Metagame Cross Evolution [Leader's Choice]

BUG: When a Pokémon that gets a type change due to its cross evolution is switched out, it erroneously displays as its original type (while functioning as the intended type). You may think “So what? As long as the type functions correctly who cares what it shows?” Well then you’re ignoring the fact that changed types are displayed for a reason, and having it switch mid battle due to switching out can throw people off and turn a match on its head by causing someone to inadvertently pick the wrong move. Need a replay? Just pull any replay that lasts more than a few turns and you’ll be bound to see the display glitch in action
 
Ok wanted to give some meta impressions after playing on the ladder a bit and experiencing a wide arrange of teams / mons that I felt stood out to me.


Gyarados (Gligar)
Ability: Intimidate / Moxie
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Acrobatics
- Roost / Taunt

This set is fucking busted and fits on so many different type of teams its not even funny. Gligar x Gyara has such good stats, moves, and typing to enable it to come in and sweep so many teams lacking a solid Unaware mon such as Type: Null, Gligar, or physdef Dusclops. I usually prefer Intimidate over Moxie to offer more setup opportunities and enables Gligar to act as a check to opposing Gligar which is always nice, but Moxie does have its perks in terms of helping to snowball much easier. Tbh this mon heavily warps the metagame with just the set alone enough for me to wanna consider a ban even given the higher threshold for this tier just due to how much it warps the tier around itself. I have seen mons run Ice coverage even when they shoudn't (think Spritzee x Milo or any Type: Null set just to check this thing which really is saying something).


Vivillon (Haunter) @ Leftovers / Ghostium Z / Flynium Z
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Hurricane
- Hypnosis
- Shadow Ball

Imo this is the most optimal set to run on this thing even despite the drop in accuracy from not running Sleep Powder. Haunter really wants both QD and Hurricane to provide it that broken STAB combo while also enabling it to act as one of the most threatening setup sweepers in the tier. You still get a good 78% accuracy sleep move for what its worth. I especially been liking to abuse Haunter thanks to its immunity / resistance to common priority in Mach Punch, Extreme Speed, and Triage Giga Drain which is really nice for a frail setup sweeper of it's nature.

Anyways I don't wanna go to in depth of all my favorite sets and stuff so I will link some fun teams I have been using so that others can try out.


Super Screens


Full Stall


Electabuzz Balance

Have Fun!
I agree. DD taunt is by far Gligyra's best offensive set. I usually run a more bulky spread (248HP) with just Acro. Taunt + Roost is so damn good and with the extra bulk investment it makes setting up even easier. Though, I'll like to hear your full opinion on Gligar and Gyarados. Since Gyarados isn't neccesarily "busted" on any other pokemon, at least not to the extent of Gligar who's by far its best abuser. Likewise with Gligar, any other set it has (say Barbaracle, Hitmontop or Quagsire for examples) are also not "busted" either. And I think without them, a lot of shit would run rampant and lead to even more bans(like Magmar x Gallade, scyther x Breloom, type:null -> linoone etc but I'll talk about type:null soon enough....).

In my view, Gligar x Gyarados(offensively speaking) is not busted. As Its best counters/checks (from a defensive standpoint) consist of pokemon that have immense amount of physical bulk(which is quite easy to achieve in crossevo), and / or can adapt to both its STABs(Acro / EQ) + Taunt. Pokemon like Doublade(Flygon or Dnite w/Dtail), Wailmer(Toxapex w/clear smog & it can fish for burns), Rhydon(Dragonite w/Dtail), Gligar itself(Persian-alola with Rocky Helmet + Foul play), and its best counter by far is Magneton(mainly flygon). This is just off the top of my head, and all of which are relatively common and easy to fit onto teams. From an offensive standpoint, you also have Magneton(who's still its best counter w/hydreigon or Vivi), Electabuzz(preferably Vivi imo, but i suppose hydreigon can work too...), Piloswine(Tsareena, Gallade, Scolipede), rain offense etc etc.

Gligyra is an relatively easy pokemon to check or counter. You have absolutely no reason to NOT have at least a check or two. Especially with all the crazy and splashable sets that are available. This makes it hard for me to decide rather or not if Gligyra is "truly broken" as a lot of people on the main server like to claim. And we already established that Gligar's other sets and Gyarados' other abusers aren't busted, it's just a combination of Gligar's excellent stats and movepool (as a base pokemon) coupled with the excellent boosts and ability from evolving into Gyarados.

