Metagame Cross Evolution

I just realized something:

Blissey (Chansey) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Aromatherapy
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss

This set is allowed at the time of this post. I really want to see how this works out, cuz its basically blissey with eviolite boost.
 

anaconja

DUHH PUPLE FOG!!!DUHH BURPLE FROG???PURPLE FROG!!!
is a Tiering Contributor
This set is allowed at the time of this post. I really want to see how this works out, cuz its basically blissey with eviolite boost.
Q: How does Eviolite work?
A: Eviolite does not work on any cross-evolved Pokémon.
Just so this isn't a one-liner I wanted to share a pretty cool set In The Hills thought of that I've enjoyed using.
:sm/magneton::clefable:
clefable (Magneton) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Steel Beam
- Calm Mind / Fire Blast / Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled / Fire Blast / Stealth Rock

Although it's pretty slow for an attacker (at 95 Speed), its Steel Beams hit really hard even against resists. It can basically sit on Chansey fusions and click Calm Mind, though perhaps you'd like Fire Blast more to hit stuff like Ferroseed and other Magneton. It's great on webs where you can outspeed most non-Flying non-levitating mons.

:ss/centiskorch:
Also, Centiskorch is a pretty cool crevolution for stallbreaking as it gives you an immunity to Will-o-Wisp and Fire Lash to pressure Unaware fusions. Here's a set I used:
centiskorch (Scyther) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- Fire Lash
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
 
Hello everyone! After scrutiny and discussion of the current state of the Isle of Armor metagame, anaconja and I have come to a decision about the first in what is likely to be a series of quickbans or suspects. After taking player opinion into account and discussing our plan of action, the Cross Evolution council will be addressing some of the issues that have been brought up both in this thread and on sim. Unfortunately, due to budgeting issues regarding this announcement, all infographics have been done in MSPaint.

View attachment 260333

The first of these quickbans will be Chansey as a donor/evolution. With a staggering 150 HP and 40 SpD bonus as well as direct access to WishPort, Chansey as an evolution allows practically any Pokemon to become the ultimate team support. It's not limited to that role either - in a similar vein to Clefable in the current OU metagame, Chansey evolutions can easily absorb status, set Stealth Rocks, act as a cleric, easily threaten and spread status, and is probably the best bulky pivot in the metagame at the moment. Although Chansey evolutions are inherently somewhat passive and generally have few options to directly pressure an opposing Pokemon and lack a defense bonus, those drawbacks are nearly fully mitigated with its access to Teleport and the absurd amount of HP provided. In general, Chansey lacks opportunity cost, is extremely splashable, and can fit into virtually any team. For these reasons, the Cross Evolution council has decided to quickban Chansey as an evolution.

View attachment 260335

The second quickban is something that was agreed upon very quickly, and seems to have a fairly high amount of agreement among the community as well; Ice Scales turns any Frosmoth inheritor into a stupidly bulky special wall that can easily set up on nearly any Special attacker in the metagame as well as passive Pokemon such as Wailmer or Tangela. It isn't a slouch defensively, either - 40/35/60 defenses with Ice Scales turns practically any Pokemon with reliable recovery into a nearly unbreakable Special wall with Special bulk rivaling that of fully invested Eviolite Chansey. With its access to U-Turn, Dual Screens, and Defog, it can almost always switch in on any Special Attack while still providing team support. Although it certainly struggles with Physical attacks, the extreme splashability of any of its sets goes a step beyond invalidating Special attackers - it actively punishes even using them. Due to the aforementioned invalidation and punishing of Special Attackers, its sole abuser's far-above-average stat bonuses, as well as a consensus within the community, the Cross Evolution council has decided to quickban Ice Scales as well.

View attachment 260339

Finally, this one shouldn't take too much explanation. Moody has been banned by Smogon in OU for several straight generations. Through minimizing "player skill" and reducing many interactions to what equates to a dice roll, along with a newfound sense of accessibility and power creep due to the nature of CE, the Cross Evolution Council deems Moody uncompetitive, and as such Moody is now quickbanned from Cross Evolution.

That just about wraps up this round of quickbans. For a tl;dr:
- Chansey as an evolution is now quickbanned
- Ice Scales is now quickbanned
- Moody is now quickbanned
Note that Chansey as a base Pokemon is still permitted, and using Frosmoth, Glalie, or Octillery as evolutions is as well.

Keep in mind that as the metagame develops through the suspect and ban process, which I assure you will be happening within the next few weeks, any of these quickbans are subject to scrutiny by the community, and are by no means permanent in the case that an opposing consensus is reached. For now, keep up the laddering, as the feedback is all extremely helpful! Next up we will hopefully be looking at the current powerhouses of the metagame - Sneasel, Scyther, Corsola-Galar and Chansey as base Pokemon.

