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Chandelure

I bet this has been stated before in the 28 pages of this thread at least once, but Shandera is only good with Shadow Tag. 145 Special attack? Nice, but Rampardos has 165 and it was NU last gen. Flash Fire Shandera is terrible. That's why Shandera ain't very popular in the wifi ladder. Shadow tag is what truly makes it good. Send it in on Nattorei, or Breloom, and that's one free kill for you. Generally when I fight Shandera, it only gets in one kill, which isn't too good for a sweeper. However, I won't deny the fact that it always kills one pokemon, usually a sweeper or something. It just can't do much off of it's 80 speed.

I don't think flash fire shandera is bad to the extent that it will be NU like Ramparados. Ramp had terrible speed and terrible defenses. Shandera's defenses are not too bad (though it's weak to some of the most common attacking types, plus stealth rock), and its speed is high enough that it can be rectified with a choice scarf. I could see shandera easily being decent in UU.

Aside from its average speed and common weaknesses, though, I'd say that the main thing keeping it out of OU is that it's outclassed by Gengar and Heatran. If you want a special attacking ghost, Gengar is much faster and its special attack isn't too much lower than shandera's. It also has levitate, granting it immunity to entry hazards and ground attacks. For fire types, Heatran has better defenses and resistances (especially to stealth rock), and its special attack is on par with Gengar's.

However, with those two likely becoming OU again, I'd say shandera has a good shot at being UU, at least until shadow tag gets released.
 
I don't think flash fire shandera is bad to the extent that it will be NU like Ramparados. Ramp had terrible speed and terrible defenses. Shandera's defenses are not too bad (though it's weak to some of the most common attacking types, plus stealth rock), and its speed is high enough that it can be rectified with a choice scarf. I could see shandera easily being decent in UU.

Aside from its average speed and common weaknesses, though, I'd say that the main thing keeping it out of OU is that it's outclassed by Gengar and Heatran. If you want a special attacking ghost, Gengar is much faster and its special attack isn't too much lower than shandera's. It also has levitate, granting it immunity to entry hazards and ground attacks. For fire types, Heatran has better defenses and resistances (especially to stealth rock), and its special attack is on par with Gengar's.

However, with those two likely becoming OU again, I'd say shandera has a good shot at being UU, at least until shadow tag gets released.


Even without Shadow Tag,Shandera is a good revenge killer with STAB Overheats.
 
Even without Shadow Tag,Shandera is a good revenge killer with STAB Overheats.

Sure. I'm not saying shandera is useless in OU without shadow tag, but there are other good revenge killers, so you have to ask whether or not you want shandera to be your revenge killer or if you'd rather have Heatran or Gengar on your team. So far, PO players seem to favor gengar and heatran over shandera on the wifi ladder (Gengar is #9, Heatran #6 and shandera sits at #40).
 
Thought you guys might appreciate this. Maybe anyway. I was just screwing around and being my usual gimmicky self.


Battle between Alphatron and Zaknifa started!

Tier: Dream World
Variation: +13, -18
Rule: Rated
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Species Clause

Zaknifa sent out Electrode!
Alphatron sent out Deoxys!
Deoxys is exerting its Pressure!

Start of turn 1
Deoxys used Magic Coat!
Deoxys shrouded itself with Magic Coat!

The foe's Electrode used Taunt!
The foe's Electrode's Taunt was bounced back by Magic Coat!
The foe's Electrode fell for the taunt!

Start of turn 2
Zaknifa called Electrode back!
Zaknifa sent out Shuckle!

Deoxys used Light Screen!
Light Screen raised Alphatron's team special defense!

Start of turn 3
Deoxys used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around Zaknifa's team!

The foe's Shuckle used Toxic!
Deoxys was poisoned!

Deoxys is hurt by poison!

Start of turn 4
Deoxys used Reflect!
Reflect raised Alphatron's team defense!

The foe's Shuckle used Knock Off!
It's super effective!
Deoxys lost 6 HP! (1% of its health)
The foe's Shuckle knocked off Deoxys's Light Clay!

