Battle Spot Cinderace (QC 2/2) (GP 1/1)

[SET]
name: Libero
move 1: Pyro Ball
move 2: High Jump Kick
move 3: Sucker Punch / Zen Headbutt / Iron Head
move 4: Bounce / Iron Head / Counter
item: Life Orb / Lum Berry / Focus Sash
ability: Libero
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
in-battle alt: Gmax

[SET COMMENTS]

* Gigantamax Libero Cinderace serves as a fast multi-faceted wallbreaker and sweeper with access to a plethora of powerful STAB coverage options.

* Pyro Ball allows Cinderace to reliably check Ferrothorn and other Grass- or Steel-types without fear of taking damage from missing. It also turns into Gmax Fireball when Dynamaxed, an incredibly powerful Max Move that ignores opposing abilities, helping Cinderace take down Thick Fat, Disguise, and Sturdy Pokemon in particular.

* High Jump Kick is needed to beat Porygon2, Lapras, and Snorlax, which would otherwise give Cinderace trouble. After Dynamax, Max Knuckle guarantees hits against Protect stalling, prevents miss recoil against Ghost-types, and boosts Cinderace's Attack to near-unwallable levels.

* Sucker Punch gives Cinderace access to powerful priority, allowing it to check many variants of Dragapult, OHKOing variants without bulk.

* Zen Headbutt gives Cinderace the ability to hit Toxapex well while also potentially setting up Psychic Terrain to avoid getting revenge killed by priority attacks.

* Iron Head makes Cinderace an effective Fairy-type check, OHKOing offensive Togekiss as well as taking out Clefable during Dynamax.

* Bounce gives Cinderace access to Max Airstream, which helps it sweep weakened teams.

* Counter is an alternative move choice to be used with Focus Sash to take advantage of physical attacks from otherwise solid checks such as Rhyperior, Hippowdon, and opposing Cinderace.

* U-turn can be used to maintain momentum on a predicted switch-in, such as Toxapex or Hippowdon, and can reduce damage output from special attacking threats through Max Flutterby.

* Life Orb is the standard item of choice, giving Cinderace immense damage output, and is often worth the small recoil damage, as it allows Cinderace to OHKO much of the metagame.

* Lum Berry can be used to defeat status-inducing Dragapult variants and play around Yawn spam.

* Focus Sash helps alleviate Cinderace's mediocre bulk and allows it to revenge kill foes that will not faint to Sucker Punch.


[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: High Jump Kick
move 2: U-turn
move 3: Pyro Ball / Sucker Punch
move 4: Iron Head / Gunk Shot / Sucker Punch
item: Choice Scarf / Choice Band
ability: Libero
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
in-battle alt: Gmax


[SET COMMENTS]

* High Jump Kick is required on a Choice-locked set, being Cinderace's most effective high-damage move.

* U-turn is always needed for Choice Item Cinderace, allowing it to pivot out of bad matchups and scouting opposing Pokemon without committing to a Choice lock.

* Pyro Ball is primary option in the third slot as the best coverage move against Corviknight, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn.

* Either Iron Head or Gunk Shot can be used in the last slot, dramatically improving Cinderace's matchup against the likes of Togekiss and Primarina.

* Sucker Punch faces awkwardness with the Choice lock, but the move can still be considered to improve the matchup against Dragapult.

* Zen Headbutt is an option to beat Toxapex, however, it's generally better to use that move in combination with a Dynamax sweeper variant.

* Gigantamax Cinderace is generally chosen in order to get more immediate damage output with Gmax Fireball than Max Flare, as well as being able to hit through Mimikyu's Disguise and ignore Snorlax's Thick Fat.

General Team Options
=================

Due to Cinderace's high flexibility with Libero, it can be used effectively with a wide variety of teammate options. However, since it initially starts as a Fire-type, defensively it should still be considered alongside Water- and Grass-type Pokemon. Grass-types in particular help cover Water- and Ground-types, which Cinderace struggles to hit super effectively, and can switch in against these well. Also, due to Cinderace's lower bulk, it is prone to being revenge killed by Focus Sash users, so Stealth Rock setters can be helpful for their chip damage. Finally, Cinderace can be paired with special attacking stallbreakers that can take advantage of passive dedicated physical walls such as Galarian Corsola and Toxapex with Taunt, Substitute, or Nasty Plot.