One last thing, ice beam on Nullsire is absurd, sounds like an unnecessary attempt at beating Gligyra.

EDIT: Also, I just realized you have Haze on your Spritic who also happens to be your wincon. When you already have an unaware user (whom also has haze) so.... I'm a little confused there lol. Is Spritic suppose act as a physical pseudo unaware user? Also, as a tip, competitive actually helps beat Gligyra much easier. Or any intimidate user that might think they can setup or stall out spritic(Arcanine crevos comes to mind).
 
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I have next to no experience in this meta, so the following Wailmer set probably isn't all that great, but I've been enjoying it so far:

(
)

Volcarona (Wailmer) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Roost
- Scald
- Roar / Toxic

New Stats:

HP: 130 + 30 = 160
Atk: 85 - 25 = 60
Def: 35 + 10 = 45
SpA: 70 + 85 = 155
SpDef: 35 + 50 = 85
Spe: 60 + 40 = 100

EVs aren't optimized at all, but w/e atm. I'm using this as a fat Special tank that can Defog hazards away and either Roar out sweepers, or stall them with a combo of Toxic + Roost. Wailpex is definitely the better way of using Wailmer, but I see this as an offensive rendition of that thanks to a much higher Speed stat letting it outpace most fat Gligados, but more importantly, it's not passive at all with that massive 155 SpA. While it's a special tank, it also punishes physical attackers with Scald + Flame Body, making it a somewhat decent U-turn punisher. The main issue this set has that makes Pex the better donor is the still really low Defense stat, but even with that, I still find this fun to use.
 
great tier, certainly one of my favorite OMs

anyhow, just want to share a team that hit 1556 on ladder

hitmontop (Vullaby) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Foul Play
- Roost
- Rapid Spin
- U-turn

Deoxys-Attack @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Extreme Speed
- Superpower

reuniclus (Dusclops) (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Night Shade
- Recover
- Haze
- Toxic

breloom (Scyther) (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- U-turn
- Spore

milotic (Type: Null) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Facade
- Recover
- Toxic
- Roar

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Solganium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance
- Morning Sun
- Sunsteel Strike

190514

190518


have fun friends :psyglad:
 
I have been playing this mega game quite a bit,

I would suggest that don cross should be in A rank

Reason: There are several powerful setup sweepers in this meta and ditto along with a choice scarf is able to not only stop them but also counter sweep and is therefore effective against a large portion of the meta.

Here is a replay which can show ditto being used
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7crossevolution-961341951
 

G-Luke

Edgy Shit
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
I have been playing this mega game quite a bit,

I would suggest that don cross should be in A rank

Reason: There are several powerful setup sweepers in this meta and ditto along with a choice scarf is able to not only stop them but also counter sweep and is therefore effective against a large portion of the meta.

Here is a replay which can show ditto being used
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7crossevolution-961341951
All I see is a person being really dumb via replays. The amount of bad plays in the match is hilarious, and the icing was topped when the Chinchou didnt kill you or Haze the boosts away for no reason. I don't really see a reason why Ditto is so threatening, especially since the mons its copying usually have up to 3 times its HP stat.
 
All I see is a person being really dumb via replays. The amount of bad plays in the match is hilarious, and the icing was topped when the Chinchou didnt kill you or Haze the boosts away for no reason. I don't really see a reason why Ditto is so threatening, especially since the mons its copying usually have up to 3 times its HP stat.
Yeah, I was the opponent. I was super unfamiliar with the meta and had started playing it literally that day, so don’t use me as an example. :l

That said, Gligar-Bibarel is dope.
 
this thing tho

Volcarona (Clamperl) @ Deep Sea Tooth
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Roost
- Fiery Dance
- Surf

reaches 1816 spA after smashing and then smashes through their team. Yikes.
also not bad speed stat and should fit in most team types, particularly HOHOHOHO
if it isnt in the viability ranking it should be in something like A- or B+

edit: item doesnt work but still has 908 spA, maybe B- or C+ in ranking then
thats just my personal opinion dont say im writing stupid nominations.
 
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I might just be stupid and not know exactly how the metagame works, but I've been using a weird mon and I like it.