Tagging The Immortal to implement these changes, and thanks in advance!
I like the removals, but still more mons and evos need banning:

I don't think I need to explain Scyther.

Gyarados as a cross evo can be slapped on any mon and be viable- a lot of bulk, flying typing, Intimidate or Moxie, Dragon Dance,
coverage like Eq, Power Whip, Waterfall, or Hurricane, BoltBeam, Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse.
I can't think of a mon that won't work with Gyarados as an evo.

The damage output from Sneaseltop is a bit too much to be healthy for the meta.

For mons that don't need to be quickbanned:
Milotic CE- it's very powerful, however, a strong enough special attacker doesn't really care.
Corsola-G is very annoying, but I have 2 Choiced Trick users that say otherwise.
 
I've been trying to figure out why I like OMs so much, especially ones like this where you can change typing, movesets, and stats so drastically and I think it's partially because it subverts team preview and each game feels like a surprise. Creativity gives you a huge advantage over what it would normally in the standard metas.

I don't think gyarados-ce warrants banning as gallade-ce is arguably just as good and gives much better physical STAB. In a meta with a dominant ice type I'd argue flying is as much a weakness as a strength.

Scyther might need to go but Zacian I think should get looked at first. Great typing, best physical ability in the game, great coverage, and well distributed stats.

Wish port is so good but I can't really think of a simple solution to it as far as banning is concerned.
 
I've been trying to figure out why I like OMs so much, especially ones like this where you can change typing, movesets, and stats so drastically and I think it's partially because it subverts team preview and each game feels like a surprise. Creativity gives you a huge advantage over what it would normally in the standard metas.

I don't think gyarados-ce warrants banning as gallade-ce is arguably just as good and gives much better physical STAB. In a meta with a dominant ice type I'd argue flying is as much a weakness as a strength.

Scyther might need to go but Zacian I think should get looked at first. Great typing, best physical ability in the game, great coverage, and well distributed stats.

Wish port is so good but I can't really think of a simple solution to it as far as banning is concerned.
Gyarados as a CE is better than Gallade because of Dragon Dance, Intimidate, Moxie, a host of physical and special moves, a Ground immunity, massively better defensive bulk, 25 more Attack, and the fact that it’s a Stage 2 CE instead of Stage 3 and can therefore be donated to things like Kubfu, Scyther, Ponyta, etc. It’s genuinely oppressive and should be seriously looked at.

Scyther needs to go more than Zacian. Zacian has always been very straightforward; if you see a Zacian in team preview, you know it’s running Behemoth Blade, Play Rough, a Fighting move and either Swords Dance or Crunch. Cross-evolved Doublade and Corviknight Dusclops can be used to stop non-Crunch sets dead in their tracks and can generally take a single Crunch, allowing them to Will-o-Wisp, set up, attack, or whatever they need to do. Outspeeding Zacian with Ground-type Pokémon is also a good way to force it out. As for Scyther, you can’t start formulating a plan until it’s actually been sent out, at which point you’ll probably need to sacrifice at least one Pokémon.

Banning Teleport would be a solution to the WishPort problem without causing much collateral damage. It would allow us to go back to the status quo that was present in previous generations where Teleport was a completely useless move and was literally never run. However, if we ban Teleport, we’d have to have a serious discussion about letting Chansey back into the meta (personally, I think it shouldn’t be allowed even without Teleport). Also, I haven’t really had any problems with WishPort since Chansey got banned; then again, I’m running a rain team that absolutely shreds through stall and balance, so that might just be me.
 
Last edited:
Got a few sets I've been playing around with

Toxtricity (Helioptile) @ Life Orb/Choice Scarf/Throat Spray
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Grass Knot
79/98/68/121/78/105

While its stats are not breaking any records, it gets the best use out of Punk Rock that I could find, with STAB Boomburst/Overdrive allowing it to clean up very effectively.

Tsareena (Doublade) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Synthesis
- Shadow Claw
- Iron Head
79/190/200/55/99/45
Not something that's new this gen, but makes Zacian cry. Its 79/200/99 bulk is basically Regirock with a good typing and recovery, Queenly Majesty prevents Shadow Sneak/Sucker Punch revenge killers, and 190 base ATK makes it difficult to "safely" switch anything in. It's not uncounterable by any means, but it can be an answer to much of the metagame.

Gardevoir (Porygon2) @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Mystical Fire
- Recover
115/110/120/165/155/90

This 755 BST monster gained Mystical Fire this generation, making Porygon2 a bigger pain than ever with an unresistable moveset that will often hit Gyarados and Corviknight sets super-effectively. Downsides are its questionable ability and lack of STAB moves, but I've found it to be extremely efective nonetheless.
 