* Water-type Partners: :lapras: :primarina: :urshifu: :azumarill: :rotom-wash:

* Grass-type Partners: :rillaboom: :ferrothorn: :amoonguss:

* Stealth Rock Setters: :hippowdon: :clefable: :excadrill: :terrakion: :lycanroc-dusk: :skarmory: :tyranitar:

* Special Stallbreakers: :hydreigon: :togekiss: :porygon-z:
 
Last edited:
These are just sample sets, but if u have any cool ideas for sets or have suggestions for improvement, post it here for everyone to see, thanks!
 
Cinderace is really, really good. In a short time, it has shot up to #2 in usage, dethroning Mimikyu. Who knows if Dragapult is next or if the new toy syndrome will calm down and Cinderace will drop. Life Orb is the most popular set so far, but I am interested in the non-LO sets since LO is an item that is in high demand.

One thing to discuss is what nature to run on the non-choice sets. As of right now there is not much in the Base 100+ speed tier so Adamant seems fine but the popularity of Cinderace makes not losing the speed war pretty important and favors Jolly. In the past on Adamant sets, I preferred dropping the speed a bit in order to just outspeed Charizard and invest the leftover into bulk. It is a pretty minor thing and I am not even sure if it made a difference in battles.

I think it is important to point out that Iron Head is the most reliable and consistent attack and gives a good defensive typing. Having non-perfect accuracy on so many moves is upsetting and I fear I will give in and use Wide Lens.

I never used Greninja and most of the slash priorities seem to rely on that prior experience so I will not argue too much. I think HJK deserves at least a mention on the Choice set. The metagame was really missing a good Fighting-type and HJK fills that void. I plan to use Scarf Cinderace a bit this weekend and will see how it goes. STAB U-turn is great and being able to threaten or catch other common Scarf users off guard is nice. I plan to run Pyro Ball / HJK / Sucker / U-turn so I can report back how it goes.

Work Up and Bulk Up sets could be interesting but I think they will ultimately end up as unviable. Bulk Up is definitely more promising though.

Maybe one other thing to discuss is ways to deal with Cinderace. Having a Ghost-type feels pretty mandatory now in order to dissuade Cinderace from using HJK, which basically means more Dragapult and Mimikyu since Cinderace can hedge vs. Aegislash with Pyro Ball. Wisp Pult has done okay for me, but depends on winning some mindgames and them being the correct type as well as dancing the usual Dynamax dance. Hippowdon is very good. Sandstorm chip and Stealth Rock can quickly wear down opposing Cinderace. Gyarados with Intimidate is a good option as well.

Curious to hear others' thoughts as well.
 
For the Choice set, I have a new set I'm about to try on ranked:

Cinderace @ Choice Band
Adamant Nature
Ability: Libero
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Gunk Shot

This set is focused on being a wallbreaker. Pyro Ball and High Jump Kick are the moves I will focus in on.

Full offensive investment combined with Libero and Choice Band hits some ridiculous thresholds. Here are some of the calculations I've run so far:

Snorlax, who is arguably one of the hardest things to break and gameplan around, gets absolutely obliterated by High Jump Kick. Using max Atk + Def as the baseline, +1 Snorlax can still get OHKO'd by High Jump Kick unless it Dynamaxes:

252+ Atk Choice Band Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. +1 0 HP / 252 Def Snorlax: 234-276 (99.5 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Naturally, the outlook is quite a bit worse for something like Yawn Support that runs something closer to max HP + Def:

252+ Atk Choice Band Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Snorlax: 344-408 (128.8 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Since Cinderace might be switching into a Yawn, U-Turn also does respectable chip:

252+ Atk Choice Band Libero Cinderace U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Snorlax: 93-111 (34.8 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

While on the subject of Snorlax, that's also where the 44 HP EV's come from. The following is a Max Strike calculation against Cinderace:

252+ Atk Snorlax (Body Slam) Max Strike vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 138-163 (85.7 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

This in particular targets Assault Vest variants. With minimal bulk investment, Cinderace almost always survives Body Slam powered Max Strike at full health. This allows you to go for the High Jump Kick 2HKO against Dynamax.
This Cinderace set can muscle through one of the toughest physical walls in the game: Iron Defense Corviknight. Obviously, this was possible before Libero, but its still worth bringing up.

First, we will assume that Cinderace is switching in to a Corviknight who just used Iron Defense. So, let's see Pyro Ball against +2 Corviknight:

252+ Atk Choice Band Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Corviknight:
120-144 (58.5 - 70.2%)


Let's assume Corviknight uses Iron Defense one more time. Now we're up against +4 Corviknight:

252+ Atk Choice Band Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. +4 252 HP / 252 Def Corviknight:
80-96 (39 - 46.8%)


At worst (and assuming no misses,) we're chewing out 97.5% of Corviknight's health. At best, we have the potential to take out 117%, which is more than enough to offset Leftovers recovery. Now, that Leftovers recovery is the biggest hangup, but as long as Corviknight doesn't get in for free (or use Leftovers to heal off the chip damage while you switch in,) this is still looking really good.
Maximum ATK is used for the reasons outlined above. 44 HP was also highlighted in the Snorlax section as giving full health Cinderace excellent survivability against unboosted 130 BP Max Strike.

The 212 Spd EV distribution worked out rather nicely, giving Cinderace a speed stat of 166; this is just enough to outrun Timid Hydreigon. The big misses here are that you are slower than Durant and opposing max Spd Cinderace, but again this set is tuned more towards wallbreaking. Alternatively, 36 or even 28 Def EVs could be run to attain survivability akin to that outlined above, allowing you to run 220 or 228 Spd EV's to speed-tie or outrun, respectively, base 100 pokes like Charizard. Whether or not that's all that useful kind of remains to be seen.
I probably don't need to mention that Ferrothorn gets annihilated. The two main walls I see problems with are Hippowdon and Toxapex. Even without super-effective coverage, Hippowdon is technically "doable" but with Sitrus Berry recovery you need incredibly favorable rolls. Cinderace's coverage normally fares poorly against Toxapex unless you opt for something like Zen Headbutt (which still does not OHKO against full physical defense investment.) Given the rabbit's recent renaissance, who knows?
 

Theorymon

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Note since we're gonna upload sets without any writing (because writing is pointless when the DLC comes out in less than 2 weeks lol), I'm thinking we should make blaze sash its own set if we're gonna keep it, since new players may find it REALLY weird to have two dramatically different abilities being slashed there without any text. It may seem like a bit of set bloat, but since there's 0 writing and we'll have a more stable list of sets after the DLC, I figure that's ok!
 

cant say

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Battle Stadium Head
[SET]
name: Libero
move 1: Pyro Ball / Bulk Up
move 2: High Jump Kick
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Iron Head / Bounce
item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
ability: Libero
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

to summarise:
  • remove gunk shot, u-turn, focus sash, blaze and adamant entirely. these aren’t used and I don’t see them coming back
    • iron head is great for prim/azu. max ooze is bad
    • u-turn is only good on scarf which is a bad set atm
    • adamant is bad
    • why was blaze slashed
  • move bounce and iron head to 4th slot. possibly also slash bounce with sucker punch but that’s more controversial so happy to leave
  • add lum berry. it’s really popular, stops hippo yawn aka the best check, and wisp pult trying to burn sucker punch sets
    • yes I know if sucker fails libero doesnt activate, so wisp will fail if cinderace is currently a fire type. so wisp pult doesn’t work in the lead but it’s a great revenge killer. i’ve seen t wave pult too.
  • add bulk up to be slashed with pyro ball.
    • bulk up is usually fighting / dark / steel coverage, with bounce usually going over sucker
    • it’s not a fire type anymore lol


just change the current on-site scarf set to libero. remove choice band


[SET]
name: Blaze
move 1: Pyro Ball
move 2: High Jump Kick
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Counter / Substitute
item: Focus Sash / Liechi Berry
ability: Libero / Blaze
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

