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Competitor and Arceus
- Thread starter umbarsc
- Start date
^ Whats so offensive about it? It actually happened.
^I don't see why that is a flame, he's just making a point, that a schoolteacher was jailed for allowing the schoolchildren in her class to name a bear Mohammed. People can call their kids mohammed, it's fine, but to call an inanimate object, of which people all around the world adore it's a big no-no?
The direct move coding doesn't prevent them from being together at all and maybe this is where you're confused. If I had a pokemon that could breed with Crobat and learned both Hypnosis and Nasty Plot, the resulting Zubat would have both those moves. That's how breeding works. If the father has moves that match the egg moves of the female pokemon, the baby pokemon will be hatched with those moves. There's no code limiting against having the two moves at the same time, it's just that there's no pokemon to breed with Crobat that has both of the moves at the same time which makes it impossible.
The argument that you "can't catch a pokemon yet" applies only when you're looking to simulate a WiFi battle as much as possible. You obviously can't battle with something on WiFi if you can't catch it in the game. Arceus doesn't exist legally in the WiFi environment so the argument is that it shouldn't exist on our replication of WiFi either. The two methods of battling should be synonymous since one is a replication of the other. Obviously that hasn't worked out in practice but that's the reason why it's an issue to begin with.
Well, technically if you slave away long enough, Nintendo will just release the ticket and this entire argument will be moot.
Okay, guys. Arceus first can be gotten in Japanese games via glitch. Secondly, we sholudn't wait until Nintendo releases a ticket to get it if the ticket system is programmed into the game. Wish Salamence and Wish Blissey are not, and thus they were only allowed after it was possible to get one.
Basically, suck it up, stop whining, and get a fucking counter.
The E4-glitch does not grant acces to Arceus, the azure pipe event sets the maptiles and warp location so you can't get there without that event.
I have a feeling that MissingNo is in there to prevent the game from segfaulting on you, as opposed to being a debug tool. In Red/Green, MissingNo would crash the game if caught or if battles were done. In addition, it would screw around with your items (infinite Rare candies anyone?)
Just goes to show how volitile programming is. Who knew that a friggen pokemon could change your items if encountered? Again, I must emphisize the need of testing in programming. And when you look at it from that perspective, then it makes sense to have as many testing elements as possible in a game.
Ex. If Arceus was the first pokemon to be programmed into the game, then many elements of the game could be programmed while the artists worked on other pokemon, while other programmers worked on other parts of the engine, implementing attacks and so forth.
Unless you can prove a connection between the Arceus debate and that supposition, you have made the Logical Fallacy of the Slippery Slope.
Do remember, if there is a 95% chance that a domnino will hit another domino, then on the average only 20 dominoes will fall. Even when _every_ element of a slippery slope is "possible" or even plausable (indeed, 95% sure is pretty damn sure), the conclusion may not hold in practice.
Nintendo has also never before made 492 pokemon in a single game, which would make testing more difficult.
A tester would _have_ to be able to get every single plate in game if they were to easily test the engine post-development. Further "mysteries revolving pokemon" holds a particular relevance to the storyline. The plates would indeed hold fine if Arceus were never released, and make a nice equip.
Sadly, its the truth.
A British teacher has been arrested in Sudan for allegedly insulting Islam by naming a teddy bear Mohammed, taken as a reference to Islam's prophet and founder, the Sudan Media Center says.
Again, I would like to emphisize, there really are an infinite number of possibilities here. And until nintendo actually releases Arceus, we won't know if he is a real pokemon or not. Period.
Missingno. is completely harmless fyi.It's a placefiller, it's in most of the slots where there aren't any pokémon.It multiplies the sixth item quantifier because the game has to set a flag past the pokémon data space because Missingno.'s dex number is higher than 151.
Arceus on the contrary occupies only one slot, there have been some glitches found in DP using AR, it's more likely one of those is the debug pokémon or the placefiller.
Er... the first part was just a quip about what the guy I was quoting was saying. (though, I do hope it turns out, because it could ease some of the Emerald move tutor problems we're having and the lack there of)
The second part, eh... you could say that about a legendary in each generation. On top of that, by your guide lines, then shouldn't Shaymin also be completly knocked out of the race untill its released as theres no proof its a real pokemon, either?
But still, this is just as slippery a slope either way. until the 5th gen starts and its CONFIRMED to be false, theres no way that it shouldn't be simulated (because its simulated and people would probably like to see how it works before it actualy gets released)
Also, I'm surprised no one's defended the argument not using the pokemon itself but the items instead. In Red/Blue, for example, there WAS an ITEM that let you SURF.
Before moving on. Let me assure you that you have my respect and I am treating your argument with as much dignity as I can. I however, will press every point as a good debater should. Nothing personal, just my style of debating.
