-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Cloyster
- Thread starter DDRMaster
- Start date
I used it in a few Wi-Fi battles. As long as you take care of priority users and fast scarfers ( max speed 115s will always outspeed with scarf) cloyster goes through teams.
I dont know if this might be an issue but I guess cloyster will get more opportunities to spin now. Because a switch into a spinblocker could mean a free Shell Break set-up and even burungeru doesnt enjoy being hit by a +2 rock blast
I dont know if this might be an issue but I guess cloyster will get more opportunities to spin now. Because a switch into a spinblocker could mean a free Shell Break set-up and even burungeru doesnt enjoy being hit by a +2 rock blast
Priority is not as good a check for Cloyster as you seem to think. Using 140 HP, 0 DEF EVs (standard life orb for 4th gen), -1 defense after shell break, taking Stealth Rocks into effect, a Choice Band Technician Bullet Punch from Scizor is a solid 2HKO. This is using an outdatted and inappropraite sprad, and even more with White Herb taken into account, it becomes even less of a problem. Technician Choice Band Breloom does even less.
Choice Scarf Garchomp is OHKOed by a Cloyster with without any boost. After +2 provided by a single shellbreak , not even a weakness berry can save Garchomp. You are going to need a decently fast scarfer too. Something around the 100 range, and it also can't be weak to Ice Shard, thus rulling out the dragons.
Snorlax is amongst your best bets in dealing with Cloyster. You need bulky Pokemon who can do something back who are not weak to Ice or Water attacks, so Hippowdown will not cut it. Ditto is also a good choice, but then again, its Ditto, what doesn't it check.
Choice Scarf Garchomp is OHKOed by a Cloyster with without any boost. After +2 provided by a single shellbreak , not even a weakness berry can save Garchomp. You are going to need a decently fast scarfer too. Something around the 100 range, and it also can't be weak to Ice Shard, thus rulling out the dragons.
Snorlax is amongst your best bets in dealing with Cloyster. You need bulky Pokemon who can do something back who are not weak to Ice or Water attacks, so Hippowdown will not cut it. Ditto is also a good choice, but then again, its Ditto, what doesn't it check.
Or you could just have a special based Toxicroak or Lucario Vacuum Wave it into oblivion. Both of which who regularly can and will run them.
Even Toxicroak without Life Orb, Expert Belt or any boosts already hits Cloyster for like 93% damage average easily, Lucario outright 1hko's Cloyster.
Taken from the OP:
Priority is not necesarily going to kill Cloyster. It resists Aqua Jet and Ice Shard and is hit nuetrally by Bullet Punch, Extremespeed, and Sucker Punch. Extremespeed and Sucker Punch will only ever do more damage than Scizor's Bullet Punch if they're used by something with STAB on them or used by Deoxys-A. Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave are really the only priority moves that are gaurenteed to take it out.
Priority is not necesarily going to kill Cloyster. It resists Aqua Jet and Ice Shard and is hit nuetrally by Bullet Punch, Extremespeed, and Sucker Punch. Extremespeed and Sucker Punch will only ever do more damage than Scizor's Bullet Punch if they're used by something with STAB on them or used by Deoxys-A. Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave are really the only priority moves that are gaurenteed to take it out.
looks like thunder wave and a strong special attack is the only way to stop a sweep if your priority revenge is taken out
What? According to my calculations, technician choice Band Breloom should OHKO it with mach punch after shell break and steal rocks. Actually, it can potentially do so without choice band, with a good damage roll.
Not as much as you might think, if Cloyster doesn't carry Rock Blast. Both Ditto and the real Cloyster would be forced to wear each other down via shell blade, and the real cloyster might even be able to boost further via additional shell breaks (though probably no more than one). Then Cloyster is hitting first, and significantly harder - and if it has leftovers instead of life orb, then it's only losing at absolute max 14% HP per turn, if ditto gets perfect damage rolls. This increases to 23% HP per turn, if ditto is getting max damage rolls, after the second shell break. Meanwhile, Cloyster does well over a third of Ditto's HP in one hit. Keep in mind that Ditto has actually even less HP than Cloyster, taking into account the 120 HP EVs that you mentioned.
