I would rather tar ran Roar > Twave was my problem with it.
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Gen 6 Creative / Underrated Uber Sets : V3 (No Gimmicks plz)
- Thread starter Inspirited
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I just like bein mexican but it's a legit slash; twave lets u beat it if it stays in and attacks again instead of geo-ing instead of being able to burn the berry and come in again later, and it also helps exca guarantee an RK on it
Yveltal @ Leftovers
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 48 HP / 236 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Substitute
- Disable
I don't think it needs Roost as Oblivion Wing + Leftovers gradually restore as much as Roost does, anyways, EVs are for Seismic Toss not breaking sub and just outspeeding neutral nature base 95s.
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 48 HP / 236 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Substitute
- Disable
I don't think it needs Roost as Oblivion Wing + Leftovers gradually restore as much as Roost does, anyways, EVs are for Seismic Toss not breaking sub and just outspeeding neutral nature base 95s.
The main issue I have with Swords Dance Arceus-Water is that you can't really use it as a Ho-Oh switch-in due to now being crippled by burns. Also Ferrothorn just eats it for breakfast (CM can at least cripple with WoW) which is kind of lame if facing stall.
I also think Roar is better on that Roseli TTar set in case you're up against a SubGeo Xerneas.
I also think Roar is better on that Roseli TTar set in case you're up against a SubGeo Xerneas.
Name one not named Ho-Oh that can OHKO-2HKO the majority of the tier.
Blaziken and Double-Edge Mega Pinsir. :D
No but seriously Staraptor is pretty bad, if Ho-Oh can't fill your Brave Bird needs then something is probably wrong with your team.
Roar is better vs subgeo, Twave is better if it's not sub as it guarantees exca can break through it even if it doesn't geo that turn. Whichever you choose is personal preference.
I can concede with Mega-Blaziken as a replacement (Flare Blitz=Brave Bird) but he takes a mega slot that can be better used by Gengar or Mewtwo. Same for Mega-Pinsir, and iirc it is illegal to have Double Edge with Quick Attack, and Quick Attack is essential on every offensive set of Pinsir's. Mega Blaziken is piss weak when compared to Staraptor as well, and he has severe 4MSS with his last moveslot being a toss-up between Knock Off and Stone Edge which is basically a decision of whether you want to be walled by Ho-Oh or Giratina. Like I said in an earlier post Ho-Oh needs Defog/Rapid Spin support with the latter being difficult to provide, and unlike Ho-Oh Staraptor just gives ZERO fucks about rocks unless it's HP is lower than 26%.
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I wasn't actually being too serious (hence the :D), the bigger point is that it doesn't matter whether or not Staraptor is a good Brave Bird spammer because it is not that great. Staraptor offers zero defensive utility because it dies to a stiff breeze and can't switch in on anything, it only deals about 3% more damage on average than CB Ho-Oh (unless you run Adamant but then you're missing out on one of Staraptor's best traits which is 100 Speed), it's pretty much worthless against offense, and most Stall and balanced teams generally do have Flying resists (Tar/Aegis/Dialga/Arceus-Electric/Zekrom/Arceus-Rock).
If you need a physically inclined wallbreaker there are plenty of better choices (Mega Blaziken, CB Ho-Oh, Mixed Zekrom, DD Groudon) who contribute way more to a team than Staraptor. If you need one that can trade itself against a Pokemon (which is all Staraptor will be doing) then Mega Gengar is much more reliable AND contributes more defensively AND lets you pick your target.
Also your replays are pretty terrible examples: 2 were against BP without a Flying resist, Minority was using Bug Arceus, Penguin let Giratina-O take 75% for no reason when he had a nice bird counter in Arceus-Rock, and no offense the team in the fifth replay wasn't that good.
Actually I've got a good thing to say about staraptor is it pairs amazingly with ekiller since it helps wear down the same checks a lot of the time, e.g. giratina-O, lando-t, etc. Whilst it's difficult to switch in, it's made up for by being difficult to switch in on. I prefer scarf because that fitted the build style I made (cloyster to spin, paired with ekiller and CB ho-oh). I could provide an importable here of the team, but I think staraptor is legitimately viable, since it helps wear down ekiller's checks versus balanace and at least HO isn't gonna set up on it easily.
staraptor isn't viable and never has been. even in past gens hyper offense couldn't ever afford giving up a slot for a pokemon which checked nothing defensively (let alone in this gen where you have even stronger and more threatening pokes); this is why pokemon like xerneas and darkrai are such great offensive pokemon: they check several things while being heavily threatening. i could possibily understand using a nuke if it was truly a nuke, but staraptor is easily checked by pokemon that fireburn mentioned. not to mention the fact that it's also sr weak and suicides quite easily. if you want a cool physically-based nuke combo, try something like sd arceus-ground + kangaskhan which actually have defined roles and niches and pair together quite well.
