Cross Evolution (now with Viability Rankings!)

first, i like this idea :)

well, pikachu doesn't need light ball anymore:
gyarados (pikachu) life orb
ability: intimidate
new stats: 110/170/64/95/130/91 (bst 680)
new typing: electric / flying
ev: 252 attack, 252 speed, 4 spd
- extreme speed
- wild charge
- aerial ace (now stab)
- dragon dance

both get: body slam, return, double edge
other notable moves pika: volttackle, fake out (both not compatible with extremespeed) knock off, iron tail, quick attack, nuzzle
other notable moves gyara: earthquake, outrage, aqua tail, waterfall, iron head, crunch, stone edge, bounce

another thing: can mons with 3 stages take the base form to evole to something with 2 stages?
like this:
lucario (abra) @ choice specs (maybe also: choise scarf, focus sash, life orb)
ability: steadfast, inner focus
new stats: 55/60/45/185/85/120 (bst 465)
new typing: psychic / steel
ev: 252 spa, 252 speed, 4 spd
- psychic/psyshock
- flash cannon
- aura sphere
- dazzling gleam

both get: shadow ball
other notable moves abra: energy ball, signal beam, charge beam
other notable moves lucario: dark pulse, dragon pulse, nasty plot, vacuum wave, water pulse, focus blast

not op stats, but spa and speed may break some things, same will go for gastly.
 
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first, i like this idea :)

well, pikachu doesn't need light ball anymore:
gyarados (pikachu) Life Orb
ability: intimidate
new stats: 110/170/64/95/130/91 (bst 680)
new typing: electric / flying
ev: 252 attack, 252 speed, 4 spd
- extreme speed
- wild charge
- aerial ace (now stab)
- dragon dance
Gyarados is banned for cross-evolution, sorry. Also, neither Pikachu nor Gyarados learn Aerial Ace (not that you'd want to use it as it's still quite weak after STAB)

edit: even if Gyarados wasn't banned this'd still be illegal because Pikachu is a second stage and so is Gyarados. I was about to recommend Hitmonlee to you in place of Gyarados but that'd also be illegal by the same token.

another thing: can mons with 3 stages take the base form to evole to something with 2 stages?
Yes.
 
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Gyarados is banned for cross-evolution, sorry. Also, neither Pikachu nor Gyarados learn Aerial Ace (not that you'd want to use it as it's still quite weak after STAB)

edit: even if Gyarados wasn't banned this'd still be illegal because Pikachu is a second stage and so is Gyarados. I was about to recommend Hitmonlee to you in place of Gyarados but that'd also be illegal by the same token.
makes sense that gyarados line is banned, but why isn't milotic then?

sorry, forgot about the baby mons.
 
makes sense that gyarados line is banned, but why isn't milotic then?
I don't know, honestly. It'll hopefully be banned before too long, though, seeing as Milotic's stat gains can make just about anything into a fearsome special attacker and a mighty wall at the same time, to the point where it'd invalidate pretty much any other given special-oriented evolution were there not a restriction on the amount of times you're allowed to use it per team (1). If I had to guess, I'd say it's because unlike Gyarados Milotic doesn't have any boosting moves, but that's flimsy justification at best given the sheer stat increases it can give to any stage 1 Pokémon.

sorry, forgot about the baby mons.
yeah, they are pretty forgettable; easy mistake to make and I can understand why you'd make it
 
First:- Specific items are BANNED
Sorry for the confusion, it is just misphrased in he OP

Second:- Reasons of Gyarados's ban and not milotic
It is mainly due to a past rule in the game, which allowed to use M-Stones (It is decided that it is a bad idea and rejected now) which was a great advantage against something like Milotic
Also it has much more reliable abilities in Moxie and Intimidate allowing its usage for both, offense and defensive purposes
And with a much better movepool, Gyarados obviously has a nice advantage against milotic in some parts
But seeing how the thread is going, We will be thinking about Suspecting Milotic for the current time (Not Suspected yet)
 
OK, first: before calling anything broken, I'd like some actual battling to see its in-battle performance and just not theorymoning.

The reasons to keep Milotic for now:
  • Despite giving a huge +90 Special Attack boost, it gives no good offensive abilities/moves, compared to other lines such as Volcarona (+85 SpA, Quiver Dance, Will-O-Wisp) or Lucario (+80 SpA, Nasty Plot, even Extreme Speed), so it'd be restricted to defensive roles.
  • With no investment, Milotic cross-evolutions won't hit as hard as it seems. Base formes picked will have on average less base Special Attack, and remember, the average Special Defense of any target Pokémon has increased as well.
  • Milotic is restricted to base formes which tend to have lower stats than Stage 2 Pokémon.
  • For now, Milotic seems to balance a bit some really powerful cross-evolutions (Gallade, Dragonite).
Into is a no, according to the op. Evolving from Cubone should work, however, since the item is specific to their evolutionary line rather than their species and crossing doesn't change the availability of signature items.
Only regular Cubone/Marowak can use Thick Club.
 