EDIT: Wait, shit, I forgot that Ditto copies the attack boost too. Well, with life orb, Cloyster 2HKOs Ditto. Ditto, on the other hand, does not 2HKO Cloyster, meaning that a life orb Cloyster without rock blast still is not countered by Ditto.
In light of this, I am probably going to run ice shard over rock blast, as that should pick off Breloom and co. quite nicely. Scizor is taken out by shell blade by life orb Cloyster, and shell blade + ice shard by leftovers Cloyster.
Assuming adamant Cloyster that's +Speed SCARFED base 100+ or neutral SCARFED base 110+.
IMO, that's a pretty high water mark esp. considering that a number of those would-be revenge killers are either frail or weak to ice and thus doomed if Cloyster's packing Ice Shard.
So obviously, powerful/fast attacks can kill it but the attacker has to, well, not die first.
Icicle Spear would rip through Sash after it activates once, right? Otherwise, anything + Sash would venge on Cloy.
I'm planning to use this in Uber =P See how well it does. I could use Ice Shard for Scarf Shaymin-s and just to revenge kill in general though its a bit too weak without a boost.
According to Serebii over 100 Pokemon have over 319 maximum speed so there's plenty of selection. Of course Cloyster could have Ice Shard, but then it has to sacrifice rock or water coverage. If anything it shows Cloyster can't cover everything at once, and so is more than counterable =)
You might want to check poke who actually see use rather then ones that just exist...
Gorebyss (with Shell Break) in the rain does more damage than Cloyster. ;) Using Gorebyss over Cloyster in Ubers is really a no-brainer because of Rain everywhere (and it has a better defensive typing than Cloyster). Literally nothing can revenge Gorebyss outside of priority in the rain, while Cloyster is easily revenged by CS Palkia, Shaymin, and others. It can outspeed CS Palkia with a +speed nature, but I wouldn't do that, since Cloyster would need as much power as possible.
I was the one who did the damage calculations. I was testing for Max Attack Ev-ed, Adamant natured Cloyster with Life Orb, and it looks like it's not necessary to run max attack in OU. But even then, after a Shell Break with max speed EVs and +Spe nature, it will only hit 524 Speed, while 110 Base Speed with + Spe nature and max speed EVs with a scarf hits 525 speed, it's a little disappointing.
I'd say it's still very dangerous as even with Min HP and Def, assuming without a Shell Break and Stealth Rock, a Choice Scarfed Infernape's (64 Atk EVs) Close Combat could not OHKO it, dealing 70.5% - 84.6% damage.
To use it in Ubers, you need to be careful with Choice Scarfed Shaymin Sky Forme, you can deal with that by running Ice Shard in it. But other than that, there isn't anything else thats a threat if it's running max Spe with +Spe Nature.
To SMB:
Cloyster can run Max Spe with +Spe nature, if Stealth Rock support is present. Although it cannot K.O. 252 HP Kyogre safely even with SR (doing only 78% - 92.8% with Rock Blast, from a Cloyster after a Shell Break with 252 Attack EVs with neutral nature), it would enable it to outrun Deoxys Speed Forme, and would still be able to OHKO most of the Ubers, even with running Ice Shard in it's moveset (Shell Break/Rock Blast/Icicle Spear/Ice Shard).
And for Gorebyss, sure it will outspeed everything in rain, but don't forget about Rayquaza's Air Lock and Groudon's Drought, they render Rain useless with the former having ExtremeSpeed and the latter reducing the damage of water moves with Sun.
