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Pokémon Charizard

Which one these MEvos will be OU in your opinion?

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Dralcax said:
While X has a better typing and a great ability, I think Y wins here. It can hit very hard with Fire Blast and SolarBeam thanks to Drought. He has a ridiculous 159 base SpA and Drought. Fuck rocks, this thing is going to be a major threat in OU. That said, it might be interesting if X made it into OU as well, to keep the opponent guessing when they see Charizard in team preview..
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Comparing ZardX and ZardY is, for the most part, irrelevant. ZardY is a wallbreaker that punches holes in teams while ZardX is a set-up sweeper also capable of going mixed.

Comparing them based on what they bring to the meta though, hm. ZardY, coverage-wise, is like Volcarona. The thing they differ in is that ZardY offers more immediate power (Drought + higher Sp.Atk) where Volcarona has to find that free turn to set-up in order to sweep.

While ZardX is added to the list of dragon dancers dragonite, salamence and haxorus, each having their own niche but all being potent enough for OU.
 
ZardY offers more than just immediate power over Volcorana.

ZardY also offers more defensive advantages with its fire-flying typing and Drought ability.

Attacking type vs. ZardY / Volcorana

Advantage ZardY
Ground: x0 / x1
Water*: x1 / x2
Flying: x1 / x2
Bug: x.25 / .5
Fire*: x.75 / x1

*assumes sunlight for ZardY

Advantage Volcorana
Electric: x2 / x1
Ice: x1 / .5

Every other attacking type is a draw.

Also - Entry Hazards. Both are obviously x4 weak to SR, but ZardY has the advantage of immunity to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sticky Web. Volcorana is not so lucky.

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I also think ZardY has an advantage with its attacks.

Bug Buzz has 135 base power with STAB compared to 120 base power with Solarbeam. But Solarbeam offers better coverage in conjunction with its Fire attack.

Fire is obviously resisted by Water, Rock, Fire, and Dragon.

Solarbeam is super effective against Water and Rock. Bug Buzz isn't super effective against any of those types.

Both Solarbeam and Bug Buzz are resisted by Fire.

Solarbeam is resisted by Dragon while Bug Buzz does neutral damage to Dragon. That counts for something, although there is no such advantage against the many Dragon/Flying types, who still resist Bug.

One last nice advantage is that ZardY isn't utterly walled by Heatran, when it has Focus Blast.

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Volcorana is obviously the one with sweeper potential, but for all other purposes ZardY is better. Instead of being at a total disadvantage against water-types, it is at a total advantage against them. It can inflict massive damage with no set up against anything that isn't somewhat bulky with either a Dragon or Fire typing. And it can beat Heatran.

Not saying that ZardY is flat-out better than Volcorana or anything, I just wanted to offer a more extensive list of advantages it has over Volcorana. The advantages of Volcorana are obviously Quiver Dance, use of an item, and not using up your Mega spot.
 
elnimio said:
Number 1 advantage of Charizard Y over Volcarona:

1. It doesn't get completely destroyed by Talonflame's Brave Bird
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252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 288-340 (96.9 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Wouldn't say that.

The two play different roles, wallbreaker (Zard) vs. setup sweeper (Volc). Up to you to decide what you need.
 
elnimio said:
Number 1 advantage of Charizard Y over Volcarona:

1. It doesn't get completely destroyed by Talonflame's Brave Bird
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That's definitely a huge problem. Talonflame, Heatran, and Azumarrill are all so common and all of them can switch into Volcorana easily and force him to switch out.

ZardY on the other hand doesn't particular fear any of them being switched in.
 
effyouzion said:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 288-340 (96.9 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Wouldn't say that.

The two play different roles, wallbreaker (Zard) vs. setup sweeper (Volc). Up to you to decide what you need.
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But if the opponent has Talonflame, it can't switch into ZardY without taking a huge amount of damage from Fire Blast.

Volcorana on the other hand simply can't set up if the opponent still has a healthy Talonflame.
 
WaterlooZoo said:
But if the opponent has Talonflame, it can't switch into ZardY without taking a huge amount of damage from Fire Blast.

Volcorana on the other hand simply can't set up if the opponent still has a healthy Talonflame.
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Naturally, but you can still hit Talonflame on the switch if you're Volcarona. You won't hit nearly as hard, but just because Talonflame is a thing doesn't mean Volc will never set up.
 
effyouzion said:
Naturally, but you can still hit Talonflame on the switch if you're Volcarona. You won't hit nearly as hard, but just because Talonflame is a thing doesn't mean Volc will never set up.
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Well, obviously.