Deoxys is hurt by poison!

Start of turn 5
Alphatron called Deoxys back!
Alphatron sent out Ninetales!

Ninetales is floating on a balloon!
Ninetales's Drought intensified the sun's rays!
The foe's Shuckle used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around Alphatron's team!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 6
Alphatron called Ninetales back!
Alphatron sent out Forretress!
Pointed stones dug into Forretress!

Zaknifa called Shuckle back!
Zaknifa sent out Magmortar!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Magmortar!

The sunlight is strong!
Forretress restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 7
The foe's Magmortar used Flamethrower!
It's super effective!
Forretress lost 332 HP! (93% of its health)
Forretress fainted!
The foe's Magmortar is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!
Alphatron sent out Aianto!
Pointed stones dug into Aianto!

Start of turn 8
Aianto used Befriend!
The foe's Magmortar gained Truant!

The foe's Magmortar used Cross Chop!
Aianto lost 43 HP! (16% of its health)
The foe's Magmortar is hurt by its Life Orb!
Aianto used its Escape Button!
Alphatron called Aianto back!
Alphatron sent out Shandera!
Pointed stones dug into Shandera!

The sunlight is strong!
Shandera restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 9
The foe's Magmortar is carelessly slacking off!

Shandera used Calm Mind!
Shandera's Sp. Att. rose!
Shandera's Sp. Def. rose!

Alphatron's light screen wore off!
The sunlight is strong!
Shandera restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 10
Shandera used Protect!
Shandera protected itself!

The foe's Magmortar used Thunderbolt!
Shandera protected itself!

The sunlight is strong!
Shandera restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 11
The foe's Magmortar is carelessly slacking off!

Shandera used Calm Mind!
Shandera's Sp. Att. rose!
Shandera's Sp. Def. rose!

Alphatron's reflect wore off!
The sunlight is strong!
Shandera restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 12
Shandera used Protect!
Shandera protected itself!

The foe's Magmortar used Thunderbolt!
Shandera protected itself!

The sunlight is strong!
Shandera restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 13
The foe's Magmortar is carelessly slacking off!

Shandera used Calm Mind!
Shandera's Sp. Att. rose!
Shandera's Sp. Def. rose!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 14
Shandera used Protect!
Shandera protected itself!

The foe's Magmortar used Thunderbolt!
Shandera protected itself!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 15
The foe's Magmortar is carelessly slacking off!

Shandera used Calm Mind!
Shandera's Sp. Att. rose!
Shandera's Sp. Def. rose!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 16
Shandera used Protect!
Shandera protected itself!

The foe's Magmortar used Thunderbolt!
Shandera protected itself!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 17
The foe's Magmortar is carelessly slacking off!

Shandera used Calm Mind!
Shandera's Sp. Att. rose!
Shandera's Sp. Def. rose!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 18
Shandera used Protect!
Shandera protected itself!

The foe's Magmortar used Thunderbolt!
Shandera protected itself!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 19
The foe's Magmortar is carelessly slacking off!

Shandera used Calm Mind!
Shandera's Sp. Att. rose!
Shandera's Sp. Def. rose!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 20
Shandera used Protect!
Shandera protected itself!

The foe's Magmortar used Thunderbolt!
Shandera protected itself!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 21
The foe's Magmortar is carelessly slacking off!

Shandera used Nitro Charge!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Magmortar lost 10% of its health!
Shandera's Speed rose!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 22
Shandera used Protect!
Shandera protected itself!

The foe's Magmortar used Thunderbolt!
Shandera protected itself!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 23
Shandera used Nitro Charge!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Magmortar lost 9% of its health!
Shandera's Speed rose!

The foe's Magmortar is carelessly slacking off!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 24
Shandera used Fire Blast!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Magmortar lost 35% of its health!
The foe's Magmortar fainted!

The sunlight is strong!
Zaknifa sent out Electrode!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Electrode!

Start of turn 25
Shandera used Fire Blast!
The foe's Electrode lost 87% of its health!
The foe's Electrode fainted!