Something you seem to be brushing off is that Staraptor doesn't just spam Brave Bird, it has an equally powerful move called Double Edge that completely fucks one of its type resists. It also has another move called Close Combat which has the same BP as its STAB attacks to demolish nearly all of the tier's Flying/Normal resists. You say the replays suck, but I agree; they do suck. However something that clearly shows in every single one of them is Staraptor's surprise factor in virtue of its underrated tier status. You named a couple of Flying resists, but I don't see why you think they have merit because 6/7 of them are OHKOd by Staraptor's secondary STAB or CC. TTar, Dialga, and Arceus-Rock are OHKOd after a layer of Spikes by CC, and Arceus-Electric and Zekrom are OHKOd by Double Edge. Like I said in my mini analysis, this bird has one fucking switch-in and that switch-in is a complete shitmon. Not to mention, Staraptor can completely work around Aegi with U-turn to get a free switch-in to an appropriate Aegislash check.
Now as far as competition goes, the mons you mentioned have obvious flaws that their users can admit to. Mega-Blaze is a really good pokemon, but like I said in my first reply to you Blaziken has severe 4MSS that force it's users to choose between hitting Ho-Oh or hitting the Gira forms, and again I reiterate that Blaziken takes up a crucial Mega slot that can be used by a much more useful pokemon such as Mega-Gengar or Mewtwo. MixKrom is also a great pokemon, but as a user of MixKrom myself I must say that the amount of 50/50s when using it borderline ridiculous. DD Donner is not a wallbreaker and can't even come close to breaking Giratina or Lugia. Whilst it seems to be the topic of debate of whether CB Ho-Oh entirely outclasses Staraptor as a BB Spammer, it in fact does not because Ho-Oh absolutely requires hazard control via spinning them away or defogging them away, with the latter being a double-edged sword as it ruins some 2HKOs for Ho-Oh. Staraptor has over Ho-Oh the ability to appease hazards, and of course this means that Staraptor fits onto spikes-stacking Hyper-Offense. And I also don't see how Staraptor "doesn't contribute" to a team. It fucks up walls like no other, frees a mega slot, and has a precious Ground Immunity that seems to be necessary to every team in XY ubers. Staraptor does EXACTLY what a wallbreaker is supposed to do, and that is to offer support by removing checks to a team's sweepers. And unlike Ho-Oh who needs obligatory Defog/Spin support which IMO limits teambuilding, Staraptor can wallbreak independently how a wallbreaker is supposed to. I also saw that you mentioned how Staraptor loses out on "one of its best traits which is 100 Speed", and I completely disagree. Staraptor IS NOT a cleaner. It's a wallbreaker and just like every other wallbreaker, he runs a +offense nature. To name a few, there are SD Ray, MixKrom, SpecsOgre, and Yveltal, all which perform better with +offense natures. Because wallbreakers are meant to kill walls and nothing but walls, they don't need the +Speed nature that allow them to hit offensive mons first because their highest-priority targets are slow, bulky walls and not speedy attackers.
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Furthermore, many of the things you said in your second paragraph are flat out wrong (DD Groudon does beat Lugia/Tina with Lum, Blaziken does not have 4MSS as it can still overpower Ho-Oh or a weakened Giratina-O without Stone Edge/Knock Off with either SD or Stealth Rock) and you more or less ignored dice's post which highlights the biggest flaw in Staraptor: zero defensive synergy. This is a huge problem in a metagame where role compression is so important. Something like Deoxys-A gets away with having no defenses because it has basically no checks (Raptor definitely has checks) and can act as a revenge killer with base 150 Speed + ExtremeSpeed, or it can be a supporter by setting up entry hazards. Staraptor can't switch into anything, its Ground immunity is useless in practice because most Grounds have high Defense or are faster and pack Rock moves, and it has no utility outside of suiciding itself into something else.
Anyways enough about Staraptor, its unviable in Ubers and I don't want to derail the thread too much.
Alright, Staraptor is officially not making it into the op.
What should be discussed next is the Metal Burst Dialga which is one I am in favor of personally. I will be using it over the next couple of weeks just to confirm or bust my theorymonning.
