting the usage of Lucario and Latias is more affected by the solidity of the core itself. We're making a core first and foremost. How the usage percentages of Lucario and Latias are affected outside of the core isn't really the research we are trying to gain data on, if I'm picking up the general feel of the CAP correctly (which I may or may not be, I'll admit). Simply by having the core used, usage with Lucario and Latias is expected to raise. If the core itself doesn't do its job, then I think we'll have a more negative impact upon the project than the chance of Serene Grace burns crippling Lucario and Latias. Of course, as I mentioned, I highly doubt that Latias will be crippled with a burn, and Lucario already wasn't going to be switching into CAP18 to start with due to the chosen typing.

Since PttP posted, I think discussion evolved somewhat. So far, I've seen people support Multiscale and I found their points compelling, so, what are the negatives of having Multiscale as our Primary Ability?

The main negative of Multiscale is that it is primarily a one-time-use ability. It might let us to take one hit from Aegislash, but it does nothing to dissuade Aegi from switching out, and from that point on, Multiscale is broken and pretty much useless. For our purposes of a core that will likely require multiple switches, having an ability that is rendered useless after a single hit might not fit very well in a match. There's the off chance of a wish from Latias making it back to CAP18, but in the fear of our biggest threat that we are trying to counter, Aegislash, Latias being able to pass a wish becomes dubious at best. Sure, it would help against a few other threats, but we don't want Latias to die to Aegislash trying to pass a wish to CAP18 just to make Multiscale intact again (not to mention that the wish won't activate until the end of the turn in which CAP18 hypothetically switches in again). Multiscale would be a great ability if we were making a set-up Pokemon, but I don't think that's the route we are trying to take. If we want/need to take more than one hit, Multiscale doesn't help out as much as other abilities that work under a greater variety of situations.

 

[Yoshuriken]

The main argument I've been seeing for Serene Grace is:

MORE BURNS!

The thing is, No Guard can do this too, via Inferno. Now I know it's not guaranteed that Inferno will get onto CAP18, but I think (correct me if I'm wrong; this is the first CAP I've been involved with) that should No Guard be slated and then chosen, Inferno will be considered as it was one of the purposes of No Guard and it works beautifully with both the typing and the ability. This means that No Guard would be able to do exactly what Serene Grace is supposed to do, but better (100% chance vs 60% chance). Serene Grace also, imo, is slightly more likely to be abused. Moreover, No Guard will allow the CAP to use stronger moves, namely Hydro Pump and Fire Blast, without fail, which makes him able to be more offensive, as we want the core to be. Alternately, CAP18 could achieve equal offensive capabilties as otherwise with lesser offensive stats, allowing more to be put into bulk. No Guard could also be used with Will O Wisp, although that would be unnecessary should he get Inferno. No Guard is, in my opinion, not only a much better choice than Serene Grace for our CAP, but also the best offensive ability thus far mentioned.

As defensive abilities go, I think that Regenerator is the best choice,* though I think any defensive ability on this CAP should be secondary to an offensive one. I know some people have been saying Regenerator would be overpowered, but with SR up, the most you could gain would be 8% without leftovers or getting attacked. That is simply not overpowered.
Now without SR up, Regenerator becomes much more useful. And how convenient, the best Defogger in the game is in our core. CAP'll support the core by clearing the way for a Luke sweep, and Latias will support CAP by clearing the hazards that plague it. Regenerator is certainly a solid defensive ability for this core.

Note: I rescind my support of Levitate after reading arguments against it and for Regenerator.


Tl;dr: No Guard is a much better choice than Serene Grace and the best option imo. Regenerator would be the best secondary ability.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

The thing is, No Guard can do this too, via Inferno. Now I know it's not guaranteed that Inferno will get onto CAP18, but I think (correct me if I'm wrong; this is the first CAP I've been involved with) that should No Guard be slated and then chosen, Inferno will be considered as it was one of the purposes of No Guard and it works beautifully with both the typing and the ability. This means that No Guard would be able to do exactly what Serene Grace is supposed to do, but better (100% chance vs 60% chance). Serene Grace also, imo, is slightly more likely to be abused. Moreover, No Guard will allow the CAP to use stronger moves, namely Hydro Pump and Fire Blast, without fail, which makes him able to be more offensive, as we want the core to be. Alternately, CAP18 could achieve equal offensive capabilties as otherwise with lesser offensive stats, allowing more to be put into bulk. No Guard could also be used with Will O Wisp, although that would be unnecessary should he get Inferno. No Guard is, in my opinion, not only a much better choice than Serene Grace for our CAP, but also the best offensive ability thus far mentioned.

Yes, No Guard Inferno does the burn thing better than Serene Grace burns. The issue, however, is that even with Serene Grace there has been whining that 60% burn off of 80BP is too overpowered. No Guard Inferno takes this to a completely different level. If some people think Serene Grace is too OP, then I have no idea why No Guard would be less OP. You mention that Serene Grace is slightly more likely to be abused? How exactly does a lower burn chance and a lower BP allow for a higher chance to be abused?

Serene Grace provides a better balance between offensive burns and fairness than No Guard and Inferno does. Serene Grace burns has something comparable in the current meta game, as Entei's Sacred Fire has proven to not be completely broken. No Guard takes it to a completely different level, and I fear No Guard being abused much more than Serene Grace.

Overall, I'm not super against Regenerator myself though, as the added bulk gained when switching will likely be useful as well.