There is only one distinction that matters to this line of thinking: what is accessable in the game. Event pokemon are included of course, which is why we have Wish Gallades and so forth.
And here is where I draw an unambiguous line of legal and illegal. The stuff about Arceus and "test pokemon" was on a related topic of "future releases". That is, whether or not we should allow pokemon that have not been released yet.
Shaymin on the other hand, falls in a separate catagory, because he is accesable without hacking the game. In Japanese gamepacks, Shaymin and Darkrai can be caught using an in-game glitch. Unlike Arceus, he is avaliable now, without ever touching an AR.
On the contrary. Because you cannot prove Arceus to be a real pokemon, it should not be used until you can gather up the evidence necessary to prove it. Similarly, Thunderpunch Poison Heal Breloom isn't a real pokemon until you note a way to bring him over from emerald, or teach him thunderpunch in D/P.
Fortunately, because of how the lines in this argument are drawn, we can wait for either an official event, or an Arceus glitch to be found in any release (American, Japanese, whatever). I don't like the argument in that sense... but it is the general concensus here that in-game glitches are legit. That is why emerald cloning and GTS cloning is widespread at the moment. Further, we wouldn't ever really know if say... Softboiled Celfable is a glitch or not. That issue is just too deep.
There is only one distinction that matters to this line of thinking: what is accessable in the game. Event pokemon are included of course, which is why we have Wish Gallades and so forth.
And here is where I draw an unambiguous line of legal and illegal. The stuff about Arceus and "test pokemon" was on a related topic of "future releases". That is, whether or not we should allow pokemon that have not been released yet.
Shaymin on the other hand, falls in a separate catagory, because he is accesable without hacking the game. In Japanese gamepacks, Shaymin and Darkrai can be caught using an in-game glitch. Unlike Arceus, he is avaliable now, without ever touching an AR.
On the contrary. Because you cannot prove Arceus to be a real pokemon, it should not be used until you can gather up the evidence necessary to prove it. Similarly, Thunderpunch Poison Heal Breloom isn't a real pokemon until you note a way to bring him over from emerald, or teach him thunderpunch in D/P.
Fortunately, because of how the lines in this argument are drawn, we can wait for either an official event, or an Arceus glitch to be found in any release (American, Japanese, whatever). I don't like the argument in that sense... but it is the general concensus here that in-game glitches are legit. That is why emerald cloning and GTS cloning is widespread at the moment. Further, we wouldn't ever really know if say... Softboiled Celfable is a glitch or not. That issue is just too deep.
Theres actualy a possibility that Nintendo MIGHT MAYBE answer our question if we were to e-mail them and ask, but I'm simply TOO LAZY (honest truth) to do that.
Afterall, in one of the FAQs at pokemon.com they DO waste time stating that Rotom ISN'T a legendary.
And no, I mean you no disrespect either. Anything that keeps me enthralled and thinking when i'm out of school is good for my brain :0)
the only way to get arceus is currently via a hacking device (i know we're talking a simulator here but wait)
now, would we allow belly drum aqua jet azumarills, which can onyl be obtained by hacking or a glitch on shoddy? no we wouldnt.
back on netbattle, would we have accepted a sky attack kanghaskahn? no. why not, its available in game, as a glitch.
would we allow Head smash aerodactyl? no. but the only way to obtain head smash dactyl is via hacking, just liek arceus.
edit: lol got move and trait confused
before the argument is brought up, cloning isnt the same. cloning enables simplification of obtaining items and suchlike, and has no direct effect on battle. it just speeds up the realisation of the battle team.
now, would we allow belly drum aqua jet azumarills, which can onyl be obtained by hacking or a glitch on shoddy? no we wouldnt.
back on netbattle, would we have accepted a sky attack kanghaskahn? no. why not, its available in game, as a glitch.
would we allow Head smash aerodactyl? no. but the only way to obtain head smash dactyl is via hacking, just liek arceus.
edit: lol got move and trait confused
before the argument is brought up, cloning isnt the same. cloning enables simplification of obtaining items and suchlike, and has no direct effect on battle. it just speeds up the realisation of the battle team.
You were making some sense up until your last argument.
Anyways, I'm not going to argue for or against on this topic, but I will point out that I hate this kind of argument for not allowing it. Comparing a Pokemon's availability in general to the illegal move combos of others does not make a good argument IMO. Gamefreak made those combos illegal for a reason, and allowing them would significantly change the way they intended those Pokemon to be and their usefulness in battle. Arceus on the other hand is currently used in full compliance with the movepool Gamefreak intended it to have, so there is no discrepancy between how it is used now and how Gamefreak intended it to be.