I would post Ferrothorn(Chansey) but that would sadly push it over 255 HP

Also hooray for a meta that gives me an excuse to use Braixen. This meta needs to be coded ASAP.

Gallade(Braixen) in particular seems really good to me on paper. Mixed Braixen will be best Braixen.
 
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I would post Ferrothorn(Chansey) but that would sadly push it over 255 HP

Also hooray for a meta that gives me an excuse to use Braixen. This meta needs to be coded ASAP.
Greninja (Braixen) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
New Typing: Fire/Dark
New Stats: 79/91/73/110/85/98
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
A more damaging bulky version of Greninja, It supports nice coverage options with great stats, 110 SpA is not something to take easily from balance or offense pokemons, It can also choose to run a more defensive set with tools like Light Screen, Taunt etc. to get over stall, It can also run mixed with a not bad 91 ATK, Surprising Special walls and taking them down easily

Happy now? :P
Also both ferrothorn and chansey are stage 2 so that would've been disallowed anyway, You can use Happiny-Ferrothorn or Ferroseed-Chansey though
 
The possibilities with this metagame are almost endless. I can already see myself some amazing sets to use with the cross evolved pokemon. Jumping in joy, these future OMs will be great to ladder in Showdown!

Keep up the good work!

-TenucSkenuck
 
Gallade (Braixen) @ Focus Sash/Life Orb
Ability: Justified
New type: Fire/Fighting
New bases: 89/149/88/90/130/103
Mild/Hasty Nature
EVs: 252 Attk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
-Swords Dance
-Knock Off/Close Combat
-Drain Punch/Knock Off
-Fire Punch

Guess what? It's another Fire/Fighting starter. Though, unlike the others, it has actual special bulk so it can take a Water-type move or two. Not to mention its through the roof Attack enabling it to become a physical force to be reckoned with. While its Special Attack is completely unchanged from regular Braixen, Calm Mind from the Gallade side of the spectrum helps alleviate it. Gallade also helps with fixing the limited movepool issue Delphox has, and would be transmitted if this was vanilla OU.


Another viable option for Braixen would be Vivillon because Quiver Dance and good Speed/Special Attack boost.
 
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Another viable option for Braixen would be Vivillon because Quiver Dance and good Speed/Special Attack boost.
Vivillon would definitely be a better option for Braixen than Gallade given that its stats are already oriented towards special offense and Gallade gives mostly physical boosts. Even then, Magmar probably outdoes Braixen as a Vivillon pre-evolution given that it has higher Special Attack and Speed to start off with (though it's extremely physically frail, you can use a Focus Sash to rectify that a bit))
 
I'm gonna try to find viable evolutions and edit this as I go

1st Stage Receivers for below
Yanma- Horrible typing, but good enough stats to abuse including high speed
Wailmer- Can take either physical or special boosts, not that fast
Porygon- Everyone knows this
Lickitung- Really bulky
Murkrow- Obvious as well
Gligar- Physical, don't even try special
Scraggy- You'll want to change the type, but it has DDance
Shieldon- Extreme defenses
Ferroseed- Same as Shieldon, but steel primary typing
Elekid/Voltorb- Both are superfast electric types
Magby- Sweeper potential with high offensive stats
Munchlax- Obvious
Frillish- Bulk potential, recover etc
Elgyem- Potential to be a better Reuniclus
Rufflet- Has superpower and most bird moves
Cranidos- Dat attack doe
Pancham- Parting shot, has like every punch move ever
Spritzee- Banned from 350cup for a reason, it has dat bulk
Swirlix- Belly drumming fairy type, only 48 attack though
Drifloon- Good HP and speed, low other stats besides special attack
Pawniard- Is pawniard
Chinchou- Has chinchou's supportability
Rhyhorn- Physical tank, but dies to a single special move
Nosepass- Give this guy HP please
Litleo- Sweepy potential in the sun?

2nd Stage-
Lilligant- +25/+25/+25/+40/+25/+60 (+200) and Quiver Dance. Chlorophyll is cool I guess, but QDance is the only move
Donphan- +0/+60/+60/+20/+20/+10 (+170) with Sturdy. I need to find something to take these boosts :O
Like every Eeveelution ever
Hippowdon- +40/+40/+40/+30/+30/+15 (+190) with Sand Stream or Sand Force. Like Donphan but sandier.
Xatu- +25/+25/+25/+25/+25/+25 (+150) with MBounce. Use Epeon, but this one is better for the few mixed out there
Forretress- +25/+25/+50/+25/+25/+25 (+175) with secondary steel, sturdy, and the holy hazard movepool
 
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Second:- Reasons of Gyarados's ban and not milotic
It is mainly due to a past rule in the game, which allowed to use M-Stones (It is decided that it is a bad idea and rejected now) which was a great advantage against something like Milotic
Also it has much more reliable abilities in Moxie and Intimidate allowing its usage for both, offense and defensive purposes
And with a much better movepool, Gyarados obviously has a nice advantage against milotic in some parts
But seeing how the thread is going, We will be thinking about Suspecting Milotic for the current time (Not Suspected yet)
Ugh.
If you had Mega Stones allowed, WHY DIDN'T YOU BAN GALLADE? Gallade is a far worse problem that Gyarados will EVER be, because it interacts with second stage 'mons, and it actually gives a secondary typing that it can USE! Can you not see that Gallade is a problem? Because it is. It very definitely is. Rant now over. Now to your scheduled random ideas! This time, with some birdspam!