Hitmonlee (Cranidos) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Mach Punch


New Stats: 82/210/58/30/75/110

Mach Punch is mostly there b/c I needed a 4th move. I might replace it w/ HJK.
This thing's base stats are ridiculous. Its already good base 135 atk goes up a ridiculous 85 points (yes, the change is that drastic) to a base 210, while its speed goes up to a solid base 110. This means that, with a scarf, it outspeeds pretty much all of the unboosted metagame.
It also gets Reckless. Which pairs with Head Smash. After STAB and Reckless, Head Smash goes up to about 270 power. And since it outspeeds, like, everything that doesn't have a boost in speed, anything that doesn't have good defense and isn't a steel type is mutilated.
The issues I've had with it have to do with priority, boosters, and the fact that it's basically killing itself with its monstrous Head Smash. But other than that, I think it's pretty solid.
Then again, I'm also using a Shell Smash KrabbyCosta, so my opinion may not be valid. Just... food for thought, I guess.
 
typenull.gif

While we continue to make a decision on who the next Cross Evolution Tier Leader is, the OM Leadership has decided to suspect Type: Null! Type: Null has been on watch for a long time due to its insane BST, decent movepool and solid typing. Its primary defensive sets, Milotic, Chansey and Quagsire, give it insane levels of bulk that is practically unseen in any other metagame and solid abilities like Natural Cure and Unaware to boot, it's proven to be very difficult to break without breakers dedicated practically only to Type: Null. Its ability to force out most of the meta due to its bulk in combination with U-Turn also allows Type: Null to easily gain momentum against teams. While the defensive sets can be rather weak, Type: Null can also run offensive sets such as with Arcanine or Breloom rather effectively and should be considered as well.​

Type: Null will be allowed for the duration of the suspect test. The suspect test will last the remainder of the month, concluding on August 31st at 11pm EST.

Requirements:
The requirements to participate in the suspect voting are GXE of 78% in 30 games or more. More importantly, you will NOT need a new alt to ladder with. Any alt with the requirements will allow you to vote in this suspect test. However, you can only vote once for this suspect, so having multiple alts with the requirements will not help you.

Voting:
Voting will take place on the thread. Post your suspect requirements proof in this thread, with your vote. You will be eligible to vote as long as you have complied with the listed requirements, have provided a screenshot of said requirements, and have supplied proof that the alt is yours. You may post your opinion on the subject or what you will be voting, as this thread is not limited to posting reqs, but please refrain from attempting to manipulate the vote.
A super-majority of 60% ban is required for Type: Null to be banned from Cross Evolution.

Tagging The Immortal
 
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191395


Time to rip this thing a new one.


Oh boy, I've wanted to take this thing on for SO long!

I'm going to be real with you all; Type: Null is easily the best Pokemon in Cross Evolution, no contest. Yes, I am saying this with Gligar in mind, and I stand by it to this day. You may have your own opinions on Gligar in Cross Evolution, but to me at least, Gligar acts as the the Primal Groudon of Cross Evolution; something that has to always be accounted for and properly checked before expecting any success in the tier. Gligar has the stats to work with several sets outside of its main set to bring success, but even with several sets that it can utilize, it is still manageable if you are smart and clever enough. As powerful as it is, it is still very much a balanced threat seeing that there is very clear counterplay against it that doesn't overcentralize the meta.

I am bringing this up because Type: Null takes what Gligar does in the meta and abuses it to an unbearable degree, becoming an overcentralizing if not utterly broken beast that dominates the tier. Although Gligar boasts a superstar set by Cross Evolving with Gyarados as well as potentially dawning some other useful Cross Evos for different yet highly-effective niches, Type: Null's unusually-high base stat lineup of 95/95/95/95/95/59 gives it the rare luxury of being able to take full advantage of almost every single Cross Evolution available and, in some cases, abuse them at a level near or even more than Gligar x Gyarados.


Let's go over just how much Type: Null is capable of by itself. Some of the sets that Type: Null can carry are simply not okay by any standards. Type: Null has many options for highly-offensive sets that, when left unattended, can tear open teams without much effort. It can take from the likes of Arcanine, Linoone, the Hitmons, Gyarados, Bibarel, Breloom or Barbaracle for dangerously effective physical sweeper sets. On the opposite side, it can take traits from Milotic, Volcarona, Noivern, Rampardos, Swoobat or the Eeveelutions to become horrifying special breakers that can tank most incoming attacks. All of these share the following in common: Ridiculously high attacking stats or setup potential, absurd defenses that no sweeper should have easy access to, and all having a different niche from one another that warrants running one set over the other. Give Gligar some credit here; it can only really nab a few sets to such caliber and only as a somewhat-predictable physical attacker, whereas Type: Null's options for immediate raw power just keep on going on and on with so much diversity that it's hard to keep up with.