So Trick Room is pretty good in this meta. Here's the team I've been using (I'm aninterestingidea on showdown) https://pokepast.es/3543698376abdfad
:ss/corsola-galar: :ss/chansey: :ss/larvesta: :ss/darumaka: :ss/farfetch’d-galar: :ss/zacian-crowned:
(Xatu, Hatterene, Steelix, Escavalier, and Gyarados as evos in that order)
Xatu (Corsola-Galar) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Teleport
- Strength Sap
- Stealth Rock

Corsola-g Xatu is very good against any physical attacker exept for sneasel (which means it's ... not that great since sneasel is the best mon in the meta, but it still does well). I sorta want to replace it with something else that doesn't lose to sneasel, but I can't think of anything that would manage to do that while also being able to do what corsola does right now half as well. It sets TR more-or-less for free against any physical mon but sneasel.

Hatterene (Chansey) (F) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Teleport
- Toxic
- Wish/Softboiled

Chansey Hattrene is the second Trick Room setter on the team, and it is extremely good. It can set TR at least once against pretty much any mon. The other two moves are only going to be clicked against stall. Having toxic is quite important against stall, but stall teams are very rare, so if you want to switch that for rocks or something else it's probably fine. For the last move slot choose whether you want to be able to heal your sweepers or keep chansey healthy, either works fine; again, you're only going to use it against stall.

Steelix (Larvesta) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Flare Blitz
- Gyro Ball
- Wild Charge
- Earthquake

The first of the team's two fire/steel TR abusers. You set TR then teleport into this (or hard switch if the opponent is trying to hit chansey super effectively or has sneasel out and you think it'll go for an ice move), then you kill stuff. Good mon.

Escavalier (Darumaka) @ Choice Band
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Knock Off

It's Larvesta, but slightly different. It plays pretty much the same as Larvesta. Early game you generally want to use Larvesta since being locked into a move can be annoying. Late game this kills pretty much everything. If you wanted to replace one of these mons Darumaka would probably be the one to get rid of (though I haven't found the overlapping types to be a problem).

Gyarados (Farfetch’d-Galar) @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Quick Attack

The final TR sweeper. This mon is really good. It has a ridiculous attack stat even unboosted, and once it gets a moxie boost it can OHKO pretty much everything.

Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Behemoth Blade
- Play Rough
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance

Zacian-C is Zacian-C. It's very good; probably a top 5 mon in the meta. This can sweep unprepared teams, and it checks non-EQ Sneasel. You could switch this out for a different fast sweeper if you wanted to, but imo Zacian-C's typing makes it better than Sneasel for this team.
This team can beat most teams in the meta if played well. The most important thing to focus on is not throwing away your TR setters without gaining something important in exchange.
Milotic evos with marvel scale are a pain since this team has exactly zero special attackers, but most of the time you can beat them eventually (though it will likely cripple your team to do so). Sneasel is manageable, though if it was to run swords dance / ice shard / mach punch / EQ it would beat everything on this team exept Zacian-C under TR (but that's not a real set, so who cares). Stall is annoying, but you have two magic bounce mons with recovery; I think you're at a slight disadvantage, but it's not unbeatable by any means.
 
Popping in to say that Trick Room is an incredible anti-meta strategy at the moment. All those Scythers and Weaviles are much less tough once their speed is turned against them. I used my TR team from last gen with minor modifications (due to the Chansey ban and the Teleport buff) and it got me to second place on the ladder with an Elo of 1483 first with 1502.

Here's my team:
:Piloswine::Porygon2::Pumpkaboo-Super::Munchlax::Wailmer::Spritzee:
Stally Trick Room

Ninja'd
 
Last edited:
Hey all! Before the next wave of quickbans hits (which will at least include Sneasel, Galarian Corsola, and Arena Trap), I was going to share the stall team I went through a process of building and laddering with. Then I saw the two posts before me, thought for a moment and decided to post anyways. I would ladder with it more (currently at 1400) but the games take way too long. Other than that, I've had a fair bit of success with it, although I've had to switch out some team members at some points.


:Tangela::Wailmer::Doublade::Sliggoo::Corsola-Galar::Ponyta:
Dual Regens + Arena Trap Stall
:Tangela::Avalugg:
Avalugg (Tangela) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Toxic
- Recover
- Rapid Spin / Leech Seed

Tangela→Avalugg serves as a dedicated Ground-type check. A look at the overall team composition makes this inclusion fairly self-explanatory - overall, this team has more trouble with strong physical Ground-types than it should, even with Wailmer and Galarian Corsola. It has extremely high physical bulk, which allows it to act as a general physical wall that doesn't drag the team down. Rapid Spin allows it to act as the team's secondary hazard removal option, although that role should usually be delegated to Sliggoo. If that isn't deemed necessary, Leech Seed allows it to faze bulky Steel-type switchins.

