Pokémon Charizard

[Bravadorado]

I was merely trying to point out that while Yzard may have better defensive typing, but Xzard can use that same typing to benefit himself before Mega evolving.

Anyway I might come across as an Xzard fanboy atm but I'm not. To be honest I think both Mzards are really good and like I stated in my earlier post shouldn't be compared as they serve different roles.

It's true, but you'll only get to use that probably once. You can certainly get a free switch in with Xzard just as Yzard can if you predict a ground move. However, if you try and predict that an enemy will not use a rock move (Or any SE move, really) while you are out and take that chance to DD or what have you, you are more than likely going to die. Really the only benefit of an immunity id switching in to a predicted immunity for a free switch in. As I said, Xzard can do that once, but trying to do it again is a waste of potential or it could flat out kill you. Yzard on the other hand can do it many times without wasting potential or puttting itself at increased risk (However, the risk is already high).

No not really, you make a very valid point that Xzard does get that free switch in, which is very nice for it. Pointing out things that are valid doesn't make you a fanboy. It's when you ignore the disadvantages a pokemon has and boast it's strengths that gives off that vibe (Or when you boast the weaknesses and downplay the strengths of it's competition).

 

[mrglass]

I think you should not care for the attack stat unless you run flare blitz or earthquake or both

Don't worry about attack investment. Flame Charge on Zard Y is first and foremost for boosting. The residual damage is very nice for breaking sashes and sturdy, or just getting that last percentage of health, but it's not meant to be a main attacking option.

Also, I realized something the other day. With Drought and effective use of Roost, Mega Charizard Y has 1 weakness to rocks, and a quite good Sp. Def stat. I could see it being a rather interesting tank, especially considering you don't really even need to invest in Sp. Atk.


Something like this
Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Nature: + Sp. Def - Atk
EVs: 252 HP/252 Sp. Def/ 4 Sp. Atk
Dragon Tail
Roost
Fire Blast
SolarBeam

 

[SlaXer]

Testing confirms Tough Claws gives a x1.33 boost, meaning Mega Charizard X is hitting as hard with Flare Blitz and Outrage as if it had Adaptability. Any calcs assuming a x1.2 boost were only giving 90% of the move's actual power.

That's fucking amazing.
Assuming 1.2x boost CharX needed SR to OHKO Azumarill at 1+ with thunderpunch 100% of the time and to 2hko Heatran, now it not only doesn't need SR, but it also can 2hko defensive heatran with SR.
Now the only reason to run EQ over TP once pokebank is released is Tyranitar, but dragon claw still does massive damage to it.

 

[Realm]

So basically, you took the two disadvantages that I already mentioned and just talked about them a whole lot.

You also talked a lot about Drought being countered, which is hilarious to me because this discussion was about typing. And in your own words:

And yet you hypocritically bring it up again and again.

Either way, I suppose you're correct that drought is countered easily enough, but what about Dragon Dance? Xzard needs a boosting move to be as powerful as Yzard. What if you never get the chance to boost? Things can go wrong for Xzard too. This goes double for your insistence that you can get drought support on Xzard. Are you going to get Drought, and then somehow get a boost off without being countered? If they see Ninetales and Xzard on your team then as soon as ninetales comes out they are going to send in someone with earthquake/stone edge/Draco meteor to destroy the Xzard switch in (Or destroy the ninetales if she stays in), and then you can try to boost and hope they don't OHKO you and that you can OHKO them back with the odds not in your favor.

That DD boost is way more important to you than having a Ninetales give you drought, and doing both is virtually impossible when against a smart player.

Anyway, you failed to give any examples of how Xzard has better typing. Again, all you did was talk a whole lot about the 2 disadvantages that I already acknowledged and spew nonsense about how with incredible luck and prediction you may be able to get Drought and DD on Xzard (Oh btw, if you send out Ninetales, what is stopping them from throwing out TTar or Hippowdon? Both of them can wreck Ninetales or Xzard on the switch in, and remove sun). All the while you failed to acknowledge the typing benefits that Yzard gains in no stab immunity, an immunity to ground, potential for only 2 weaknesses, 1 additional resistance, and both resistances on Yzard being much much better than the single resistance on Xzard. Ergo it would seem that you are just fanboying for Xzard and ignoring his flaws while boasting Yzards weaknesses and ignoring Yzards strengths.

I have nothing further to say to you if you are just going to selectively repeat what I've said, throw out situational flaws unrelated to the discussion at hand, and most importantly if you are going to be hypocritical and go against what you've said previously just to harp about Droughts weaknesses.

