Changing our Metagame Plan: Sixth Tier proposition.

[Biolizard28]

First of all, a big thanks to Hipno, whose own made up Uber list inspired this idea.

After reading through the D/P tier discussion thread, I started thinking: What if there was another tier? One where debated Ubers and Pokemon that nearly centralize the Metagame would go? chaos had spoken in that thread about coming up with ideas, and may even be working on it as we speak. But I'd like to lay my cards on the table. (Boldface Pokemon are additions from previous generations.)

First, Hipno's "Tier list".

This is what I would like to suggest..

Uber:
Mewtwo
Mew
Wobbuffet
Lugia
Ho-Oh
Latias
Latios
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Deoxys (all forms)
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Manaphy
Darkrai
Arceus
Tyranitar
Celebi
Dragonite
Salamence
Metagross
Jirachi
Azelf
Heatran
Cresselia
Zapdos
Raikou
Shaymin
Suicune
Garchomp

Possibly Uber:
Uxie
Mesprit

Ok, I had this idea when I was making arguments against trialing Ubers. Essentially I was looking at the gap in stat totals between ubers and non ubers and using that as the basis for my argument.

If you look pokemon from a purely stats position, you have legendaries with 580 total stats, and then the next highest it Arcanine with 555, Togekiss with 545, then you have 8 pokemon with 540. The difference between the 580 tier and the 540 tier is ~7%. In that space there are 19 pokemon. Ok, but if you start at 540 and then take pokemon within 7% there are 57 pokemon - 3 times as many.

Now of course comes the argument that stats isnt everything. Well no it isnt, but of the pokemon that would have been legal but I am suggesting should be banned, all have awesome typings, excellent move pools, and with the exception of Dragonite, fantastic traits..

I think 6 (possibly 8) legendaries should be allowed: Moltres, Articuno, Registeel, Regirock, Regice and Entei (and possibly Mesprit and Uxie). These would be legal because they are hurt by their movepools, traits or typings..

I have removed half of the Dragon Type pokemon from the game, but really Dragon is an almost broken type.. It has valuable resists, Outrage and Draco Meteor and the fact that they are only resisted by steel is sorta ridiculous really..

In my opinion this would be the most ballanced tierset.. A lot of people have disregarded it mostly because I havent put any real effort into arguing for it..

But of course we come up against AA's problem of trying to maximise two variables: ballance and total number of available pokemon. So I guess in many respects it is a matter of opinion..

While I don't like the idea of alienating key Pokemon, Hipno brings up a good point. Even the Metagame as it is (though barely developed) seems centralized. Tyranitar's Sandstream and the Sp. Defense boost it gains make Sandstorm teams a very potent threat. SpecsMence is perhaps the most powerful immediate Special threat in the entire game. Garchomp packs some of the most powerful moves available, all boosted by Swords Dance. Plus, he makes a great point about Dragons in general. Valuable resists, attack typing with only one resist and no immunities. These Pokemon are monsters, in a different sense entirely.

But banning them into Ubers makes no sense. Threats will still exist, and banning these clearly excellent Pokemon from competitive play seems almost criminal. But then again, in even Advance, these guys were the bane of every team, prepared or not. So what can we do? Simple.

The game changes over time. The Metagame evolves. And we must adapt. Which is why I propose that there be a tier in between OU and Ubers. Pokemon labeled dominating forces in OU, but not quite able to compete with the Uber tier. A name for just an idea seems foolish, but I've dubbed this new tier True OU.

When you think about a tier like this, it makes sense. The OU Metagame gets a heavy weight lifted off its back, while those in TOU won't be confined to an environment in which they're nearly unplayable. People who want to play OU can do so without carrying a SpecsMence couner on every team variation, or have to keep a Steelix on hand to block Garchomp's inpending Outrage. In TOU, those Pokemon can see action, and that's when we find ourselves in a slightly more constricting Metagame, but still, an entirely playable one. Hell, we're doing so right now.

Pokemon That Could Make TOU

Coming soon.


One more thing. Don't bring up Blissey for this tier. I won't do anything, really because I can't, but after seeing some reactions in the D/P Tier thread, the moderators do not seem tollerate people trying to drag Blissey into a higher Metagame then OU. Only saying this to keep this thread from turning into a Mod vs. User battle zone.

