Cross Evolution (now with Viability Rankings!)

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
how the fuck is cm spritz set up bait when that thing is weak to fairy and only has 70/80 special bulk. also, espeed and taunt fuck it over, as do grass types to a much smaller extent.
CM Sprit is setup bait if you can sleep it.
T1: You switch Sprit in on Scyther (a common thing, as it's one of the best checks available), and it spores/subs. I'll assume it subs as that is the better play; now Scyther is poisoned.
T2: It does the opposite, so that Sprit is asleep while Scyther is behind a sub. If sprit clicks Sleep talk, it has a 1/3 chance to break the sub, otherwise a 0% chance. Sprit could also wake here if it was slept t1, which results in a waster turn if you clicked STalk. Scyther is at 87.5%.
T3: It clicks SD, Sprit has a 1/3 chance of hitting with STalk, but also a 1/3 chance of waking (which equates to a wasted turn if you click STalk). Scyther is now at 100% and potentially behind a sub.
Sprit is certainly setup bait if nothing else is slept. Obviously there are other glaring issues, namely the inability to touch ghosts, but those have been mentioned already.
 
Nobody has commenteed on these noms so I will:

Xerneas
Rufflet (should be B- imo, like Archen: longevity vs. power)
Staryu
Primal Groudon, maybe
Magmar (want more discussion on this)
Gligar (want more discussion on this)

Deoxys-Attack: has proven, everytime I tested, underwhelming, has 4MSS since with Psycho Boost, Extreme Speed and two coverage moves it can't cover everything, it is destroyed by priority, and it is forced out by p much anything it can't OHKO.
Cranidos: the Hitmonlee set is better done by Archen, and the suicide lead set is beaten by other dedicated leads easily, best example is Deoxys-S. Really should be at the same level as Deoxys-S (Magic Coat vs. Memento), and both are suicide leads that only really fit on HO teams.
Doduo: It's not that reliable. It has cardboard bulk, is stopped badly by Unaware or pretty much anything that can survive a hit and KO back (considering Doduo's bad bulk and it being at 75% health at best due to Belly Drum, that's not that difficult), and while its absurd power (because it's at +6) somewhat remedies this, it has bad coverage and a predictable moveset: Drum/ESpeed/Knock Off/Steel Wing. Doduo should be ranked, but not that high.

Can't really comment about the others since I have no experience with them or I don't really mind their new proposed new rank. Murkrow should be a bit higher imo, granted it's not great but destroys offense, and with Band it's power is decent at worst.
If no one disagreees I'll go on and I'll move the ones that I agree with.


Not to mention that set cannot literally touch any Ghost-type, such as the increasingly common Doublade x Flygon, and Pumpkaboo-Super x Chansey. Mega Gengar, in particular, destroys that set.

It depends on the ability's exact mechanics, but it is likely to be hard-coded to Silvally, and thus it won't work on other Pokémon but regular Silvally.

Lmfao you and lightninging loved to bash scyther, when I AlREADY named the shit that checks it. literally only ghost types or unaware fairy type user obviously counter it (it's fighting mono ffs use yours brains), you lack either of these you're p much going to die. But you guys also ignore the fact that's there's barely any viable taunt user faster than base 140. prankster is a thing i kno, but like I said FOR THE SECOND TIME, if this fucker is behind a sub, you can kiss your taunter GOODBYE (unless it's ghost typed). same for grass types, but is considered a "soft check". The only STAB espeed we have is fucking arceus, and I'm p sure he can't stomach a unboosted FPunch. All espeed is going to do is break the sub. please read wtf I am saying instead reading what you want to read. -,- referring mostly to lightninging, as dsm just always just point out the obvious literally after I've already done it. both of you guys look at sets/poke from a "one tunnel" point of view :( as scyther have 5 other pokes that can rid him of his counters, which is literally only unaware fairy types or ghost types in gerenal. smh
 
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how the fuck is cm spritz set up bait when that thing is weak to fairy and only has 70/80 special bulk. also, espeed and taunt fuck it over, as do grass types to a much smaller extent.