  • Standard set right before Libero was released. Counter > Blaze-boosted Pyro is so good at trading 2/1.5 for 1. SubLiechi is also nice, great way to stall slower Dynamax mons’ turns and then NUKE something with Pyro.
  • Can see working in current meta where everyone clicks Dynamax vs Cinderace in a panic and gets Countered / Sub stalled.


I don’t think we should include weakness policy. I love the sound of it on paper with the use of Libero to force activation on super-effective hits but in practice it’s likely very bad. haven’t seen a single one yet either



order of sets imo should be:

  1. standard libero
  2. blaze
  3. scarf
 
[SET]
name: Libero
move 1: Pyro Ball / Bulk Up
move 2: High Jump Kick
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Iron Head / Bounce
item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
ability: Libero
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

to summarise:
  • remove gunk shot, u-turn, focus sash, blaze and adamant entirely. these aren’t used and I don’t see them coming back
    • iron head is great for prim/azu. max ooze is bad
    • u-turn is only good on scarf which is a bad set atm
    • adamant is bad
    • why was blaze slashed
  • move bounce and iron head to 4th slot. possibly also slash bounce with sucker punch but that’s more controversial so happy to leave
  • add lum berry. it’s really popular, stops hippo yawn aka the best check, and wisp pult trying to burn sucker punch sets
    • yes I know if sucker fails libero doesnt activate, so wisp will fail if cinderace is currently a fire type. so wisp pult doesn’t work in the lead but it’s a great revenge killer. i’ve seen t wave pult too.
  • add bulk up to be slashed with pyro ball.
    • bulk up is usually fighting / dark / steel coverage, with bounce usually going over sucker
    • it’s not a fire type anymore lol


just change the current on-site scarf set to libero. remove choice band


[SET]
name: Blaze
move 1: Pyro Ball
move 2: High Jump Kick
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Counter / Substitute
item: Focus Sash / Liechi Berry
ability: Libero / Blaze
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

  • Standard set right before Libero was released. Counter > Blaze-boosted Pyro is so good at trading 2/1.5 for 1. SubLiechi is also nice, great way to stall slower Dynamax mons’ turns and then NUKE something with Pyro.
  • Can see working in current meta where everyone clicks Dynamax vs Cinderace in a panic and gets Countered / Sub stalled.


I don’t think we should include weakness policy. I love the sound of it on paper with the use of Libero to force activation on super-effective hits but in practice it’s likely very bad. haven’t seen a single one yet either



order of sets imo should be:

  1. standard libero
  2. blaze
  3. scarf
First set was a combination of two sets so thats why some things look weird, but I think a consensus is split them up now so I've split them up. For second set, don't think liechi will end up being too hot but i've slashed it anyways. Not gonna delete any set (so WP still up) till DLC comes out anyways since this is just a brainstorm.
 
IkaToday at 12:59 PM
is liechi actually going to be any good, those sorts of strategies seem a tad gimmicky because they are obvious (I mean you have to sub 3 times) and unlike last generation where you couldnt really break a sub and get faster (I guess char-x flame charge), max airstream is everywhere and makes you waste all that effort for nothing. It hasn't been used on cinderace or inteleon and torrent/blaze has been around forever.(edited)



[1:02 PM]
I think using sucker punch where cinderace is probably mostly gonna be choice scarf is pretty questionable even to the point it might be worth scrapping since 1. it would be faster than dragapult anyways, 2. sucker punch is like the most awful move to lock into. I guess you can use it for max darkness
 
Some updates for Cinderace

1. Added Zen Headbutt as a move option for Cinderace. Its actually really really good at beating some of its checks and the STAB priority nullifying through Max Mindstorm is great.
2. Got rid of the Blaze set, and added Counter to the Libero set. Blaze just isn't worth it right now, Libero can do the sash counter just fine while still having STAB sucker punch to injure the incoming pokemon.
3. Added Lycanroc to teammates.
 