 

[Drab Emordnilap]

The tier name sounds a bit presumptuous, honestly.

 

[Biolizard28]

Well, it's not even official. >_>

 

[ZinkOxide]

I think it makes sense on some level, as a way to counter the effect of ubering pokemon who aren't uber class yet not OU, but then you have 3 tiny metagames. Not so much fun.

 

[Glen ^^]

A lot of the Pokemon listed in the TOU are common switches on Blissey.
If Blissey stayed in, what could be a Blissey counter?

 

[DEL337ED]

You can't keep moving Pokemon out of standard play. If you do this tier system, you'll just find that in a few months people will only be using the same group of 12 or so Pokemon. And then they get moves up. And this stupid cycle continues.

Think about it: it's not hard to prepare your team so that base 600 Dragons don't rip through you. Dragons aren't as bad as they may seem IMO.

 

[Dances with Ninjas]

I like "The Land of Misfit Pokemon" myself.

 

[chocobattler]

Judging by the pokemon you bolded, if they made TOU, then that tier would be incredibally sweep oriented, even more than it is now, and almost any other pokemon besides the ones you bolded that were added to the list wouldn't see any action in that tier.

 

[Deception]

No. Another tier isn't necessary. Pokemon debated as ubers, such as Tyranitar and Celebi, have plenty of counters and therefore should remain in OU. Manaphy works well in ubers, which is why I'm fine with it being moved there.

 

[Jibaku]

I'm not even fine with Celebi being moved to debatable. I don't see why it should be even considered for ubers

 

[Ph03n!x-Br]

I like "The Land of Misfit Pokemon" myself.

"TLOMP". lol.

I agree with Heraweak, but Celebi isn't even close to Uber level.

Others like Jirachi, Azelf, Cresselia, Heatran (it sucks IMO >.>), Garchomp, Dragonite and Suicune/Raikou should definitely stay in OU. All of them can be countered, despite their good stats / movepool.

 

[Hipmonlee]

I dont think you will keep eliminating 12 pokemon and find a more ballanced tireset than what I selected.. I didnt come to this decision arbitrarily.

Some true Blissey counters: Mismagius, Heracross, Dusknoir, Rhyperior, Snorlax, well I could go on but there are millions tbh..

And having counters doesnt mean a pokemon shouldnt be Uber. I mean, TTar with its special defense can switch in on so much so easily, and then ruin stuff with pursuit before a counter even gets anywhere near it.. I mean, Advance isnt short on Deoxys [defense] counters, but its impact on the metagame would be ridiculous..

Have a nice day.

 

[AndrewRogue]

How funny that this was posted while I was writing up a proposition on condensing the current tier list, because I find that it alienates more pokemon. :p These "between tiers" (Borderline and your proposed TOU or what not) seem to never actually get used and end up just being another name for "things that don't get used in the tier above it."

So, in the end, it becomes a pointless distinction that adds MORE arguing when the truth is that the end result barely matters (see: OU and BL). I personally dislike this as really, there is NO way to make some pokemon not get the short stick unless you create about a dozen different tiers. And that just seems... stupid to me. Nobody is going to play most of them, and thus they end up just being wastes that limit what is usable in a given tier mroe.

 

[Firestorm]

A tier between OU and Uber makes absolutely no sense to me. There are already only like 30 OU Pokemon. If you make a "TOU" tier, there'll be what... 6? Guess how many Pokemon are on a team =/ Putting them to Uber doesn't matter too much, Ubers is not a balanced or truly competitive game. It's already the "Land of the Misfit Pokemon." If they are not fit for OU, they are in Ubers.

That or I misunderstood what you're saying.

 

[Calciphoce]

You're acting as if dragons have no counters. Really, choice scarfed ice beams are so common now that considering most dragons to be uber is ridiculous.

 

[Kietharr]

Borderline ubers like the trio legends and the Dragon gang really do overcentralize the metagame quite a bit. Ice is the only move type that I am sure to keep on at least 2 of my pokemon, because I am nearly guarenteed to see somthing x4 weak to ice in any team, this is because of Dragons, salamence and garchomp mostly.

