Taunt looks like a good move, good idea. I'd slash it in the last slot. I'm also still debating whether Bulk Up Talonflame wants to be more physically defensive, since the special bulk isn't anything exceptional as McGurr pointed out. I found it to be useful in certain situations, though, so I don't know. More thoughts on this would be great.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
[COMPLETED] Talonflame
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
There were some niche situations where the Special Defense does help out, but if you feel confident with more defense (hell even more Speed) works very well. For example with the Substitute set you probably want more SpD. I personally have been using the SpD spread myself on Bulk Up Talonflame just fine and it really is nice overall. I seriously underestimated Talonflame until I ran Taunt + BU. That shit is fucking scary because it can prevent Stealth Rock from getting on the field even longer.
I did use this set in Pokebank OU, but the premise is almost the same in non-Pokebank. If anything it's probably a little more effective since the only Stealth Rock users that are good are limited to Tyranitar, Mega Aggron, and... yeah...
Why exactly is CB Talonflame only running 60 Speed? The main priority of the Choice Band set (to me anyways) is revenge killing, which places a much higher importance on Speed than bulk. I get why you'd only run 60 Speed on Bulk Up and I guess SD, but Choice Band really wants extra Speed. Jolly Excadrill is a pretty bad jump-point to me because all you do with CB Talonflame is spam Brave Bird anyways, and offensive Excadrill doesn't want to take a Brave Bird anyways:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 177-209 (48.8 - 57.7%)
Outspeeding Jolly Mega Kangaskhan is really important to me, especially because it's both on its preview and really common. With only 60 Speed, Talonflame has no hope in revenge killing it, which it can do fairly easily after some prior damage:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 235-277 (66.7 - 78.6%)
To outrun Jolly Mega Kangaskhan, you need 164 Speed. It's also nice to be able to outrun Mega Pinsir so that it can't pick you off if you're in a tight situation where you need take Stealth Rock damage in order to revenge it. It's not as necessary because 1. Mega Pinsir isn't nearly as threatening as Mega Kangaskhan and 2. because Talonflame can live an unboosted Quick Attack after Stealth Rock (though it will die immediately afterwards to Brave Bird recoil):
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 129-153 (41.7 - 49.5%)
This is a calc with 208 Speed, which is how much you need to outrun Jolly Mega Pinsir. Still, it's probably worth mentioning somewhere in the analysis/preview that 208 Speed outruns it because Talonflame is about as solid of a Mega Pinsir answer as you can get for an offensive team.
tl;dr—164 Speed>60 Speed on CB Talonflame for Jolly Mega Kanga, but a mention of 208 Speed for Mega Pinsir would be cool as well
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 177-209 (48.8 - 57.7%)
Outspeeding Jolly Mega Kangaskhan is really important to me, especially because it's both on its preview and really common. With only 60 Speed, Talonflame has no hope in revenge killing it, which it can do fairly easily after some prior damage:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 235-277 (66.7 - 78.6%)
To outrun Jolly Mega Kangaskhan, you need 164 Speed. It's also nice to be able to outrun Mega Pinsir so that it can't pick you off if you're in a tight situation where you need take Stealth Rock damage in order to revenge it. It's not as necessary because 1. Mega Pinsir isn't nearly as threatening as Mega Kangaskhan and 2. because Talonflame can live an unboosted Quick Attack after Stealth Rock (though it will die immediately afterwards to Brave Bird recoil):
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 129-153 (41.7 - 49.5%)
This is a calc with 208 Speed, which is how much you need to outrun Jolly Mega Pinsir. Still, it's probably worth mentioning somewhere in the analysis/preview that 208 Speed outruns it because Talonflame is about as solid of a Mega Pinsir answer as you can get for an offensive team.
tl;dr—164 Speed>60 Speed on CB Talonflame for Jolly Mega Kanga, but a mention of 208 Speed for Mega Pinsir would be cool as well
Sorry for being late guys, i have been busy the last few days. Anyway, on to the comments:
- About slashing Taunt on the BU set: DONE
- About putting enough Speed to outrun Jolly Mega Kangaskhan on the CB set: DONE
- About mentioning 208 Speed to outrun Jolly Mega Pinsir on the CB set: DONE
- About giving to all sets enough Speed to outrun Jolly Mega Kangaskhan: PENDING
I don't think that BU Talonflame needs enough Speed to outrun Jolly Mega Kangaskan, as by the time that it comes in Talonflame will already have gotten a couple of boosts and should have no problem with Kangaskhan regardless of which goes first. Outprioritizing Mega Kangaskhan in order to revenge kill it is nice, but revenge killing is not the primary goal of the BU set, and the extra special bulk has been really useful from my experience.
As for putting enough Speed to outrun Jolly Mega Kangaskhan on the SD set, i am up for doing it if i see enough people supporting it.
- About slashing Taunt on the BU set: DONE
- About putting enough Speed to outrun Jolly Mega Kangaskhan on the CB set: DONE
- About mentioning 208 Speed to outrun Jolly Mega Pinsir on the CB set: DONE
- About giving to all sets enough Speed to outrun Jolly Mega Kangaskhan: PENDING
I don't think that BU Talonflame needs enough Speed to outrun Jolly Mega Kangaskan, as by the time that it comes in Talonflame will already have gotten a couple of boosts and should have no problem with Kangaskhan regardless of which goes first. Outprioritizing Mega Kangaskhan in order to revenge kill it is nice, but revenge killing is not the primary goal of the BU set, and the extra special bulk has been really useful from my experience.
As for putting enough Speed to outrun Jolly Mega Kangaskhan on the SD set, i am up for doing it if i see enough people supporting it.