:Wailmer::Toxapex:
Toxapex (Wailmer) @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic Spikes / Toxic
- Recover
- Clear Smog / Haze

Wailmer→Toxapex is one of the most popular bulky Toxapex evolutions, and for good reason. 130/125/125 bulk allows it to act as this team's Sneasel check should some unforeseen circumstance lead to Ponyta's early death. By virtue of its pure Water-type, it takes neutral damage from most physical attackers in the metagame, and its longevity due to Regenerator allows it to function as this team's primary physical wall. Generally, Toxic Spikes are preferable over Toxic as they provide more consistent pressure over the course of the game, but if Wailmer wants to run Haze then it must forgo Toxic Spikes.

:Doublade::Reuniclus:
Reuniclus (Doublade) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head
- Power-Up Punch
- Knock Off / Close Combat

Together with Wailmer, and due to their typings and overall base stats, Doublade→Reuniclus forms an effective Regenerator core that can be very difficult to break past. By virtue of its Ghost/Steel typing, it can check a wide variety of Pokemon, and its excellent mixed bulk and access to Shadow Sneak and Close Combat allow it to effectively pressure the opponent and also allow it to revenge kill if such a need arises.

:Sliggoo::Corviknight:
Corviknight (Sliggoo) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Defog
- Roost
- Rock Slide / Iron Head / Dragon Pulse

I first encountered this set on ladder against Pigeons, and it certainly does its job. Sliggoo→Corviknight is this team's primary method of hazard removal. It can punish opposing hazard setters with Pressure and remove them with ease due to its good Dragon/Steel typing. Its first few moves are basically mandatory, but the last move serves a different purpose depending on what it's meant to check. Rock Slide nets neat KOs on most Butterfree evolutions, while Iron Head gives it a way to pressure Hatterene evolutions and Spritzee. Dragon Pulse is useful as a general Dragon-type STAB, but has little utility over the other two options.

:Corsola-Galar::Quagsire:
Quagsire (Corsola-Galar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Night Shade / Hex
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock

In a metagame full of strong physical setup sweepers, it only makes sense to keep an Unaware in the back that is able to deal with them. Galarian Corsola→Quagsire has fairly high 100/140/140 bulk and a Ghost-type, which means it's usually taking neutral hits except in the case of Knock Off. The intent of the set is pretty clear for the most part, not much more to say.

:Ponyta::Dugtrio:
Dugtrio (Ponyta) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Earthquake
- Substitute

Ponyta→Dugtrio is an excellent trapper that can remove weakened Pokemon with ease. With a Choice Scarf, Ponyta→Dugtrio outspeeds all non-Scarf Sneasel sets, and easily nets a OHKO with Flare Blitz. Other than that, it can be extremely useful in removing opposing threats that the team would otherwise have no way to deal with.

Why exactly do you have Substitute on a Choice Scarf Pokemon?
Trap/Toxic stall something. There's not much else to run, (I previously ran Sucker Punch and Play Rough, but neither of them had any measurable utility) although I haven't actually had a scenario where I've had to use anything other than Wild Charge/Flare Blitz.

Announcement!
With that out of the way, I'd like to let everyone know that we will be quickbanning several things within the next day or so. However, I would like to open the floor for discussion on the following, as any discussion will impact whether we decide to quickban or suspect the following in addition to what we've already decided on.

:Scyther: Both Sneasel and Galarian Corsola (two of its most popular checks) are included in the next wave of quickbans, so any discussion regarding Scyther is welcome.
:Milotic: With massive overall stat bonuses, an excellent selection of moves, and being able to run several different sets depending on the base Pokemon, I have honestly seen more requests to ban Milotic than Scyther.
:Gyarados: Many of the arguments I've seen surrounding a potential Gyarados ban really boil down to "big attack lotta stats", but it's hard to deny that Gyarados is an excellent evolution, although its lack of utility options prevents it from entering the same tier of viability as Milotic.

In the meantime, I will be hard at work using the canvas of the gods, AKA MSPaint.
 
Last edited:
As I mentioned in my earlier post regarding the bans, I could support a Scyther ban, but I am opposed to banning Gyarados and Milotic.

Last gen we spent the majority of the metagame not banning anything. Sneasel was quickbanned early on, and eventually we suspect tested Type:Null, unanimously banning it at the very end of the month. Many felt that bans were approached too cautiously and want to avoid that this time. While I agree with this sentiment, and while there are pokemon this gen that certainly deserve to be banned, I feel that we are at risk of going too far in the opposite direction. There's a chance that we'll soon have seven pokemon bans (Type:Null, Sneasel, Scyther, Corsola-G, Gyarados evos, Milotic evos, and Chansey evos, in addition to a few abilities) compared to last gen's two. That's a huge difference. I honestly don't remember hearing any griping about Milotic and Gyarados last time, but now it seems there's a full bandwagon (lol).

