Competitor and Arceus

[obi]

First, I'd like to ask that you all shut up if you want to call me a whiner, because the odds are you are an uninformed tool who doesn't understand my position and just want to, well, whine about me. What that implies is that I don't fight Arceus because I can't beat it. My opinion on Arceus has been the same since before I started playing ubers. Before I decided to quit vs. Arceus, I won 7 of the 8 matches that included it, and the 8th match was really lost more to Mewtwo than Arceus. My position is based on actual reasoning, not a knee-jerk reaction. If, after reading this post and understanding it you still want to call my a whiner, don't do it anyway. You may no longer be an uninformed tool, but that doesn't mean you have to resort to personal attacks in place of rational discourse.

Last night on ShoddyBattle, I was playing an uber battle against someone named Graviton. I sent out Arceus to counter his Abomasnow, and he said that Arceus is illegal and left. There was a debate between him and Colin in the chat room whether or not it was allowed. His main point: You can't get it without hacking. He compared it to Rapid Spin Tyranitar and Baton Pass Snorlax. Colin said that we shouldn't confine ourselves to Nintendo's will, and if it is legitimate within the game's coding, it should be acceptable regardless if Nintendo has felt the need for a giveaway yet or not.

I agree with your summary of his idea (although it's a bit off, because I don't agree with Colin's actual position). If it's legitimate AND within the game's coding, it should be allowed. However, it's illegitimate because you need to use an AR to get it. To be honest I don't see how anything that requires a Gameshark / Action Replay is considered legitimate.

This, of course, is not restricted to just Arceus (or Shaymin lol).

Arceus and Shaymin are in two different positions. Arceus is completely unobtainable, whereas Shaymin actually can be caught in early Japanese DP via the Elite 4 glitch. The question of allowing Shaymin is a question of whether we allow this particular glitch, and I don't really have a problem with it.

It is a question of "Should simulators like Shoddy or Competitor confine themselves to Nintendo's will?" If Nintendo suddenly said "We intended to give Giratina Roost all along", would simulators put Roost on Giratina? If Nintendo said "What the hell is Heatran doing there? That's just a glitch", would they be forced to remove Heatran?

The fact that Nintendo made the game means we are already confined to their will. There is a way around this, but I'll get to that at the end of my post.

According to your position, then yes, we should put Roost Giratina and remove Heatran, so I'm not sure why you brought that up derisively. Just because they haven't done it yet doesn't mean they won't, right? My position is that they can say that all they want, but until they actually act upon it, it's irrelevant.

My stand on that is this: If it is acceptable within the game's coding, it is acceptable in simulators.

Arceus isn't acceptable within the game's coding, so it shouldn't be allowed. However, your stated stance is far broader than mine, and I don't think you'd actually support the ramifications of this, and in fact, it makes you more of a 'slave' to Nintendo than me. My position is that if it's unacceptable within the game's coding (such as Arceus), then using it means you aren't playing Pokemon. This doesn't mean you have to allow all things that are legal, as those are all up for discussion (for instance, the ban on OHKOs is the removal of something within the game's code), but you automatically ban those things which are illegal.

That's probably sounding very dumbed-down, but as long as the Pokemon is possible to obtain, even if the means to obtain it isn't (yet, might I add), it should be allowed on simulators.

It's not possible to obtain. Nintendo could very well buy Vivendi and get new direction, leading them not to release Arceus. Or perhaps Nintendo never even intended to release Arceus (much like they never intended to release Missingno.), and thus never will release it. Maybe Nintendo's headquarters will burn down and Pokemon will be banned. Maybe we should just wait until you can actually get it. What's with all the impatience?

So what's your stance on it? If it isn't possible to obtain except through the use of hacking devices, should it be allowed? Do we follow the game's word or Nintendo's?

Ironically, your position is following Nintendo's word (and not even their actual word, but their implied word ["We'll release Arceus eventually! Most likely."]), whereas my position is following the code of the game.

When Nintendo starts giving out All 31 Darkrai's, Mews, Celebi's, et. al I'll start caring about what is and isn't on a pokemon simulator.

31 all is just as likely as 5 all, or 13 / 27 / 6 / 14 / 29 / 30. I've seen nothing to suggest that Nintendo had a cap on good IVs.

Fact is Nintendo/Gamefreak programmed it all into the game, therefore it is fair game.

Fact is Nintendo programmed it to be unobtainable so it's not fair game.

What is next, shall we condemn Mod Servers for their errance from our Japanese imperial overlords?