edit: peep the calc
0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scyther: 356-422 (126.6 - 150.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
invalid calc btw :)

As scyther is damn near ALWAYS behind a sub+poison heal is literally always healing off the hp required for sub. smfh have fun stalling
 
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I... think thet we have a HUGE thing going to unbalance the metagame

Cosmoem has an enormous boost by evolving into either legendaries. Multiscale or Clear Body (Well, their clones) both are good abilities as well.
Solgaleo boosts: 94/108/-24/84/-42/60 +Full Metal Body, +Steel (Secondary)
Lunala boosts: 94/84/-42/108/-24/60 +Shadow Shield, +Ghost (Secondary)

That's essentially a +280 BST
Using Null as an example:
Solgaleo-Null: 189/203/71/179/53/119
Lunala-Null: 189/179/53/203/71/119
Nevermind, they are third stage. Point is still valid tho


Also Null is going to be fun to use. 95 almost all around (Aside from speed) is great to abuse.
 
Also, Lycanroc works really well with Cranidos/Archen. We finally get some STAB Priority on them!

EDIT:

Lycanroc boosts:-
Midday Form: +35/+50/+25/+25/+25/+52, Keen Eye/Sand Rush/Steadfast
Midnight Form: +45/+50/+35/+25/+35/+22, Keen Eye/Vital Spirit/No Guard

This gives Cranidos either 102/175/65/55/55/110 with potential for Sand Rush madness, or 112/175/75/55/65/80 with a STAB Head Smash that never misses. Similarly, Archen gets 90/162/70/99/70/112 or 100/162/80/99/80/82 with the same ability access. I mean, obviously you're doing this for the purposes of Accelerock, but it gives a hell of a boost. 212 stat points is not to be sneezed at.

Cosmoem's great too - Tangela becomes 65/50/215(+100)/100/140(+100)/60, Onix actually breaks the game by having a Defence stat over 255 - and I can see Toxapex being downright evil when paired with Cranidos, but as far as offensive cross-evos go, Lycanroc-Midday might be a hidden gem. All things considered, I think we might be seeing a few more Hippowdon or Tyranitar fusions soon. =]
 
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Cosmoem has an enormous boost by evolving into either legendaries. Multiscale or Clear Body (Well, their clones) both are good abilities as well.
Solgaleo boosts: 94/108/-24/84/-42/60 +Full Metal Body, +Steel (Secondary)
Lunala boosts: 94/84/-42/108/-24/60 +Shadow Shield, +Ghost (Secondary)
Those Def/SpD drops are painful, though, even with the HP boost. Still, Dusclops could cross with Solgaleo (134/178/106/144/88/85, Ghost/Steel) or Porygon2 could cross with Lunala (179/164/48/213/71/120, Normal/Ghost).
Also Null is going to be fun to use. 95 almost all around (Aside from speed) is great to abuse.
Indeed, its BST is even higher than Scyther, and you can cross with Noivern for STAB Boomburst (140/135/140/147/135/127).
 
I'm sorry, but could we ban Persian-Alola from being used on Null? Honestly, I ran countless fucking calculation against null (I used mew really, just gave it its typing+stats)And the only way you're breaking throu this asshole is 1.) If you're able to boost all the way up to +6, or a fighting type with boosting moves(yes boosting as even some of the brutality strong ones CAN'T EVEN RELIABLE KILL IT without boosting) 2.)crits set such as rhydon, can potentially break it, mold breakers as well or 3.) Just avoid using physical sweepers(That are not fighting typed)and start using special sweepers instead, but even then it can get away with investing more in spd than in its Def or just simply have another poke sponge those special hits

Just look at this,

252 Atk Scyther Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Mew: 218-258 (49 - 58.1%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Subpunch bre x Scyther vs Null

252+ Atk Life Orb Rhydon Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Mew: 273-322 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gallade x Rhy vs Null


252+ Atk Life Orb Sniper Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Mew on a critical hit: 230-271 (51.8 - 61%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Critter Rhydon vs Null