The sunlight is strong!
Zaknifa sent out Omastar!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Omastar!

Start of turn 26
Shandera used Fire Blast!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Omastar lost 87% of its health!
The foe's Omastar fainted!

The sunlight is strong!
Zaknifa sent out Shuckle!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Shuckle!

My opponent quit after turn 25 and I wasn't even trying that hard. Sure my opponent screwed up using cross chop against Aianto instead of flamethrower...but if Aianto had died, I would have obtained a free switch to shandera anyway. And at that point, you'll either have to carry something that's immune to fire blast or you've probably lost. 4/252 Tyranitar takes 71.9% - 84.5% with life orb from +6/+6 modest shandy. Meaning he's still crippled (not accounting for hazards) even if he attempts to stop you.

This isn't a perfect strategy or anything like that, as you'll have to make sure your opponent isn't scarfed when you send out aianto and your opponent has to attack you to set off the escape button, but still. I can't imagine that the opportunities would be too hard to find with proper team building and prediction.
 
Just found a great partner for Shandera ;D

ShinyMebukijikaSpringanimated.gif

@ Petaya Berry
-Substitute
-Agility
-Baton Pass
-Wood Horn/Cheer Up

609.gif

@ Petaya Berry
-Substitute
-Calm Mind
-Shadow Ball
-HP Fighting

Basically Baton pass Agility to Shandera whilst also lowering your health as you sub. If they can't break the sub,keep using agility or use Cheer up for +1 Sp.Attack
Then Baton pass to Shandera that can either use CM or Sub to get the petaya boost.
At +2 speed and +2 Sp.Attack,only the most bulky an survive.
Things to look out for:
Aqua Jet/Sucker punch/Shadow Sneak/Strong Bullet Punch Users
Priority Taunt users
Do NOT let Mebukijika get poisoned/paralyzed/etc.

With Mebu being immune to Ghost,and attracting mons with Fighting,Fire,Ice,and Bug,it's not too hard to start a sweep.
 
^I've tried out that combo before and I love it. Only I run aromatherapy on Mebu and Fire Blast on shandera instead of hp fighting. Shandera really loves the flash fire boost more so than it liked trying to trap things.

As for why I ran Flash Fire over Shadow tag? Blaziken. Well, before he started carrying night slash anyway...
 
So...you lost the ability to use your item because you replaced it with Shed Shell. And this is apparently countering Shandera. It's more of a lure, really, and a complex one which forces you to run a Pursuit user (one that can take an Overheat / Flamethrower at that) to pull it off.

That's called overcentralising. One Pokemon is making you drop a Life Orb (or Leftovers, Specs, etc.) so that you can 'counter' it. (Shandera can still happily shit all over your Gengar and Mamoswine, depending on the circumstances. So keep that in mind.)
 
So...you lost the ability to use your item because you replaced it with Shed Shell. And this is apparently countering Shandera. It's more of a lure, really, and a complex one which forces you to run a Pursuit user (one that can take an Overheat / Flamethrower at that) to pull it off.

That's called overcentralising. One Pokemon is making you drop a Life Orb (or Leftovers, Specs, etc.) so that you can 'counter' it. (Shandera can still happily shit all over your Gengar and Mamoswine, depending on the circumstances. So keep that in mind.)

Ya, Shandy does that, and with the wifi clause, I dont pull Mamo or Gengar out untill Shandy is gone

Its worse than Chomp was last gen
 
Shadow Tag Shandera is broken, I don't think anyone can argue that anymore.

I don't get it. Why is it broken. Wobbuffet was broken because it allowed such easy set up of powerful sweepers. All Shandera does is kill one pokemon, and allow someone else to come in and take it out. Shandera carries weaknesses of the three most common types: Ground, Water, and Dark, and it carries a Stealth Rock weakness, allowing for easier handling. The metagame is based on a combination of balanced and hyper offense; it's harder for Shandera to set up and sweep, when many of the pokemon used hit hard enough to rip Shandera a new one.
 