What should be discussed next is the Metal Burst Dialga which is one I am in favor of personally. I will be using it over the next couple of weeks just to confirm or bust my theorymonning.
Darkrai @ Life Orb or Focus Sash
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Thunder Wave or Will-O-Wisp
- Dark Void
Uses of Thunder Wave:
generally spreading paralysis is very nice and dicks with the opponent. If you run Sash and keep hazards off the field, you can TWave and Dark Void things guaranteed. Depending on your prediction skills and ability to read the opponent's team, you can smartly cripple at least two mons. For example, instead of Dark Voiding an incoming Mega Mewtwo Y, you can cripple it with Thunder Wave, and if the Mewtwo does not have Focus Blast, you can survive an Aura Sphere, a FIre Blast or an Ice Beam and cripple it with TWave if it's at full health (Dark Pulse will only kill MMY 6.3% of the time full health, and they might have a tad of HP investment too). You can cripple Scarf Xerneas that tries to eat a Dark Pulse or absorb a Dark Void with Sleep Talk, therefore keeping your Dark Void for something else. Also, instead of having the opponent sleep fodder something useless so that Darkrai can't check another Pokemon later on, you retain your advantage and keep the sleep to check something else.
Uses of Will-O-Wisp:
whilst usually less useful than Thunder Wave, Wisp still has its uses. you can burn Scarf Zekrom, burn switchins trying to absorb the Dark Void and make them take heavy residual damage. it also comes in useful if say Extremekiller tries to set up on you post-Dark Void, and you can outspeed Arceus-Ground and burn it too. Wisping fairy switchins to make them take residual damage works too. Spreading status = good.
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Thunder Wave or Will-O-Wisp
- Dark Void
Uses of Thunder Wave:
generally spreading paralysis is very nice and dicks with the opponent. If you run Sash and keep hazards off the field, you can TWave and Dark Void things guaranteed. Depending on your prediction skills and ability to read the opponent's team, you can smartly cripple at least two mons. For example, instead of Dark Voiding an incoming Mega Mewtwo Y, you can cripple it with Thunder Wave, and if the Mewtwo does not have Focus Blast, you can survive an Aura Sphere, a FIre Blast or an Ice Beam and cripple it with TWave if it's at full health (Dark Pulse will only kill MMY 6.3% of the time full health, and they might have a tad of HP investment too). You can cripple Scarf Xerneas that tries to eat a Dark Pulse or absorb a Dark Void with Sleep Talk, therefore keeping your Dark Void for something else. Also, instead of having the opponent sleep fodder something useless so that Darkrai can't check another Pokemon later on, you retain your advantage and keep the sleep to check something else.
Uses of Will-O-Wisp:
whilst usually less useful than Thunder Wave, Wisp still has its uses. you can burn Scarf Zekrom, burn switchins trying to absorb the Dark Void and make them take heavy residual damage. it also comes in useful if say Extremekiller tries to set up on you post-Dark Void, and you can outspeed Arceus-Ground and burn it too. Wisping fairy switchins to make them take residual damage works too. Spreading status = good.
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Just to put what I told lustrous here and respond to his examples a bit:
Will-O-Wisp just doesn't do it for me. The only switch in it hits is Zekrom who isn't nearly dominant enough to warrant the move over Taunt to bring very nice support to HO teams or the sweeping / wall breaking potential Nasty Plot brings to the plate.
Thunder Wave is better, but still not worth running imo. Out of the two LustrousPalkia mentioned that it hits, Choice Scarf Xerneas has a lot of trouble coming in on Darkrai anyways due to Sludge Bomb doing massive amounts of damage or OHKOing Xern with a high roll + Poison. If Scarf Xerneas comes in on a forced Dark Void, then you cant paralyze it anyways and it will just Sleep Talk and have a 33-67% chance to OHKO Darkrai. As far as Mewtwo goes, if I have something that i wont get much use out of in a game, I will sleep / fodder it before switching in Mewtwo (MMY) since it will have a lot of leeway to do work and will seldom be useless in any scenario. I know Insomnia wakes you up after Mega Evolving, but I would rather not risk having Mewtwo eat a Dark Pulse if I don't have to. Once again, I think Taunt and Nasty Plot are much much better than TWave on rai.
Will-O-Wisp just doesn't do it for me. The only switch in it hits is Zekrom who isn't nearly dominant enough to warrant the move over Taunt to bring very nice support to HO teams or the sweeping / wall breaking potential Nasty Plot brings to the plate.
