Metagame Cross Evolution

Hi.

I have a little question because I don't understand all this meta.
For example for a cubone with diggersby evolution..
What is it Ability? Huge power? Or the ability of marowak?
And if it's huge power did thick club double the attack? Or the mon is considered as a diggersby and not a marowak?

Or maybe I have to cross Bunnelby and marowak as evolution to have huge power and thick club.. I don't understand

Could we choose between the ability of the 2 pokemons?
 
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What is it Ability? Huge power? Or the ability of marowak?
Huge Power is banned, but it would inherit Diggersby's abilities, aka Pickup/Cheek Pouch/Huge Power.

And if it's huge power did thick club double the attack?
Pokemon-specific items don't work on cross-evolutions. Thus, Thick Club doesn't double the Atk stat because it's considered a new Pokemon. Same applies if you evolve into Marowak or anything with a special item (i.e Light Ball, Deap Sea Scale, etc.).
 
Omg Cross Evolution is OM of the Month!
Yes my day has finally come!

But Kings rock is banned! Crap. There goes my chances of haxing some wins.
 
Sneasel and Munchlax ruin this meta. That's all there's to it really.
But it doesn't look like the TL has any interest judging by the radio silence so far.

For the sake of Elaboration:

Sneasel is broke if you disagree with that, play some ladder games and come back when you don't; there really isn't any debate.
Munchlax is a victim of the "we don't ban milotic and gyarados" cult because in the end they're the main issue.
The question to be asked is, when is something "the best" and when is it "broken" so I invite everyone to look at a handful of sets and decide where gyarados is broken or not:

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These are just 5 mons, you can make anything have vaguely similar stats with gyarados because it's just broken.

Counter arguments:
  • They become flying-type (so what lol, Heavy Duty Boots gen is Heavy Duty Boots Gen)
  • "I never see these on the ladder" Yes because Scyther is so strong that you don't have to run the others. Ever.
  • "They're all semi-slow for this meta" Yeah. And have DD. And Intimidate or SnowballMoxie.

Then there is Milotic:
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And lest we forget, out lord Chansey is somehow legal:
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(I only included defensive sets here, but keep in mind Chansey can give anything enough HP to set up properly.)

Finally, we have the newest addition to broke town: Frosmoth.
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Keep in mind all of these are literally just "off the top of my head" things, certainly not tested mons. That's the biggest issue. ANy of these can be splashed into anything and be an instant wincon because of how crazy their stats become.
These 4 mons as donors are unhealthy.
 

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The teambuilder does not recognize Melmetal as an evolution, and Meltan cannot cross-evolve.

Is this bugged or is it banned?
 
With the amount of bulk that is floating around, teleport, especially with regenerator feels pretty oppressive. Porygon especially has great base stats and learns teleport. You can give it regenerator and spdef with aromatherapy from eldegoss if you need a cleric. If you're running frail set up, Aurora veil is a great option and has incredible bulk so nearly nothing can ohko.
 
With the amount of bulk that is floating around, teleport, especially with regenerator feels pretty oppressive. Porygon especially has great base stats and learns teleport. You can give it regenerator and spdef with aromatherapy from eldegoss if you need a cleric. If you're running frail set up, Aurora veil is a great option and has incredible bulk so nearly nothing can ohko.
I agree, but more because Wish + Teleport is very easy to obtain, especially when Chansey gives both and a 150 HP boost on top of that. Since WishPort is still available on viable mons even if Chansey was banned, I think that combination is suspectable.

:ss/frosmoth:
Another thing that I think is suspectable is Ice Scales. By itself, Frosmoth is very good but not particularly oppressive - it gets a large boost in SpA, SpD, and Quiver Dance, but most LC special attackers (which basically consists of Gastly and Abra lol) are not very bulky so they often don't have an opportunity to set up. The main problem of Frosmoth is that it's used on special walls to boost their SpD to even higher levels. I don't think a wall being able to get 3HKOd by a SE move off of a +2 mon is healthy at all:
+2 252 SpA Haunter-Butterfree Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Corsola-Galar-Frosmoth: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+3 252 SpA Haunter-Butterfree Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Vullaby: 177-208 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
Clefable (Togetic) used Moonblast!
(The opposing Milotic (Munchlax) lost 51% of its health!)

Pretty balance that a mon take just half HP from a +4 252 SpA Modest Life Orb STAB move.
 