Talonflame (Togetic) @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
New Stats: 71/48/101/98/122/80
New Typing: its the same
EVs: 252 HP, 4 filler, 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Roost / Wish
- Dazzling Gleam
- Air Slash
- Nasty Plot / Calm Mind / Heat Wave

SPECIAL Gale Wings! Yeah...

Wormadam-Plant-Cloak (Archen) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
New Stats: 75/142/85/124/105/70 (BST 601)
New Typing: Rock/Grass
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 filler
Adamant Nature
- Roost
- Seed Bomb
- Rock Slide
- U-Turn / Knock Off / Defog


Also hooray for a meta that gives me an excuse to use Braixen. This meta needs to be coded ASAP.
You're right, Pokken Tournament DOESN'T have a metagame! I do have a non-Gallade idea for Braixen, though. Have a look!

Flygon (Braixen) @ Leftovers / Life Orb / ?????
Ability: Levitate
New Stats: 89/89/88/120/100/103 (BST 589!)
New Typing: still just Fire
EVs: 4 filler, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Wish / Roost
- Heat Wave / Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Boomburst
- Foul Play / Earth Power

Between your pick of Fire STAB and Boomburst, Flygon-Braixen (Flyxen? Braigon?) is going to be doing a good amount of damage. Foul Play or Earth Power gets Ghost or Rock types out of the way, respectively.
 
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bp scrub

rub a dub dub one scrub in a tub
(Base stats: 60/65/50/150/90/125)

100 / 80 / 150 / 131 / 75 / 95

Ninetales (Tangela) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Sleep Powder
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain

with Flash Fire, Tangela gets rid of one of its biggest weaknesses, and 100/150 bulk means it can take quite a lot on the physical side while boosting with Calm Mind
 
Ugh.
If you had Mega Stones allowed, WHY DIDN'T YOU BAN GALLADE? Gallade is a far worse problem that Gyarados will EVER be, because it interacts with second stage 'mons, and it actually gives a secondary typing that it can USE! Can you not see that Gallade is a problem? Because it is. It very definitely is. Rant now over. Now to your scheduled random ideas! This time, with some birdspam!

Talonflame (Togetic) @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
New Stats: 71/48/101/98/122/80
New Typing: its the same
EVs: 252 HP, 4 filler, 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Roost / Wish
- Dazzling Gleam
- Air Slash
- Nasty Plot / Calm Mind / Heat Wave

SPECIAL Gale Wings! Yeah...

Wormadam-Plant-Cloak (Archen) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
New Stats: 75/142/85/124/105/70 (BST 601)
New Typing: Rock/Grass
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 filler
Adamant Nature
- Roost
- Seed Bomb
- Rock Slide
- U-Turn / Knock Off / Defog


You're right, Pokken Tournament DOESN'T have a metagame! I do have a non-Gallade idea for Braixen, though. Have a look!

Flygon (Braixen) @ Leftovers / Life Orb / ?????
Ability: Levitate
New Stats: 89/89/88/120/100/103 (BST 589!)
New Typing: still just Fire
EVs: 4 filler, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Wish / Roost
- Heat Wave / Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Boomburst
- Foul Play / Earth Power

Between your pick of Fire STAB and Boomburst, Flygon-Braixen (Flyxen? Braigon?) is going to be doing a good amount of damage. Foul Play or Earth Power gets Ghost or Rock types out of the way, respectively.
I like how you act brilliant and keep talking about banning, yet you did not realize archen is banned...
Also as for gallade, At that time, The rules were practically 75% different, but to get it accepted a lot of changes had to happen, Anyway as I was saying, The meta evolves and evolves, new threats and new checks to them by time and by imagination, I wouldn't ban anything else until the meta is finally being tested OR it has proven to be 100% op in a way or another on about every single mon, Which Gallade and Milotic do not do, yet gyarados is very splashable
 
I was bored in class and made a super-stall team:

Chansey (Tangela) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Giga Drain
- Soft-Boiled
- Toxic
- Knock Off

65 / 55 / 115 / 100 / 40 / 60 -> 215 / 55 / 115 / 120 / 80 / 80 (Total: 665)

215 / 115 / 80 bulk is just silly. Its Special Attack is still quite usable and access to reliable recovery mitigates the loss of regenerator. It even has passable speed!