Now you're probably thinking "why on earth would null stay in on any of these then?" this is where parting shot comes into play, it lowers both offensive stats AND allows null to pivot out of an unfavorable matchup and most likely, have a mon come in that's going to force you out. therefore making it just that more uncompetitive and annoying. basically what I'm saying is, this thing can be slapped on any team as a quick hard check/counter to any random physical sweepers. and it's not hard at all to fit into a team due to its positive traits it provides for your team and its typing isnt really problematic. you could also argue that it doesn't have reliable recovery, but that's why it has teammates, wishpasser/cleric with heal bell/Aroma if it chooses to run rest etc.

EDIT: If not null, then PLEASE look into gligar x persian-A. it's arguably way better with it than null is

Edit 2: Nvm, I found out Sunsteel strike completely ignores fur coat. Solgaleo's signature move.
 
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How bulky is too bulky?

Golisopod (Cranidos) @ Quick Claw
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 252 HP / 252 ATK / 4 SPD
Brave Nature
- Head Smash
- Liquidation
- Sucker Punch
- Leech Life

Here, if you're wondering why the hell it's running Quick Claw, is the statline:-
117/215/140/70/90/18

Speed is garbage-tier, yeah, but that Attack stat is just monstrous.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
How bulky is too bulky?

Golisopod (Cranidos) @ Quick Claw
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 252 HP / 252 ATK / 4 SPD
Brave Nature
- Head Smash
- Liquidation
- Sucker Punch
- Leech Life

Here, if you're wondering why the hell it's running Quick Claw, is the statline:-
117/215/140/70/90/18

Speed is garbage-tier, yeah, but that Attack stat is just monstrous.
+sin(pi): .crossevo Cranidos, Gyarados
*Abyssal Bot: Cranidos ===> Gyarados: Stats:142/240/64/75/110/59 Abilities:Intimidate/Moxie Type:Rock/Flying Weight: 256.5 kg (120 BP)
+sin(pi): .crossevo cranidos, breloom
*Abyssal Bot: Cranidos ===> Breloom: Stats:67/215/60/50/30/93 Abilities:Effect Spore/Poison Heal/Technician Type:Rock/Fighting Weight: 66.2 kg (80 BP)

Your set is cool, but between its awful speed and (imo) irredeemable ability, these two are most likely better. True, you don't get Sucker Punch, but Technician STAB Mach Punch is stronger. Plus, if you want Sucker Punch specifically, there's this:
+sin(pi):.crossevo cranidos, hitmonlee
*Abyssal Bot:Cranidos ===> Hitmonlee: Stats:82/210/58/30/105/110 Abilities:Limber/Reckless/Unburden Type:Rock Weight: 60.3 kg (80 BP)
which, thanks to Reckless, hits harder than Golisopod, and had a much better speed tier, in exchange for a marginally weaker SPunch.

I don't particularly think Cranidos is great though, except to smash through certain stall builds. Its job is often done better by the faster Archen.

-----

+sin(pi): .crossevo Type: Null, Quagsire
*Abyssal Bot: Type: Null ===> Quagsire: Stats:135/135/135/135/135/79 Abilities:Damp/Water Absorb/Unaware Type:Normal Weight: 187 kg (100 BP)
....pls ban
While it faces competition from Munchlax (which is specially bulkier), Type: Null can run a huge number of sets to great success. Examples of evos (bolded moves are donated):
+sin(pi): .crossevo Type: Null, Milotic
*Abyssal Bot: Type: Null ===> Milotic: Stats:170/140/154/185/165/60 Abilities:Marvel Scale/Competitive/Cute Charm Type:Normal Weight: 275.1 kg (120 BP)
Bulkier than Giratina on both sides, with reliable recovery and more SpA than Mega Rayquaza.
Milotic (Type: Null) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Recover
- Roar / Haze
- Scald / Ice Beam / Toxic

