-
Smogon Premier League is here and the team collection is now available. Support your team!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Competitor and Arceus
- Thread starter umbarsc
- Start date
Um....
Because it is not illegitimate. Read the second part of your post for what it is ;/
And you know what semi-legit is. That grey area there thats not 100% legit, but not illegal.
My point is that there is nothing illegal about using a completely normal arceus, in the same way as there is nothing illegal about using a completely normal darkrai that you hacked the item to get him. He's still darkrai, you still SRed for him (maybe, if you want as close to legit as possible). The only difference between the two is that darkrai has had an event already and arceus hasnt. But i completely fail to see how an event makes one poke 100% illegal and banned and the other one perfectly fine, when in reality they were both obtained by a person in the exact same way, the semi-legit way.
Dont question semi-legit. Im not providing a full, set-in-stone definition for it, because i quite honestly dont think any one person has the right to define something for an entire community, nobody has that much power over everyone else. But i know for a fact that you are not stupid, you have guidelines for semi-legit, and while others may be different, its the same basic ideas. Unless you want to argue that you really are stupid (which you arent, dont go there) and have no idea what semi-legit is, then obtaining arceus either via pokesav or hacking an azure flute is included in those semi-legit outlines, need i reiterate, in the same way that the darkrai would be.
And honestly, from experience, semi-legality in a battle is exactly the same as legality, and without proof that he changes the metagame in some unfair way, there is no arguement against him.
Now my arguement? He's not gamebreaking. Obi himself confirmed this, as i have quoted in every one of my responses. So why would you want to limit the metagame, honestly, why. Based on opinion, maybe? why? why dont you like him? he provides options, variants in battle styles, new ideas, metagame growth and evolution, he doesnt hinder the metagame at all. So why is it your opinion, obi and all who side with you, to limit the already finite metagame on seemingly the grounds of merely personal opinion? That, is where all of my confusion comes from, since the one thing that obi has not proven to me is why the opinion of such a respectable battler is leaning towards limiting the metagame. do you perhaps want an easier time winning? I dont wish for you to sound arrogant, so im still awaiting an explanation.
Uh, the uber tier is the largest tier of any of them.
I don't really get why people are trying so hard to show that Arceus is "in the game." We all know he is. That's not the point. The question isn't really, "How legitimate is Arceus." It's, "What is this simulator really simulating?" And really, even if it doesn't intend to simulate the battling portion of Pokemon exactly, why not have the option to be more realistic in there?
I'm going to guess it goes something like: Our idea of playing competitive Pokemon does not include buying a third-party device to modify a program being run, and furthermore we think that it's a good idea that a PC implementation of the battling portion of Pokemon at least have the option to follow the actual game.
In theory, yes, but really, ubers are nearly as confined as NU.
I still don't see why Arceus should be banned from simulators in the first place. This discussion would be better held for Arceus on WiFi, where I would fully support Obi's arguments. But it's not. It's on a simulator, where no one has to hack to get an Arceus. It's on a simulator, where using Arceus would be illegitimate if the creator of the sim said it wasn't okay. On a simulator, it's ultimately up to the creator to choose if Arceus was legitimate or not, and if he said it was, that's okay, and if he succumbs to "peer" pressure, that's okay too.
You're again denying Arceus's actual existance. He's right there. I dare you to go check.
Maybe read what i even read next time instead of instantly telling me im an idiot. Isnt shoddy battle itself a third-party device? It modifies the program being run, and you can do everything that AR can with it. You can set IVs, instantly catch anyone, even arceus. You're own arguement is against itself, in reality you arent even playing pokemon, you're playing shoddy battle. Last i checked, simulators arent real.
Mkay, so in summation of all of that; you're playing shoddybattle. Wanna go out and buy an action replay to use it on shoddybattle so you can go catch an arceus? You enjoy that for me, then.
And im talking solely of the uber tier, not of any preceding tiers. I know they all exist in ubers, but thats not what im talking about.
And yet again, you failed to tell me how semi-legality is equal to illegality.
I never said anything even remotely close to denying that Arceus is contained within the game code. All I said is that, unlike virtually everything else in the game, the only way to access him is to use a piece of third-party hardware.