So, in other words, I'm a hypocrite because I brought up Drought not having anything to do with Y Zard's type and how it's not correct to mark off it's water weakness simply because of that? I'm bringing up Drought because people are factoring it in to his type, so therefore I have to discuss it.

Just because I'm talking down Y in comparison to X doesn't mean I'm ignoring his strengths and ignoring X Zard's weaknesses. Y gets Ground immunity - Great! Y is a nuke - Great! Y get's Drought - Great! All of this is very nice for Y and is part of what makes him so good. X Zard isn't flawless and Y has strengths different from X altogether. One thing they both share though is that they -both- need a speed increase. Drought is easily countered enough, yes, and Y Zard on top of that, in my experience, often requires something to manage his speed problem. Be that flame charge, sticky web support, or DD, is up to the player. But I've experienced this issue a number of times already to tell you that he needs it at least from my perspective - So how am I being a hypocrite in that when Y just as severely needs a boost as well? X Zard needs DD more for his speed than anything else, the Atk Bonus is just what makes it more worth it.

I specifically stated that Y's 4x weakness to Rock is what makes him a worse type, and I gave you clear reasoning. Of course X has his own support issues/countering, just because I'm not discussing them as much doesn't mean I'm not aware of them. I'm saying Y's weaknesses are worse for him in the metagame according to me, and all you did was pass it off as me "talking about it a lot". Neither X or Y are flawless, that doesn't mean I can't prefer one of them over the other, and I've made it clear I still love Char Y despite this. You've made it clear you prefer Char Y as well based off this thread alone, so please don't have the nerve to state that I'm "fanboying" over anything. I'm discussing Y's weaknesses very specifically because people were fanboying Y in the first place, and you were one of those people. Yes, Y is amazing - But believe it or not, it's the Y preference people that are usually going out of their way to compare the two, at least from what I've seen.

By all means, please stop responding to me. That'd be great.

 

[Shiruba]

Jesus Christ Smogonites getting all riled up over Charizard.

That said, it can be noted that Char-Y can play around its remaining two weaknesses [making electric normal and fire only x2] via clever usage of Roost provided that you're faster. Just throwin' that out there.
Also not unreasonable to lead with 'zard, especially since you can smash other weather leads and some hazard ones like Klefki and Ferrothorn and stuff - leading with it, of course, mitigates that SR weakness.

More importantly, though, Ardent, dude, chill out. It's Charizard. It's Pokemon. Get a drink of water, relax, it's all coooool here. No need to get offended if someone likes Char X and you don't, bro.

 

[Realm]

Jesus Christ Smogonites getting all riled up over Charizard.

That said, it can be noted that Char-Y can play around its remaining two weaknesses [making electric normal and fire only x2] via clever usage of Roost provided that you're faster. Just throwin' that out there.
Also not unreasonable to lead with 'zard, especially since you can smash other weather leads and some hazard ones like Klefki and Ferrothorn and stuff - leading with it, of course, mitigates that SR weakness.

More importantly, though, Ardent, dude, chill out. It's Charizard. It's Pokemon. Get a drink of water, relax, it's all coooool here. No need to get offended if someone likes Char X and you don't, bro.

That's another nice thing about Char Y. As a lead, being a Mega with Drought means it can't lose against another weather lead, which does happen to the others sometimes.

 

[Bravadorado]

More importantly, though, Ardent, dude, chill out. It's Charizard. It's Pokemon. Get a drink of water, relax, it's all coooool here. No need to get offended if someone likes Char X and you don't, bro.

I don't see how I'm upset. I was a bit confused as to how someone could think Xzard has better typing, and after explaining it and getting an answer I have decided that it's no use trying to explain it. Other than that though I'm pretty chill, got my slippers on and eating some candy, cycling through smogon threads. Why does typing a lot make me upset? I just like to be thorough and concise in my arguments.

The only thing I dislike about Xzard is how he looks lol, and even though I personally would never choose him due to that (I'm very aesthetically inclined), I can respect him and the reasons why other people would pick him.

Now Politoed on the other hand...

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

You gotta love how much attention Charizard is getting this generation thanks to his two Megas after Gen V where he was pretty much at the bottom of the barrel. Oh how things can change... Anyway, I'm on Team X as it's just more appealing to me, in terms of Design, Typing and the likes. One of the things I don't like about Zard Y is the arms and the third horn, but I'm getting off topic here.