+sin(pi): .crossevo Type: Null, Gyarados
*Abyssal Bot: Type: Null ===> Gyarados: Stats:170/210/119/140/175/60 Abilities:Intimidate/Moxie Type:Normal/Flying Weight: 345.5 kg (120 BP)
No recovery here unfortunately, so you're probably looking at pivot/offensive sets. It gets DD and SD which are cool.
Gyarados (Type: Null) @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge / Return
- two from: Payback / Waterfall / Crunch / Earthquake / Ice Fang
- U-turn
customise the EVs for w/e you want

+sin(pi): .crossevo Type: Null, Noivern
*Abyssal Bot: Type: Null ===> Noivern: Stats:140/135/140/147/135/127 Abilities:Frisk/Infiltrator/Telepathy Type:Normal Weight: 197.5 kg (100 BP)
STAB Boomburst. Your special movepool is atrocious though. Swellow is an alternative for Scrappy.

+sin(pi): .crossevo Type: Null, Linoone
*Abyssal Bot: Type: Null ===> Linoone: Stats:135/135/115/115/115/99 Abilities:Pickup/Gluttony/Quick Feet Type:Normal Weight: 135.5 kg (100 BP)
Bellyspeed. Still walled by steels though, so you can run stuff like Arcanine or Luke for SD + Espeed:
+sin(pi): .crossevo Type: Null, Arcanine
*Abyssal Bot: Type: Null ===> Arcanine: Stats:130/135/130/125/125/94 Abilities:Intimidate/Flash Fire/Justified Type:Normal Weight: 256.5 kg (120 BP)
+sin(pi): .crossevo Type: Null, Lucario
*Abyssal Bot: Type: Null ===> Lucario: Stats:125/135/125/175/125/89 Abilities:Steadfast/Inner Focus/Justified Type:Normal/Steel Weight: 154.3 kg (100 BP)
Luke is notable because you can run Special attacks to break stuff like DoubladexDragonite, and also STAB Bullet Punch if that's your thing. Arcanine grants things like Flare Blitz, CC and Crunch, as well as Morning Sun if you're so inclined.

There are way more but I got lazy.

I also think cross-evolving into Solgaleo and Lunala, and also into Gyarados, should be looked into. I don't have any experience with the former so it's all theorymon, but just looking at the boosts worried me. On Gyarados though, there is literally no reason not to run a Gyarados evo on your team. 99% of the time it will improve it. Need SR? GligarxGyara. Need Defog? GligarxGyara. Need a setup sweeper? GligarxGyara. Need a bulky pivot? GligarxGyara.
Jokes aside, Gyarados can be run on several other mons (Scyther/Archen come to mind, but there are more which escape me). Imo it's too good and too versatile. Gligar may be the culprit here, but I'm not sure.
+sin(pi): .crossevo Mankey, Gyarados
*Abyssal Bot: Mankey ===> Gyarados: Stats:115/195/59/80/125/71 Abilities:Intimidate/Moxie Type:Fighting/Flying Weight: 253 kg (120 BP)
Gyarados (Mankey) @ Red Card/nothing
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
- Ice Punch / Earthquake / Crunch
- Dragon Dance

STABs are resisted by Electric/[Flying|Poison|Ghost|Psychic|Fairy], Steel/Ghost, and Rock/Ghost, which translates to pretty much just Doublade. Ice Punch hits Gligar much harder than anything else, you 2HKO 252/252+ variants at +0 and OHKO the offensive set after rocks; it also can't touch you if it doesn't run Acro. You out speed positive 130s at +1, and you hit slightly harder than the equivalent Gligar set. Beating Unaware Munchlax is just icing on the cake.
 
