Admittedly I only half-read the rest of your post since you insist on continually using your own damage calculation/attack tier system that no one else uses to calculate anything. Obviously with the whole stealth rock->rapid spin and the inevitable counterarguments you get down to the point where you have to actually play Pokemon instead of theorycrafting about it, but unlike trying set up three layers of spikes getting one Stealth Rock off and getting Garchomp out before a Rapid Spin doesn't tend to be asking too much, IMO. Assuming the team is built around Chainchomp Stealth Rock is important enough to the strategy that you would probably be carrying the next move in the forum theorycraft game, 'Ghost switch in.'
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Chain Chomp
- Thread starter Surgo
- Start date
Admittedly I only half-read the rest of your post since you insist on continually using your own damage calculation/attack tier system that no one else uses to calculate anything. Obviously with the whole stealth rock->rapid spin and the inevitable counterarguments you get down to the point where you have to actually play Pokemon instead of theorycrafting about it, but unlike trying set up three layers of spikes getting one Stealth Rock off and getting Garchomp out before a Rapid Spin doesn't tend to be asking too much, IMO. Assuming the team is built around Chainchomp Stealth Rock is important enough to the strategy that you would probably be carrying the next move in the forum theorycraft game, 'Ghost switch in.'
Rhyperior has Sp. Def tier 114.36. Garchomp's Guarenteed kill is 113.68. 115.38 is the chance of kill. So Draco Meteor vs Rhyperior has a chance of OHKO... Note that inside a Sandstream, Rhyperior's Sp. Def grows to 118.61 however turning a chance for OHKO into some 66%ish damage.
I wouldn't bet on it. Draco meteor at its best can do 47% while crunch at its best can do 41%. Those are approximate max damage values on cressy. Even stealth rock won't do the job since cressy will recover from lefties
EDIT: and I used ivs based on my cresselia, which is 12 ivs off from perfect out of hp, def, and sp def values
I put draco meteor in the calc part of my post to show that either way, cresselia will win over chomp, especially if chomp is losing hp due to life orb.
If you don't draco meteor, outrage does 45% and you're locked in that move. There is no way to get around cressy unless you ch
EDIT: I'm not intending to imply that this variant is bad (it is a really good option), but I just came here to point out the cressy thing and leave.
If you don't draco meteor, outrage does 45% and you're locked in that move. There is no way to get around cressy unless you ch
EDIT: I'm not intending to imply that this variant is bad (it is a really good option), but I just came here to point out the cressy thing and leave.
That's awesome. I'll start breeding, as I have a Gible with great SATK and a good Lonely Ditto.
About Cresselia, it'll Ice Beam / Calm Mind on you. I think Weavile would be a great partner to switch in Cresselia and Pursuit it (Cresselia always runs when they see Weaviles).
But why not a + SATK nature? I mean, you'll be able to Swords Dance and power up Earthquake anyway. That would guarantee a OHKO against the counters mentioned in the first post. Obviously, you could swap the excess of SATK to ATK evs.
About Cresselia, it'll Ice Beam / Calm Mind on you. I think Weavile would be a great partner to switch in Cresselia and Pursuit it (Cresselia always runs when they see Weaviles).
But why not a + SATK nature? I mean, you'll be able to Swords Dance and power up Earthquake anyway. That would guarantee a OHKO against the counters mentioned in the first post. Obviously, you could swap the excess of SATK to ATK evs.
It's funny how STAB on Earthquake (and SD, to a lesser extent) gives Garchomp the edge in this mixed set, Salamence seems to do the rest better. Still, if we're aiming at Cresselia rather than Blissey, Salamence might be just as effective. Lonely/Naughty, max Satk, 270 speed, rest in Attack looks very good. A single Dragon Dance puts it safely in 405 speed and only slightly less attack than a SDanced Chomp, but neutral Satk mence hits a higher number. Let's theorize for a bit.
To put things into perspective, some shitty comparison:
Garchomp
Naughty
16 Atk, 252 Satk, 240 Spd
357 // 330 // 226 // 259 // 185 // 300
Salamence
Naughty
120 Atk, 252 Satk, 136 Spd
331 // 369 // 196 // 319 // 176 // 270
Salamence has considerably less hp and a bit less SDef (against the pokémon you Intimidated Salamence's defense better), as well as a lower speed off the bat. Garchomp hits 660 with a SD, while Salamence hits 553 with a DD. It's probably too much to matter, considering a 319 Satk mence won't OHKO Hippowdon, Slowbro, Donphan, etc anyway, and it will have a harder time beating Blissey and Cresselia than Garchomp, thanks to Swords Dance. Keep in mind that Garchomp also is resistant to SR and plays a lot nicer in the Sand (while SR + sand + life orb outright kill salamence).
For this Fire Blast / Draco Meteor / Setup / Physical Attack moveset, Garchomp just does the job better, which is Great idea you guys had, Surgo and Mekkah, mad props to you for that. Also thanks for sharing this with the community. I guess I'll be hatching Lonely Gibles for the next week, heh.