 

[Immortal]

why don't we just stop arguing about which one is better and get back to posting viable sets instead of who is a hypocrite and whatever. Expanding on good team mates for each of them would be cool, as in getting specific, not just saying a spinner and something that resists rock. Also has anyone done calcs yet on the power of flamethrower vs fire blast? If you don't miss our a ton of key 2hkos it would be really nice to use perfect accuracy

 

[Shiruba]

This thread in a nutshell:

Hide

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

This thread in a nutshell:

Hide

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Though I hate to drag it out, I have to comment on that picture. Zard Y asks if Zard X has Electric on him, he gets Thunderpunch. Also, I can't help but feel that picture is sided more towards Zard Y, but hey, maybe that's just me.

 

[Shiruba]

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Though I hate to drag it out, I have to comment on that picture. Zard Y asks if Zard X has Electric on him, he gets Thunderpunch. Also, I can't help but feel that picture is sided more towards Zard Y, but hey, maybe that's just me.

He does get TPunch, it's true, but will he run it? That's the question.
I mean, he does have some 4MSS. It obviously wants Dragon Dance, plus two STABS, but what's the last move? Earthquake? Roost? Substitute? The potential TPunch?

 

[TheMohZone]

Well Zard Y is a late game cleaner in my book because as pointed out earlier it wants the team chipped out as much as possible before it sweeps as it misses OHKOs but gets a lot of 2HKOs(I know its been brought up before but MenceQuaza 2.0? Probably would work. hell you could team it with DNite as well) so Roost and Sub are probably out of the question. Thunderpunch and Earthquake is basically Personal preference, although Overheat should get a mention to break through physical walls. its still 4MSS but not as bad. if you wanted you could even Sac the Dragon Stab but if you are you should probably use Y.

 

[Realm]

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Though I hate to drag it out, I have to comment on that picture. Zard Y asks if Zard X has Electric on him, he gets Thunderpunch. Also, I can't help but feel that picture is sided more towards Zard Y, but hey, maybe that's just me.

That's because it is. Don't be afraid to call it out, that doesn't make you a fanboy.

Though, that doesn't mean it was made to be a fully serious representation of the thread anyway, so I wouldn't be bothered by it. It's all in good fun.

 

[Magcargo]

Why are we even comparing both Charizard forms when both have a completely different typing and stats? Saying that Charizard Y is better than Charizard X is like saying Darmanitan is better than Chandelure, even though they aren't even that comparable apart from being wallbreaking Fire-types.

If we are going to make serious comparisons, then we should should be comparing ZardX to Mence, Dragonite, or Zygarde and ZardY to something like Heatran, Volcarona and Ninetales.

 

[Realm]

We're never going to get the thread away from comparing X and Y unless we stop bringing it up, so let's move on shall we?

I'm not sure if Roost/Substitute is a good option for either Zard, but I haven't tested them out yet. I hesitate to use them on Y more than X, though - Just because Drought's only going to last 5 turns and we can only waste so much time doing other things. Then again, it might be worth it still in the right scenario. Char Y still has 159 sp. atk no matter what, at least.

I tend to go back and forth between Thunder Punch and Earthquake. Both of them are great to deal with different things..but I'm starting to edge on Thunder Punch, simply because we know Tough Claws is 30% now, and Flare Blitz can handle most of the other issues, like steel. Thunder Punch might even paralyze.

I'm very fond of Tailwind, though. My Char X did pretty awesome with it and even took out Garchomps on showdown, and I imagine it would work great on Y as well.

 

[angeldemon667]

I use M-Charizard Y And I run
Charizard@CharizardniteY
Timid Nature
252 SpA/252 Spe/6 HP
Flamethrower
Hidden Power (Dragon)
Solar Beam
Air Slash
(Ability Doesn't Matter)

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

I use M-Charizard Y And I run
Charizard@CharizardniteY
Timid Nature
252 SpA/252 Spe/6 HP
Flamethrower
Hidden Power (Dragon)
Solar Beam
Air Slash
(Ability Doesn't Matter)

Why not use fire blast instead of flamethrower? All around better IMO.

 

[Bravadorado]

I use M-Charizard Y And I run
Charizard@CharizardniteY
Timid Nature
252 SpA/252 Spe/6 HP
Flamethrower
Hidden Power (Dragon)
Solar Beam
Air Slash
(Ability Doesn't Matter)

Use Dragon Pulse over HP Dragon. It's flat out better.