After this first wave of bans we'll have a smaller number of megathreats, and I think that will make it easier for us to identify specific users of Gyarados/Milotic that are especially powerful and develop the appropriate counters. We may already be approaching that point--Kubfu and Farfetch'd-Galar seem to be among the toughest non-Sneasel/Scyther Gyara evos, and Corsola was the worst of the Milotic users and is now already gone. With a little more time and creativity, and without the pressure caused by Sneasel & Corsola, I think we can find ways to live with things like these.

Gyarados and Milotic also have positive effects for the meta that we do not want to lose unnecessarily. Yes, they do make many of the highest-stat LC mons extremely powerful, but they are also a huge boon for diversity, because they can bring mid-stat LC mons up to a level to compete with the big names. I'm not sure I would ever see a Sandygast, Swirlix, or Pumpkaboo amongst all the Rhydon and Scyther if it wasn't for these guys.

Maybe it will turn out that in the post-dexit generation with fewer options, the sea serpent evos are indeed ban-worthy, but please give the meta a chance to respond to the initial bans before we make that call.
 
As I mentioned in my earlier post regarding the bans, I could support a Scyther ban, but I am opposed to banning Gyarados and Milotic.

Last gen we spent the majority of the metagame not banning anything. Sneasel was quickbanned early on, and eventually we suspect tested Type:Null, unanimously banning it at the very end of the month. Many felt that bans were approached too cautiously and want to avoid that this time. While I agree with this sentiment, and while there are pokemon this gen that certainly deserve to be banned, I feel that we are at risk of going too far in the opposite direction. There's a chance that we'll soon have seven pokemon bans (Type:Null, Sneasel, Scyther, Corsola-G, Gyarados evos, Milotic evos, and Chansey evos, in addition to a few abilities) compared to last gen's two. That's a huge difference. I honestly don't remember hearing any griping about Milotic and Gyarados last time, but now it seems there's a full bandwagon (lol).

After this first wave of bans we'll have a smaller number of megathreats, and I think that will make it easier for us to identify specific users of Gyarados/Milotic that are especially powerful and develop the appropriate counters. We may already be approaching that point--Kubfu and Farfetch'd-Galar seem to be among the toughest non-Sneasel/Scyther Gyara evos, and Corsola was the worst of the Milotic users and is now already gone. With a little more time and creativity, and without the pressure caused by Sneasel & Corsola, I think we can find ways to live with things like these.

Gyarados and Milotic also have positive effects for the meta that we do not want to lose unnecessarily. Yes, they do make many of the highest-stat LC mons extremely powerful, but they are also a huge boon for diversity, because they can bring mid-stat LC mons up to a level to compete with the big names. I'm not sure I would ever see a Sandygast, Swirlix, or Pumpkaboo amongst all the Rhydon and Scyther if it wasn't for these guys.

Maybe it will turn out that in the post-dexit generation with fewer options, the sea serpent evos are indeed ban-worthy, but please give the meta a chance to respond to the initial bans before we make that call.
I think with the removal of Sneasel any Gyarados evo wouldn't care about a fast Triple Axel destroying their set-up/Ice Shard destroying their sweep.
Gyarados also likes the removal of Cor-G for if takes a hit, it will destroy your chances of sweeping with a Sap and a Wisp.
Gyarados isn't only for sweepers, his +75HP, +24Def and +80SpDef with intimidate along with giving the flying typing, it can be used by walls also.
I've also seen Gyarados being used for his surprisingly good special coverage (BoltBeam, Hurricane, Dark Pulse, Scald) and a nice +40 spatk.

so if basically any mon can use his evo, I'd be surprised if a team doesn't use it's evo.
That's why I want him banned.

Milotic on the other hand can only be used by walls/tanks, a well timed knock of basically makes it a Gyarados evo w\o the flying typing or Intimidate, because the bulk is kinda similar (+75HP +59Def +70SpDef).
Not to mention a strong enough special attack can 2hko this evo pretty easily. Really, you just need a special sweeper / powerful Specs.

That's why I don't think it needs a ban.
 
So Trick Room is pretty good in this meta. Here's the team I've been using (I'm aninterestingidea on showdown) https://pokepast.es/3543698376abdfad
:ss/corsola-galar: :ss/chansey: :ss/larvesta: :ss/darumaka: :ss/farfetch’d-galar: :ss/zacian-crowned:
(Xatu, Hatterene, Steelix, Escavalier, and Gyarados as evos in that order)
Xatu (Corsola-Galar) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Teleport
- Strength Sap
- Stealth Rock

Corsola-g Xatu is very good against any physical attacker exept for sneasel (which means it's ... not that great since sneasel is the best mon in the meta, but it still does well). I sorta want to replace it with something else that doesn't lose to sneasel, but I can't think of anything that would manage to do that while also being able to do what corsola does right now half as well. It sets TR more-or-less for free against any physical mon but sneasel.