But it's worth pointing out that Talonflame, Heatran, and Azumarrill are all very common, and ZardY handles all of them much better than Volcorana can. Which is one of the advantages ZardY has over Volcorana.
 
So I've obviously not read the past 26 pages to see if a similar post exists which it almost certainly will; what kind of madman would do? However is it just me or does Charizard Y make for for a great offensive lead? What you're looking at is a 159 SAtk mon with what amounts to a +1 boost to fire moves; with Focus Blast, Solar Beam (both for great coverage) and Flare Blitz (to hit special walls) shit gets crazy. That's an horrendous boost straight off the bat, and using it as a (suicide) lead more or less eliminates SR issues. Have a physically defensive mon you can switch into which covers its ass and you're set.

If you pair it with your own alternate Prankster Taunt lead (I like Sableye) to stop irritating set-up and focus sash sheninagans in alternate leads (Scolipede, Smeargle, Gavantula, or anything that screams out "hazard lead"), in some ways it's more daunting to have Charizard on your team as with two Mega evos and without a team that explicitly points to either one of them your opponent has no idea what to do with your Charizard (should they hold off on using their Fairy for an X, etc.). I've yet to actually use Charizard-Y, all of these observations are based on opponents using them on me, yet it still seems killer in an almost borderline over-powered sense (it has its weaknesses, but being able to hit so hard off the bat is crazy).
 
Jojobobo said:
So I've obviously not read the past 26 pages to see if a similar post exists which it almost certainly will; what kind of madman would do? However is it just me or does Charizard Y make for for a great offensive lead? What you're looking at is a 159 SAtk mon with what amounts to a +1 boost to fire moves; with Focus Blast, Solar Beam (both for great coverage) and Flare Blitz (to hit special walls) shit gets crazy. That's an horrendous boost straight off the bat, and using it as a (suicide) lead more or less eliminates SR issues. Have a physically defensive mon you can switch into which covers its ass and you're set.

If you pair it with your own alternate Prankster Taunt lead (I like Sableye) to stop irritating set-up and focus sash sheninagans in alternate leads (Scolipede, Smeargle, Gavantula, or anything that screams out "hazard lead"), in some ways it's more daunting to have Charizard on your team as with two Mega evos and without a team that explicitly points to either one of them your opponent has no idea what to do with your Charizard (should they hold off on using their Fairy for an X, etc.). I've yet to actually use Charizard-Y, all of these observations are based on opponents using them on me, yet it still seems killer in an almost borderline over-powered sense (it has its weaknesses, but being able to hit so hard off the bat is crazy).
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Yes, absolutely. That's exactly how I've been using my ZardY - as a lead.

It's amazing how many Rotom-Ws and Azumarrills I have switching into my Charizard lead, only for them to find out it's actually a ZardY and be 1HKoed.

I suppose people will catch on eventually, but right now it's easy money taking out those water types.

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I've been using this set.

Charizard@CharizarditeY
Timid / Modest
252 Sp.Att / 252 Spe / 4 HP
-Fire Blast
-Solarbeam
-Focus Blast
-Hidden Power Ice

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Alternatively, I've had some success with a bulkier ZardY.

Charizard@CharizarditeY
Modest
252 Sp.Att / 252 HP / 4 Sp.Def
-Fire Blast
-Solarbeam
-Focus Blast
-Roost
 
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elnimio said:
....but aren't dragons resistant to Fire?
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Dragon Pulse is an option for hitting dragons, but Fire Blast does hit 73% as hard as Dragon Pulse against dragons (170 base power vs 124 base power).

For me, Dragon Pulse should never be used over Fire Blast/Solarbeam/Focus Blast.

It's a solid option for the 4th move, maybe even the best one. But not a necessary one.
 
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Imo, HP Ice > Dragon Pulse. Hits so much more mons and most importantly, and gets rid of that Garchomp thinking that it can force ZardY out. ZardY doesn't really have any business staying in against other dragons that are not 4x weak to Ice anyway(Goodra, Lati@s twins).
 
DaiGuren said:
Imo, HP Ice > Dragon Pulse. Hits so much more mons and most importantly, and gets rid of that Garchomp thinking that it can force ZardY out. ZardY doesn't really have any business staying in against other dragons that are not 4x weak to Ice anyway(Goodra, Lati@s twins).
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Yeah, good point. I updated the moveset I listed.
 
HP Ice or Flare Blitz two of the best options for a 4th move-slot for Y Zard. One for x4 Ice weaknesses and the other for tackling Special walls that sometimes come in against you.

Even in the best of cases, Charizard just doesn't have the bulk (X or Y) to survive more than a few attacks, regardless of which one you're using. You're better off blowing shit up until it dies, switching it out when you need to.