Again with the straw man attack. You should actually wait until I put my position before you attack it, because that argument is entirely irrelevant. Mod servers are honest about what they do: modify the game in an attempt to improve it. If the goal is to actually simulate Pokemon, mod servers fail in that regard, but that's not their goal. For those who do have a goal to simulate the actual game, then allowing Arceus is just self-delusion.

the person you played was a scrub. I could unserstand if this was a wi fi battle but on shoddy grow the fuck up. Also when is competitor going to be finished. Im getting tired of collin and how lousy some of the battlers are..

First, the medium on which you battle is irrelevant to the skill of the battlers. That being said, I'm assuming that you are referring to something along the lines of Sirlin's article about playing to win, and how those who don't are "scrubs". There is one thing his article doesn't take into account, and that's the ability of people to actually change the rules of the game. If I make it so that either Arceus is not part of the main / official / whatever server that aims to simulate the actual game or that there is some automatic clause so I never have to deal with it, then suddenly I'm not a "scrub".

So...no before the battle ruling he would like you to follow? If not then it's not your fault really.

Do you tell your opponent beforehand "No Baton Pass Snorlax, no Spore Ninjask, no 999 all Pokemon."? "No illegal movesets" is generally an assumed clause. For instance, although there is no automatic clause for it yet, ThunderPunch Poison Heal Breloom is banned regardless of whether you say this beforehand.

The point is, you are not playing Pokemon Diamond (or Pearl). You are playing Shoddy Battle, a pokemon sim. They are not the same thing. On Shoddy Battle, Arceus is allowed and there's no reason to act like a grumpy little kid and quit a match because you don't like it. You win. He loses. Colin wins. He loses.

First off, how does "Colin win. lose"? When did Colin get a horse in this race? You really need to pay attention next time he talks if this is what you take from it.

You also need to look up what "sim" means. It's short for "simulator". Don't worry, I'll help clear up confusion on this front. Dictionary.com defines simulate as:

1. to create a simulation, likeness, or model of (a situation, system, or the like): to simulate crisis conditions.

In other words, the goal of a simulator is to get as close as possible to the actual thing. This means that, if something ought not be allowed on Wi-Fi, it ought not be allowed in a simulator.

Well, in the same way, there is technically only one version of Blissey that carries Wish, and it is not Bold, so are all the people on Shoddy Battle using a Bold WishBliss cheating?

Hint: The answer is no. It's a simulator.

The answer is no because you are acting on false pretenses. There is absolutely no evidence to support that Wish Blissey is always Bold. There is, however, evidence that other Blissey exist. I'll take the word of guys like TRE over your source, EeveeTrainer.




If we allow Arceus, we are departing from the actual game. If we stop there, we are either doing too much or too little. If you don't lie to yourself, the odds are that there are some things in the game you would prefer not to exist. We, as a community, could likely come to consensus on at least some of these things. If we are willing to depart from the actual game, why not go further and make more improvements? If you don't like the idea of tinkering with the mechanics of the game, then why allow Arceus? To allow Arceus and then stop is either going too far or not far enough.

I am in no way saying "People who use Arceus are bad people and will go to Hell!". This is like the hacking debate all over again. People get emotional on an issue that ought to be solved logically. Before you try to rebut my arguments, make sure they are actually arguments I am making. In the hacking debates we had a few weeks ago, my position was (and still is) that using an Action Replay is hacking, regardless. People took this to mean that I thought that people who use an AR are evil people. I don't. I take it to mean you use a hacking device.

If we decide to stray from the actual game by allowing Arceus, I'm all for it as long as we make other improvements, too. However, by doing that, if you're being honest with yourself, you'll realize that the game ceases to be Pokemon.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Do you tell your opponent beforehand "No Baton Pass Snorlax, no Spore Ninjask, no 999 all Pokemon."? "No illegal movesets" is generally an assumed clause. For instance, although there is no automatic clause for it yet, ThunderPunch Poison Heal Breloom is banned regardless of whether you say this beforehand.

But here's the thing, He believed that it was okay to use the Poke-God and implied that you was okay with too. How in God's name is a person suppose to know you don't want to battle one simple creature that is impossible to get via normal means. Not everyone follow the same belief you have about this certain pokemon.

 

[obi]

But this is a pokemon we're talking about, not moveset. How in God's name is a person suppose to know you don't want to battle one smiple creature if you don't tell him/her. Not everyone believe in your idea of "legit" and "illegit"

The burden ought to be on them to tell me that they are using Arceus, not for me to tell them not to use a Pokemon that can only be obtained with hacking. However, when I do see them using Arceus, I explain why I'm leaving and then I leave.