Hatterene (Chansey) (F) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Teleport
- Toxic
- Wish/Softboiled

Chansey Hattrene is the second Trick Room setter on the team, and it is extremely good. It can set TR at least once against pretty much any mon. The other two moves are only going to be clicked against stall. Having toxic is quite important against stall, but stall teams are very rare, so if you want to switch that for rocks or something else it's probably fine. For the last move slot choose whether you want to be able to heal your sweepers or keep chansey healthy, either works fine; again, you're only going to use it against stall.

Steelix (Larvesta) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Flare Blitz
- Gyro Ball
- Wild Charge
- Earthquake

The first of the team's two fire/steel TR abusers. You set TR then teleport into this (or hard switch if the opponent is trying to hit chansey super effectively or has sneasel out and you think it'll go for an ice move), then you kill stuff. Good mon.

Escavalier (Darumaka) @ Choice Band
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Knock Off

It's Larvesta, but slightly different. It plays pretty much the same as Larvesta. Early game you generally want to use Larvesta since being locked into a move can be annoying. Late game this kills pretty much everything. If you wanted to replace one of these mons Darumaka would probably be the one to get rid of (though I haven't found the overlapping types to be a problem).

Gyarados (Farfetch’d-Galar) @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Quick Attack

The final TR sweeper. This mon is really good. It has a ridiculous attack stat even unboosted, and once it gets a moxie boost it can OHKO pretty much everything.

Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Behemoth Blade
- Play Rough
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance

Zacian-C is Zacian-C. It's very good; probably a top 5 mon in the meta. This can sweep unprepared teams, and it checks non-EQ Sneasel. You could switch this out for a different fast sweeper if you wanted to, but imo Zacian-C's typing makes it better than Sneasel for this team.
This team can beat most teams in the meta if played well. The most important thing to focus on is not throwing away your TR setters without gaining something important in exchange.
Milotic evos with marvel scale are a pain since this team has exactly zero special attackers, but most of the time you can beat them eventually (though it will likely cripple your team to do so). Sneasel is manageable, though if it was to run swords dance / ice shard / mach punch / EQ it would beat everything on this team exept Zacian-C under TR (but that's not a real set, so who cares). Stall is annoying, but you have two magic bounce mons with recovery; I think you're at a slight disadvantage, but it's not unbeatable by any means.
pitching in as someone who's been bodied by this team more times than i'd like to admit: the stacked Larvestas are really effective, since most teams only have one bulky water (either wailmer or vaporeon evo). burst through one and the other physical wall probably doesn't stand a chance. i feel there's a lot of room for other type-stacked 'clone' strats in this meta, though ive only witnessed this one + the occasional rain team on the ladder.

since everyone's pitching in samples, here's my best go at a "standard" cross-evo balance:
cool thing about this meta is that matchups tend to be super lopsided. a good cross-evo is likely going to have a few absolutely dominating matchups in exchange for being absolutely useless in others. (with the exception of stupidly fat stuff like milotic evos that can tank all kinds of hits generally well). because of this, pivot moves like teleport, flip turn, u-turn and volt switch can be quite effective, allowing you to juggle these lopsided matchups against all kinds of teams.

so i slapped pivot moves on 4/6 mons: https://pokepast.es/b0fa16b0a2bae0b2

toxapex(wailmer) is standard zacianc/sneasel check, with milotic(spritzee) as backup physdef wall. chansey(hatterene) checks corsola-g variants, butterfree evos, and blocks hazards. i've found clefable(magneton) to be amazing at getting rocks up against passive tanks, or just deleting them outright with steel beam. gallade(torracat) functions as additional control for zacianc/sneasel and gives a bit of bite to this team, allowing it to clean games when needed. parting shot lets your walls heal a little easier, e.g. after wailmer or milotic trade with enemy boosting sweepers. sneasel is broken lol.

play this by pivoting around your walls a lot until stuff gets chipped, then send in torracat or sneasel to win. against enemy magneton just press X lol. happy piloting!

lastly re: bans, i feel like scyther really isnt much of a problem when you're basically either running HDB (and fail to pick up KOs because you're basically itemless) or lefties/lo/whatever (and just get shuffled around and chipped by stallier teams). I'm also iffy on any potential Gyarados ban. While added bulk + attack + dd really allows some evolvers to shine, the lack of speed or healing really curtail its options. I've yet to see a good pro-ban argument that addresses these points, or comments on how it plays in general, so I'm really unconvinced at the moment that it's broken by any other standards than "wow! cool stats!".
 