I do not think Counter should be slashed with High Jump Kick. Sash Counter sets usually run Pyro Ball / High Jump Kick / Sucker Punch / Counter. I am not a big fan of U-turn on non-choice sets. Your switch-ins can be powered through with Max moves especially if you can accumulate some boosts and Max Flutterby does not really increase your coverage, though the effect is pretty nice. Maybe the move slashes could be something like:

-Pyro Ball
-High Jump Kick
-Sucker Punch / Zen Headbutt / Iron Head
- Bounce / Iron Head / Counter

U-turn can be relegated to a mention in the set comments.
 
I do not think Counter should be slashed with High Jump Kick. Sash Counter sets usually run Pyro Ball / High Jump Kick / Sucker Punch / Counter. I am not a big fan of U-turn on non-choice sets. Your switch-ins can be powered through with Max moves especially if you can accumulate some boosts and Max Flutterby does not really increase your coverage, though the effect is pretty nice. Maybe the move slashes could be something like:

-Pyro Ball
-High Jump Kick
-Sucker Punch / Zen Headbutt / Iron Head
- Bounce / Iron Head / Counter

U-turn can be relegated to a mention in the set comments.
I think you are right on with these suggestions, I've edited with these recommendations, thanks!
 

Psynergy

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I know Theorymon said he was going to go through this the other day but I guess I'll be the first instead. Now that I've had enough to see how this thing is looking for the meta I'm ready to try and push this one forward, since obviously it's the most important one.

First set looks good, Sash Counter in theory could be its own set but it feels more like just a tool of the general offensive sets they all run so probably not worth it unless Counter sets really pick up enough to distinguish them. As for the partners section, I think Tangrowth probably hasn't aged well enough at this point to be listed as a notable Grass-type partner, doesn't even break to 150 usage according to what Pikalytics is pulling from the Home usage (that is, it doesn't even have a numbered usage rank).

Otherwise, this looks good to me as is, consider this QC 1/2.
 
Cinderace is pretty straightforward so I don't have too much to add here, especially since I agree with the current slashes, but a few minor things of note:

First, add P2 to the HJK targets list alongside Lapras/Lax--you might even remove Lax as it has fallen off for the moment, although I expect it to rebound a bit later on. But for now P2 is the most important of any of those targets, and Lax is by far the least important of the three.

Second, note in both places where you talk about GMax Fireball that it also cuts through Sturdy. While Magnezone only use it just over 1/4 of the time, Skarm is also present, and of course Fireball is SE against both and also helps Ace delete anyone trying to make SkarmBliss work in this meta.

I like the current general team options, but another quick note for why Grass types tend to pair so well with it is that Water and Ground types tend to be two of the most successful typings at avoiding being hit SE by Cinderace's best moves, so something like Rillaboom to punch through those checks helps tremendously. Rhyperior also fits in that since despite being hit SE by HJK it tends to tank it fairly well and easily kill back, so again a check is helpful to the Ace user. Toxapex, Corsola-G, and the very rare but annoying Pyukumuku (honestly you'll probably be fine not mentioning Pyuku, it's not especially relevant at #89 in usage rn) can also potentially slow Cinderace down, but these super defensive checks to Ace generally get bullied by any decently bulky Sub user or, in the case of the two far more relevant former mons, most Plot setup sweepers as well, so stuff like Hydreigon and Togekiss might be considered as partners on some teams for downing those.

Otherwise I don't think there's that much else to say. Cinderace shows that you don't have to be the most complicated thing around to rule the meta, you just have to combine a lot of very good traits into a simple but devastating package. QC 2/2
 

Theorymon

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So I realize this is already QC checked, but there's something I'd like to happen that I want other QC members and you to consider.