 

[Deck Knight]

Again with the straw man attack. You should actually wait until I put my position before you attack it, because that argument is entirely irrelevant. Mod servers are honest about what they do: modify the game in an attempt to improve it. If the goal is to actually simulate Pokemon, mod servers fail in that regard, but that's not their goal. For those who do have a goal to simulate the actual game, then allowing Arceus is just self-delusion.

I can't possibly attack an argument no one has posited Obi. Contrary to popular belief I am incapable of warping through time to see posts made hours after mine. Perhaps you should just chill out Obi, the internets is not serious business.

As far as Arceus' "Legit"-ness, you only need AR to hack a legitimately existing item and then you catch it normally. I don't have any chance of getting passes for Deoxys, although I did have one traded through a Ninty promotional event at ToysRUs about a year ago. It was the same with North American Celebu in GSC, and Celebi right now as far as I'm aware.

Eventually Arceus will be released and that is all that matters. Since temporal logic does not seem to be bound to people's postings (because apparently people can misrepresent and then tear down arguments which will not materialize themselves until hours later), I doubt you view it as important to the legit-ness of pokemon.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

The burden ought to be on them to tell me that they are using Arceus, not for me to tell them not to use a Pokemon that can only be obtained with hacking. However, when I do see them using Arceus, I explain why I'm leaving and then I leave.

So it's your rivial responsible to tell you he's using and/or about to use Arceus this current time to you and also knowing that Graviton = Obi, am I right? So let say the foe doesn't know it's you techically, is he/she still responsible to tell you one member of his team before battle?

I'll play the other side here and say that revealing one pokemon theroically wouldn't ruin your plans since you haven't told him/her what's it moveset and such. I'll also say that you're not a whiny bitch or something since you're most likely winning those battles or such.

 

[Jibaku]

Well let's see
1) it's obviously a pokemon, and therefore, not illegal

2) How are we supposed to test it if Arceus is banned? How are we gonna get used to it? Are we forced to battle without it? We don't know if Nintendo is gonna release it or not, but it's always good t practice with it before Ninty releases it, so you get a good idea of what the metagame will be like before people start spamming you on WiFi with Arceuses. Yet at the same time, a RoT Darkrai isn't programmed into the game, unlike Arceus, and ths, doesn't exist until Ninty releases it. It's a matter of something that's programmed into the game vs something that isn't.

3) I think the best option for this is a checkbox with the option "Unavailable Event Pokemon Clause". This bans whatever didn't come up yet in events.

 

[obi]

Colin is adding a clause like that, Jibaku, into the next version.

So I'm happy.

 

[Bologo]

I'm pretty sure that if Arceus is in the programming of the game, then it's gonna be released someday, guaranteed. It's allowed in PBR in all ways just like every other pokemon, and the voice announcer knows what it is, so why the heck wouldn't it be released?

Heh, sorry Obi, but I really your argument is flawed when you say that they have to tell you Arceus is on their team. That just seems extremely unfair, because then if you do decide to battle them, you already know what one of their pokemon are, and they know none of yours.

It honestly is your responsibility to ask them if they have Arceus on their team, because not everyone is automatically going to just tell you that Arceus is on their team, because it's more of a personal clause than a universal clause, so it's up to you to notify them of that.

Though, of course, I suppose if Arceus were banished completely if it were actually too good, then that's alright. That clause sound like a good idea though, although banning Arceus would just be easier.

 

[Dragontamer]

I agree with Obi that arceus is an inconsistancy to standard clauses, and that in the perfect world... Arceus is illegal right now.

2) How are we supposed to test it if Arceus is banned? How are we gonna get used to it? Are we forced to battle without it? We don't know if Nintendo is gonna release it or not, but it's always good t practice with it before Ninty releases it, so you get a good idea of what the metagame will be like before people start spamming you on WiFi with Arceuses. Yet at the same time, a RoT Darkrai isn't programmed into the game, unlike Arceus, and ths, doesn't exist until Ninty releases it. It's a matter of something that's programmed into the game vs something that isn't.

Arceus for all we know may never be released. Nintendo may still be debating whether or not it is a good idea to release a 720 stat base pokemon and may in fact never release the thing.

In which case, we have a broken metagame, where everyone prepares for Extreme-Speed Arceus when he in actuality was never a threat to begin with ever.