Milotic (Frillish) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Recover
- Scald
- Shadow Ball / Toxic
- Taunt / Toxic

50 / 40 / 50 / 65 / 85 / 40 -> 125 / 85 / 109 / 155 / 155 / 41 (Total: 670)

Frillish is probably the best water-type that can use Milotic's stat changes. It can stall break with taunt and shrugs off even super-effective if Scald burns. Attack coming off of a 155 Special Attack hurt even when uninvested.

Reuniclus (Dusclops) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard / Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp / Knock Off
- Night Shade / Knock Off
- Toxic / Knock Off

40 / 70 / 130 / 60 / 130 / 25 -> 85 / 85 / 155 / 60 / 155 / 25 (Total: 565)

This thing has better mixed bulk than Deoxys-D. That is a lot; it gains Knock Off and Recover from Reuniclus, and is hard to take down with either ability. Personally, I'd go Magic guard to avoid toxic stall and the like, but Regenerator with Defenses like that would be stupidly hard to kill.

Chandelure (Chansey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss / Night Shade / Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Heal Bell

250 / 5 / 5 / 35 / 105 / 50 -> 250 / 15 / 35 / 85 / 135 / 85 (Total: 605)

While Chansey's defenses are improved, they aren't as high as Eviolite Chansey, so the only reason you'd run a Chandelure Chansey is to gain Infiltrator, which allows it to beat Subs with impunity, and access to Night Shade. Flamethrower can be put on there as well to deal with Steel Types that can wall you pretty easily. Speed creep!

Clefable (Wartortle) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Rapid Spin / Encore
- Moonlight
- Scald
- Toxic / Calm Mind

59 / 63 / 80 / 65 / 80 / 58 -> 84 / 88 / 105 / 100 / 90 / 83 (Total: 550)

Unaware stall. I originally has something about Quagsire here, but realized that Wartortle couldn't do that. A pure Calm Mind set with Scald / Calm Mind / Moonlight / Toxic might also be good, though Mono-Fairy is probably better than Mono-Water. Scald make those set up chances easier, however.

Braixen (Serperior) @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Overheat
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Psyshock

59 / 59 / 58 / 90 / 70 / 73 -> 74 / 74 / 78 / 105 / 90 / 103 (Total: 524)

It might prove slow for the Metagame, but 2 moves that can raise your special attack is no joke, especially when it doesn't need a whole lot outside of HP Ground for Heatran and hits Charizard / Talonflame hard as well. New Unaware threats may arise however, but high base power moves somewhat helps in that regard.

For example:
252 SpA Life Orb Braixen Overheat vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 185-218 (47 - 55.4%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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I was bored in class and made a super-stall team:

Chansey (Tangela) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Giga Drain
- Soft-Boiled
- Toxic
- Knock Off

65 / 55 / 115 / 100 / 40 / 60 -> 215 / 55 / 115 /120 / 80 / 80

215 / 115 / 80 bulk is just silly. Its Special Attack is still quite usable and access to reliable recovery mitigates the loss of regenerator. It even has passable speed!

Milotic (Frillish) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Recover
- Scald
- Shadow Ball / Toxic
- Taunt / Toxic

50 / 40 / 50 / 65 / 85 / 40 -> 125 / 85 / 109 / 155 / 155 / 41

Frillish is probably the best water-type that can use Milotic's stat changes. It can stall break with taunt and shrugs off even super-effective if Scald burns. Attack coming off of a 155 Special Attack hurt even when uninvested.

Reuniclus (Dusclops) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard / Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp / Knock Off
- Night Shade / Knock Off
- Toxic / Knock Off

40 / 70 / 130 / 60 / 130 / 25 -> 85 / 85 / 155 / 60 / 155 / 25

This thing has better mixed bulk than Deoxys-D. That is a lot; it gains Knock Off and Recover from Reuniclus, and is hard to take down with either ability. Personally, I'd go Magic guard to avoid toxic stall and the like, but Regenerator with Defenses like that would be stupidly hard to kill.

Chandelure (Chansey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss / Night Shade / Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Heal Bell

250 / 5 / 5 / 35 / 105 / 50 -> 250 / 15 / 35 / 85 / 135 / 85

While Chansey's defenses are improved, they aren't as high as Eviolite Chansey, so the only reason you'd run a Chandelure Chansey is to gain Infiltrator, which allows it to beat Subs with impunity, and access to Night Shade. Flamethrower can be put on there as well to deal with Steel Types that can wall you pretty easily.

Quagsire (Wartortle) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Rapid Spin / Encore
- Recover
- Scald
- Toxic

59 / 63 / 80 / 65 / 80 / 58 -> 99 / 103 / 120 / 105 / 120 / 78

Mega-Blastoise with less Special Attack and a far superior ability is what you get here. Without a quad-weakness, this thing can take a beating better than Quagsire could ever hope to. A curse set could also be viable, something like Curse / Recover / Aqua Tail / Avalanche is akin to Clefable in OU currently.