And, again, you're not getting the point. We KNOW that Shoddy isn't Pokemon. The point is that some of us want the option for Shoddy to simulate battling as you could do with just a Nintendo DS and a copy of Pokemon. Some of us want the option to simulate battling as you could do with a Nintendo DS, an Action Replay, and a copy of Pokemon.
It is trivially simple and already implemented to have both options.
And, uh, "yet again I failed to tell you..." I never even tried once, let alone multiple times. Stop being so damn full of yourself.
And, again, you're not getting the point. We KNOW that Shoddy isn't Pokemon. The point is that some of us want the option for Shoddy to simulate battling as you could do with just a Nintendo DS and a copy of Pokemon. Some of us want the option to simulate battling as you could do with a Nintendo DS, an Action Replay, and a copy of Pokemon.
It is trivially simple and already implemented to have both options.
And, uh, "yet again I failed to tell you..." I never even tried once, let alone multiple times. Stop being so damn full of yourself.
i asked you to define "semi-legit" because that is common practice in "debates" such a this. anyway, how can you possible say that "semi-legality in a battle is exactly the same as legality"? that's like saying it's alright for a 25-year-old guy to have sex with a girl who will be 18 next month because she's "almost legal". the term "semi-legal" is pretty much an oxymoron as far as i'm concerned, since something is either legal or, you know, it isn't
it really looks like you want arceus to be legal just because you want it to be more than obi just doesn't because he doesn't want it to be. we seem to be going round in circles because he has already stated that he doesn't want arcues to be allowed because it cannot be legally obtained. he stated that he beat it 7-out-of-8 times to underline the fact that his argument does not at ALL hinge on how easily he, Obi, can defeat it, i'm surprised you can't see why that's why he said it
And the only thing that bothers me about that is Arceus is now banned, or rather can be banned under said clause, just because obi thinks its illegal. I dont see why obi is given special treatment, no matter how good of a battler he is. Because what you just told me sounds an awful lot like "My opinion is better than everyone else's, so i get what i want", and that disturbs me a little.
And every time you instantly go to some insane comparison between terms. We arent talking about legal laws, we arent talking about sex, we aren't talking about reprocussions of what happens if you hack even, we're talking about pokemon, about battling, and Im talking about how getting 31/12/24/31/28/31 (purely exemplary) IVs through an action replay is the same as getting 31/12/24/31/28/31 through breeding. Although I guess somehow the action replay changes whats gonna happen when you use those two "different" pokes in battle, you're right, my bad. ( and again, you know that i am currently referring to my "semi-legit" arguement in this paragraph, dont misinterpret for the sake of you winning)
And lastly, i've never played an uber battle in my life. Whether that means anything or not to you, Arcues's legality doesnt change my battling at all. My sole arguement is against obi recieving special treatment, as fully stated in both my first paragraph and by you yourself. And what do we do if the evidence shows that neither of us gets "what we want" reguarding arceus? Then we leave him as he always was, and as you know, he has always been legal.
And every time you instantly go to some insane comparison between terms. We arent talking about legal laws, we arent talking about sex, we aren't talking about reprocussions of what happens if you hack even, we're talking about pokemon, about battling, and Im talking about how getting 31/12/24/31/28/31 (purely exemplary) IVs through an action replay is the same as getting 31/12/24/31/28/31 through breeding. Although I guess somehow the action replay changes whats gonna happen when you use those two "different" pokes in battle, you're right, my bad. ( and again, you know that i am currently referring to my "semi-legit" arguement in this paragraph, dont misinterpret for the sake of you winning)
And lastly, i've never played an uber battle in my life. Whether that means anything or not to you, Arcues's legality doesnt change my battling at all. My sole arguement is against obi recieving special treatment, as fully stated in both my first paragraph and by you yourself. And what do we do if the evidence shows that neither of us gets "what we want" reguarding arceus? Then we leave him as he always was, and as you know, he has always been legal.
Kind of, seeing as this was originally "why people be disconnecting on shoddy" instead of "WHAT DO YOU DEFINE 'INTENDED' AS?"