3) I think the best option for this is a checkbox with the option "Unavailable Event Pokemon Clause". This bans whatever didn't come up yet in events.

I think thats something everyone can agree on.

 

[TheMantyke]

I would like to ask a quick question to you obi.

when arceus is legally obtaibable, will you declare this water under the bridge and be fine with arceus?

 

[Deck Knight]

Arceus for all we know may never be released. Nintendo may still be debating whether or not it is a good idea to release a 720 stat base pokemon and may in fact never release the thing.

I think this is unlikely for several reasons:

First, Gamefreak and Ninty programmed Arceus' stats, movepool, and his strange and doubtless complicated trait, as well as the 16 plates that go with it.

Second, Nintendo/Gamefreak exists to make money. I guarentee you they will have a movie exhibiting Arceus at some point, therefore Arceus represents $$$ for Nintendo/Gamefreak. Eventually they will have Event to draw out poke-fans and their willing wallets, now that they all know what Arceus is and what it can do thanks to available online resources. Not realeasing Arceus at some point is bad for business.

Third, Nintendo/Gamefreak have heretofore been grossly unaware of competitive battling. Way back when they could have fired their Nintendo Power rating staff in RBY. Emerald showcased their first real attempt to do anything for the competive battlers.

If we must clause Arceus even from Ubers it doesn't really matter to me. The clause is fine in theory but why go through the trouble just to ban one specific pokemon.

 

[Chou Toshio]

edit: Lots of folks posted before me, but the ^ sign was originally going at GT's last post (though I love you GT :P)

^No, what Obi's saying is that we as a community are still under the disillusion that we are playing "pokemon" on Shoddy, and that pokemon disallows Arceus. Because of this, Arceus should not be used when playing Pokemon.

By that same token Obi, I'd say that if we're honest with ourselves, none of us is playing pokemon anyway. We are playing competitive Smogon Battle, or if we are fighting members of other boards we are playing on a general consensus of competitive battling that includes several clauses of our own design independant of nintendo.

Personally, I think that people do have a lot of gripes with the actual game, and that we as a community are choosing to make improvements on it. However, the choice to make these improvements is not based on logic-- it's based on our desire. On the fact that we like this or don't like that.

While most in this thread probably aren't understanding your point that what they want really isn't pokemon, I think you would have to agree that by reading their posts you can see what their general desire is.

Whether it is "pokemon" or not, it is obvious to me that the general consensus of uber players is that they like Arceus. It looks to me that whether it is legal or not, pokemon or not, simulator or otherwise-- they want arceus, and as a community we will probably end with a general consensus to modify the rules/programming/whatever to allow its use.

As to "further improvements," I see no reason why not to make more. At the moment though, we are only discussing the issue about arceus, and if we as a community decide to alter the game more from there-- it can wait. No reason to be impatient.

 

[Pneuma]

I would like to ask a quick question to you obi.

when arceus is legally obtaibable, will you declare this water under the bridge and be fine with arceus?

That's the crux of his whole argument.

 

[EconBiscuit]

I completly agree with Obi, If something cannot be obtained legally in any shape or form, then it shouldn't be allowed within the simulator? Thus why people avoid using Hynosis, Brave Bird Roosting Crobats because it is an illegal moveset, just as Arceus still is an illegal pokemon. Once the way to obtain Arceus is released by Ninty I feel that no-one should use him. It's just like if Ninty announced a new pokemon in the new Version of D/P (Like Y/C/E). Then it shouldn't be released in the simulator until it is released within the game

 

[Dragontamer]

First, Gamefreak and Ninty programmed Arceus' stats, movepool, and his strange and doubtless complicated trait, as well as the 16 plates that go with it.

if(water_plate) then return Arceus_water;
else if(fire_plate) then return Arceus_fire;
...

I can do that in 16 lines of code. There are far more complicated traits, like "Simple", Leaf Guard and so forth. The above code can actually be orthogonal to the rest of the game... while "Simple" has to have a hook into every single damage calculation...

On the other hand, a pokemon with precisely 120 in each stat and all types in the game would serve very well as a debugging tool. You can check for STAB damage, check to make sure all of the damage calculations work as expected. Further, the base 120 in everything makes calculating the theoretical stat points significantly easier, and isolates all variables into IVs and EVs.

Both would be useful for testing purposes as far as programming is concerned. For all we know, Arceus is the debug pokemon, designed with the perfect stats for testing super-effective, NVE, EVs, IVs, Items and various other parts of the game engine.