Hello once again! After allowing the metagame to become less volatile over the past few days following the previous quickbans, it has become clear that there are a few threats that still roam unopposed. For this reason, I and anaconja will be addressing the last few quickbans and allow the metagame to completely stabilize after CE's induction as OMotM. Any potentially broken Pokemon beyond this point will (foreseeably) be handled via suspect tests. With the opening statement out of the way, it's time to move onto this final wave of quickbans.

sneaselban.png


With a high Attack stat and the highest base Speed of any non-fully evolved Pokemon as well as an excellent offensive typing, Sneasel was unsurprisingly and indisputably one of the best Pokemon early in Gen 8. Being able to check a large portion of the metagame based on its STAB combo alone, Sneasel was already very borderline after the severe power decreep following Dexit, but was tentatively allowed back into Cross Evolution anyways. However, the Isle of Armor move tutor has pushed Sneasel off of the already extremely thin tightrope of balance. Its Technician sets in particular have gotten far more popular with the introduction of Triple Axel, which is increased to an average base power of 141 and a max of 180 with the aforementioned ability. Without a dedicated Sneasel switchin or hard counter, more often than not unprepared teams will find themselves literally swept away. Sneasel is a highly versatile offensive option that has no opportunity cost for practically any team to run, is difficult to revenge kill due to its inherently high Speed tier and access to priority, and can power through entire teams with little to no effort. Understandably, the vast majority of the community has deemed Sneasel to be broken, overcentralizing, and unhealthy, and thus Sneasel has been quickbanned from Cross Evolution.

gcorsban.png


There was some discussion earlier in the thread regarding Galarian Corsola, and similar to Sneasel it was tentatively allowed to stay. However, Galarian Corsola has a few points to differ itself from Type:Null of the last gen. Once again, the power decreep is a serious issue, as oftentimes many teams will simply lack the offensive power to deal with Galarian Corsola, where it would have been less of an issue in the previous generation. In addition, its Ghost-type doesn't have a Fighting weakness like Type:Null, and due to its natural access to Strength Sap, Will-o-Wisp, Stealth Rock, and other good support moves, Galarian Corsola is more versatile and hence arguably better than Type:Null, which was known for its incredibly bad base movepool. At this point, Galarian Corsola has just filled the hole that Type:Null left and then some - large natural bulk, immensely versatile, and a wide range of available team utility. While it is decidedly more passive due to its mediocre attacking stats and is somewhat susceptible to status, this usually doesn't hold Galarian Corsola back. Due to its immense splashability, bulk, versatility, and a lack of viable checks outside of Sneasel, Galarian Corsola can be seen as overcentralizing within Cross Evolution and is hence quickbanned.

notrapping.png


The final quickban should not be coming as a surprise to anyone, but for the sake of explaining I'll provide the reasoning anyways. Arena Trap has long been considered an uncompetitive force in Smogon OU, and for good reason: its very existence can invalidate defensive counterplay, and this benefits pretty much every archetype. This extends to Cross Evolution in an arguably even less healthy way, as this metagame in particular puts heavier emphasis on teambuilding due to its immense diversity. The ability to remove a given threat at will with little to no cost was already extremely powerful in OU on its sole abuser, Dugtrio, and in Cross Evolution it's not just a single Pokemon which can benefit from this. Thus, Arena Trap is quickbanned from Cross Evolution.

Tl;dr:
- Sneasel is quickbanned
- Corsola-G is quickbanned
- Arena Trap is quickbanned

Tagging Kris or The Immortal to help implement these changes on the main server, and thanks in advance!
 
Last edited:
So are which of the bans are in place? I am finding I cannot use crossevo Corsola-G, but still can use Chansey, Sneasel, Scyther, and GyaradosCE. This is in spite of the fact that they were all quickbanned simultameously.
 
So are which of the bans are in place? I am finding I cannot use crossevo Corsola-G, but still can use Chansey, Sneasel, Scyther, and GyaradosCE. This is in spite of the fact that they were all quickbanned simultameously.
There seems to be some confusion regarding the banlist especially since the author of the main post is currently inactive, so for the sake of clarity I'll list what's currently banned.

The following Pokemon are banned:
- Type:Null
- Corsola-G (this is not yet reflected on the main server)
- Sneasel (this is not yet reflected on the main server)

The following Pokemon are banned as donors:
- Shedinja (thank u In The Hills)
- Lunala
- Solgaleo
- Chansey

The following abilities are banned:
- Huge Power
- Pure Power
- Shadow Tag
- Gorilla Tactics
- Ice Scales
- Arena Trap (this is not yet reflected on the main server)

The following miscellaneous bans are also in place:
- King's Rock
- Razor Fang
- Baton Pass
- Dynamax

Gyarados and Scyther are not banned, and Chansey can still be used as a base.

This shouldn't be a thing. As stated in the OM definition, Pokemon shouldn't be denied the gimmick of the metagame. AAA does not ban Pokemon from accessing abilities, STABmons does not ban Pokemon from accessing moves, etc... These are banned entirely. It complicates both the concept and the coding having such rules. The only form of restrictions Cross Evolution should have is:
I was essentially quoting the main post and adding on what's been banned since, but thanks for the clarification. I guess this type of ban would fall into the complex ban territory as well.

EDIT: Thanks for implementing the ban!
 