But IMO, it shouldn't just be based on "this guy has 580 base stats", it should be based on the actual pokemon's power. Why even bother banning Shaymin, I have an item hacked one that i'd never think of using even though I EV'd it and got the correct nature with salvageable IVs. Raikou dosn't deserve a ban either, because he's basically a slightly slower slightly bulkier Jolteon. Just take out the dragon crew+metagross, the all 100 stat legends (Although imo celebi is fine in OU, i've never had an issue dealing with one). I wouldn't bother removing legend trio pokemon, because how often do you see those? That may change in compeditor, but for the moment a proper nature/IV Raikou or Suicune isn't common enough for such an extreme measure.

Call the new tier Borderline-Uber, giving people the option to simply move up to this tier rather than dumping ttar and the like. While the metagame is being developed, I would also like to see a bit of testing done around some other legendaries, like Deoxys-F, that are subpar and unseen otherwise. I don't tend to think he'd be a major threat in OU even with recover. Maybe not in OU without the dragons/ttar, but move shitty legendaries like him into BL-Ubers so they'd have a chance at seeing occasional playtime.

I don't think anyone here is saying "OMG SLALMENCE UESD DRAC METER ADN BEET MI TEEM", it's just that almost every other team you run into will be using Salamence/Dragonite/Garchomp/Tyranitar/Metagross and it's not really exciting to see them anymore. Their power is what makes everyone go for them, and creating a new tier in order to seperate these pokemon that are clearly a notch above most of the OU crowd would improve standard OU gameplay. You could obviously still play BL-Ubers without changing your team, it would just provide a defined list for the top of OU, rather than face oppinions that vary massively on what is considered top OU or not.

 

[taziathegreat]

IMO if we do go through with the TOU or what ever it would be called it should be a middle ground of sorts where the less powerful things in uber tier (like Manaphy Latios and latias) can play with the strongest things in OU'ed like (Blissey).

 

[Havak]

To be honest, switching in Tyranitar is not as easy as you would think. Sure, it has the HP, Defence and SDef Boost, but hear me out. Tyranitar is usually brought in on a free switch, when one of your own Pokémon is KO'd. This then allows you to get an attack in, providing Tyranitar can scare off the Pokémon your opponent has out. (Note that this applies mainly to CBTar) You then have to choose whether to predict the switch in, or hit the switch out with Pursuit providing the damage is worth considering, on something like Celebi for example. This is when you find out your opponents best counter for Tyranitar, so you can plan ahead. If your opponent has a solid counter in Hippowdon or something, you're not getting through it without a lot of support, even when utilizing prediction.

So, I feel that the majority of the time, you've lost a Pokémon, and found out your opponents Tyranitar counter, just by using Tyranitar in your team. I know that Tyranitar has good Defensive stats, but I find it a lot harder to switch in safely due to the common weaknesses, and let's face it, you're not outspeeding much when you do come in.

Tyranitar needs the upmost of prediction skills to be effective, the Dancer has to be left late, like most sweepers, or at least have its main counter disposed of before it can work. So I feel it's irrelivant counting this kind of Tyranitar as an all game threat. A team does need to deal with this, yes. But teams need to deal with every stat upping sweeper, and every Choice Bander/Specs user in one way or another.

I really do feel that Tyranitar isn't making as much of an impact as everyone states. Yes, it's a great Pokémon and extremely powerful, but it's becoming somewhat overrated with all this on going discussion. It's not Uber.

I also find the idea of this new Tier rather silly, sorry.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Well.. I agree that TTar isnt making a huge impact at the moment, I think that is mostly because people arent using it to its full potential..

I dont really want to go into that in depth right now though..

Have a nice day.

 

[Kietharr]

IMO if we do go through with the TOU or what ever it would be called it should be a middle ground of sorts where the less powerful things in uber tier (like Manaphy Latios and latias) can play with the strongest things in OU'ed like (Blissey).

If a top overused tier were to be created, I'd bet a lot of money that Blissey wouldn't be in it. There simply aren't enough special wall options in the game to remove one of them. With Garchomp, you can replace it with another physical attacker, with blissey the only real options you get are Cressalia (which would probably end up in TOU), Regice, and Snorlax. Blissey is easy enough to kill anyways, the only advantage it has is the ability to come in easily and force a switch, one good physical attack will usually knock her the fuck out.