When you look at it, Nintendo has created over 100 extra pokemon this generation. I think they can afford to leave one pokemon out, especially if one helped them out with programming.

If if if. We don't know anything. We only know for sure when Nintendo releases Arceus if he is a real pokemon, or just a debug pokemon.

Second, Nintendo/Gamefreak exists to make money. I guarentee you they will have a movie exhibiting Arceus at some point, therefore Arceus represents $$$ for Nintendo/Gamefreak. Eventually they will have Event to draw out poke-fans and their willing wallets, now that they all know what Arceus is and what it can do thanks to available online resources. Not realeasing Arceus at some point is bad for business.

If he was a debug pokemon, then he would have already served his purpose in cutting development time and testing costs.

 

[sandman]

Just throwing this out there but, according to serebbi, in the Pokemon Mystery dungeon 2 they have the list of legendaries that will appear in the game and arceus isn't on the list which means nintendo probably doesn't want anyone knowing about him yet or at all.

 

[majesty]

Obi, how is obtaining shaymin via a glitch any different than hacking an arceus? It's still against the intended coding of the game and is therefore just as wrong.

I don't understand that part of your arguement. Do you condone or disallow the use of Shaymin?

 

[EconBiscuit]

Well DragonTamer in accordance with you're debugging theory Arceus, it does make sense, Esp. if you take into consideration Arceus's Dex Entry "this pokemon was born before the Universe existed"

Aswell as having Judgement for the 100 Stab for testing, all it's moves are centred towards something and no 2 of his learned moves do the same thing. Only one you could question would be Hyper Voice, which could be to check sound proof abilities.

 

[Pneuma]

Obi, how is obtaining shaymin via a glitch any different than hacking an arceus?

One of them requires an AR to obtain.
One of them does not require an AR to obtain.

 

[Deck Knight]

if(water_plate) then return Arceus_water;
else if(fire_plate) then return Arceus_fire;
...

I can do that in 16 lines of code. There are far more complicated traits, like "Simple", Leaf Guard and so forth. The above code can actually be orthogonal to the rest of the game... while "Simple" has to have a hook into every single damage calculation...

On the other hand, a pokemon with precisely 120 in each stat and all types in the game would serve very well as a debugging tool. You can check for STAB damage, check to make sure all of the damage calculations work as expected. Further, the base 120 in everything makes calculating the theoretical stat points significantly easier, and isolates all variables into IVs and EVs.

Both would be useful for testing purposes as far as programming is concerned. For all we know, Arceus is the debug pokemon, designed with the perfect stats for testing super-effective, NVE, EVs, IVs, Items and various other parts of the game engine.

When you look at it, Nintendo has created over 100 extra pokemon this generation. I think they can afford to leave one pokemon out, especially if one helped them out with programming.

If if if. We don't know anything. We only know for sure when Nintendo releases Arceus if he is a real pokemon, or just a debug pokemon.



If he was a debug pokemon, then he would have already served his purpose in cutting development time and testing costs.

Why not Mew, Celebi, Manaphy, or Shaymin then?

Mew especially, given that it has a +2 move in each stat and Baton Pass.

And even still, why bother with giving it an accessible specific movepool and its own unique attack? Why bother giving it a height, weight, location, and Dex entry? Why bother giving it an event-only item to access it?

That's an awful lot of code for a purely debug pokemon. And again, Arceus' dex entries pretty much mean Arceus is going to be a money-maker at some point for a movie.

It's certainly a plausible theory, but I tend to lean towards pragmatic business concerns. Gamers buy games for fun. Companies make games for money.

 

[EconBiscuit]

Well in all honesty, until Arceus is released we will never know, it's like Mew, He could've been there to help debug in R/B, By learning all TM's it'd certainly help, aswell as his rounded base stats, it could've be the same for the others, alas, Arceus is the ultimate debug pokemon.

 

[SubVersion]

I'm holding my Diamond cart. I know, without a doubt, that programmed into this cart is not only Arceus himself, but also the room he exists in and the event which unlocks him. Your main point seems to be that, the only way to actually trigger that event is via hacking.

All I can ask is: So?

I mean, sure. If the only way to get Arceus right now was to Pokesav one, then I'd agree with you completely: Arceus would only exist via hacking. But the fact is, he exists in each and every one of our game cartridges without hacking. There's a huge difference between "hacking a Pokemon into existence" and "hacking an item to go see a Pokemon already in the game", and I really think it is an important thing to note. In any case where a person has hacked the event, Arceus himself is a legitimate pokemon, with a random nature and IVs. While it may be impossible to have him in-game without AR, my point is the Pokemon itself is still a legitimate part of the game's programming, and thus there's no real reason to ban him from Shoddy, or any other online simulator.