But even then, we all know the offensive potential isn't the main problem with Type: Null; it's the outrageous defensive/utility sets that can be borderline impossible to break, if not seemingly broken. The list of exploitable advantages has almost no limit: Xatu for Magic Bounce and hazard control, Toxapex or Amoongus for crazy defenses and utility options plus Regenerator, Persian-Alola to wall almost any physical attack in existence, Hariyama to become an effective tank, Whimsicott for easy disruption, Frosslass to become Normal/Ghost, Salazzle to spread Toxic uncontested with Corrosion, any of the weather starters for consistent setup for the team, the list just goes on indefinitely! Hell, a good majority of the previously-listed sets that enable offense can be doubled up as defensive sets as well, making the list of stupidly-bulky sets grow even further.


However, among all of these possibilities listed, two of the most egregious sets out of all of them are Type: Null x Chansey (NullChan) and Type: Null x Quagsire (QuagNull). NullChan is a monster of a utility set that can heal its entire party back up with Wish and Heal Bell, is unfairly difficult to kill with its ludicrous 245/95/135 bulk to the point that it's nearly impossible to ever OHKO it without prior setup or damage unless you're Cross Evolving with something like Breloom or Gallade, and can easily pivot into its teammates with U-Turn or deal some consistent damage back with STAB Tri Attack. The thing is so bulky that you're almost required to run a boosting sweeper in order to easily take it down, and is practically immune to status due to Natural Cure. None of this is even factoring the option to run Softboiled for instant healing, Serene Grace to fish for hax, Calm Mind for sweeping, or any of Chansey's other useful attacks that could potentially be utilized.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, there's QuagNull, who is arguably (and in my personal opinion) the stupidest compared to the others and may be even dumber than NullChan. How stupid is QuagNull compared to most of the other choices listed? Well, Unaware utterly shuts down almost any form of setup, which is the main way to break past its crazy defenses, it keeps itself alive forever with Recover, remains painfully difficult to OHKO while healthy due to its fantastic 135/135/135 bulk, can spread around status like the common cold, and can even boost itself with Curse to become a snowballing pseudo-sweeper using its already-high Attack even without investment, all by itself. Unless your team has a dedicated Fighting-type nuke, consistent Toxic spreading, or a balls-to-the-wall Wallbreaker like Choice Band Krabby x Araquanid, QuagNull will put your team through absolute hell if not make some cases unwinnable. It is simply that difficult to take it down by normal means.


Hopefully after all of this, you can see exactly what the problem with Type: Null is and how unfairly-busted it is compared to Gligar. Once again, Gligar is very strong and easily a meta staple, but you typically know what to expect from it and can bring mons that act as blanket checks against it and usually come out on top in the end unless the Gligar set is completely out of the blue (which CAN happen, to be fair). It's a super powerful Pokemon that oversees the tier, but it is in every way manageable given its built-in restrictions. As such, you can always predict what the Gligar set would be and can prepare for it beforehand by proxy.

With Type: Null, you can never do that. The fact is that Type: Null has the raw stats to do almost anything and some of said sets can be done to equivalent or even greater effect of Gligar x Gyarados. Type: Null brings in a kind of pressure that is nonequivalent to that of Gligar, as now you have to prepare for any and all possible Type: Null sets that are strong enough to break down or outlive most teams in general, and you can never prepare for all of them at once. Not only that, but teams have absolutely no reason to not play Type: Null because of how much natural synergy it has with any conceivable playstyle among just about any single teammate. All of this means, by definition, that Type: Null is even more of a staple and threat than Gligar x Gyarados is.


I really can't think of any good reason why Type: Null should stay. Type: Null's unparalleled versitility, splashability, usefulness, and amount of pressure its mere presence can cause on the opponent and on general teambuilding make it way too good for Cross Evolution to the point that it's technically better than what's commonly referred to as the best thing in the tier. This is a Pokemon where you always have to guess in order to figure out what it's doing, and by then you most likely can't go up against it, and this isn't even accounting its teammates that further synergize with it. Unlike Gligar who is a threat that oversees the tier, Type: Null is a total monster that has a complete stranglehold over the tier.

This is a Pokemon that should have never been allowed to stay in a tier as long as it did. If you have any second thoughts on why Type: Null should have any reason to stay in this tier, I want you to take a moment to consider the following: If you're so good that you completely outclass Arceus in almost every conceivable way, by yourself, in a tier where Arceus is allowed, you know you have a problem.


Ban it, and don't look back; it doesn't deserve your sympathy.
 