When a thread becomes a series of circular arguments and semantic debates divergent from the thread's original intent and purpose, you wind up with a thread that really leads no where where people will continue posting the same things and take a break just long enough to question whether one poster "understands them" or "knows what they're talking about." Sorry if this is also considered a mini-mod, but I just think having a circular discussion is less fun than staying on the original topic, which I tried to summarize in why it's so hard to just set parameters of a battle beforehand when you don't have the option of doing so with the technology.
On PBR and WiFi there is no built in sleep clause. But often you will set this up with your opponent in advance (though on PBR random, it's either understood or you're probably going to DC in response to breaking it). There should be no reason for an unannounced disconnect in online gaming unless you just want to be a dick or you've suffered a power outage/system freeze (edit: or there is a broken rule you've established beforehand, like no Rocket Launcher and your opponent uses Rocket Launchers); it's really impolite and absolutely unnecessary if and when you're capable of the original "clause structure" in the form of language.
First things first, the majority of this thread seems to be more towards bashing Obi's dislike toward Arceus, and less toward the topic. I think we all need to chill a bit. We can disagree with Obi without calling him unnecessary names, etc. I disagree with Obi, but can disagree with him without calling him "whiner" etc.
Heres my two cents on this matter:
I personally don't play ubers, but I still don't think Arceus is illegal. Why? Lets use some logic to come up with a reason.
When activating Arceus's event in game [D/P], you're not hacking the Arceus. You're hacking the item to get to Arceus. Arceus is already programmed into the game itself. You just need the flute to get access to him. I'm not increasing my odds of getting good IV's on the Arceus. I don't think its right to call Arceus hacked if it was obtained using that method. Seriously, would you consider a Poke'Sav'd Arceus and an in-game event Arceus the same thing?
As for Shoddy, I don't think we should be arguing about it. Its not as if you cannot use it yourself. If Arceus is so "feared", read its analysis, and use it yourself. If you're going to call Arceus illegal on Shoddy, then many other things would be illegal on Shoddy. For example, all 31 Pokemon. I know those aren't always hacked. But seriously, do you see completely flawless Pokemon on the Wi-Fi forum every day? No. Now a full team of flawless would take a while to get. And to top it, if I remember correctly, you can choose max Hidden Powers without having the right IV's (i.e. HP Fighting 70 but with 31 speed, when normally its impossible to get 31 speed on an HP Fighting 70 Pokemon). But on Shoddy, you can get a flawless team within seconds. So if you're using flawless Pokemon, Arceus shouldn't be much of a problem. Especially since the possible excuse "I don't have an AR to hack the flute" doesn't exist on Shoddy. You can use Arceus yourself, as can anyone and everyone else.
And everything that requires an outside device is automatically hacked? That would make every single Pokemon on the Wi-Fi trade forum hacked. Why? Because I can personally guarantee that 99% of Smogon's traders clone with an AR. You don't need to own an AR to have your Pokemon cloned by one. Many people offer cloning services. I personally don't have an AR yet, but have had my Pokemon cloned by an AR. So all the traders on Wi-Fi are trading hacked Pokemon if the touch of outside devices automatically makes your Pokemon hacked.
You also might say use the GTS to clone. But seriously, when you have half a dozen people asking for a Pokemon off your thread, are you going to make them wait half an hour to clone the Pokemon? A possible answer to this is "Some people can easily clone with the GTS and quickly". That may be true, but it takes a lot of practice, and very few people bother to learn that "art" since AR's exist.
Since we're on the topic of GTS, why would GTS cloned Pokemon not be hacked? Yeah its in the game, but its not meant to be used. You'd be abusing a glitch that was never meant to happen if you GTS clone. You may not be using an outside device, but you would still be messing around with something not meant to happen. If Nintendo wanted us to legally clone, they would have had a cloning machine in-game.