Basically everything is a common attacking type now, can we move past that line of thinking? And hey, Celebi was weak to 7 attacking types, but nobody cared about that when they put that on their teams and kept it consistently OU for all of Gen 4.

Shandera is not all about sweeping, it's more like "lol, i just took out your main defensive pokemon, you are now doryuuzu weak" or "lol i just killed your weather setter, gg". There's no way you can be blind to its influence in the DW meta.
 
All Shandera does is kill one pokemon, and allow someone else to come in and take it out.

One major argument I heard for banning mence in gen 4 was that it always/almost always got at least one kill and then "it's job was done". Ofc, these two aren't the same, as shandera has much less sweeping potential and is pursuit weak, I'm just saying.

I don't have a personal opinion on dream world shandera yet as i don't play DW, but I'm using a scarfed flash fire shandera on my standard team which to be honest really isn't that great. Its like a scarftran, only worse (not 100% accurate but I would really run scarftran over it on most teams).
 
Basically everything is a common attacking type now, can we move past that line of thinking? And hey, Celebi was weak to 7 attacking types, but nobody cared about that when they put that on their teams and kept it consistently OU for all of Gen 4.

Shandera is not all about sweeping, it's more like "lol, i just took out your main defensive pokemon, you are now doryuuzu weak" or "lol i just killed your weather setter, gg". There's no way you can be blind to its influence in the DW meta.

1. Everything may be a common attacking type, but hell, most of the successful mons have great typings that have optimal strengths in terms of having the least weaknesses. In Gen 4: Scizor = a fire weakness, Salamence = Ice and Dragon. Yes you're right, everything may be a common attack, but the pokemon who can successfully defend the best can succeed. (Or they're just bulky enough to tank through most attacks such as Celebi).

2. That argument can be extended to anything that takes out another pokemon. Lol I just took out your X mon with my Garchomp's Outrage. Lol I just took our X mon with my Scizor's Bullet Punch. Etc etc you get the point. Any pokemon can be fitted to take out whatever you need the best for your team; Magnezone took out steels, allowing for dragons to come in and take out everything else with Outrage. Shandera merely fulfills the same niche: Taking out whatever is the best for your team (albeit filling a greater niche)
 
Yeah, but you can save a Pokemon vulnerable to Scizor's BP by switching in Heatran or Magnezone. Or Bronzong (Nattorei,etc.) into Garchomp's Outrage.

Try doing that against Shandera without running Shed Shells on half your team.
 
That argument can be extended to anything that takes out another pokemon.
Those Pokemon don't have Shadow Tag. If you want to preserve that sweeper or wall for later, then too bad, Shadow Tag. Magnet Pull only works on Steels; Bullet Punch traps absolutely nothing, and neither does Outrage.

Keep in mind that if you have anything Choiced that Shandera resists, he can set up on you with a non-choiced set and probably get more than one kill. If you don't have a Pursuit user that resists Fire on your team (EX: you're using Scizor), he can rack up a body count before he goes out that way too.
 
This has probably been mentioned before, but I find that Shandera is absolutely mandatory on Sunny teams. Not just because its STAB is boosted, but with Ghost STAB and Shadow Tag, Shandera guarantees its kills on Spin blockers. Rapid Spinners are necessary as Ninetales and other common Sun abusers are Stealth Rock weak, and removing (T)Spikes would also prolong Ninetales' life. Not only that, but with sun out, Shandera can get away with using Solarbeam without worry of a weather changer switching in.

Shandera is too good really.
 
This has probably been mentioned before, but I find that Shandera is absolutely mandatory on Sunny teams. Not just because its STAB is boosted, but with Ghost STAB and Shadow Tag, Shandera guarantees its kills on Spin blockers. Rapid Spinners are necessary as Ninetales and other common Sun abusers are Stealth Rock weak, and removing (T)Spikes would also prolong Ninetales' life. Not only that, but with sun out, Shandera can get away with using Solarbeam without worry of a weather changer switching in.