I'd say it's still very dangerous as even with Min HP and Def, assuming without a Shell Break and Stealth Rock, a Choice Scarfed Infernape's (64 Atk EVs) Close Combat could not OHKO it, dealing 70.5% - 84.6% damage.
To use it in Ubers, you need to be careful with Choice Scarfed Shaymin Sky Forme, you can deal with that by running Ice Shard in it. But other than that, there isn't anything else thats a threat if it's running max Spe with +Spe Nature.
To SMB:
Cloyster can run Max Spe with +Spe nature, if Stealth Rock support is present. Although it cannot K.O. 252 HP Kyogre safely even with SR (doing only 78% - 92.8% with Rock Blast, from a Cloyster after a Shell Break with 252 Attack EVs with neutral nature), it would enable it to outrun Deoxys Speed Forme, and would still be able to OHKO most of the Ubers, even with running Ice Shard in it's moveset (Shell Break/Rock Blast/Icicle Spear/Ice Shard).
And for Gorebyss, sure it will outspeed everything in rain, but don't forget about Rayquaza's Air Lock and Groudon's Drought, they render Rain useless with the former having ExtremeSpeed and the latter reducing the damage of water moves with Sun.
Hmmm...good point. I am a little concerned about Cloyster's vulnerability to Bullet Punch and the fact that it can't OHKO steels like Jirachi and Metagross (assuming a moveset of Rock Blast, Icicle Spear, Ice Shard, Shell Break).
I also question the use of Ice Shard. Is it really worth it to have a move for just one Pokemon (Rayquaza)? Hydro Pump has more utility and hits annoying steels harder.
I guess Gorebyss and Cloyster have their pluses and minuses. I wonder how they would work on the same team. O_O;;
Well, to run them both on the same team would be difficult, assuming you want a good start-off with Kyogre's Rain, you would have 3 water types that's vulnerable to Thunder, and I don't think Ice Shard can hit Rayquaza as now ExtremeSpeed is a +2 priority. Having Ice Shard can protect you from frail Scarf users, and yes, having Hydro Pump can hit Steels hard. If you can deal with Steel types, like having a counter-measure like Magnezone, then it would be no problem to run Ice Shard. It's just a matter of preferences.
If you really hate Steels that much and don't want to use something like Magnezone, you can use HP Ground which only reduces one IV of Sp.A and Sp.D
EDIT: Choice Scarf Jirachi (252 Attack EVs +Spe nature Jolly) only does 51.5% - 60.6% with ThunderPunch on 0 HP after a drop in it's defense, which, comes from Shell Break, HP Ground 2HKOs it (with 0 EVs invested in Sp.A), there shouldn't be a problem in K.O.ing it if your Cloyster had no prior damage and if there isn't SR in the field and if it isn't a Sp.Atker (assuming Cloyster is holding Life Orb).
If you really hate Steels that much and don't want to use something like Magnezone, you can use HP Ground which only reduces one IV of Sp.A and Sp.D
EDIT: Choice Scarf Jirachi (252 Attack EVs +Spe nature Jolly) only does 51.5% - 60.6% with ThunderPunch on 0 HP after a drop in it's defense, which, comes from Shell Break, HP Ground 2HKOs it (with 0 EVs invested in Sp.A), there shouldn't be a problem in K.O.ing it if your Cloyster had no prior damage and if there isn't SR in the field and if it isn't a Sp.Atker (assuming Cloyster is holding Life Orb).
Unless they get more common then they were... Not really.
Since there isn't a single Pokemon in the game that can realistically be expected to counter all 491 other Pokemon in the game, two, unless they're pretty much mandatory for a good team (which Empoleon and Poliwrath are not) are not worth sacrificing coverage (and STAB at that, since Hydro Pump is probably more expendable than Rock Blast).
I run Empoleon as a Stealth Rock Lead, so I wouldn't fear Cloyster with it, but "Anti-Cloyster" isn't reason enough for it to be in a team, I don't think, or for Cloyster to need to worry too much about countering it.