...and you can't say Arceus is hacked, but Shaymin and Darkrai aren't. You still need to hack an event item for Shaymin and Arceus. Yeah, you can use the glitch in the Japanese version of the game [Elite 4 Aaron's door, surf through the wall etc], but guess what? Thats only in the Japanese game. Not in the English game. So if we properly apply you're theory, Shaymin and Darkrai are only legit if you're battling a Japanese player using a Japanese game. Apart from that, the Japanese player would be abusing a glitch that was never meant to happen, just like the GTS. You can't be picky on half of the issue, and leave the other half.
Thats my view on this issue. I'm not trying to be offensive or anything, so please don't take it that way. Thanks everyone =D
Heres my two cents on this matter:
I personally don't play ubers, but I still don't think Arceus is illegal. Why? Lets use some logic to come up with a reason.
When activating Arceus's event in game [D/P], you're not hacking the Arceus. You're hacking the item to get to Arceus. Arceus is already programmed into the game itself. You just need the flute to get access to him. I'm not increasing my odds of getting good IV's on the Arceus. I don't think its right to call Arceus hacked if it was obtained using that method. Seriously, would you consider a Poke'Sav'd Arceus and an in-game event Arceus the same thing?
As for Shoddy, I don't think we should be arguing about it. Its not as if you cannot use it yourself. If Arceus is so "feared", read its analysis, and use it yourself. If you're going to call Arceus illegal on Shoddy, then many other things would be illegal on Shoddy. For example, all 31 Pokemon. I know those aren't always hacked. But seriously, do you see completely flawless Pokemon on the Wi-Fi forum every day? No. Now a full team of flawless would take a while to get. And to top it, if I remember correctly, you can choose max Hidden Powers without having the right IV's (i.e. HP Fighting 70 but with 31 speed, when normally its impossible to get 31 speed on an HP Fighting 70 Pokemon). But on Shoddy, you can get a flawless team within seconds. So if you're using flawless Pokemon, Arceus shouldn't be much of a problem. Especially since the possible excuse "I don't have an AR to hack the flute" doesn't exist on Shoddy. You can use Arceus yourself, as can anyone and everyone else.
And everything that requires an outside device is automatically hacked? That would make every single Pokemon on the Wi-Fi trade forum hacked. Why? Because I can personally guarantee that 99% of Smogon's traders clone with an AR. You don't need to own an AR to have your Pokemon cloned by one. Many people offer cloning services. I personally don't have an AR yet, but have had my Pokemon cloned by an AR. So all the traders on Wi-Fi are trading hacked Pokemon if the touch of outside devices automatically makes your Pokemon hacked.
You also might say use the GTS to clone. But seriously, when you have half a dozen people asking for a Pokemon off your thread, are you going to make them wait half an hour to clone the Pokemon? A possible answer to this is "Some people can easily clone with the GTS and quickly". That may be true, but it takes a lot of practice, and very few people bother to learn that "art" since AR's exist.
Since we're on the topic of GTS, why would GTS cloned Pokemon not be hacked? Yeah its in the game, but its not meant to be used. You'd be abusing a glitch that was never meant to happen if you GTS clone. You may not be using an outside device, but you would still be messing around with something not meant to happen. If Nintendo wanted us to legally clone, they would have had a cloning machine in-game.
...and you can't say Arceus is hacked, but Shaymin and Darkrai aren't. You still need to hack an event item for Shaymin and Arceus. Yeah, you can use the glitch in the Japanese version of the game [Elite 4 Aaron's door, surf through the wall etc], but guess what? Thats only in the Japanese game. Not in the English game. So if we properly apply you're theory, Shaymin and Darkrai are only legit if you're battling a Japanese player using a Japanese game. Apart from that, the Japanese player would be abusing a glitch that was never meant to happen, just like the GTS. You can't be picky on half of the issue, and leave the other half.