It's clear by now the TL doesn't seem intent on actually doing anything, which raises the question:
Wtf is moody doing legal in this tier? Nobody wants to verse moody. It's utter shit. the only reason it's not come up is, I can only guess, because people didn't realize it was legal.
Get that out of this tier, please
 
There's a really weird bug with Illusion on Zoroark crossevos, where the Pokemon disguised by Illusion is treated as a separate mon from the Pokemon while not under Illusion, and it also shows up as typeless, with no sprite, and the name of the Pokemon that the Zoroark crossevo is disguised as is displayed incorrectly. It seems that, for example, if Illusion causes a Pokemon to appear as a Tangela, crossevo'd with Milotic, Showdown, instead of getting data for Tangela, it gets data for "Tangela-Milotic", which doesn't exist, so it appears as typeless and has no sprite.

Replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8crossevolution-1144440845
 
I agree, but more because Wish + Teleport is very easy to obtain, especially when Chansey gives both and a 150 HP boost on top of that. Since WishPort is still available on viable mons even if Chansey was banned, I think that combination is suspectable.
Honestly I don't think the issue necessarily depends on that specific combination; we already see that in OU, Teleport alone has caused Clefable to become one of the most used (and most annoying to deal with) Pokemon in the tier. It might seem petty, but I think even Teleport is suspectable. If we go back the issue of Frosmoth, I'd say it, and other bulky setup sweepers, are especially a problem right now because their very presence on a team with Teleport makes switching in, revenge killing, and prediction in general extremely punishable. Make one wrong read with a Choiced Pokemon, and that means Frosmoth gets a free switchin and wins.

The problem is that we can't even judge CE using normal standards, because I don't think any other meta, even TS or BH, has such a fundamental problem of minmaxing as does CE. Everything is either outlandishly bulky, absurdly powerful, or is somewhere in between that, without even mentioning new typings, abilities, or moves, and Teleport is just the icing on the cake.

Wtf is moody doing legal in this tier? Nobody wants to verse moody. It's utter shit. the only reason it's not come up is, I can only guess, because people didn't realize it was legal.
You're spot on with that. I didn't see anyone discuss Moody and I don't think anyone even thought that it would be legal. This should be banned ASAP.

There's a really weird bug with Illusion on Zoroark crossevos, where the Pokemon disguised by Illusion is treated as a separate mon from the Pokemon while not under Illusion, and it also shows up as typeless, with no sprite, and the name of the Pokemon that the Zoroark crossevo is disguised as is displayed incorrectly. It seems that, for example, if Illusion causes a Pokemon to appear as a Tangela, crossevo'd with Milotic, Showdown, instead of getting data for Tangela, it gets data for "Tangela-Milotic", which doesn't exist, so it appears as typeless and has no sprite.
Yeah this bug has been around for quite some time. Unfortunately, I believe urkerab mentioned somewhere in the previous thread that there wasn't an easy fix for this, so unfortunately Illusion is pretty useless right now.
 
Yeah this bug has been around for quite some time. Unfortunately, I believe urkerab mentioned somewhere in the previous thread that there wasn't an easy fix for this, so unfortunately Illusion is pretty useless right now.
I mean, if Illusion wasn’t useless it would be broken (source: BH and AAA), and this meta has enough broken stuff as it is, so I’m not really complaining.
 
I really want Sneasel to be banned already

The amount of people who don't have a Sneasel on their team can probably be counted on 1 hand

It just hits too hard,
Both Beat Up and Triple Axel 2HKO a lot of the meta
My bulky Offence that resists those moves even get 2HKO'd

I don't think I really need to explain

Also Scyther's a menace, I think for him a suspect atleast.
 
Milotic (Corsola-Galar) @ Leftovers / Iapapa Berry / Rocky Helmet / No Item
Ability: Competitive / Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex / Night Shade
- Strength Sap / Recover / Rest
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic / Sleep Talk
- Calm Mind / Flip Turn / Toxic / Haze / Dragon Tail


This thing makes me angrier and angrier the more I use it, because it's so hard to deal with on its own without a designated answer. It's just so hard to take down naturally along with its team members that it becomes a pain for ANY team to break if unprepared.

How tanky is this beast? Let me give you an idea on how suffocating this thing's bulk can really be:
Let's assume Corsola-G is cross evolved with Milotic with Strength Sap, Will-o-Wisp, and Hex with a Bold 252 Hp / 252 Def / 4 SpDef spread. Assuming no prior damage, here's how hard it is to break it in one strike:

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Sneasel x Flapple Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola-Galar x Milotic: 382-452 (80.5 - 95.3%) -- Needs SR, otherwise it spams Strength Sap. This is one of the strongest non-boosted option Sneasel has other than Beat Up or unreliable Adamant or Choice Band, also assuming it has an item being held.
+1 252+ Atk Sneasel x Gyarados Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola-Galar x Milotic: 390-462 (82.2 - 97.4%) -- Oh, okay then. I guess just clicking the Gyarados button isn't always the answer here.
252+ Atk Choice Band Water Bubble Krabby x Araquanid Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola-Galar x Milotic: 285-336 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- Doesn't work at all. There went your go-to wallbreaker.
252+ Atk Choice Band Scyther x Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola-Galar x Milotic on a critical hit: 372-440 (78.4 - 92.8%) -- Won't even guarantee a kill after SR, outstall with Strength Sap.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Zorua x Clawitzer Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corsola-Galar x Milotic: 432-510 (91.1 - 107.5%) -- A 50/50 without SR, and good luck getting this set to work because it's the strongest choice you have.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Haunter x Butterfree Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corsola-Galar x Milotic: 408-484 (86 - 102.1%) -- This can actually kill, but it needs SR to and a boost beforehand to close the gap. Otherwise it's 2HKOed by Hex even with the SpDef boost.
252+ Atk Dusclops x Gallade Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola-Galar x Milotic: 236-282 (49.7 - 59.4%) -- Needs SD beforehand to win. Otherwise, it gets burned and loses because Hex then 2HKOs. If Corsola-G decides to not have an item today, well sucks to be you, I guess.
+6 252+ Atk Doublade x Tsareena Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola-Galar x Milotic: 396-468 (83.5 - 98.7%) -- Okay, are you kidding me???

These are some of the strongest nukes available for Corsola-Galar, and most of them don't even OHKO it without SR, and not acknowledging potential partners to patch some of them and other methods of dealing with it up, such as hazard removal...
...how the hell do you kill this thing!?

This thing really doesn't deserve to be in the tier.
 
Milotic (Corsola-Galar) @ Leftovers / Iapapa Berry / Rocky Helmet / No Item
Ability: Competitive / Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex / Night Shade
- Strength Sap / Recover / Rest
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic / Sleep Talk
- Calm Mind / Flip Turn / Toxic / Haze / Dragon Tail


This thing makes me angrier and angrier the more I use it, because it's so hard to deal with on its own without a designated answer. It's just so hard to take down naturally along with its team members that it becomes a pain for ANY team to break if unprepared.

How tanky is this beast? Let me give you an idea on how suffocating this thing's bulk can really be:
Let's assume Corsola-G is cross evolved with Milotic with Strength Sap, Will-o-Wisp, and Hex with a Bold 252 Hp / 252 Def / 4 SpDef spread. Assuming no prior damage, here's how hard it is to break it in one strike:

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Sneasel x Flapple Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola-Galar x Milotic: 382-452 (80.5 - 95.3%) -- Needs SR, otherwise it spams Strength Sap. This is one of the strongest non-boosted option Sneasel has other than Beat Up or unreliable Adamant or Choice Band, also assuming it has an item being held.
+1 252+ Atk Sneasel x Gyarados Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola-Galar x Milotic: 390-462 (82.2 - 97.4%) -- Oh, okay then. I guess just clicking the Gyarados button isn't always the answer here.
252+ Atk Choice Band Water Bubble Krabby x Araquanid Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola-Galar x Milotic: 285-336 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- Doesn't work at all. There went your go-to wallbreaker.
252+ Atk Choice Band Scyther x Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola-Galar x Milotic on a critical hit: 372-440 (78.4 - 92.8%) -- Won't even guarantee a kill after SR, outstall with Strength Sap.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Zorua x Clawitzer Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corsola-Galar x Milotic: 432-510 (91.1 - 107.5%) -- A 50/50 without SR, and good luck getting this set to work because it's the strongest choice you have.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Haunter x Butterfree Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corsola-Galar x Milotic: 408-484 (86 - 102.1%) -- This can actually kill, but it needs SR to and a boost beforehand to close the gap. Otherwise it's 2HKOed by Hex even with the SpDef boost.
252+ Atk Dusclops x Gallade Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola-Galar x Milotic: 236-282 (49.7 - 59.4%) -- Needs SD beforehand to win. Otherwise, it gets burned and loses because Hex then 2HKOs. If Corsola-G decides to not have an item today, well sucks to be you, I guess.
+6 252+ Atk Doublade x Tsareena Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola-Galar x Milotic: 396-468 (83.5 - 98.7%) -- Okay, are you kidding me???

These are some of the strongest nukes available for Corsola-Galar, and most of them don't even OHKO it without SR, and not acknowledging potential partners to patch some of them and other methods of dealing with it up, such as hazard removal...
...how the hell do you kill this thing!?

This thing really doesn't deserve to be in the tier.
You forgot that Beat Up Sneasel exists in almost every team

Also Substitute exists, so no Wisp or Sap, and if it's a dark or normal type, no hex also.
 

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