Braixen (Serperior) @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Overheat
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Psyshock

59 / 59 / 58 / 90 / 70 / 73 -> 74 / 74 / 78 / 105 / 90 / 103

It might prove slow for the Metagame, but 2 moves that can raise your special attack is no joke, especially when it doesn't need a whole lot outside of HP Ground for Heatran and hits Charizard / Talonflame hard as well. New Unaware threats may arise however, but high base power moves somewhat helps in that regard.

For example:
252 SpA Life Orb Braixen Overheat vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 185-218 (47 - 55.4%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nice Stall team but first you got no hazards, second you got no hazard removal except Quagsire/Wartortle which is illegal, As both of them are Stage 2
 
Two questions here:
  1. In cross-evolution, can a Pokémon obtain a move from the cross-evolution that can only be learned by a lower form of that evolution (e.g., Flygon and Boomburst)?
  2. You say the Gyarados, Medicham, Azumarill, and Diggersby lines are banned. Is this just in terms of cross-evolving, or are they completely off-limits? For example, is it not permissible to use regular Gyarados, or Meditite cross-evolving into Hitmonlee?
Thanks in advance.
 
Nice Stall team but first you got no hazards, second you got no hazard removal except Quagsire/Wartortle which is illegal, As both of them are Stage 2
Shh no I don't. Stealth Rocks would probably fit best on to Wartortle, as Clefable gets it. It would have to choose between Moonlight, Rocks, Calm Mind, and Aromatherapy, however.
 
Shh no I don't. Stealth Rocks would probably fit best on to Wartortle, as Clefable gets it. It would have to choose between Moonlight, Rocks, Calm Mind, and Aromatherapy, however.
Quagsire/Clefable is 100% Wrong, How the heck does one evolve a 3-Stage pokemon (Clefable) to a 2-Stage (Quagsire)?

Two questions here:
  1. In cross-evolution, can a Pokémon obtain a move from the cross-evolution that can only be learned by a lower form of that evolution (e.g., Flygon and Boomburst)?
  2. You say the Gyarados, Medicham, Azumarill, and Diggersby lines are banned. Is this just in terms of cross-evolving, or are they completely off-limits? For example, is it not permissible to use regular Gyarados, or Meditite cross-evolving into Hitmonlee?
Thanks in advance.
1. I do not really understand the question, As long as the move is in the movepool it can be passed, literally
2. For the Meditite cross-evolving, I think it shall be legal as it loses access to Pure Power
As for Gyarados part I am not exactly sure but I guess I could talk to dsm about it and see, but... Why would you even want to use normal gyarados :P
 
Oops, that is supposed to be Wartortle into Clefable, not Quagsire into Clefable. I was caught up a bit on Quagsire for whatever reason.
 

EV

not even to dinner with the kushners?
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
dsm77773 I recommend putting this in the OP to help clear up questions about how the metagame works. Sometimes visuals are better for understanding new mechanics.

Q: How do you know if a Pokemon can cross-evolve into another?
A: First you need to find out what stage it is. For the sake of this OM, Pokemon are broken into three stages: 1, 2, & 3. Each stage represents where a Pokemon belongs in its evolutionary line. Some lines have 3 stages and some have 2. Stage 1 Pokemon can only evolve into Stage 2 Pokemon, and Stage 2 Pokemon can only evolve into Stage 3 Pokemon. If a Pokemon doesn't evolve at all under normal circumstances, it cannot evolve in this OM either.

Stage 1 Charmander is the first in its line.
Stage 2 Charmeleon comes after Charmander and is second in its line.
Stage 3 Charizard comes after Charmeleon and is third in its line.

Stage 1 Mankey is the first in its line.
Stage 2 Primeape comes after Mankey and is second in its line. No Pokemon come after Primeape in this line.

Examples:

Stage 1 Charmander
Stage 2 Primeape

This is a legal evolution because Charmander is a Stage 1 and can evolve under normal circumstances.


Stage 1 Girafarig
Stage 2 Primeape
This is an illegal evolution because Girafarig cannot evolve under normal circumstances.


Stage 2 Ivysaur
Stage 3 Charizard
This is a legal evolution because Ivysaur is a Stage 2 and can evolve under normal circumstances.


Stage 2 Primeape
Stage 3 Charizard
This is an illegal evolution because Primeape cannot evolve under normal circumstances.
 
I guess I'll make a post to dump some more theorymons

->

+30 / +40 / -20 / +50 / +30 / +50
+
secondary typing
Intimidate / Moxie
Notable Moves: Dragon Dance, Roost, Fire Blast, Wish, Defog

Salamence grants a neat typing and a huge boost in offenses, along with a modest special defense boost. Its downside of lower defense isn't as bad when you consider that you can potentially gain Intimidate as an ability. The main issue that Salamence faces as a cross-evo is that Dragonite gives it heavy competition, as they both give the same tying and the same core moves. However, while Dragonite provides a bigger boost in bulk and a great ability in Mutliscale alongside a better movepool, Salamece grants a much better speed tier to whomever receives its benefit. Its SpA boost is also higher, although this is a bit less notable. Here are some notable good recipients

->

90 / 115 / 80 / 105 / 110 / 100

Intimidate / Moxie

Metang provides a great typing alongside a lot of versatility. It can be a defensive Pokemon with Intimidate and solid 90/80/110 bulk, using moves such as Defog, Roost, and Stealth Rock to act as a bulky wall. You can also pull off a Dragon Dance set, and even have the SpA to use moves such as Fire Blast. I can see a bulky DD set being potent. It can probably even go choiced, acting as a powerful pivot, although it lacks a pivoting move.