To put things into perspective, some shitty comparison:
Garchomp
Naughty
16 Atk, 252 Satk, 240 Spd
357 // 330 // 226 // 259 // 185 // 300
Salamence
Naughty
120 Atk, 252 Satk, 136 Spd
331 // 369 // 196 // 319 // 176 // 270
Salamence has considerably less hp and a bit less SDef (against the pokémon you Intimidated Salamence's defense better), as well as a lower speed off the bat. Garchomp hits 660 with a SD, while Salamence hits 553 with a DD. It's probably too much to matter, considering a 319 Satk mence won't OHKO Hippowdon, Slowbro, Donphan, etc anyway, and it will have a harder time beating Blissey and Cresselia than Garchomp, thanks to Swords Dance. Keep in mind that Garchomp also is resistant to SR and plays a lot nicer in the Sand (while SR + sand + life orb outright kill salamence).
For this Fire Blast / Draco Meteor / Setup / Physical Attack moveset, Garchomp just does the job better, which is Great idea you guys had, Surgo and Mekkah, mad props to you for that. Also thanks for sharing this with the community. I guess I'll be hatching Lonely Gibles for the next week, heh.
Wow, special Garchomp 
IMO, Scarfchomp is more valuble, seeing as Mence can really do mixed or special or physical really well, and the surprise factor is gone after a few weeks anyway. A revenge killer, however, is always valuble. IMO people are still more shocked by a physical Salamence. Often you can get 2 DDs if they switch to a special wall, then a physical one. I digress... it's a potent idea. but IMO just relies on surprise, which, while valuble, isn't everything. Plus CM bliss w/ Ice Beam says hi.
Also, I nominate that all Garchomp sets that have a prefix and "chomp" be altered to be "champ" courtesy of Light.
IMO, Scarfchomp is more valuble, seeing as Mence can really do mixed or special or physical really well, and the surprise factor is gone after a few weeks anyway. A revenge killer, however, is always valuble. IMO people are still more shocked by a physical Salamence. Often you can get 2 DDs if they switch to a special wall, then a physical one. I digress... it's a potent idea. but IMO just relies on surprise, which, while valuble, isn't everything. Plus CM bliss w/ Ice Beam says hi.
Also, I nominate that all Garchomp sets that have a prefix and "chomp" be altered to be "champ" courtesy of Light.
That is true of course. However, there are teams that may or may not have Stealth Rock / Spikes, and may go for an alternative strategy instead.
ChainChomp is not the only good idea floating around to base a team around, and someone may wish to use this idea in a team where there is no room for stealth rock. Regardless, I've offered my end of the spectrum and contributed how spikes/stealth rock effects the battle in chainchomp's favor.
Was that _really_ necessary, Synre? I use my tier system because to me, it is the easiest way to calculate OHKOs and Two-hit KOs. Not to mention, there are some other people here who seem to like the tier system. I personally prefer to use my own system to analyse pokemon. I don't claim it to be the best, but it works and for me it is easier to use than damage calculators.
As for your other point: see my response to Surgo.
Woops, I made a mistake in calculating the crunch and outrage numbers. Crunch can only do 35% and outrage w/o sd does ~41%.
Even with swords dance though, that means a turn not hurting cressy, meaning the outrage w/ sd will be similar to draco meteoring (prediction move while cressy comes in) and then crunching/outraging.
Even so, cressy is the safest thing to this set, so I can imagine the popularity of cresselia rising as the popularity of chain chomp rises
Even with swords dance though, that means a turn not hurting cressy, meaning the outrage w/ sd will be similar to draco meteoring (prediction move while cressy comes in) and then crunching/outraging.
Even so, cressy is the safest thing to this set, so I can imagine the popularity of cresselia rising as the popularity of chain chomp rises
Blissey with Ice Beam and enough SA EV's is still pretty much the complete Salamence counter. It easily Softboils off Draco Meteor, can OHKO Salamence if it eats Dragon Claw, and Salamence has its set revealed for the most part. Worst case scenario its something like CB and it just realed its set.
Anyway, I think this Special Garchomp has too many assumptions.
For instance, the Spikes or SR assumption on Starmie. Basically you're assuming that: You have a Stealth Rocker that's already set up SR. 2. Garchomp has switched into a pokemon that can't threaten it. 3. Garchomp outpredicts the opponent, using FB on Bronzong/Skarm switches or Draco Meteor on other switches.
Then there's the "fake out with Swords Dance" bit. People go for the kill on Garchomp because they know it's a threat. If Starmie or Weavile or Mamoswine switches in while you're SDing you'll be forced out. You'll still have the element of surprise, of course, but now your opponent will be actively aware that you have a Garchomp and try to predict its return accordingly.