Dragon Pulse is a lesser option that gives you something to use against dragons. Sun-boosted Fire Blasts hit pretty hard, but not enough for 600 BST dragons. That's really it's only purpose, but really even with 252+ SpA, Dragonpulse just doesn't have the BP to chew through them as fast as I would like. It's a lesser option that's easily accessible, compared to breeding HP Ice onto one on cartridge.

Don't even get me started on Air Slash...
 
Call me crazy but thoughts on Flame Charge on a CharY? Assuredly thing guy prompts switches, and a +1 Timid CharY gives it a huge advantage especially against slower scarved mon that were hoping to get the leg up on you. Depending how often you actually find yourself using your 4th coverage move it could really give CharY the upperhand.
 
Has anyone thought about using the bulk EV spread and made MegaZard X a burn shuffler with Dragon Tail/WoW/Roost/Filler? On paper he has the stats for it, but really I just wanna see if anyone has done it to shoot my terrible idea down.
 
Jaroda said:
Call me crazy but thoughts on Flame Charge on a CharY? Assuredly thing guy prompts switches, and a +1 Timid CharY gives it a huge advantage especially against slower scarved mon that were hoping to get the leg up on you. Depending how often you actually find yourself using your 4th coverage move it could really give CharY the upperhand.
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Imo Flame Charge is, after extensive testing, borders on "gimmicky". Reason is that, your sun will only last for 5 turns, which is imo what prevents it from sweeping. Factor in the trolly accuracy of Fire Blast + things that wall ZardY(Blissey, Heatran, Tyranitar), you're better off with 4th coverage move instead.

You can argue that you can remove counters before trying to "sweep" with ZardY but at that point, you'd be better off using ZardX since ZardY is better for early game offensive pressure, in my experience. And bringing out an unevolved Charizard early game puts a huuuuuuge pressure on the opponent, which should be utilized by every Zard user.

Personally, I like switching in my ZardY when I predict an SR, since almost all popular SR setters can be OHKO'd by ZardY(yes, even Tyranitar since ZardY will overwrite Sandstorm when it comes in)
 
I also think Flare Blitz isn't really a viable top on ZardY.

Modest ZardY has 459 sp. attack, and Timid ZardY has 419 sp. attack, compared to its 243 attack stat.

So there's almost never a reason for you to use Flare Blitz over Fire Blast, even against specially defensive Pokemon.

Chansey/Blissey might be an exception, but then consider that if ZardY uses Flare Blitz against a Chansey/Blissey it's doing pretty much the same amount of damage to itself as it is the opposing Chansey/Blissey. Not good.

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After testing out ZardY extensively, Hidden Power Ice seems to be by far the most useful 4th attack option, as it is a 1HKO against pretty much all dragon/flying and dragon/ground types - and it's extremely common for these Pokemon to switch into ZardY thinking they can take a resisted hit and force ZardY out.
 
If you want some gimmicky moves for the 4th slot to try out Charizard has a lot of those, for example Focus Punch, Will-o-Wisp, Toxic, Outrage, Rock Tomb and Bulldoze all have some kind of extremely niche use. The most appealing of those for me is Focus Punch for Heatran/Blissey/Chansey/Tyranitar, and Rock Tomb/Bulldoze have the same function as Flame Charge only they offer less damage but some alternate type coverage. Bulldoze catches Scarf Heatran for example where Flame Charge would not.

I'd prefer something sensible like Roost or Focus Blast myself though.
 
I run HP ice AND flare blitz and i havent been dissapointed, something feels good about killing gliscor then blissey after sr. Also works wonders in conjunction with my boomburst LO swellow(Testing it out and it is kinda decent)

Also on the above post, why run rock tomb/bulldoze when you have rock slide/EQ I know speed helps but Flame charge seems better.
 
Piccolo289 said:
Also on the above post, why run rock tomb/bulldoze when you have rock slide/EQ I know speed helps but Flame charge seems better.
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I pretty much explained it in my post but I'll repeat myself, it combines Flame Charge's speed modification with additional coverage. It's extremely niche as I mentioned and you're right that Flame Charge is usually better but if Scarf Heatran for example switches in you can 2HKO it with Bulldoze without taking a hit which you couldn't do with Flame Charge.

The main point I wanted my post to be about was Focus Punch catching its main counters on the switch-in (it's unique in that it hits Tyranitar/Heatran like Earthquake but also Blissey/Chansey like Flare Blitz in one moveslot), also I love using that move without a substitute I feel so pro when it goes off. :)
 
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