->

80 / 100 / 75 / 170 / 100 / 120

Intimidate / Moxie

This is more to showcase Salamence's viability against Dragonite, as Metang + Dragonite is also a very viable combination. With insane 100/170/120 offensive stats and a typing that is pretty viable, Magneton can work as a powerful pivot. While it is physically more frail that Zapdos, it does have Intimidate to patch that up, so a bulky defog set isn't out of the question. While it doesn't get Ice Beam, Hydro Pump could still see use to blast Ground-type away, and it does get Fire Blast as a possible coverage move. Don't mess with base 170 SpA

->


135 / 170 / 100 / 95 / 75 / 90
Intimidate / Moxie

This takes advantage of the high speed that Salamence grants, essentially turning Rhydon into a juiced-up Lando-T. 135/100/75 and Intimidate make it very hard to break through without a SE hit, and even a SE hit on the physical side probably won't cut it. This gives it ample time to set up Dragon Dances and sweep due to its usable 90 speed. You can probably also get away with a more support-y set, or a choiced one.


->

+20 / +20 / +20 / +60 / +20 / +40
Levitate
Notable Moves: Roost, U-Turn, Head Smash, Large Special Movepool

This is a pretty good deal for anything that wants to be a special attacker. The boosts in stats are very large, especially when you consider that you get a big boost in bulk and get access to part og Hydreigon's insane movepool. Levitate is also a cool ability, especially on things that are weak to Ground such as many Electric-types.

->

70 / 80 / 115 / 180 / 90 / 110

Levitate

This is probably one of the biggest examples of boosted Electric-types. It now sports a massive 180 SpA and a very usable 110 Speed, alongside an ok 70/115/90 bulk that is a bit let down by its low HP. Electric / Steel with Levitate is an amazing type ability combo. While it lacks Ice Beam, Hydreigon still provides a plethora of coverage options such as Fire Blast, Focus Blast, and Earth Power. U-Turn is also an alternative to Volt Switch if you want to ensure a pivot, although Volt Switch is probably better overall. The massive SpA and Levitate make for a great mon overall.

->

125 / 150 / 140 / 105 / 65 / 80

Levitate

Maybe this can be a powerful wall breaker? It has enough SpA to run things like Fire Blast, but the main draw of this is abusing Head Smash with a base 150 attack. 80 Speed is just usable enough, especially when combined with Rock Polish. It also has an impressive 125 HP, which lets it sponge up the recoil from Head Smash. 140 defense is also nothing to scoff at. In fact, the only low stat Rhydon has is its SpDef, which is slightly mitigated by its high HP. Still, it sports a lot of weaknesses even with Levitate covering its Ground weakness, so even its good bulk won't keep it alive. Still, Head Smash off of 150 is ridiculously strong.

->

65 / 70 / 65 / 175 / 75 / 135

Levitate

This is basically a super charged Gengar, if you think about it. Better stats all round and a bigger movepool make Haunter a huge threat. It can stallbreak even harder now that it has access to Taunt + Wisp + Roost, while its other sets get fun tools like U-Turn and Fire Blast. Alternatively, you can use up one of your Hydreigon moveslots to get Focus Blast like Gengar does, since Haunter already has a pretty decent movepool to begin with.


->

+40 / +10 / +60 / +15 / +65 / +10
+
primary typing
Synchronize / Inner Focus

While initially Dark might not be the best typing to grant to things, there are a few typings with Dark that are good defensively. It is also hard to ignore the massive boost to bulk that Umbreon grants - 40/60/65 is going to make anything exceptionally bulky. This is admittingly more niche, but its still a really neat defensive cross evo

->

105 / 85 / 165 / 50 / 130 / 95

Synchronize / Inner Focus

Gligar is going to appear a lot, and its not hard to see why. This is basically a better Mandibuzz - it has a lot of the same traits (good bulk, unusually high speed, same typing) while also having benefits over it. First of all, its much bulkier than Mandibuzz, and Mandibuzz was already bulky as it is. It also has a usable 85 attack, meaning it doesn't have to rely on Foul Play to do reasonable damage. Very potent stallmon.

->

95 / 50 / 110 / 80 / 150 / 50

Synchronize / Inner Focus

While its physical bulk isn't as impressive as you would expect, it is still serviable when you consider that Frillish can burn things rather easily. It is also hard to ignore its huge 150 SpDef, letting it tank hits on that side easily and pairs well with burns overall. That bulk and reliable recovery, alongside a typing with only one weakness makes Frillish a mon that should not be messed with.