Thunder Wave is better, but still not worth running imo. Out of the two LustrousPalkia mentioned that it hits, Choice Scarf Xerneas has a lot of trouble coming in on Darkrai anyways due to Sludge Bomb doing massive amounts of damage or OHKOing Xern with a high roll + Poison. If Scarf Xerneas comes in on a forced Dark Void, then you cant paralyze it anyways and it will just Sleep Talk and have a 33-67% chance to OHKO Darkrai. As far as Mewtwo goes, if I have something that i wont get much use out of in a game, I will sleep / fodder it before switching in Mewtwo (MMY) since it will have a lot of leeway to do work and will seldom be useless in any scenario. I know Insomnia wakes you up after Mega Evolving, but I would rather not risk having Mewtwo eat a Dark Pulse if I don't have to. Once again, I think Taunt and Nasty Plot are much much better than TWave on rai.
Simply put lacking Nasty Plot (or Taunt) means you hamper your ability to pressures arbitary defogers, Darkrai fits naturally onto more offensive builds who like having its presence both when it comes to checking offensive threats and, as i mentioned, pressure hazard removers. Darkrai also appreciates not being Defog prone as it needs SR to pressure many checks like Ho-oh. All in all Nasty Plot goes well along with hazards support and the structure of teams Darkrai belong on; any other move will ultimately remove that part of its niche and is therefore not suitable.
Regarding Metal Burst Dialga- the idea seems cool on paper as Dialga is rarely OHKOd, however it relies on being slower than the opponent which can actually be an issue since you more or less have to give up Fire Blast that hits slow, bulky steels (see Scizor and Ferro). As it usually turns out with Dialga, it simply does what it does too well to deviate from standard sets.
Regarding Metal Burst Dialga- the idea seems cool on paper as Dialga is rarely OHKOd, however it relies on being slower than the opponent which can actually be an issue since you more or less have to give up Fire Blast that hits slow, bulky steels (see Scizor and Ferro). As it usually turns out with Dialga, it simply does what it does too well to deviate from standard sets.
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Well the way I tend to try to use it is to not just sleep whatever with wanton abandon, if you can put their Defogger to sleep that works nicely in terms of preventing it. I do understand that it's not the most optimal moveset, but it's a lot of fun to use and status from unexpected mons can really screw an opponent sometimes :). I disagree with Wreckdra in that sometimes you don't want to fodder something to sleep, you want to make a smart switchin with your MMY or your Sleep Talk Scarfer or whatever so that you can absorb it and still function to a degree instead of just being asleep, and that's when you can get screwed by a well timed Thunder Wave (or Will-O-Wisp).
However, I learned long ago that arguing with Hack over something tends to end up in getting destroyed and ultimately convinced otherwise lol
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wouldn't Timid be better in this case? With lefties you are not doing much wall breaking as you are just being annoying, might as well outspeed other pokes like Kyurem-W, Rayquaza, positive 90s, etc
Well, there's nothing relevant to outspeed imo, Rayquaza is usually Adamant, Kyurem is usually Modest specs or scarfed which outspeeds anyways. Since we're discussing Yveltal's speed ima drop by and say Naive Life Orb is bad and shouldn't be used pls dont use it imo tbh, it's weak and u dont really outspeed much baring the so common Jolly and Timid Groudon / Kyogre.
Furthermore, many of the things you said in your second paragraph are flat out wrong (DD Groudon does beat Lugia/Tina with Lum, Blaziken does not have 4MSS as it can still overpower Ho-Oh or a weakened Giratina-O without Stone Edge/Knock Off with either SD or Stealth Rock) and you more or less ignored dice's post which highlights the biggest flaw in Staraptor: zero defensive synergy. This is a huge problem in a metagame where role compression is so important. Something like Deoxys-A gets away with having no defenses because it has basically no checks (Raptor definitely has checks) and can act as a revenge killer with base 150 Speed + ExtremeSpeed, or it can be a supporter by setting up entry hazards. Staraptor can't switch into anything, its Ground immunity is useless in practice because most Grounds have high Defense or are faster and pack Rock moves, and it has no utility outside of suiciding itself into something else.
Anyways enough about Staraptor, its unviable in Ubers and I don't want to derail the thread too much.
Eh all three STaggers are crushed by Brave Bird so if they predict wrong it's gg. They can only trap if Staraptor has already killed something with Close Combat in which case it's not too bad right? Besides when it comes to defensive synergy Gothitelle and Wobbuffet have little defensive value either and Gengar isn't much better. That Staraptor suicides itself into something else is an issue but then that's what wallbreakers do right, things SD Ray does the same thing set up weaken something die let teammate sweep.
