Cross Evolution (now with Viability Rankings!)

[Jerrytkrot]

Guys, Duskull named Chansey. 170/40/90/50/130/45.
Shove an eviolite on it, give it Serene Grace, Spam Ominous wind/willow wisp/confuse ray/pain split.

 

[Jajoken]

1) You can't use Eviolite
2) Pain Split with 170 base HP will lose you more HP than not
3) You can donate 2 moves, so something like Softboiled/Wish + Stealth Rock/Heal Bell is probably the way to go

 

[Stocke]

cool set:

(Base stats: 125/195/110/65/100/80)
Beedrill (Rhydon) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Focus Energy
- Drill Run
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish

After losing horribly to Pika Xreme's Vullaby I decided my team needed a form of offensive setup that bypasses Unaware. Focus Energy was the only solution I could think of barring Mold Breaker standard set-up sweepers (most of which were rather disappointing), and I think Rhydon > Beedrill is the best abuser of Focus Energy as it has Sniper in addition to an immense 195 Attack stat, decent (though not great by Cross Evolution's standards without investment) 125/110/100 bulk, and a base 80 Speed stat which, while not anything to boast about prior to Rock Polish, allows it to outspeed pretty much the entire meta after a Rock Polish. Drill Run and Stone Edge were chosen over their counterparts Earthquake and Rock Slide respectively because they have heightened crit ratios naturally, which means there's no necessity to run Scope Lens as the item so it's free to run other items such as Life Orb or Lum Berry (I'm using LO personally). Unfortunately this set sort of struggles to set up in a meta as offensive as Cross Evolution since its bulk isn't spectacular without investment, but it seems like it would be useful for breaking Unaware 'mons if your team has no other way around them.

edit: a Rhydon > Beedrill set was posted earlier in this thread, but it was running a bulkier EV spread and didn't have Rock Polish so I think I'm justified in posting this one

 

[lightninging]

was a decision ever made regarding unbanning ubers? obvi it hasn't been play tested, but it seems to be a smart idea. Plus stuff like Archen and Sneasel could potentially be freed.

 

[Stocke]

was a decision ever made regarding unbanning ubers? obvi it hasn't been play tested, but it seems to be a smart idea. Plus stuff like Archen and Sneasel could potentially be freed.

no decision has been made on that front but I think it would at least merit testing if not an outright immediate unban seeing as a lot of the more powerful fusions have Uber-level BSTs and the ability to mix and match movepools as needed to the extent that they're able to surpass most Ubers (at least in a specific role). that said, this would also serve to make stall even more unviable than it already is so idk

 

[dsm77773]

no decision has been made on that front but I think it would at least merit testing if not an outright immediate unban seeing as a lot of the more powerful fusions have Uber-level BSTs and the ability to mix and match movepools as needed to the extent that they're able to surpass most Ubers (at least in a specific role). that said, this would also serve to make stall even more unviable than it already is so idk

Alright, I'll let the community decide, but this time with a one-week deadline. Vote if you either want this to be Ubers-based or OU-based.

 

[Stocke]

Alright, I'll let the community decide, but this time with a one-week deadline. Vote if you either want this to be Ubers-based or OU-based.

I'll vote for this to be Ubers-based. most of my reasoning for this is already outlined in the post I made above, but I will add that with an OU-based metagame more restrictions on what you're allowed to do with cross-evolutions would most likely need to be imposed (a BST cap for instance; this example obviously isn't the best possible solution but it's simple) and with an Ubers-based meta those measures won't be as necessary.

also free gyara

 

[Jerrytkrot]

Ubers, Only because it seems like OU mons could become effectively Uber tier, and every Pokemon in Uber won't be able to benefit from these changes.



Also,
Potential Super Tank:
Claydol (Lickitung) @ Sitrus Berry
New Stats: 110/85/125/90/125/50
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cosmic Power
- Recycle
- Belch
- Fire Blast

 

[frogstomperful]

Fraxure->"Machamp" or Fraxure->"Conkeldurr", which is better? Haxorus has always been a favorite but that its excellent Attack can be ruined by burn status has always been a downer.

 

[Stocke]

Fraxure->"Machamp" or Fraxure->"Conkeldurr", which is better? Haxorus has always been a favorite but that its excellent Attack can be ruined by burn status has always been a downer.

ideally you probably won't want to use either since Machamp and Conkeldurr both give poor overall stat boosts leaving your Fraxure far behind the standards of the metagame, but if I had to pick I'd probably go with Machamp as although its attack boost isn't as high as Conkeldurr's it does increase speed by a bit more in addition to bolstering Fraxure's poor special bulk. Machamp also gets Close Combat, which Conkeldurr lacks.