->

109 / 65 / 105 / 70 / 120 / 25

Synchronize / Inner Focus

Oh man, a Dark / Poison type with exceptionally bulk. While it lacks fire power, it can use Foul Play to compensate for this. One of the advantages this has as a stallmon is that it cannot be poisoned, making it hard to deal with if not burned. Sadly, it has to rely on Moonlight or Synthesis for recovery, but overall its not that bad.


->

+15 / +15 / +30 / +37 / +63 / +14
+
secondary typing
Poison Point / Poison Touch / Adaptability
Notable Moves: Draco Meteor, Toxic Spikes, Focus Blast

Dragalge provides a nice mix between bulk and power, favoring those who want bulky offenses. 37 SpA isn't as much compared to others, but it does also give Adaptability and a reasonable typing in Dragon. You also get a nice boost to physical defense and a massive boost to special defense. Overall a neato boost for those who want to be bulky offense or already have good speed.

->

55 / 45 / 80 / 92 / 118 / 114

Poison Point / Poison Touch / Adaptability

While not impressive at first, Voltorb has a couple of things going for it. For one, it is the fastest Dragalge cross evo, and sits as a very good 114 speed. Its modest 92 SpA is bolstered by Adaptability, allowing it to hit hard with Draco Meteors and Volt Switches. Dragalge also provides enough coverage so that Voltorb can hit Steel-types with Focus Blast. It also has solid enough SpDef to take a hit, although it does have the same problem base Dragalge has in that it has low HP. Not terrible though

->

77 / 65 / 88 / 110 / 117 / 86

Poison Point / Poison Touch / Adaptability

Litleo has the potential to become a powerful wallbreaker, dishing out massive Fire Blast and Draco Meteors off of Adaptability 110. It also has usable SpDef and enough HP to make it worth something, although its physical defense is lacking. 86 speed is just usable enough to allow it to outspeed walls and certain mons.

->

105 / 80 / 95 / 77 / 103 / 24

Poison Point / Poison Touch / Adaptability

Probably the model example of a bulky user, Slowpoke becomes pretty tanky with 105/95/103 bulk and a solid Water / Dragon typing. 80 and 77 might not seem much at first glance, but thanks to Adaptability and the fact that it has boosting options for both of these stats, one should not underestimate how much damage the little guy can push out. Curse is probably going to be the go-to set-up set due to it complementing its stats the best, but Calm Mind does have Adaptability Scalds on its side. Overall a powerful Pokemon.


->

+5 / +10 / +15 / +60 / +70 / +15
->

+5 / +10 / +45 / +60 / +40 / +15
Oblivious / Own Tempo / Regenerator
Notable Moves: Slack Off, Scald, Trick Room, Fire Blast, Nasty Plot (Slowking only)

I put both of them in the same sections because they are very similar but have very distinct differences. Slowbro provides a more balanced boost in bulk, while Slowking gives a modest boost to Defense and a huge boost to Special Defense. Slowbro is probably going to win out most of the time, but the specialized spread on Slowking might come in handy. Both are still terrific, however, as they provide a good movepool and Regenerator. The main flaw of both of them is that it only provides a tiny +5 HP, meaning that it heavily favors those who already have a high HP.

->
(
)
140 / 95 / 85 / 100 / 125 / 20 (140 / 95 / 55 / 100 / 155 / 20)

Oblivious / Own Tempo / Regenerator

Munchlax can become ridiculously bulky, especially when you consider it has access to Regenerator. Slowbro is probably the way to go for overall bulk, but if you want to become Blissey 2.0 while still having usable Defense, Slowking is your dude. Curse in particular probably prefers Slowking to become unbreakable after a few boosts. It has a usable base 100 as well, letting it hit reasonable hard with its wide coverage. Overall a great user of the Slows.

->
(
)
75 / 65 / 90 / 105 / 135 / 75 (75 / 65 / 120 / 105 / 105 / 75)

Oblivious / Own Tempo / Regenerator

This is a showcase of the Slows drawback. Vullaby has a high-ish HP compared to its comrades, and even then its HP stat is a bit on the low side, undervaluing its high 90/135 (or 120/105) bulk. The reason I made King the main one is, because of its low HP, I felt like Vullaby needed to specialize on one side or the other. Bro still has a really nice spread, however, so its not a bad option at all. It faces competition from Gligar + Umbreon who sports much higher bulk, but Vullaby + Slowking(bro) has access to Regenerator to differentiate itself.

->
(
)
50 / 73 / 82 / 125 / 95 / 110 (50 / 73 / 52 / 125 / 125 / 110)

Oblivious / Own Tempo / Regenerator

Elekid takes advantage of the Slows giving a high 60 SpA while providing decent bulk and a good ability for pivoting. Luckily they give just enough speed to allow Elekid to reach 110, which is a great speed tier to be in, especially when you don't need to use Hidden Power Fire for coverage. Regenerator pairs well with Volt Switch and its naturally high 125 SpA. Its bulk isn't great, especially when you consider its low 50 HP, but it should be able to take hits and retaliate, especially since its being healed everytime it switches. Bro is the primary choice, as it gives it overall good bulk - primarily, it lets you not die to Gale Wing Brave Birds and Air Slashes. However, you can take King instead for Nasty Plot set.
 