That said I don't see why anyone would use Staraptor over Ho Oh, there are only six slots on a team and using a Pokemon with zero defensive synergy comes with big opportunity cost. The STaggers are unique because they can't be replaced, but if the point of Staraptor is to break walls then why not use Ho Oh AND something else that breaks walls but still have some defensive utility such as Darkrai?
you can use star+ekiller+ho-oh though, just add like a cloyster/palkia/something else and ur fine
Dialga @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 244 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Draco Meteor
- Stealth Rock
- Roar / Toxic
This is a great Dialga set that can take on stall very well, as well as full-filling it's job as the most reliable Stealth Rocker in the tier. It's mainly meant to pressure stall things like Kyogre's Water Spout and Ho-oh's Sacred Fires, and just rest off all of the damage taken. Draco Meteor is here because it is a powerfull STAB move and it allows Dialga to better check Palkia. And in the last slot u can choose either roar, if u want to prevent other mons from setting up on Dialga, or Toxic to wear down things like Lugia, support Arceus forms and others. Other attacking move options can be Thunder, as it allows Dialga to better check Kyogre and Fire Blast to kill things like Scizor and Ferrothorn wich can be very annoying.
(Thanks to ApplepieFTW for the set.)
Here is a replay of Applepie vs Hack using this set to great success: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-151884123
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 244 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Draco Meteor
- Stealth Rock
- Roar / Toxic
This is a great Dialga set that can take on stall very well, as well as full-filling it's job as the most reliable Stealth Rocker in the tier. It's mainly meant to pressure stall things like Kyogre's Water Spout and Ho-oh's Sacred Fires, and just rest off all of the damage taken. Draco Meteor is here because it is a powerfull STAB move and it allows Dialga to better check Palkia. And in the last slot u can choose either roar, if u want to prevent other mons from setting up on Dialga, or Toxic to wear down things like Lugia, support Arceus forms and others. Other attacking move options can be Thunder, as it allows Dialga to better check Kyogre and Fire Blast to kill things like Scizor and Ferrothorn wich can be very annoying.
(Thanks to ApplepieFTW for the set.)
Here is a replay of Applepie vs Hack using this set to great success: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-151884123
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^ this set is fucking good go use it
In addition to what pbr already said, roar also makes sure gothitelle doesn't trap you. When it comes to team option you can use things that take advantage of having a rocks user already, such as spikes ferrothorn. Dialga walls ho-oh lacking eq which is nice. Overall rest dialga is a great mon perhaps one of the best pp stallers that you can switch in on random moves to just wear down the pp. It also does well vs stall2 if you can catch it with a para from thunder, which means its much easier to deal with.
Also watch this replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-168549674, not only is it an excellent example of f0xy v0x (who I believe to be user Steeljackal<3) admitting that rest dialga is a fucking epic set (★F0xy V0x: rest dialga is actually ★F0xy V0x: a Pretty Good Set), but it also showcases how much of an advantage Piexplode would have had, had he used rest on his dialga as Steel would not have been able to kill the dialga except for with his gliscor. It would also have had a cool spikes partner in klefki. Rest dialga is epiccc
Oh and in that replay, I lost because I didn't expect full stall/didn't have a dedicated stallbreaker but the point is rest dialga put in hella work :]
In addition to what pbr already said, roar also makes sure gothitelle doesn't trap you. When it comes to team option you can use things that take advantage of having a rocks user already, such as spikes ferrothorn. Dialga walls ho-oh lacking eq which is nice. Overall rest dialga is a great mon perhaps one of the best pp stallers that you can switch in on random moves to just wear down the pp. It also does well vs stall2 if you can catch it with a para from thunder, which means its much easier to deal with.
Also watch this replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-168549674, not only is it an excellent example of f0xy v0x (who I believe to be user Steeljackal<3) admitting that rest dialga is a fucking epic set (★F0xy V0x: rest dialga is actually ★F0xy V0x: a Pretty Good Set), but it also showcases how much of an advantage Piexplode would have had, had he used rest on his dialga as Steel would not have been able to kill the dialga except for with his gliscor. It would also have had a cool spikes partner in klefki. Rest dialga is epiccc
Oh and in that replay, I lost because I didn't expect full stall/didn't have a dedicated stallbreaker but the point is rest dialga put in hella work :]
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