The only argument I'd be willing to accept against so far is the possibility that they never intended to release it at all. As far as this is concerned all I'll say is that this has never really been done before, and when I look at Arceus I see all the hallmarks of a competitive Uber Pokemon that has been programmed as seriously as any other Pokemon.
EDIT: Also, I wouldn't mind playing Ubers with Arceus banned, so long as I was aware of the rule before even building my team, for the sole reason that Arceus is such a big threat in Ubers that any Uber team has to be built with serious consideration of it. Preparing your team for a non-existant threat would clearly put you at a disadvantage against anyone who built a team without considering said threat for obvious reasons.
I sort of agree with that, i think that gamefreak is intending to eventually let arceus to out to the public with the unique move set they gave it, and by unique i mean it doesn't know everything like mew does. Imagine if they had given arceus tuant? that would truly be scary but gamefreak didn't and they probably knew it would make it broken since it can't be phazed or burned on the swords dance set, the calm mind set with tuant is almost too terrifying, and with his 120 defenses he laughs at giratinas or blissey's attacks, but why would they do that if they intended it to just be a debug pokemon and never allowed in competitive play? Why not give it every tm if its not going to be on wifi?
Now, i don't disagree that arceus is the ultimate debug pokemon since it has 120 in all stats and has a 100BP signiture move that becomes any type in the game, but i think that people should suck up the fact arceus is probably going to be released and is legit, or wait for that new setting on shoddy where it bans AR only pokemon.
Now, i don't disagree that arceus is the ultimate debug pokemon since it has 120 in all stats and has a 100BP signiture move that becomes any type in the game, but i think that people should suck up the fact arceus is probably going to be released and is legit, or wait for that new setting on shoddy where it bans AR only pokemon.
Exactly. And until that eventuality becomes a reality, Arceus is illegal.
Can it be used on Shoddy?
Did this battle take place on shoddy?
Was the match played under the Uber/no restrictions format?
If you answered yes to these questions, Arceus is legal unless someone asked for said clause otherwise.
Talking about whether Arceus is legal over wifi/etc is a moot point, circular logic, and varies from personal opinion to the next as there is no truth that makes using Arceus right or wrong. Saying otherwise just makes you look like a jackass.
If you don't want to battle Arceus, stipulate that before an Uber match. You may have less battles, but you won't have to have off topic pointless discussions like this in the future.
Exactly. While there's no code that specifically separates the two moves, there's also no coding which allows them to be together. By "coding" I'm obviously referring to the pokemon moveset and breeding capabilities programmed into the game. I'm also totally aware of how breeding works, thanks.
Shoddy doesn't simulate WiFi, rather it simulates the battle environment found in the games. That's largely irrelevant, though; Shoddy doesn't concern itself with the "catching" aspect of Pokemon and only with the "battling" aspect, at which point I see no reason to disallow a Pokemon simply because it can't be caught yet in the game.
I could see how Obi could make a similar argument for TPunch Posion Heal Breloom and all other illegal movesets, but imo its an argument that holds no merit. Moves a Pokemon learn directly affect the battling environment (as in, they totally alter how said Pokemon would work in battle), while whether Arceus is catchable in-game is totally irrelevant to his use in battle.
At the end of the day, I don't really mind what anyone else's opinion is; Love or hate Arceus, it should still come down to Obi to properly specify the rules of a match (since "No Arceus" is not, and never has been a standard rule) before accepting. It seems most people agree on that, at least.
However, it is clear from this discussion and the last that from the standard rules, you can quickly infer "No Arceus". That is what brought this discussion into place the first time.
And because the "No Arceus" rule can be derived from the standard rules (particularly: only pokemon accessable through the game without a hacking device), does that not mean that allowing arceus contradicts the standard rules?
Where does it say that in the standard rules?
Just think of Arceus as an unlockable 'secret' character. Almost every other game has such stuff. Look at Marvel VS Streetfighter, it has an unlockable CyberGouki. And CyberGouki would be considered the Arceus of that Marvel game... And it exists and people do use that character.
I was under the impression that this was the unspoken rule of the community. IE: No Volt-Tackle Aerodactyl, or for a more practical example, Belly-Drum Aqua Jet Azumaril. Again, all pokemon that can be legitly caught without a hacking device
So what you're saying is that if I don't believe in Arceus he doesn't exist?
Thanks, now I'm an atheist.
This is a dead issue. The "Extended Game" clause on Shoddy Battle allows Arceus and the unobtainable berries. If it is unchecked (as it is on the ladder), these things are banned. There is no need for Obi or anyone to say anything; all you have to do to avoid Arceus is avoid playing any matches that have the Extended Game clause in effect.