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View attachment 191391

View attachment 191395

Time to rip this thing a new one.


Oh boy, I've wanted to take this thing on for SO long!

I'm going to be real with you all; Type: Null is easily the best Pokemon in Cross Evolution, no contest. Yes, I am saying this with Gligar in mind, and I stand by it to this day. You may have your own opinions on Gligar in Cross Evolution, but to me at least, Gligar acts as the the Primal Groudon of Cross Evolution; something that has to always be accounted for and properly checked before expecting any success in the tier. Gligar has the stats to work with several sets outside of its main set to bring success, but even with several sets that it can utilize, it is still manageable if you are smart and clever enough. As powerful as it is, it is still very much a balanced threat seeing that there is very clear counterplay against it that doesn't overcentralize the meta.

I am bringing this up because Type: Null takes what Gligar does in the meta and abuses it to an unbearable degree. Although Gligar boasts a superstar set by Cross Evolving with Gyarados as well as potentially dawning some other useful Cross Evos for different yet highly-effective niches, Type: Null's unusually-high base stat lineup of 95/95/95/95/95/59 gives it the rare luxury of being able to use almost every single Cross Evolution available and, in some cases, abuse them at a level near or even more than Gligar x Gyarados.


Let's go over just how much Type: Null is capable of by itself. Some of the sets that Type: Null can carry are simply not okay by any standards. Type: Null has many options for highly-offensive sets that, when left unattended, can tear open teams without much effort. It can take from the likes of Arcanine, Linoone, the Hitmons, Gyarados, Bibarel, Breloom or Barbaracle for dangerously effective physical sweeper sets. On the opposite side, it can take traits from Milotic, Volcarona, Noivern, Rampardos, Swoobat or the Eeveelutions to become horrifying special breakers that can tank most incoming attacks. All of these share the following in common: Ridiculously high attacking stats or setup potential, absurd defenses that no sweeper should have easy access to, and all having a different niche from one another that warrants running one set over the other. Give Gligar some credit here; it can only really nab a few sets to such caliber and only as a somewhat-predictable physical attacker, whereas Type: Null's options for immediate raw power just keep on going on and on with so much diversity that it's hard to keep up with.

But even then, we all know the offensive potential isn't the main problem with Type: Null; it's the outrageous defensive/utility sets that can be borderline impossible to break, if not seemingly broken. The list of exploitable advantages has almost no limit: Xatu for Magic Bounce and hazard control, Toxapex or Amoongus for crazy defenses and utility options plus Regenerator, Persian-Alola to wall almost any physical attack in existence, Chansey for a beefy Wish tank that can support the entire team, Hariyama to become an effective tank, Whimsicott for easy disruption, Frosslass to become Normal/Ghost, any of the weather starters for consistent setup for the team, the list just goes on indefinitely! Hell, a good majority of the previously-listed sets that enable offense can be doubled up as defensive sets as well, making the list of stupidly-bulky sets grow even further.

However, even with all of this, the most egregious set out of all of them is Type: Null x Quagsire (also known as QuagNull). How stupid is QuagNull compared to most of the other choices listed? Well, it can shut down almost any form of setup, keeps itself alive forever with Recover, remains painfully difficult to OHKO while healthy, can spread around status like the common cold, and can even boost itself with Curse to become a pseudo-sweeper using its already-high Attack even without investment, all by itself. Unless your team has a dedicated Fighting-type nuke, consistent Toxic spreading, or a balls-to-the-wall Wallbreaker like Choice Band Krabby x Araquanid, QuagNull will put your team through absolute hell if not make some cases unwinnable. It is simply that difficult to take it down by normal means.


Hopefully, you can see exactly what the problem with Type: Null is and how unfairly-busted it is compared to Gligar. Gligar is very strong and easily a meta staple, but you typically know what to expect and can bring mons that act as blanket checks against it and usually come out on top in the end unless the Gligar set is completely out of the blue (which CAN happen, to be fair). With Type: Null, you can never do that. The fact is that Type: Null has the raw stats to do almost anything and some of said sets can be done to equivalent or even greater effect of Gligar x Gyarados. Type: Null brings in a kind of pressure that is nonequivalent to that of Gligar, as now you have to prepare for any and all possible Type: Null sets that are strong enough to break down or outlive most teams in general, and you can never prepare for all of them at once. Not only that, but teams have absolutely no reason to not play Type: Null because of how much natural synergy it has with any conceivable playstyle among just about any single teammate.