 

[TheMohZone]

yeah theres alot wrong with that set. Why with Air Slash? What does it give ZardY. Hint the correct Answer is absolutely nothing. It can hit Fighting types harder I guess but every fighting type is going to get nuked by Fire Blast anyway.Solarbeam is the only thing right with that set and even then thats up for debate as Politoed, Tyranitar and Hippowdon will Ruin you if you carry that.

on Zard X Thunderpunch vs EQ.......why pick Thunderpunch? again its just for Bulky waters, which in BW OU which is what we go on right now amounts to Jellicent, Tentacruel Vaporeon and Gyarados (Unless you Count Toed who won't live a Dragon Stab anyway) and of those 4 you already hit Tenta Super effectively with a more powerful move and Jellicent isn't available yet. your basically running it for Gyarados. EQ on the other hand Hit Ttar. honestly no matter what else it hits, that wins it, thats better for it. another thing it will hit when its released is Heatran and i would take the Ability to hit Heatran over most other pokes in the Tier. there is no sign of Heatran exactly dropping in usage, nothing introduced to give that indication, infact despite the Steel nerf Heatran seem BETTER this gen. It also gives you a way to hit Aegislash would triggering Kings Shield and EQ is slightly more powerful even after the Tough Claws boost. now its 50/50 basically players preference but after pokebank its gotta be EQ.

 

[Realm]

yeah theres alot wrong with that set. Why with Air Slash? What does it give ZardY. Hint the correct Answer is absolutely nothing. It can hit Fighting types harder I guess but every fighting type is going to get nuked by Fire Blast anyway.Solarbeam is the only thing right with that set and even then thats up for debate as Politoed, Tyranitar and Hippowdon will Ruin you if you carry that.

on Zard X Thunderpunch vs EQ.......why pick Thunderpunch? again its just for Bulky waters, which in BW OU which is what we go on right now amounts to Jellicent, Tentacruel Vaporeon and Gyarados (Unless you Count Toed who won't live a Dragon Stab anyway) and of those 4 you already hit Tenta Super effectively with a more powerful move and Jellicent isn't available yet. your basically running it for Gyarados. EQ on the other hand Hit Ttar. honestly no matter what else it hits, that wins it, thats better for it. another thing it will hit when its released is Heatran and i would take the Ability to hit Heatran over most other pokes in the Tier. there is no sign of Heatran exactly dropping in usage, nothing introduced to give that indication, infact despite the Steel nerf Heatran seem BETTER this gen. It also gives you a way to hit Aegislash would triggering Kings Shield and EQ is slightly more powerful even after the Tough Claws boost. now its 50/50 basically players preference but after pokebank its gotta be EQ.

It's mainly for Azumaril, which is seeing a lot of play lately due to it's new Fairy type. It's such a hard counter against X, being both resistant to Fire and immune to Dragon. Unless, of course, you run Thunder Punch. Jellicent is also kind of annoying and it's nice to surprise users of it with a good ol' lightning fist. It also gives him something against Mega Char Y and Mega Blastoise, not that I'm running into many (Can Dragon Claw OHKO Char Y without a DD and popular natures/builds? I assume it would, just haven't been able to test it)

They're two very viable moves for him, I think..it's a shame he has to choose between them (but it depends on the set I guess), but I can see why most would prefer EQ. I just think Thunder Punch tends to surprise them more.

 

[I2edShift]

Unrelated to the other X vs Y discussion, so am I correct that XZard has an effective 173 Atk stat with contact moves, while Yzard has 159 special without sun and 238 with sun and only fire attacks?

Tough Claws is 33% boost and Drought is 50% to fire attacks. Am I correct in all this?

If so, dayum. He they might not be able to wear choice items, but that's damned good IMO.

 

[assassinfred]

Jut came up with a Sun team that involves both MCY and Ninetales. You would not believe how effective a combo it is having two Drought users on the same team. Shores up the weather problem rather well.

 

[Achelion]

What is everyone's opinion on Brick Break or Shadow Claw as a coverage move instead of Earthquake? They reach 95-100 BP with tough claws with some upsides.

 

[Galon]

with tough claws being 1.333x it's like you get a 100 BP hidden power for charizard X
100 BP Eletric, 10% chance to paralyze
100 BP Fire, 10% chance to burn
100 BP Fight, breaks barriers
100 BP Ground, doesn't make contact

+ other stuff not really that usefull like
93 BP Ghost, high crit chance
106 BP Dark, 20% chance to lower target def

even if you can't grab all those coverage moves, you can at least make your opponent afraid of what you may have...

What is everyone's opinion on Brick Break or Shadow Claw as a coverage move instead of Earthquake? They reach 95-100 BP with tough claws with some upsides.

I really like Brick break, but I can't see why you would run with shadow claw.