I'm wondering if we should give counter-sash its own set. Urshifu is already getting its own set like that (well for water at least, but dark should get it too whenever someone gets around it), and Counter has about 9% usage. With Sash having 11% usage as well, I wouldn't be surprised if this was correlated.

It also cleans up the set slashes, which are a bit messy in Cinderace's 1st set. Granted, as me and greil were DMing eachother about this, I think Cinderace's first set probably needs a disclaimer that its a very customizable mon in general, sorta similar to Greninja was last gen.

Im thinking something like this for Sash Counter

[SET]
name: Counter Sash
move 1: Pyro Ball
move 2: High Jump Kick
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Counter
item: Focus Sash
ability: Libero
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Pretty clean set, doesn't even need a whole lot of comments imo because what it does is pretty simple and concise.
 

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GP 1/1
[SET]
name: Libero
move 1: Pyro Ball
move 2: High Jump Kick
move 3: Sucker Punch / Zen Headbutt / Iron Head
move 4: Bounce / Iron Head / Counter
item: Life Orb / Lum Berry / Focus Sash
ability: Libero
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
in-battle alt: Gmax

[SET COMMENTS]
* Gigantamax Libero Cinderace serves as a fast multi-faceted wallbreaker and sweeper with access to a plethora of powerful STAB coverage options.

* Pyro Ball allows Cinderace to reliably check Ferrothorn and other Grass- or Steel-types without fear of taking damage from missing. It also turns into Gmax Fireball when Dynamaxed, an incredibly powerful Max Move that ignores opposing abilities, helping Cinderace take down Thick Fat, Disguise, and Sturdy Pokemon in particular.

* High Jump Kick is needed to beat Porygon2, Lapras, and Snorlax, which would otherwise give Cinderace trouble. When Dynamaxed After Dynamax, Max Knuckle guarantees hits against Protect stalling, prevents miss recoil against Ghost-types, and boosts Cinderace's Attack to near-unwallable (AH) levels.

* Sucker Punch gives Cinderace access to powerful priority, allowing it to check many variants of Dragapult, who can be OHKO'd OHKOing variants without bulk.

* Zen Headbutt gives Cinderace the ability to hit Toxapex well (RC) while also potentially giving itself setting up Psychic Terrain to avoid getting revenge killed by priority attacks.

* Iron Head makes Cinderace an effective Fairy-type check, OHKOing offensive Togekiss (RC) and OHKOs as well as taking out Clefable when Dynamaxed during Dynamax.

* Bounce gives Cinderace access to Max Airstream, which helps it sweep weakened teams.

* Counter is an alternative move choice to be used with Focus Sash to bait in take advantage of physical attacks from otherwise solid checks such as Rhyperior, Hippowdon, and opposing Cinderace.

* U-turn can be used to maintain momentum on a predicted switch-in, such as Toxapex or Hippowdon, and can reduce damage output from special attacking threats through Max Flutterby.

* Life Orb is the standard item of choice, giving Cinderace immense damage output, and is often worth the small recoil damage, as it allows Cinderace to OHKO much of the metagame.

* Lum Berry can be used to defeat status-inducing Dragapult variants and play around Yawn spam.

* Focus Sash helps alleviate Cinderace's mediocre bulk and allows it to revenge kill fast opponents who foes that will not die faint to Sucker Punch.


[SET]
name: Choiced Choice
move 1: High Jump Kick
move 2: U-turn
move 3: Pyro Ball / Sucker Punch
move 4: Iron Head / Gunk Shot / Sucker Punch
item: Choice Scarf / Choice Band
ability: Libero
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
in-battle alt: Gmax

[SET COMMENTS]

* High Jump Kick is required on the a Choice-locked (AH) set, being Cinderace's most effective high-damage (AH) move.

* U-turn is always needed for choice attacking Choice item Cinderace, allowing it to pivot out of bad matchups and scouting opposing Pokemon without committing to a Choice lock.

