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D/P tiers. (READ 1st and 2nd POST)
- Thread starter Surgo
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I don't think Blissey should be considered Uber. It's powerful, but counterable. With that said, do you honestly think that a team needs Blissey to effectively wall most special-oriented threats in the OU tier? I'm not arguing, just looking for clarification.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=524881&postcount=54
Oh look, a post about why this idea is terrible that's all of 10 replies up the page. Maybe you should read the topic before you reply to it!
EDIT: beaten badly
"Blissey is a pain."
And a pain it shall stay. It cant ever kill anything, and can be exploited by a slew of set up strategys. Blissy is a pain since it takes the whole battle to kill, but its not on par with TTar. Sure you can counter ttar with a couple (JUST a couple) pokemon, but eveything else will get TRASHED on the switch, and youll follow up with a clean swap to somthing else.
And a pain it shall stay. It cant ever kill anything, and can be exploited by a slew of set up strategys. Blissy is a pain since it takes the whole battle to kill, but its not on par with TTar. Sure you can counter ttar with a couple (JUST a couple) pokemon, but eveything else will get TRASHED on the switch, and youll follow up with a clean swap to somthing else.
Although I agree that Blissey shouldn't be banned, you all know what my take on Blissey is. I'd say that the part that Jumpman put in bold isn't necessarily true. There exist other special walls besides Blissey after all, which, although having less special walling capabilities than Blissey, would still be able to wall those Pokemon.
Take Regice, for example. What can Azelf do to it? Explode? Well, you can say that about Blissey as well though, right? Nasty Plot? Well, Regice, unlike Blissey, has 100 SpAtk, and its STAB Ice Beam should be able to 2HKO Azelf even without any SpAtk EVs. Not even a Nasty Plot Fire Blast (if it has it) would OHKO Regice, not even one with the minimum neutral SpDef stat (436).
The real reason why most people prefer using Blissey is that it doesn't take a maximum 80-90% after a Nasty Plot from Azelf, but (much) less than that. It's obvious that in a competitive environment, people prefer using the best Pokemon available. However, if Blissey was never invented, we would still be able to counter Azelf and co., just as we are managing to counter Garchomp and co. with the extremely limited physical wall options (compared to the special walls) we have available.
Oh, I do agree with that too, I meant that both factors affect a pokemon's usage. Besides, Blaziken is really uncommon if you ask me.
@Orwell: Blissey is almost a necessity on teams these days. The other special walls can't hold a candle anymore. Snorlax, Regice, Sandstorm Boosted Cradily(don't ask), Empoleon, get fucked up these days. Even Blissey has a problem with certain special attackers *cough Lucario*. PorygonZ and Azelf pose a 2HKO with Nasty Plot iirc. If Blissey has some issues handling them , what makes you think the others can do it better? Blissey also takes Mence's Draco Meteors very well, 40% is pretty low damage if you ask me.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were typing that post or something and didn't notice the thread title and consequently did NOT read the 2nd post. Your infraction was reversed for this reason. There will be no more discussion about any alternative tier list - if you want that, then make a thread and highlight the ups and downs of its implementation.
No more warnings.
cool, shut up. We may or may not take ideas from this thread, but regardless the process is that we internally discuss our opinions and then open it up to the public. That's the process. If we really wanted your input on decisions like that, we would have made you a mod. "Know your role"
No more warnings.
Ambipom isn't listed - is it currently considered BL? If so, I guess I find that a bit surprising.
Well... not really... but ok.
Why would someone use Salamence when there's something called Rayquaza? Also, Metagross already has seen play in ubers as "anti-metagame".
This is so true in my opinion. This is why I think Celebi needs to stay OU. Celebi really doesn't change the metagame that much. It's only annoying to some who are unprepared. Celebi didn't improve thus it should stay where it was, like in the previous gen.
TTar in my mind is VERY situational. Rhyperior, Heracross, and Infernape totally destory it. Any fighting move totally destorys it. TTar with even 1 DD, doesn't always take down Heracross... and can't even touch Rhyperior still...
While this list is being discussed, does it mean anything?
What i mean is, will there be tournaments in the future that ban anything that isnt OU? Because, if that isnt the case, then i dont see why any debate on anything other than Celebi or Tyranitar is relevant.
Right now, teams have what this list would consider BL/UU (i go by things that arent listed) in spades and still win, so unless things like Staraptor/Milotic/Snorlax will be banned in the future from OU tournaments, why all the hubub?
What i mean is, will there be tournaments in the future that ban anything that isnt OU? Because, if that isnt the case, then i dont see why any debate on anything other than Celebi or Tyranitar is relevant.
Right now, teams have what this list would consider BL/UU (i go by things that arent listed) in spades and still win, so unless things like Staraptor/Milotic/Snorlax will be banned in the future from OU tournaments, why all the hubub?
If you're going to play the standard metagame, expect to see standards.
I belive Manaphy is predictable, and the rain is easily stopped with a Tyranitar/Hippowdon/lol Abomasnow switch-in. Plus it's harder to kill Bliss with it that with Azelf. It plays better in Ubers that in OU, though, but I don't see it that much as a huge threat. You predict a Rest, switch to TTar, and make it sleep.
Anyway, I'll watch what the consensus is, but, anyway, I'll allow Mew, TTar, Celebi and Manaphy, even if Uber...
Anyway, I'll watch what the consensus is, but, anyway, I'll allow Mew, TTar, Celebi and Manaphy, even if Uber...
And worst of all, Pursuit is actually seeing use now, unlike in Advance where only Houndoom would sometimes carry it. That alone is why Celebi should remain OU, imo. If we could deal with it in Advance, then we can deal with it with what we had back then and our new toys.
Tyranitar imo isn't Uber material ether. The only reason I can even think why this is being considered is "the SD boost" which brings its stat total up technically. EQ weak, being quite the slowpoke and 4x weak to Fighting are all things you DON'T want to be in the D/P metagame. And for the record, "I don't like seeing ugly Pokemon in OU" is not a valid reason for moving something to ubers.
I couldnt agree with you more lol.
I am however still puzzled on manaphy. But guess i wont be using it anymore =(
That's easy: Cover the screen when they appear...
That's the thing that I don't like about Hipno's proposed list and why I disagree with some of the ones on the current list. Instead of thinking how does this guy fair against standard pokemon we should also be thinking how does he fair against ubers?
Take Manaphy for example. He is in the uber tier because of the popular Kyogre and he can take advantage of his ability to set up. Right? But how is he supposed to set up if opposing Kyogre carry thunder?
As we've seen Palkia has been popular so far. The moves offensive moves uber Manaphy would carry with two spots reserved for Tail Glow and Rest are Ice beam and Surf. One hits for NVE the other for nuetral. Anything that's faster than Manaphy can OHKO especially if you're using the EV spreads in the analysis which don't use any in defense.
If Manaphy is going to be uber he at least needs to be tested first.
As far as the still debated tyranitar goes I'm assuming he's being suggested for ubers mainly because of the boost he get's from sandstream (offensive capabilities are of course also factored in). But the one thing that might make him uber is eleminated as soon as he enters the realm of ubers. Kyogre, Groudon and Rayquaza all eliminate any edge he would have had.
That was my attempt at intelligent discussion, I'll just wait for everyone to tell me how wrong I am. >_>
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