You also need to look up what "sim" means. It's short for "simulator". Don't worry, I'll help clear up confusion on this front. Dictionary.com defines simulate as:

1. to create a simulation, likeness, or model of (a situation, system, or the like): to simulate crisis conditions.

In other words, the goal of a simulator is to get as close as possible to the actual thing. This means that, if something ought not be allowed on Wi-Fi, it ought not be allowed in a simulator.

I've got to bring this up, because it seems like a huge double standard. Shoddy Battle's official server is obviously attempting to simulate the real battling system of the game as closely as possible, correct? But there's so much stuff on Shoddy, so much that is either impossible or ridiculously improbable, that it is a fallacy to say that it adhere's to the implicit rules of the game.

For one, you have infinite everything. TMs, items, berries. You name it, you can use as many as you want. No matter how much you trade stuff on WiFi, you can never have an infinite amount of everything. If Shoddy really was trying to simulate the in-game experience (rather than a competitive one), surely you'd have a limit?

All 31 IVs. On every Pokemon. Ever. Unless, of course, a Pokemon uses a Hidden Power. In which case, it will always have the maximum possible IVs in every stat that will get it that HP. Plus, the exact nature you want. Plus, all your opponents have max IVs on everything they've ever "caught" as well. Spin it however you want, but that is certainly only possible in-game via AR.

Clauses. The game doesn't mind if that Crobat sleeps every single Pokemon on your team. It doesn't mind if that Umbreon mean looks you, double teams six times and passes to a Garchomp. Its happy for that Crawdaunt to Guillotine you three times in a row. Some of these clauses do exist, but only within PBR. Within DP, they're impossible: Crobat's Hypnosis wont fail if you use it on a second Pokemon. On Shoddy it will.

That's my argument, anyway. Arceus (the Pokemon itself) is not an illegitimate creation, and should be allowed. Especially considering the simulator we're using is creating a workable competitive environment, not simulating the restrictive in-game one. Also, expecting opponents to tell you if they're carrying a specific Pokemon before battling you not only demonstrates that you assume everyone to have the same perception of "legitimate" as you (which everyone clearly does not), but also places unfair expectations on people who may or may not know your Shoddy alias, or may not have read these threads on Smogon and are thus completely unaware of your stance.

I'm fine if you don't want to play with Arceus (even though I don't agree with your reasoning). But since you're the one with the unusual standards, it really would just be common courtesy to tell the person you're battling that you don't play with a certain Pokemon before actually accepting their challenge. It really falls on your shoulders, not theirs.

 

[Erebos]

On the other hand, a pokemon with precisely 120 in each stat and all types in the game would serve very well as a debugging tool. You can check for STAB damage, check to make sure all of the damage calculations work as expected. Further, the base 120 in everything makes calculating the theoretical stat points significantly easier, and isolates all variables into IVs and EVs.

Both would be useful for testing purposes as far as programming is concerned. For all we know, Arceus is the debug pokemon, designed with the perfect stats for testing super-effective, NVE, EVs, IVs, Items and various other parts of the game engine.

When you look at it, Nintendo has created over 100 extra pokemon this generation. I think they can afford to leave one pokemon out, especially if one helped them out with programming.

If if if. We don't know anything. We only know for sure when Nintendo releases Arceus if he is a real pokemon, or just a debug pokemon.

As logical as the debug part of your argument is, it goes against a lot of the things that are tied to Arceus; it has a story in the games connected to other pokemon (the new legendaries and ubers), it has a definite location in the game when they could have not placed it in at all, a sprite, and those plates that could have been used for debugging purposes and then just never used were placed in the game. Don't get me wrong, your argument about it being the testing poke are entirely possible, but there's no way that Nintendo didn't want the public to know about it.

Edit: Wow, Deck Night beat me to it; I spent way too much time typing this up.

 

[majesty]

One of them requires an AR to obtain.
One of them does not require an AR to obtain.

One of them is using a glitch in the code deliberately, the other is causing the code to change deliberately. Either way, the code wasn't intended and is being abused.

 

[Chou Toshio]

One of them is using a glitch in the code deliberately, the other is causing the code to change deliberately. Either way, the code wasn't intended and is being abused.

True, but we as a wifi community should think twice before denouncing the validity of glitches. Or else, we'd have to stop cloning . . .