Last edited:

The Immortal

is a Site Content Manageris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Programmeris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Other Metas Leader
The following Pokemon are banned from evolving:
- Type:Null
- Corsola-G (this is not yet reflected on the main server)
- Sneasel (this is not yet reflected on the main server)
This shouldn't be a thing. As stated in the OM definition, Pokemon shouldn't be denied the gimmick of the metagame. AAA does not ban Pokemon from accessing abilities, STABmons does not ban Pokemon from accessing moves, etc... These are banned entirely. It complicates both the concept and the coding having such rules. The only form of restrictions Cross Evolution should have is:

The following Pokemon are banned as donors:
- Shedinja (thank u In The Hills)
- Lunala
- Solgaleo
- Chansey
 
There seems to be some confusion regarding the banlist especially since the author of the main post is currently inactive, so for the sake of clarity I'll list what's currently banned.

The following Pokemon are banned from evolving:
- Type:Null
- Corsola-G (this is not yet reflected on the main server)
- Sneasel (this is not yet reflected on the main server)

The following Pokemon are banned as donors:
- Shedinja (thank u In The Hills)
- Lunala
- Solgaleo
- Chansey

The following abilities are banned:
- Huge Power
- Pure Power
- Shadow Tag
- Gorilla Tactics
- Ice Scales
- Arena Trap (this is not yet reflected on the main server)

The following miscellaneous bans are also in place:
- King's Rock
- Razor Fang
- Baton Pass
- Dynamax

Gyarados and Scyther are not banned, and Chansey can still be used as a base.
Thank you for clearing that up, some people in the thread kept saying they were quickbanned
 

The Immortal

is a Site Content Manageris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Programmeris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Other Metas Leader
Is it not the case that MnM bans both certain stones and certain pokemon from evolving? Been a while since I played it mind. I gotta say, I like the current approach and think it’s appropriate given the somewhat random nature of evolutions, pretty much every abuser is the result of a ‘finished’ mon getting a later evolution, I don’t feel like these add much to ladder play
This is part of the concept of MnM. "Uber" Pokemon are not allowed to Mega Evolve. Regardless, I don't think anyone is using Corsola-Galar, Sneasel, or Type: Null without cross-evolving them so the restriction is very much unnecessary and they can be directly banned as they currently are on PS.
 
This is part of the concept of MnM. "Uber" Pokemon are not allowed to Mega Evolve. Regardless, I don't think anyone is using Corsola-Galar, Sneasel, or Type: Null without cross-evolving them so the restriction is very much unnecessary and they can be directly banned as they currently are on PS.
apologies for that and thank you for the explanation! I got the wrong idea entirely

little more on topic and the original second part of that post was a question on weather. Do either sun or sand stack up? Any ideas for a setter for either? Hail has its aurora veil gimmick but I can’t really see a team out of that
 
apologies for that and thank you for the explanation! I got the wrong idea entirely

little more on topic and the original second part of that post was a question on weather. Do either sun or sand stack up? Any ideas for a setter for either? Hail has its aurora veil gimmick but I can’t really see a team out of that
The thing is, every weather works.
You just need to evolve into weather based abilities.
 

anaconja

DUHH PUPLE FOG!!!DUHH BURPLE FROG???PURPLE FROG!!!
is a Tiering Contributor
This shouldn't be a thing. As stated in the OM definition, Pokemon shouldn't be denied the gimmick of the metagame. AAA does not ban Pokemon from accessing abilities, STABmons does not ban Pokemon from accessing moves, etc... These are banned entirely. It complicates both the concept and the coding having such rules.
Revising smellslikememe's statement: Sneasel and Corsola-Galar are banned entirely.
Also for some reason Type:Null is allowed to cross evolve so I'm requesting that to be banned entirely as well.
 
Revising smellslikememe's statement: Sneasel and Corsola-Galar are banned entirely.
Also for some reason Type:Null is allowed to cross evolve so I'm requesting that to be banned entirely as well.
This unfortunately seems to be an oversight due to how Cross Evolution handles species. You can't use base Sneasel, Type:Null, or Corsola-G, but if you evolve them they're considered separate species and thus are still usable. Adding the three to the restricted list should fix the issue.

Tagging The Immortal to implement this fix.
 

Kris

joe mama
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Programmeris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Driver Alumnus
Moderator
Revising smellslikememe's statement: Sneasel and Corsola-Galar are banned entirely.
Also for some reason Type:Null is allowed to cross evolve so I'm requesting that to be banned entirely as well.
This unfortunately seems to be an oversight due to how Cross Evolution handles species. You can't use base Sneasel, Type:Null, or Corsola-G, but if you evolve them they're considered separate species and thus are still usable. Adding the three to the restricted list should fix the issue.

Tagging The Immortal to implement this fix.
u can tag me too btw :[

anyways ive made a pullreq for this fix
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top