+sin(pi): .crossevo Cranidos, Gyarados
*Abyssal Bot: Cranidos ===> Gyarados: Stats:142/240/64/75/110/59 Abilities:Intimidate/Moxie Type:Rock/Flying Weight: 256.5 kg (120 BP)
+sin(pi): .crossevo cranidos, breloom
*Abyssal Bot: Cranidos ===> Breloom: Stats:67/215/60/50/30/93 Abilities:Effect Spore/Poison Heal/Technician Type:Rock/Fighting Weight: 66.2 kg (80 BP)

Your set is cool, but between its awful speed and (imo) irredeemable ability, these two are most likely better. True, you don't get Sucker Punch, but Technician STAB Mach Punch is stronger. Plus, if you want Sucker Punch specifically, there's this:
+sin(pi):.crossevo cranidos, hitmonlee
*Abyssal Bot:Cranidos ===> Hitmonlee: Stats:82/210/58/30/105/110 Abilities:Limber/Reckless/Unburden Type:Rock Weight: 60.3 kg (80 BP)
which, thanks to Reckless, hits harder than Golisopod, and had a much better speed tier, in exchange for a marginally weaker SPunch.

I don't particularly think Cranidos is great though, except to smash through certain stall builds. Its job is often done better by the faster Archen.

-----

+sin(pi): .crossevo Type: Null, Quagsire
*Abyssal Bot: Type: Null ===> Quagsire: Stats:135/135/135/135/135/79 Abilities:Damp/Water Absorb/Unaware Type:Normal Weight: 187 kg (100 BP)
....pls ban
While it faces competition from Munchlax (which is specially bulkier), Type: Null can run a huge number of sets to great success. Examples of evos (bolded moves are donated):
+sin(pi): .crossevo Type: Null, Milotic
*Abyssal Bot: Type: Null ===> Milotic: Stats:170/140/154/185/165/60 Abilities:Marvel Scale/Competitive/Cute Charm Type:Normal Weight: 275.1 kg (120 BP)
Bulkier than Giratina on both sides, with reliable recovery and more SpA than Mega Rayquaza.
Milotic (Type: Null) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Recover
- Roar / Haze
- Scald / Ice Beam / Toxic

+sin(pi): .crossevo Type: Null, Gyarados
*Abyssal Bot: Type: Null ===> Gyarados: Stats:170/210/119/140/175/60 Abilities:Intimidate/Moxie Type:Normal/Flying Weight: 345.5 kg (120 BP)
No recovery here unfortunately, so you're probably looking at pivot/offensive sets. It gets DD and SD which are cool.
Gyarados (Type: Null) @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge / Return
- two from: Payback / Waterfall / Crunch / Earthquake / Ice Fang
- U-turn
customise the EVs for w/e you want

+sin(pi): .crossevo Type: Null, Noivern
*Abyssal Bot: Type: Null ===> Noivern: Stats:140/135/140/147/135/127 Abilities:Frisk/Infiltrator/Telepathy Type:Normal Weight: 197.5 kg (100 BP)
STAB Boomburst. Your special movepool is atrocious though. Swellow is an alternative for Scrappy.

+sin(pi): .crossevo Type: Null, Linoone
*Abyssal Bot: Type: Null ===> Linoone: Stats:135/135/115/115/115/99 Abilities:Pickup/Gluttony/Quick Feet Type:Normal Weight: 135.5 kg (100 BP)
Bellyspeed. Still walled by steels though, so you can run stuff like Arcanine or Luke for SD + Espeed:
+sin(pi): .crossevo Type: Null, Arcanine
*Abyssal Bot: Type: Null ===> Arcanine: Stats:130/135/130/125/125/94 Abilities:Intimidate/Flash Fire/Justified Type:Normal Weight: 256.5 kg (120 BP)
+sin(pi): .crossevo Type: Null, Lucario
*Abyssal Bot: Type: Null ===> Lucario: Stats:125/135/125/175/125/89 Abilities:Steadfast/Inner Focus/Justified Type:Normal/Steel Weight: 154.3 kg (100 BP)
Luke is notable because you can run Special attacks to break stuff like DoubladexDragonite, and also STAB Bullet Punch if that's your thing. Arcanine grants things like Flare Blitz, CC and Crunch, as well as Morning Sun if you're so inclined.

There are way more but I got lazy.