Last edited:
In the first set you have this: "evs: 94 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe<br />" so... its 92 or 96 in the HP? or i missing something?.
For the Choice Band set, why not instead of the Will O Wisp or Tailwind for the 4th move, put Roost? Overall, it increases the longevity of Talonflame and I believe it'll have more utility than the other two moves as since the Choice Band set is the revenge killer, there are few times when you would be able to set up with Tailwind / Will O Wisp.
Tailwind and Will-O-Wisp are more like last ditch efforts for Talonflame in the event that it needs to be sacrificed. I mean, even Steel Wing isn't mentioned and Steel Wing is one of Talonflame's other options of bypassing threats such as Aerodactyl and Tyranitar (granted Tyranitar gets worn out from U-turn).
I'm not saying Roost is a bad option if only for longevity purposes, but it's better to do something like Wish passing.
According to the research thread, Natural Gift has been buffed by 20 BP for all Berries, which means that with Salac Berry you get a 100 BP Fighting move and with Liechi Berry you get a 100 BP Grass move. Check this:
- +2 252+ Atk Talonflame Seed Bomb (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 240-284 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 252+ Atk Talonflame Seed Bomb (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 322-380 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 252+ Atk Talonflame Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 332-392 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
- +2 252+ Atk Talonflame Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 644-760 (159.4 - 188.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I noticed that as well. Keeping in mind that Heatran is still 3 weeks away, Liechi Berry + Natural Gift absolutely deserves an AC mention for wrecking Talonflame's 2 arch-enemies, TTar and Rotom-W, having a 44% chance to OHKO each of them after SR. The nice thing is that even if you don't have to use it, Talon's easy to get into low HP to activate the berry and gain the +1 boost late game.
However, I wouldn't slash it because it's rather gimmicky, it eats up your item slot and a moveslot, and both are still best left to your teammates *coughExcadrillcough*.
I didn't see Gastrodon mentioned once, who actually is really good for a partner just based on typing alone. Gastrodon resists everything that Talonflame is weak too (hell downright immune to Water and Electric) while Talonflame is x4 resistant to Grass. They're definitely a cool pair.
Talonflame really likes FWG core. Rotom-W or Gastrodon for the Water-type (or Starmie, as it also works decently) and a solid Grass-type (spinblockers or something like Mega Venusaur). Also, I found Mega Aggron to shockingly be a decent partner with Talonflame, though it is a bit rusty in some ways.
</ramble>
Talonflame really likes FWG core. Rotom-W or Gastrodon for the Water-type (or Starmie, as it also works decently) and a solid Grass-type (spinblockers or something like Mega Venusaur). Also, I found Mega Aggron to shockingly be a decent partner with Talonflame, though it is a bit rusty in some ways.
</ramble>
I would definitely second gastrodon as talonflame's partners. Not only do they cover each other's weaknesses very well, gastrodon is more or less the PERFECT counter to Rotom-w
See, the problem with most rotom-w checks is that it usually just spams volt switch, thus you lose momentum and your opponent gets a safe switch in to a hard hitter of his/her choice. Any ground type that can prevent that doesn't take hydro pump too nicely. Gastrodon is both. It is immune to both STABs, can toxic rotom-w, and doesn't care much about WoW. Imo the greatest defensive check to rotom-w, superb partner to talonflame overall.
See, the problem with most rotom-w checks is that it usually just spams volt switch, thus you lose momentum and your opponent gets a safe switch in to a hard hitter of his/her choice. Any ground type that can prevent that doesn't take hydro pump too nicely. Gastrodon is both. It is immune to both STABs, can toxic rotom-w, and doesn't care much about WoW. Imo the greatest defensive check to rotom-w, superb partner to talonflame overall.
With Natural Gift, wouldn't Acrobatics also become a viable option over Brave Bird? I think that might be worth mentioning somewhere, too, if Natural Gift is going to be considered.
Not having a reliable Flying attack unless you use Natural Gift sucks and makes Acrobatics a gimmick, so it's only getting an OO mention at best.
don't know if it means much but was messing around with calculations and saw that with a Jolly Nature and 144 speed allows you to outspeed mega Lucario and can OHKO it with Flare Blitz as long as you have more then 128 Attack Evs
so anything over 128 Attack and 144 Speed Jolly Nature can outpace and OHKO Jolly Mega Lucario with Flare Blitz here are the calculations
128 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
or if it invest its leftover EVs into defense bump it up to 132 attack like so
132 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 6 HP / 6 Def Mega Lucario: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
also here is the damage calculation for what Extreme speed would do at +2 with no HP or defensive EVs on Talonflame
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 250-295 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so anything over 128 Attack and 144 Speed Jolly Nature can outpace and OHKO Jolly Mega Lucario with Flare Blitz here are the calculations
128 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
or if it invest its leftover EVs into defense bump it up to 132 attack like so
132 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 6 HP / 6 Def Mega Lucario: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
also here is the damage calculation for what Extreme speed would do at +2 with no HP or defensive EVs on Talonflame
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 250-295 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I commented that too, but no ones responding too us Basics :P.
All things considered, it's unlikely that it would be necessary since Talonflame is mostly using Brave Bird and Flare Blitz, which cause recoil anyway. Nonetheless it's a nice thing to have~
I noticed the Bulk Up Talonflame has 212 HP EVs, giving it 350 HP which is divisible by 2 (Stealth Rock). Might I suggest 224 HP EVs instead? This gives 353 HP, which is both not a SR number but also a Substitute number. Also, keeping the Special Defense isn't a bad idea against opponents like Togekiss, where you can Taunt to prevent status / boosting moves and take uninvested special attacks better.