* Pyro Ball is primary option in the third slot as the best coverage move against Corviknight, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn, and is the primary 3rd move choice.

* Either Iron Head or Gunk Shot can be used in the last slot, dramatically improving Cinderace's matchup against the likes of Togekiss and Primarina.

* Sucker Punch is not a primary slash here due to faces awkwardness with the Choice lock, but the move can still be considered to improve the matchup against Dragapult.

* Zen Headbutt is an option to beat Toxapex; (SC) however, its it's generally better to use that move in combination with a Dynamax sweeper variant.

* Gigantamax Cinderace is generally chosen in order to get more immediate damage output with Gmax Fireball than Max Flare, as well as being able to hit through Mimikyu's Disguise and ignore Snorlax's Thick Fat.

General Team Options
=================

Due to Cinderace's high flexibility with Libero, it can be used effectively with a wide variety of teammate options. However, since it initially starts with as a Fire-type, defensively it should still be considered alongside Water- and Grass-type Pokemon. Grass-types in particular help cover Water- and Ground-types, which Cinderace struggles to hit super effectively, (AC) and can switch in against these well. Also, due to Cinderace's lower bulk, it is prone to being revenge killed by Focus Sash users, so Stealth Rock setters can be helpful for their chip damage. Finally, due to the existence of certain dedicated physical walls such as Galarian Corsola and Toxapex, Cinderace can be paired with special attacking stallbreakers who that can abuse these take advantage of passive Pokemon dedicated physical walls such as Galarian Corsola and Toxapex with Taunt, Substitute, and/or Nasty Plot.

* Water-type Partners: :lapras: :primarina: :urshifu-rapidstrike: (just : urshifu :, they have the same minisprite) :azumarill: :rotom-wash:

* Grass-type Partners: :rillaboom: :ferrothorn: :amoonguss:

* Stealth Rock Setters: :hippowdon: :clefable: :excadrill: :terrakion: :lycanroc-dusk: :skarmory: :tyranitar:

* Special Stallbreakers: :hydreigon: :togekiss: :porygon-z:


i've seen the above post but figured i'd check this rn since the queue post said it was high prio, assuming you guys will just spin off countersash to its own thread if needed
 
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GP 1/1
[SET]
name: Libero
move 1: Pyro Ball
move 2: High Jump Kick
move 3: Sucker Punch / Zen Headbutt / Iron Head
move 4: Bounce / Iron Head / Counter
item: Life Orb / Lum Berry / Focus Sash
ability: Libero
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
in-battle alt: Gmax

[SET COMMENTS]
* Gigantamax Libero Cinderace serves as a fast multi-faceted wallbreaker and sweeper with access to a plethora of powerful STAB coverage options.

* Pyro Ball allows Cinderace to reliably check Ferrothorn and other Grass- or Steel-types without fear of taking damage from missing. It also turns into Gmax Fireball when Dynamaxed, an incredibly powerful Max Move that ignores opposing abilities, helping Cinderace take down Thick Fat, Disguise, and Sturdy Pokemon in particular.

* High Jump Kick is needed to beat Porygon2, Lapras, and Snorlax, which would otherwise give Cinderace trouble. When Dynamaxed After Dynamax, Max Knuckle guarantees hits against Protect stalling, prevents miss recoil against Ghost-types, and boosts Cinderace's Attack to near-unwallable (AH) levels.

* Sucker Punch gives Cinderace access to powerful priority, allowing it to check many variants of Dragapult, who can be OHKO'd OHKOing variants without bulk.

* Zen Headbutt gives Cinderace the ability to hit Toxapex well (RC) while also potentially giving itself setting up Psychic Terrain to avoid getting revenge killed by priority attacks.

* Iron Head makes Cinderace an effective Fairy-type check, OHKOing offensive Togekiss (RC) and OHKOs as well as taking out Clefable when Dynamaxed during Dynamax.

* Bounce gives Cinderace access to Max Airstream, which helps it sweep weakened teams.