Shandera is too good really.

not really, if shandera switches in on the wrong poke like lets say a doryzu(dont know how to spell his name) in sand then hes screwed by an earthquake

EDIT: just noticed you were talking about him on a sun team.... well i guess he would be useful there but i was talking about if you use him on a non-weather team
 
not really, if shandera switches in on the wrong poke like lets say a doryzu(dont know how to spell his name) in sand then hes screwed by an earthquake

EDIT: just noticed you were talking about him on a sun team.... well i guess he would be useful there but i was talking about if you use him on a non-weather team


Tons of people use him on a non-weather team.
Without Shadow Tag,it's a Heatran with less bulk and more attack or a Gengar with less speed and more attack.
Shandera also looks better >.>
 
Those Pokemon don't have Shadow Tag. If you want to preserve that sweeper or wall for later, then too bad, Shadow Tag. Magnet Pull only works on Steels; Bullet Punch traps absolutely nothing, and neither does Outrage.

Keep in mind that if you have anything Choiced that Shandera resists, he can set up on you with a non-choiced set and probably get more than one kill. If you don't have a Pursuit user that resists Fire on your team (EX: you're using Scizor), he can rack up a body count before he goes out that way too.

Again, they may not have shadow tag, but they will take out a chunk of your team. As said previously, Garchomp will severely cripple whatever switches in that does not resist his Outrage. How is this any different from Shandera having the ability Shadow Tag. My question to you is why should we ban Shandera, when its ability to take out anything (that doesn't resist Fire/Ghost/Whatever else it runs) is rivaled by the top OU offensive threats?

The only reason why I can see we may have to ban it is that the user can "select" what to take out. Then again, prediction comes into play, especially when the opponent knows that you're running a shandera. A smart opponent will bait in a Shandera, while switching out a counter.

Again, your argument about set up can be applied to Garchomp too! Switch in on an electric move, that does absolutely nothing, proceed to Swords Dance on the switch, and will "probably get more than one kill." Same logic here.
 
Shandera is pretty average. It would struggle to be OU without DW giving it Shadow Tag. The only set it can use with any consistent success is Choice Scarf, which just leaves your team open to devastating hits after you've picked your target off.

The boosting sets suffer from huge 4-moveslot syndrome. It has Calm Mind, Acid Armor, Nitro Charge, Minimize, Substitute...all of these great moves to set up on opponents but it can't use them all because of how many things in OU resist Fire. You pretty much have to have a second attack.

80 base Speed is also a big letdown, especially on something that is Pursuit weak.

Overall, Shandera is a mediocre pokemon with an incredible ability. Too bad most of its best counters are already high OU. The popularity of Tyranitar and rain teams are going to ensure that Shandera doesn't get too out of hand.
 
Again, they may not have shadow tag, but they will take out a chunk of your team.
Taking a chunk of damage out of something is not the same as a KO, especially one you can't switch out of.

As said previously, Garchomp will severely cripple whatever switches in that does not resist his Outrage.
This statement is far too vague to be taken in literal context, so let's propose a scenario. Before Garchomp uses Outrage, the following conditions have to be met: a) it's boosted by SD, making it relatively safe to use, or b) you've properly scouted your opponent's team and know that it's the safest/only option you have to adequately threaten what's in front of you, as well as what might switch-in.

This is not the same as getting a kill with Shandera. For one, its strongest move doesn't lock it in, and on top of that, you don't have to worry about what switches in unless the target is carrying a (rather obvious) Shed Shell. If Nattorei or Forretress have Shed Shell, you'll either need to predict by using another move or set up a sub to make sure you can deal with what's coming in with WoW, Shadow Ball or something. Keep in in mind that the incoming Poke cannot switch, even if the matchup becomes unfavorable.

The only reason why I can see we may have to ban it is that the user can "select" what to take out. Then again, prediction comes into play, especially when the opponent knows that you're running a shandera. A smart opponent will bait in a Shandera, while switching out a counter.
Eh...see, the inherent problem with arguing prediction is that it's inconsistent; you can play any ol' goofball on ladder, execute said strategy, and say it works, but it's a different ballgame with regards to two experienced and equally skilled players.