Last edited:

tehy

Banned deucer.
Edit: This is the final form of my post. (I hope...dont judge me.)

I like what Eevee did with the visuals and the examples (do note that I used copy-paste to make my own examples because I don't have those kinds of skills haha), but I thought something was really missing, at least assuming that I got this metagame. Namely, something like this:
Stage 2 Charmeleon
Stage 2 Primeape
This is an Illegal evolution because Charmeleon is a Stage 2 and cannot evolve into another Stage 2.

So far as I can tell, I'm right about this, and it's important to say - though Charmeleon IS capable of evolving, and Primeape IS capable of being evolved into, this cross-evolution fails because both are Stage 2.

Also, I thought the Charizard evolutionary line was something everyone basically knew about and liked, and you can use all three of them evolving to form the first three basic examples; by staying in the same evolutionary line at the start and by going in order, I think it's much easier to grasp the initial concept. With that in mind, here's my version of the visuals:

Stage 1 Charmander is the first in its line.
Stage 2 Charmeleon comes after Charmander and is second in its line.
Stage 3 Charizard comes after Charmeleon and is third in its line.

Stage 1 Mankey is the first in its line.
Stage 2 Primeape comes after Mankey and is second in its line. No Pokemon come after Primeape in this line.

Examples:

Stage 1 Charmander
Stage 2 Primeape

This is a legal evolution because Charmander is a Stage 1 and can evolve under normal circumstances.

Stage 2 Charmeleon
Stage 2 Primeape
This is an Illegal evolution because Charmeleon is a Stage 2 and cannot evolve into another Stage 2.

Stage 3 Charizard
Stage 2 Primeape
This is an illegal evolution because Charizard cannot evolve under normal circumstances.

Stage 2 Ivysaur
Stage 3 Charizard
This is a legal evolution because Ivysaur is a Stage 2 and can evolve under normal circumstances.


Stage 2 Primeape
Stage 3 Charizard
This is an illegal evolution because Primeape cannot evolve under normal circumstances.

Stage 1 Mankey
Stage 3 Charizard
This is an illegal evolution because Mankey is a Stage 1 and cannot evolve into a Stage 3 Pokemon.




Additionally, another thing that I don't like about the intro is how you use the phrase 'evolutionary line'. For example, there's this line:
  • OU banlist and clauses + Evolutionary clause: this prevents two or more Pokemon on a team from using the same evolutionary line.
So does this mean that I can cross-evolve one Pokemon with Poliwrath, but not cross-evolve another with Politoed? What about cross-evolving 2 Pokemon, one with Poliwrath and a second with Poliwhirl?

I think you mean 2 Pokemon cannot evolve into Poliwrath (and if you didn't, it seems like a silly rule). But you've gotten too fancy pants when you could've just said:

  • OU banlist and clauses + Evolutionary clause: this prevents two or more Pokemon on a team from cross-evolving with the same Pokemon.

Similarly, 'Pokemon that cannot evolve cannot cross evolve.' really simplifies the matter.

edit: Also, now that I think: you probably don't have a problem with normal Archen or Sneasel being available in your tier, as long as they haven't cross-evolved, right? So with that in mind,

  • Scyther, Sneasel and Archen are banned from cross-evolving.
Additionally, to return to the subject of evolutionary lines:
  • Cross-evolving with Gyarados is banned, as it gives insane stat boosts when compared to other cross-evolutions. Cross Evolving into Medicham, Azumarill and Diggersby (Huge Power / Pure Power) and Shedinja (Wonder Guard) are also banned. Further bans will be considered if needed as the metagame evolves.
(I included Pure Power too, since you know some smart aleck will inevitably ask the question).
/edit

finally, this site: http://pokemon.alexonsager.net/

would certainly create some helpful visuals. That said, it's also sort of strange, and you'd definitely want to get approval from TEG or TI, as well as use these sprites in the right way. Anyways, just something I wanted to toss out there.
 
Last edited:

MacChaeger

Go ahead, I’m bulletproof!
is a Programmeris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
On the subject of whether or not to ban cross-evolution with Milotic, I submit this monstrosity for your consideration:

Milotic (Omanyte) @ White Herb
Ability: Competetive
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Shell Smash
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam

Sporting a stat spread of 110/95/159/180/125/36, Omanyte-Milotic is one of the most fearsome wallbreakers imaginable. While it may be very slow and vulnerable to grass type attacks, 180 SpA with Shell Smash and Competetive is absurdly powerful. Even though the two might not synergize as well as Omanyte would like, if something tries to burn its White Herb before it smashes, like with Intimidate, Competetive gives Omanyte an extra +2 in Special Attack to compensate, meaning it might not even need to smash at all.
 

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