* Counter is an alternative move choice to be used with Focus Sash to bait in take advantage of physical attacks from otherwise solid checks such as Rhyperior, Hippowdon, and opposing Cinderace.

* U-turn can be used to maintain momentum on a predicted switch-in, such as Toxapex or Hippowdon, and can reduce damage output from special attacking threats through Max Flutterby.

* Life Orb is the standard item of choice, giving Cinderace immense damage output, and is often worth the small recoil damage, as it allows Cinderace to OHKO much of the metagame.

* Lum Berry can be used to defeat status-inducing Dragapult variants and play around Yawn spam.

* Focus Sash helps alleviate Cinderace's mediocre bulk and allows it to revenge kill fast opponents who foes that will not die faint to Sucker Punch.


[SET]
name: Choiced Choice
move 1: High Jump Kick
move 2: U-turn
move 3: Pyro Ball / Sucker Punch
move 4: Iron Head / Gunk Shot / Sucker Punch
item: Choice Scarf / Choice Band
ability: Libero
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
in-battle alt: Gmax

[SET COMMENTS]

* High Jump Kick is required on the a Choice-locked (AH) set, being Cinderace's most effective high-damage (AH) move.

* U-turn is always needed for choice attacking Choice item Cinderace, allowing it to pivot out of bad matchups and scouting opposing Pokemon without committing to a Choice lock.

* Pyro Ball is primary option in the third slot as the best coverage move against Corviknight, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn, and is the primary 3rd move choice.

* Either Iron Head or Gunk Shot can be used in the last slot, dramatically improving Cinderace's matchup against the likes of Togekiss and Primarina.

* Sucker Punch is not a primary slash here due to faces awkwardness with the Choice lock, but the move can still be considered to improve the matchup against Dragapult.

* Zen Headbutt is an option to beat Toxapex; (SC) however, its it's generally better to use that move in combination with a Dynamax sweeper variant.

* Gigantamax Cinderace is generally chosen in order to get more immediate damage output with Gmax Fireball than Max Flare, as well as being able to hit through Mimikyu's Disguise and ignore Snorlax's Thick Fat.

General Team Options
=================

Due to Cinderace's high flexibility with Libero, it can be used effectively with a wide variety of teammate options. However, since it initially starts with as a Fire-type, defensively it should still be considered alongside Water- and Grass-type Pokemon. Grass-types in particular help cover Water- and Ground-types, which Cinderace struggles to hit super effectively, (AC) and can switch in against these well. Also, due to Cinderace's lower bulk, it is prone to being revenge killed by Focus Sash users, so Stealth Rock setters can be helpful for their chip damage. Finally, due to the existence of certain dedicated physical walls such as Galarian Corsola and Toxapex, Cinderace can be paired with special attacking stallbreakers who that can abuse these take advantage of passive Pokemon dedicated physical walls such as Galarian Corsola and Toxapex with Taunt, Substitute, and/or Nasty Plot.

* Water-type Partners: :lapras: :primarina: :urshifu-rapidstrike: (just : urshifu :, they have the same minisprite) :azumarill: :rotom-wash:

* Grass-type Partners: :rillaboom: :ferrothorn: :amoonguss:

* Stealth Rock Setters: :hippowdon: :clefable: :excadrill: :terrakion: :lycanroc-dusk: :skarmory: :tyranitar:

* Special Stallbreakers: :hydreigon: :togekiss: :porygon-z:


i've seen the above post but figured i'd check this rn since the queue post said it was high prio, assuming you guys will just spin off countersash to its own thread if needed
Thank you for this check, and the other checks! Will implement over the weekend. Also in regards to theorymon's post, we've discussed it and weren't in any consensus (counter sash is 9% usage right now, although it does make the set look cleaner). Since its already been checked by you, Im sure we will agree to keep the current Libero set as is.
 

Psynergy

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I went ahead and uploaded this as is, nobody seemed opposed to Sash Counter being its own set but nobody else was super vocal about it either so the discussion just kinda faded. Sash Counter is definitely good though so if we end up branching it off into its own set we can do that some other time.
 

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