Thats my view on this issue. I'm not trying to be offensive or anything, so please don't take it that way. Thanks everyone =D
you're giving obi a little too much credit. do you honestly think that his posts are 100% the only reason why there is now a clause on a program he didn't even write? do you think colin doesn't have a mind of his own?
i am drawing real-life comparisons to show you how flawed i think you're line of reasoning is. and besides, you just did it now, implying that the two "different" 31/12/24/31/28/31 pokemon is the same thing as whether or not arceus should be used in competitive battle. and please don't pretend that anyone would actually shark 31/12/24/31/28/31 stats—i realize that getting 31/12/24/31/28/31 is the same chance as getting 31/31/31/31/31/31, but for the sake of this argument, one is still legit, and one isn't. the fact that it has no impact on battling doesn't mean you're allowed to start throwing around terms like "semi-legit". just like the fact that obi personally doesn't have a competitive problem batting arceus does not make it semi-legit
that's cool, i don't even really play pokemon anymore. i'm only "arguing" in terms of what's right and wrong, or, for the sake of this debate, what's legal and what isn't (or legit or not).
Yes, but the english players have no way of obtaining it themselves. The fact that they can trade with each other cannot be classified as a completely legitimate argument.
Its like asking someone to rob the bank for you.
And as for AR cloning, I totally disagree with your argument. I bred the Pokemon myself, and simply made a copy of it.
Its like asking someone to rob the bank for you.
And as for AR cloning, I totally disagree with your argument. I bred the Pokemon myself, and simply made a copy of it.
@Jumpman: I think its best to say you have your opinion, and i have mine. I see that no matter how much we argue, neither will change our minds ;/ I never had a problem with the clause, it seems like compromise is the best idea, but Obi's inconsideration towards people who like arceus seems well..inconsiderate (to put it nicely), the way i see it. Its the same as those rare new players that ban SkarmBliss merely because they dont like seeing them, the only thing that it does is make those skarmbliss users either change their entire team, or lose what could have otherwise been a fun battle. Despite arceus's, at worst, illegality, its the same as the skarmbliss ban. anyone who uses arceus to complete their team's synergy cant even battle anybody who uses the new clause now. And you wouldnt ban skarmory and blissey, so why ban arceus? illegality just seems like a wall to hide behind with no real reason to it, and you know very well that arceus's illegality is alot different than say, thunderpunch poisonheal breloom's illegality.
You should play it again. You'd make a damn good battler, given how good your analyses are.
Jumpman16 said:
You should play it again. You'd make a damn good battler, given how good your analyses are.
Really, I don't see the difference between hacking an Arceus item and Pokesaving one by rolling 31-sided die for IVs or whatever. It's just something people made up to feel better about themselves for using an AR, which they shouldn't even have to do, because AR use isn't intrinsically bad or anything.
Shoddy won't give you max IVs with any Hidden Power. HP Fighting 70 is 31/31/30/30/30/30, just like it should be. Misinformation isn't helping anyone here, including the ridiculously oft-insinuated point that 31/31/31/31/31/31 is somehow less likely than 2/24/6/31/28/8 or something.
I think you'd have a hard time backing up the 99% number, even if AR cloning is very common. At least pretend to be reasonable.
And, y'know, it's possible to trade for Japanese movie Darkrai.
Shoddy won't give you max IVs with any Hidden Power. HP Fighting 70 is 31/31/30/30/30/30, just like it should be. Misinformation isn't helping anyone here, including the ridiculously oft-insinuated point that 31/31/31/31/31/31 is somehow less likely than 2/24/6/31/28/8 or something.
I think you'd have a hard time backing up the 99% number, even if AR cloning is very common. At least pretend to be reasonable.
And, y'know, it's possible to trade for Japanese movie Darkrai.
Okay, seriously... what the fuck?
merubin, I'm not kidding. Nearly every single trader has had their Pokemon cloned with AR. I'm being 100% reasonable.
Pneuma, Gamefreak didn't allow us to GTS clone either. It was an unintended glitch.
Pneuma, Gamefreak didn't allow us to GTS clone either. It was an unintended glitch.
My bad I thought you were using that to say that the GTS cloning was "legit" lol.
Say there are 500 people trading Pokemon on Smogon, just as an example. If you can find 5 of them who don't clone using AR, you're now objectively wrong. Now, try lowering that percentage to 95. Now you need to find 25 people. Much harder to do. Still an impressive percentage to bandy about in a debate. You lose nothing by being reasonable, just lower the chances that someone who's a little too bored and ornery will make you look like an idiot by tracking down only 5 people.