I really can't think of any good reason why Type: Null should stay. Type: Null's unparalleled versitility, splashability, usefulness, and amount of pressure its mere presence can cause on the opponent and on general teambuilding make it way too good for Cross Evolution to the point that it's technically better than what's commonly referred to as the best thing in the tier. This is a Pokemon where you always have to guess in order to figure out what it's doing, and by then you most likely can't go up against it, and this isn't even accounting its teammates that further synergize with it.


If you have any second thoughts on why Type: Null should have any reason to stay in this tier, I want you to take a moment to consider the following: If you're so good that you completely outclass Arceus in almost every conceivable way, by yourself, in a tier where Arceus is allowed, you know you have a problem.

Ban it, and never let something like this stay in a tier as long as it did; it doesn't deserve your sympathy.

THIS RIGHT HERE! Well put, my friend!

As great as Gligar is, it's not broken. Both defensively and offensively. But should still be considered when teambuilding regardless if you're using it or not.

But anyways, as for Type:Null, it definitely takes the cake. You've already touched on everything I've wanted to say. Especially the fact that Null is incredibly unpredictable or at least can be. Even its most common set( Chansey) is versatile as hell. It can either be a hazard setter, wish passer, cleric, wincon(via curse or Calm mind) etc and that's just ONE set covering plethora of roles. Now imagine how ridiculously versatile its other sets can potentially be....lmao. I'm in full agreement, Ban Type:Null!

Also, personally, I think the Chansey set is more unbreakable than Quag. All you need is raw strength(which is quite easy to achieve in CE, off the top of my head I think of Hitmonlee, Breloom, Gallade, certain Vikavolt sets/variants etc as examples) for the quag set.
 

Attachments

  • "You can't go over base 255 or under 1 on any stat. Combinations that produce Pokémon with negative base stats or over 255 are banned."
After the suspect testing with Null is done(or before, it doesn't matter much to me), I would like for this to be removed until further notice. I want those said PKMN to cap at 255/1 instead of becoming illegal. Thanks! Tagging Urkerab
 
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  • "You can't go over base 255 or under 1 on any stat. Combinations that produce Pokémon with negative base stats or over 255 are banned."
Afterthe suspect testing with Null is done(or before, it doesn't matter much to me), I would like for this to be removed until further notice. I want those said PKMN to cap at 255/1 instead of becoming illegal. Thanks! Tagging Urkerab
Yeah, this has been a common complaint for a while. The only real defense I can give this decision is that changing the limit would allow more stuff to Cross Evolve with the likes of Ninjask or Accelgor for an easy +120 Speed buff, as the heavy drop in Defense made it unavailable for most. But, even with that, I'm totally on board with this decision and agree it should be done to at least remain consistent with the likes of Tier Shift and MnM (or at least tested to be sure nothing stupid comes from it).
 
I've talked with Nido about Type:Null and he echoed my sentiments exactly. I could've easily made reqs with my first team which had Type:Null into Xatu (gets around a lot of the usual answers pretty well, bouncing status and whatnot), but I wanted to try again without using Type Null to see how hard it would be. I replaced Type:Null with Munchlax as it was my Spdef wall on that team, and traded my Linoone-Munchlax for another BD abuser. It was noticeably tougher laddering without the suspected 'mon, and matchups involving it were unfavorable. I traded out my BD user for a Gallade to help deal with the presence of Nulls after losing a few too many matches to QuagNull.

Type:Null's versatility makes it truly obnoxious to deal with. Chansey:Null is eating pretty much every specs hit, and QuagNull is beating down almost every set up mon in the tier bar maybe Vivibuzz. It has a lot of other viable sets too, I've seen Arcanine and Linoone sets, even some Milotics that can be obnoxious with Facade + monstrous defenses from Flame Orb. One of the biggest problems is you never know just what set exactly it will be until it comes out, too. Most 'mons have some predictability to them, even if the meta can be very flexible. But with Type Null, because it can use every cross evo, it needs every check imaginable. Accounting for every set and being able to break them all can be a headache. I used a Taunting Ghost type for stallbreaking already, but had to add a Life Orb Fraxure/Gallade pretty much for this 'mon. It's underrated, unexpected and super good, yes, but also I specifically added this set thinking that it would make QuagNull more tolerable, and indeed it does.

Its offensive sets can break through the tier quite capably and its defensive sets wall pretty much everything but the most obscenely offensive Pokemon in the tier. When something is this absurdly versatile and good at everything it does, I'll always vote ban.

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