 

[taziathegreat]

If a top overused tier were to be created, I'd bet a lot of money that Blissey wouldn't be in it. There simply aren't enough special wall options in the game to remove one of them. With Garchomp, you can replace it with another physical attacker, with blissey the only real options you get are Cressalia (which would probably end up in TOU), Regice, and Snorlax. Blissey is easy enough to kill anyways, the only advantage it has is the ability to come in easily and force a switch, one good physical attack will usually knock her the fuck out.

what i was trying to say was that we should just make it like BL where everything in there is also allowed in OU,Ubers,OR All three(blissey would be one of those )

 

[Nightmare]

If there was a true OU made, then some things should be moved down too like Mew. It just does not hold itself up to par unless you use the Transformation Glitch, even though it does learn every TM.

Just my thoughts.

-James

 

[Teferi]

You must have never played Yu-Gi-Oh. When I was younger and I played yu-gi-oh, I thought the same thing: metagames need to be adapted to. Once I quit Yu-Gi-Oh and started playing MtG, I realized how ridiculously long the banned and restricted list was in yu-gi-oh. MtG did not and still does not have such a problem. I thought, for a long time, that this was because the designers of MtG had more practice and ways to limit power than the designers of Yu-Gi-Oh had. While this is true to some degree, this is not the reason for the ridiculously long list of banned cards in yu-gi-oh. It is because every time that the metagame shifted towards one archetype, the key cards in the archetype were banned. This always caused another shift in the metagame and resulted in a loop. If we were to ban the key pokes in our metagame right now, new powerhouses would just rise to the front and would cause the same problems, resulting in more banning. Don't fall to the same trap that yu-gi-oh players have fallen into by believing that banning cards/pokes will fix the metagame; it won't. The only way to fix a metagame is for players to play around the key threats. That is what a metagame is, after all.

 

[Fishin]

But IMO, it shouldn't just be based on "this guy has 580 base stats", it should be based on the actual pokemon's power. Why even bother banning Shaymin, I have an item hacked one that i'd never think of using even though I EV'd it and got the correct nature with salvageable IVs. Raikou dosn't deserve a ban either, because he's basically a slightly slower slightly bulkier Jolteon. Just take out the dragon crew+metagross, the all 100 stat legends (Although imo celebi is fine in OU, i've never had an issue dealing with one). I wouldn't bother removing legend trio pokemon, because how often do you see those? That may change in compeditor, but for the moment a proper nature/IV Raikou or Suicune isn't common enough for such an extreme measure.

Raikou and Jolteon are pretty different. Raikou's a CM sweeper, while Jolteon is usually a BP-er.

Anyways, as for the idea...I really don't like it. It seems to be based almost completely off base stats, and doesn't take into account the fact that Pokemon with less base stats can very easily compete on an equal level with the 600's of the OU tier. For example, Infernape. Incredibly versatile movepool and excellent stat distribution easily make him able to do very well against most of the base 600's, and there are plenty of other pokemon with lower base stat totals that can be similarly good (Swampert, Gengar, Heracross, etc).

 

[Castlevaynia]

IMO if we do go through with the TOU or what ever it would be called it should be a middle ground of sorts where the less powerful things in uber tier (like Manaphy Latios and latias) can play with the strongest things in OU'ed like (Blissey).

YAY! SOMEONE MAKES SENSE!


Honestly, I've seen Metagross, Garchomp, Blissey, Salamence, etc. do some DISGUSTING things to other OUs

It should be a sub-tier... IE:

Uber
Mewtwo
Wobbuffet
Lugia
Ho-Oh
Latias (Dew)
Latios (Dew)
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Deoxys (all forms)
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Darkrai
Arceus
Uber - OU transition
Mew
Tyranitar
Latias (no Dew)
Latios (no Dew)
Manaphy
Dragonite
Salamence
Metagross
Jirachi
Azelf
Cresselia
Zapdos
Raikou
Shaymin
Suicune
BLissey
Garchomp
OU (everything else)

Basically, it would allow the option of a game for low level ubers and high level OU, while alo making it possible not to have to deal with the 600 club every game otherwise.