For example, I'm using Scizor, I can abuse his slow U-turn to push prediction in my favor then bring in Shandera to kill whatever you send out. That or I can just wait until a point in the game where you can't afford to predict and switch it in on the safest opportunity. See how quickly this gets us nowhere? Prediction doesn't work as a valid argument unless it's within reason.

Again, your argument about set up can be applied to Garchomp too! Switch in on an electric move, that does absolutely nothing, proceed to Swords Dance on the switch, and will "probably get more than one kill." Same logic here.
I really don't think you understand how Shadow Tag works. If Garchomp switches in on an Electric move, the Pokemon using it can switch out. Once it does, Garchomp is facing down its check/counter. That means it's not getting a kill at all.

Against Shandera, you do not have that option. Shandera gets a free kill because the Pokemon it's threatening cannot switch. If Chomp gets a free kill because your opponent didn't have a decent way to stop it, that's dandy, but it's not the same thing as keeping anything you come in on from switching, then subsequently killing it or setting up and killing other Pokemon afterward.

And food for thought: if X has broken properties and so does Y, then there's a striking possibility that both are similarly overpowered. Such is not the case here, however, as Garchomp and Shandera have two entirely different roles and capabilities. Any comparison drawn between the two of them would be loose, at best.

Overall, Shandera is a mediocre pokemon with an incredible ability. Too bad most of its best counters are already high OU. The popularity of Tyranitar and rain teams are going to ensure that Shandera doesn't get too out of hand.
I find that statement pretty ironic because Shandera is the Pokemon I tend to use to kill off other weather starters. Once your Politoed takes a Specs Energy Ball or Tyranitar takes a Specs HP Fighting, you're pretty boned.
 
And food for thought: if X has broken properties and so does Y, then there's a striking possibility that both are similarly overpowered. Such is not the case here, however, as Garchomp and Shandera have two entirely different roles and capabilities. Any comparison drawn between the two of them would be loose, at best.

The fact that both X and Y have the same broken properties (if those are what makes them broken), then in fact they are both broken.
 
The fact that both X and Y have the same broken properties (if those are what makes them broken), then in fact they are both broken.

That's completely circular logic though. His point was that you can't even compare X to Y to deduce that X is broken in the first place if they're significantly different.
 
Overall, Shandera is a mediocre pokemon with an incredible ability. Too bad most of its best counters are already high OU. The popularity of Tyranitar and rain teams are going to ensure that Shandera doesn't get too out of hand.

Yeah that's why Shandera is the most used Pokemon in DW...But agreed.

Shandera is a crappy(yes crappy) Pokemon with a broken ability.Once everything stabilizes Shandera without Shadow Tag should be bottom NU because it is a horrible,horrible Pokemon.If you forget that it has Shadow Tag, it is a pretty useless and crappy Pokemon.

Tried it in Wi-Fi with Flash Fire and it was beyond retarted.There is no reason to use it without Shadow Tag.People will try of course but instantly realize that they should be using Heatran instead.Being Ghost is great and all but it has horrible weaknesses and almost every other Ghost is better without the rock weakness.

Without a doubt one of the worst Pokemon in Generation 5.Try out Flash Fire Shandera with any set you wish and you will realize how horrible it truly is.Try it out and then respond to this.Also, try out Heatran or any other Ghost and tell me that there is any reason to use this Pokemon.140 Special attack is amazing, but i would rather have 130 and no rock weakness with better resistances..Basically nothing is redeeming of Shandera without Shadow Tag.

Shadow Tag is a broken ability period.It makes the game frustrating and just not fun.The worst part is the Shandera has immunities,Shadow Tag and immunies should have never been brought together...

Shadow Tag,which is broken, makes a horrble Pokemon amazing.Same as how Eccentric,a great ability, makes Ditto a good Pokemon.

Shandera=Horrible
Shadow Tag=Broken
 
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