I also think cross-evolving into Solgaleo and Lunala, and also into Gyarados, should be looked into. I don't have any experience with the former so it's all theorymon, but just looking at the boosts worried me. On Gyarados though, there is literally no reason not to run a Gyarados evo on your team. 99% of the time it will improve it. Need SR? GligarxGyara. Need Defog? GligarxGyara. Need a setup sweeper? GligarxGyara. Need a bulky pivot? GligarxGyara.
Jokes aside, Gyarados can be run on several other mons (Scyther/Archen come to mind, but there are more which escape me). Imo it's too good and too versatile. Gligar may be the culprit here, but I'm not sure.
+sin(pi): .crossevo Mankey, Gyarados
*Abyssal Bot: Mankey ===> Gyarados: Stats:115/195/59/80/125/71 Abilities:Intimidate/Moxie Type:Fighting/Flying Weight: 253 kg (120 BP)
Gyarados (Mankey) @ Red Card/nothing
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
- Ice Punch / Earthquake / Crunch
- Dragon Dance

STABs are resisted by Electric/[Flying|Poison|Ghost|Psychic|Fairy], Steel/Ghost, and Rock/Ghost, which translates to pretty much just Doublade. Ice Punch hits Gligar much harder than anything else, you 2HKO 252/252+ variants at +0 and OHKO the offensive set after rocks; it also can't touch you if it doesn't run Acro. You out speed positive 130s at +1, and you hit slightly harder than the equivalent Gligar set. Beating Unaware Munchlax is just icing on the cake.
Finally someone said something about gyara x gligar. it damn near almost compresses the meta like pdon in standard ubers. multiple roles are easily executed as you stated, with just >Gyarados< I mean, yea you could run barbaracle, but gyarados is honestly arguably STILL the better option. and why not? Opportunities are just insanely easy to find thanks A LOT to its bulk, and gyarados blessed gli with not just one good ability but TWO, moxie+inti are almost inarguably better abused by gligar than anything else in the entire meta. Better typing, deeper movepool(I'm trying to avoid saying roost x__X)but anyways, gligar does it almost, if not completely flawless if used properly.

If you're serious about Solgaleo and Lunala. Then plz look into persian-alola, gligar and null is p much all I can think of as absurd users. Too god damn physically bulky, nothing and I mean literally nothing can one shot either of em physically, even when they set up sometimes. Persian also gives gli foul play, effectively not making it total set up bait.

Edit: damnit, except Solgaleo's signature move.

Edit 2: +6 252 Atk Magmar Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Gligar: 306-361 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If this stay, stall will undoubtedly be using it.
On ,and that's gallade x magmar after Belly drum.
 
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this post probably won't have any actual substance but im tired rn:

I admittedly don't have that much experience with Gyara evos other than Gligar so someone else could probably say this better, but I don't think Gyara is the core of the problem (if indeed there is one, which I'm not completely sure of yet). Most of what I've seen out of Gyara evos other than Gligar, while not bad by any means, doesn't strike me as particularly banworthy, I think it's moreso just that Gligar complements the things that Gyara has to offer incredibly well (I went over this in a previous post but it boils down to #1 Gligar's default movepool being amazing, such that it fills many key gaps of Gyara's movepool [aside from recovery and general utility options, access to Acrobatics is especially important to note for offensive sets because not much is prepared to stomach such a powerful Flying move] and #2 Gligar already having relatively strong stats in the two areas Gyara lacks [Defense and Speed] and its other stats are lifted up very high from the other gains). Which brings me to the topic of ban policy; this has probably already been discussed and I just missed out on it, but would a ban on a specific base + evo combination be considered a complex ban or not? I'm guessing so, but I think it's worth checking on nonetheless for cases like this where I don't think either element is too good by itself (and I'm sure there will be more like this in the future considering the nature of this metagame).

edit: also worth noting that one of the reasons Gligar is mostly better in an offensive role than other users of Gyara is that its physical bulk + typing even without Intimidate or defensive EVs grant it a pretty absurd amount of set-up opportunities, the Mankey set sin(pi) posted looks good but at the same time I imagine it'd be rather hard to set up with against an offensive team which Gligar can do considerably more easily
 
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