 

[dsm77773]

Fraxure->"Machamp" or Fraxure->"Conkeldurr", which is better? Haxorus has always been a favorite but that its excellent Attack can be ruined by burn status has always been a downer.

ideally you probably won't want to use either since Machamp and Conkeldurr both give poor overall stat boosts leaving your Fraxure far behind the standards of the metagame, but if I had to pick I'd probably go with Machamp as although its attack boost isn't as high as Conkeldurr's it does increase speed by a bit more in addition to bolstering Fraxure's poor special bulk. Machamp also gets Close Combat, which Conkeldurr lacks.

I'd pick Gallade here, giving you 96/207/100/40/100/97 stats and Close Combat.

 

[Stocke]

I'd pick Gallade here, giving you 96/207/100/40/100/97 stats and Close Combat.

I agree that that's the best option for Fraxure to evolve into thanks to Gallade's tremendous strength growth, but I think frogstomperful was looking for a Pokémon to evolve into for obtaining Guts specifically. Even then, Axew into Hariyama is probably a better option for Guts since it's much bulkier and a bit faster than the evolutions they proposed while not losing any significant attack power.

 

[sin(pi)]

I'll just play the devil's advocate and let people like my post for OU-based with a BST, and like Stocke for Ubers-based. This totally isn't a ploy for likes or anything, what are you talking about?

smh stealing my ideas :')

I'd prefer this to be OU based, with a BST cap or something. I personally don't like Ubers metas as much (Arc, Pdon are a bit boring to me), and I like the idea of having these guys fight it out with other mons in OU. A BST cap would help with this because looking at OU currently, nothing has >600 BST other than megas and Kyurem, and in fact that is the baseline for OU generally.


Otherwise, I'd like to take a moment to think about BrokeMove1 and BrokeMove2, aka Espeed and Boomburst. I'll put the relevant offensive boosts in brackets (Atk or SpA, Spe). (I'm going to ignore stuff which can't donate).
Boombursters are: Swellow (+20/40, Scrappy), Noivern (52/68), Exploud (20/20, Scrappy), Vibrava (5/60), Flygon (20/30)
Best recipients are Porygon1 and Porygon2, by the looks of things. Porygon->Noivern has 110/100/115/137/115/108 stats. Porygon2->Exploud has 105/100/110/125/125/80 with Scrappy Boomburst+Focus Blast.

Espeeders are: Arcanine (40/35, Intimidate/FF, good coverage), Dragonite (50/10, Multiscale, good coverage), Dragonair (20/20), Lucario (40/40, Steel secondary, good coverage), Togekiss (10/40, Hustle), Raichu (35/20), Pikachu (10/30), Linoone (40/40, Bellyspeed)
Good receivers are Munchlax, Teddiursa (both have native Belly Drum, and Teddi has CC+Crunch as well), Doduo, Porygon2 (funnily enough, but it's the best 'nite recipient). Munchlax->Arcanine gets 170/125/75/70/115/40, and perfect/near perfect 3 move coverage - Intimidate makes this bulkier than Arceus, while hitting harder (and having BDrum). Plus, your speed tier means you're running Adamant + bulk. On the other hand you can run P2->Dnite with 115/130/120/135/125/70 and Multiscale.

 

[dsm77773]

Alright, I'll let the community decide, but this time with a one-week deadline. Vote if you either want this to be Ubers-based or OU-based.

It's been a week now!
7 people voted for Ubers while 2 did for OU. Thus, Cross Evolution will now use Uber clauses.

Even though I first intended to ban Gengarite on a Ubers environment, I'll let it free for now, even though I'll keep an eye on it. If it proves overpowered after testing it'll be banned. However, in a metagame full of offensive monsters that can outspeed it and OHKO it, Mega Gengar just doesn't feel as good as it is in Ubers, even though it still looks pretty terrifying to fat builds.
However, getting Shadow Tag via cross-evolution is now banned. Shadow Tag is now legal, and I think most people will agree that everything having access to Shadow Tag (using Wobbuffet for Stage 1 Pokémon and Gothitelle for Stage 2 Pokémon) is unhealthy for the metagame.

However, I'm keeping the OU Baton Pass clause to prevent this archetype from being broken. Ubers has no Baton Pass clause but similar to what happens with Shadow Tag, the ability to mix and match both movepools, abilities and stats can easily make this strategy broken.

If you don't agree with the BP/Shadow Tag clauses outline your reasoning here, even though I think most people will agree that this metagame needs them.

Why not make a strawpoll or google docs thing to get a voting thing going? Half the posts here are one liners with no explanations behind their choice. I realize that possibly nothing more needs to be said after the posts that have explained their choices but basically encouraging one liners (or more specifically, two worders) in a discussion thread doesn't seem like a great idea.

Anyway, since it's already going this route, just tag me when you're done making a decision and I'll delete those.

imas Yeah, probably should've told people to outline their reasoning not to fill this thread with one-liners. Next time I'll consider one of your ideas to improve the voting system, thanks. Anyway, the decision has been made so you can delete the posts. Thanks again.