Finally, the Max HP/Min SDef assumption. Since when did Smogon believe in 252/252/6 spreads? If Hippowdon has even a little bit of SDef investments, it eats your Draco Meteor, ruining your surprise, then Slacks Off the damage.
In summary, I'd say it needs testing first. Theorymon is great, but as has been repeated many times, Smogon has higher standards than theory.
Funny, I was just discussing this same thing in IRC about an hour earlier. Same Salamence spread, too.
The consensus was, that while Salamence can do similar things with its better offense, it's durability is very questionable -- as apposed to Garchomp, 'Mence takes 25% SR damage + damage from Sandstorm.
But, in Salamence's defense, he doesn't need Draco Meteor (or can operate without it). Salamence can operate with a set like DDance/DClaw/Fire Blast (or even Flamethrower)/Hydro Pump. Granted, DDance is sort of wasted, but the extra mmph it provides DC, as well as the needed speed for a sweep is welcome.
Salamence can DC his common switch-in, Blissey (thinking SpecsMence) for about 50%, running from 369 attack or Fire Blast the Steel switch. That's 2hko with SR up on Blissey. Cresselia is different, but Cress also "walls" this Chain Chomp, as well (and Salamence, like Garchomp, can also consider Crunch somewhere). And while Garchomp needs Draco Meteor for common grounds like Gliscor, Donphan, and Hippowdown, Salamence has access to Hydro Pump. With that, bulky waters have more fun with you, but Mence can always use opt Draco Meteor instead. All other calcs with Fire Blast do much more damage with the 60 point sattack difference.
This is all almost completely off-topic but
And you can use whatever the hell you want that makes it easier for you to calculate damage, but pretty much every single post you've made in this thread has had about half of its content based on your tiers. I don't think its a stretch of the imagination to think that '1.34 attack tiers,' '3.01 special defense tiers', or '56.10 power' mean pretty much nothing to a majority of the people reading your posts unless they go check your topics to try to grasp how much that is. I don't really care what you use to calculate damage; that's none of my business. However when you're posting in a thread like this it would dramatically improve the comprehensibility of your posts to translate it back into a system that the majority of your readers are actually familiar with.
Additionally I don't really see anywhere in that post you linked that the poster actually used your tier system to do anything.
Anyway this thread isn't the place for this debate, if you want to keep going with it PM me but I'd appreciate it if you'd restrict the numbers you throw around to ones from a system that nearly everyone is familiar with.
And you can use whatever the hell you want that makes it easier for you to calculate damage, but pretty much every single post you've made in this thread has had about half of its content based on your tiers. I don't think its a stretch of the imagination to think that '1.34 attack tiers,' '3.01 special defense tiers', or '56.10 power' mean pretty much nothing to a majority of the people reading your posts unless they go check your topics to try to grasp how much that is. I don't really care what you use to calculate damage; that's none of my business. However when you're posting in a thread like this it would dramatically improve the comprehensibility of your posts to translate it back into a system that the majority of your readers are actually familiar with.
Additionally I don't really see anywhere in that post you linked that the poster actually used your tier system to do anything.
Anyway this thread isn't the place for this debate, if you want to keep going with it PM me but I'd appreciate it if you'd restrict the numbers you throw around to ones from a system that nearly everyone is familiar with.
I don't think so, I'll address these points in order.Deck Knight said:
Since when were these major assumptions to make? Stealth Rock is ridiculously easy to set up, in the team I made to test Chain Chomp's effectiveness I would set it up on turn 1 90% of the time. It's not like #2 is difficult either, Garchomp is quite easy to switch in on many things. As far as #2 and #3 combined go, in battles I would often weaken something with another pokemon, often sacrificing it, only to let Garchomp get in and be able to threaten it with an OHKO on Draco Meteor anyway in order to ease prediction. I think -you- make a few too many assumptions by assuming the Chain Chomp user isn't going to have the foresight to do a little bit of scouting and profiling early on in the match.
That's acceptable. In fact, I'd say it's more than acceptable. It means the opponent is also more likely to switch their bulky ground or whatever in on Garchomp when they see you've used Swords Dance (in the event that they've read this thread), AND you've managed to scout them for just WHAT their Garchomp counter is. I'd say it's a fair trade.
If someone wants to run enough special defense on Hippowdon to take Garchomp's Draco Meteors, I'd be happy to run them over with another physical pokemon that they can no longer defend as well against because they diverted EVs from defense or attack into special defense.
Pretty sure I tested this quite a bit on wifi and shoddybattle, as did many others. Ask before making an ass out of yourself with statements like that.
I think I'm going to have to agree with Deck Knight here. While I don't doubt this thing has an edge with the surprise factor (until everyone and their fucking dog starts using it, at least), a lot of the calculations are assuming a best-case scenario where you don't mispredict and your opponent is obliging enough to keep their Pokemon in for you to whack. Nothing wrong with that, but it's obviously easier said than done.