Also tagging urkerab to update stuff on ROM.

How will the unbanning of Ubers affect the metagame? Discuss!


imas edit: alright deleted a bunch of posts including my own

 

[Jerrytkrot]

I think shadow tag shouldn't be banned, although it should be limited to ONE Pokemon per team.
Shadow Tag does not affect other Pokemon with shadow tag, and part of Shadow Tag's power in the conventional metagame is due to the fact that so few Pokemon have it. If it was possible for any Pokemon to have it, then it would be a lot less powerful.

 

[dsm77773]

I think shadow tag shouldn't be banned, although it should be limited to ONE Pokemon per team.
Shadow Tag does not affect other Pokemon with shadow tag, and part of Shadow Tag's power in the conventional metagame is due to the fact that so few Pokemon have it. If it was possible for any Pokemon to have it, then it would be a lot less powerful.

I still don't like this idea, though. For example, you can't guess from Team Preview which Pokémon has Shadow Tag, which makes it even easier to catch by surprise the opponent, then trap and remove whatever annoying Pokémon for teammates. This basically forces you to play carefully all the time with your walls "just in case" the opponent has a Shadow Tag Pokémon waiting on the back.
If you don't want to get trapped you're basically forced to switch in your own Shadow Tag Pokémon every single time, unless you have a Ghost-type. Doesn't sound very healthy to me.

 

[lightninging]

I agree with dsm 100%. Without being able to tell what's a trapper and what isn't, almost every defensive mon which isn't a ghost is going to have to run shed shell or some other gimmick. Shadow Tag in its original Ubers form is fine, but allowing it to be obtained via cross evolution would distort and negatively affect the meta, almost totally invalidating stall, semi stall, and defensively minded balance. Shadow Tag's power is in no way related to the number of pokemon which have it. If anything, more pokemon being able to have it would only make it more unpredictable and more uncompetitive.

 

[Jerrytkrot]

I agree with dsm 100%. Without being able to tell what's a trapper and what isn't, almost every defensive mon which isn't a ghost is going to have to run shed shell or some other gimmick. Shadow Tag in its original Ubers form is fine, but allowing it to be obtained via cross evolution would distort and negatively affect the meta, almost totally invalidating stall, semi stall, and defensively minded balance. Shadow Tag's power is in no way related to the number of pokemon which have it. If anything, more pokemon being able to have it would only make it more unpredictable and more uncompetitive.

While this is a good point, you could also run Shadow Tag on a defensive Pokemon to stall out a Pokemon if they aren't immune to status. Remember, Shadow Tag is a double-edged sword. If you have it on a sweeper, you can typically hit Other Pokemon without worry of being countered. If you have it on a staller, You can Swap it in to wall a Pokemon and have them be completely unable to damage you.

 

[lightninging]

Stall doesn't benefit from shadow tag to nearly the same point as more offensive play styles. With the need to counter both all of the usual Ubers threats plus the newly cross-evolved mons running around, more defensive teams are gonna be hard pressed to survive already. Allowing literally anything to become a trapper is highly uncompetitive and would improve the metagame in no way.

 

[dsm77773]

While this is a good point, you could also run Shadow Tag on a defensive Pokemon to stall out a Pokemon if they aren't immune to status. Remember, Shadow Tag is a double-edged sword. If you have it on a sweeper, you can typically hit Other Pokemon without worry of being countered. If you have it on a staller, You can Swap it in to wall a Pokemon and have them be completely unable to damage you.

Still the same situation: you can't tell what is a trapper and what it is not, until it has switched in and the trapper has immediatly the advantage. By eliminating the option of switching out, this strategy has no counters other than another Shadow Tag user or a Ghost-type. This, or you slap Shed Shell on eveything. Either way, you're overcentralizing the game.

 

[lightninging]

On a different note, can we talk about potentially unbanning Gyarados, Sneasel, Scyther, and Archen?
Gyarados gives the same total BST boost as milotic. Might it not be broken in an ubers based environment?

 

[Jerrytkrot]

If Those Pokemon were unbanned:
Gyarados (Scyther)
MOXIE
Stats: 145/225/104/100/160/106 840.

Gyarados (Sneasel)
MOXIE
Dark/Flying
Stats: 130/210/79/80/155/116 770

Gyarados (Archen)
MOXIE
Stats:125/227/69/119/125/71 741

And you're worried about the Metagame being over-centralized by Shadow Tag.

 

[lightninging]

Alright so drop the 3 prevos. What about gyara?

 

[MyNameIsPaddy]

While those Pokemon are very scary, all can be out-sped and/or beaten with Priority and in Ubers the famous E-Killer Arceus is around as will Rayquaza and a multitude of new E-Speeders that get the move through Cross-Evo.

This looks like a cool meta and it will be interesting to see what Evos are used and what on.