Darkrai: Just hear me out.

Cooley

Does anyone feel Darkrai can be used in OU without being overpowering?

To answer the question, yes! Darkrai is a great Pokemon, but i seriously doubt is overpowering. Of course it has great offensive stats, and ways to boost his Special Attack, but doesn't Azelf? Sure Psychic and Dark aren't the same typing, but have their advantages. Dark Void shouldn't be that big of a problem, most Pokemon who are asleep don't stay in against awake Pokemon anyway, so Bad Dreams shouldn't be argued in this discussion. I can name plenty of Pokemon that would probably do fine against Darkrai, but like most of the major OU threats, finding out what variant the Pokemon is, is the key.
Code: 
[U][B]Possible moveset #1[/B][/U]
[B]Dark Void[/B]
[B]Substitue[/B]
[B]Focus Punch[/B]
[B]Dark Pulse[/B]
[U]Decent checks/counters/safe switchins[/U]
[I]Hitmontop[/I]
[I]Heracross[/I]
[I]Metagross[/I]
[I]Milotic[/I]
[I]Breloom (defesivly EV'd and has Mach Punch)[/I]
[I]Tentacruel[/I]
[I]Gallade[/I]
[I]Spiritomb (HP Fighting)[/I]
[I]Togekiss[/I]
[I]Jirachi[/I]
[I][SS]Shuckle (Encore)[/I]

Code: 
[B][U]Possible moveset #2[/U][/B]
[B]Dark Void / Taunt[/B]
[B]Ice Beam / Focus Blast / Taunt[/B]
[B]Dark Pulse[/B]
[B]Calm Mind[/B]
[U]Decent checks/counters/safe switchins[/U]
[I]Hitmontop[/I]
[I]Heracross[/I]
[I]Metagross[/I]
[I]Gallade[/I]
[I]Jirachi[/I]
[I][SS]Shuckle (Encore)[/I]
[I]Hitmonlee[/I]
[I]Hitmonchan[/I]
[I]Special Defense Swampert[/I]
[I]Bronzong[/I]
[I]Poliwrath[/I]
[B][U]If it lacks Focus Blast[/U][/B]
[I]Regice[/I]
[I]Registeel[/I]
[I]Snorlax[/I]
[I]Blissey[/I]
[I]Tyranitar[/I]
[I]Empoleon[/I]
[I]Heatran[/I]
[I]Probopass[/I]
[I]Bastidon[/I]
[I]Magnezone[/I]
[I]Lucario[/I]

Code: 
[B][U]Possible moveset #3[/U][/B]
[B]Ice Beam / Dark Void / Taunt[/B]
[B]Thunderbolt / Dark Void / Taunt[/B]
[B]Dark Pulse[/B]
[B]Focus Blast[/B]
[U]Decent checks/counters/safe switchins[/U]
[I]Hitmontop[/I]
[I]Heracross[/I]
[I]Metagross[/I]
[I]Gallade[/I]
[I]Jirachi[/I]
[I][SS]Shuckle (Encore)[/I]
[I]Blissey[/I]
[I]Hitmonlee[/I]
[I]Hitmonchan[/I]
[I]Bronzong[/I]
[I]Ludicolo[/I]
Dark Void can put most of these counters out of commision, but just predict the Dark Void, like go to your Rest/Talker, then switch your counter in. Darkrai's lack of a competent physical movepool, will only place a Swords Dance set on a novice of a user. Mainly the Steel/Psychic's can counter or switch into Darkrai but may take a piece of a chunk. Metagross has to be ev'd specially to take on Darkrai, and have Bullet Punch equipped with its arsenal.

There are plenty of revenge killers that can revenge kill Darkrai.
ScarfGar
Scarfchomp
Scarfnape
ScarfCross
Mach Punch Breloom
Mach Punch Hitmon's
Bullet Punch Metagross
Extreme Speed Lucario
Fake Out + Ice Shard Weavile
Vaccum Wave Lucario
Jolteon
Aerodactly
Ninjask
Crobat
Deo-E


So with that being said, just look at all the Pokemon that can hang with Darkrai. He is a force yes, but so is Azelf, Gengar, Garchomp and a myraid of other Pokemon. All it will do is make the game more exciting, and brings a new face to the OU vicinty, along with Deo-E. Testing it out won't kill everyone, will it?
 
This post is a veritable roflcaust of speculation. Go play with him in OU and you'll find otherwise if you're using the correct sets. He's especially powerful in OU doubles. What is it with the glut of people advocating moving a ton of ubers into OU.
 
azelf has the defences of a tissue (hell ninjask can OHKO it) and it also cant have a 90% chance to sleep.

i have fought a darkrai yesterday and i killed it with mixape but JUST, and isnt needing variants over centralising?
 
Kietharr said:
This post is a veritable roflcaust of speculation. Go play with him in OU and you'll find otherwise if you're using the correct sets. He's especially powerful in OU doubles. What is it with the glut of people advocating moving a ton of ubers into OU.
Click to expand...

Well for 1 i can't play with him in OU, because he isn't OU, Ubers aren't allowed man. Also the Uber metagame is very divergent than the OU metagame. Jirachi is OU and is used in the Uber metgame, don't you think it's moveset diverses when it switches between metagame relms? Also, double battles are as rare as ever, so arguing that is really not going to help your cause.

phalanx said:
azelf has the defences of a tissue (hell ninjask can OHKO it) and it also cant have a 90% chance to sleep.

i have fought a darkrai yesterday and i killed it with mixape but JUST, and isnt needing variants over centralising?
Click to expand...

Ninjask will OHKO Darkrai as well. But anyway, you are missing my comparison between the two Pokemon. I said they both can raise their Special Attack and have an insane movepool. While Azelf lacks an 80, not 90 percent chance to sleep fows. It also has the addition to U-turn, Fire Blast, and Nasty Plot over Calm Mind, and can even blow up in your face. While on the other cheek, Darkrai can induce sleep, and has Focus Blast and Brick Break, and higher Speed and Special Attack. Gengar is the closest thing to Darkrai, but they still aren't mirrors of each other.

All Pokemon have variants, which is why no Pokemon has a counters, but certain variants of Pokemon have counters. So why does a variant of Darkrai over centralize, but a variant of the other Pokemon don't over centralize?

Anti said:
You can't just ignore Bad Dreams because you think sleeping Pokemon don't stay in. Rest + Sleep Talk, anyone?
Click to expand...

How am i ignoring Bad Dreams? Machamp uses Rest + Sleep Talk 90% of the time now, but once it absorbs Hypnosis from say..Gengar? Does it stay in a eat Shadow Balls? Or does it retreat and maybe Blissey comes to the becking call? I directly pointed out that a petite amount of trainers leave their Rest + Talkers in against SWEEPERS that can put them to sleep. Rest + Talker's are there to absorb sleep, once the sleep is absorbed, you can now switch your counter in without risk of immobilization. That isn't the only purpose of Rest + Sleep Talk, but it is one of them, which i think you are ignoring.
 
You are grossly underestimating Darkrai's durability. The guy packs the same base defences as Swampert; there's no way that some of those pokemon will be able to revenge kill a Darkrai that has a reasonable amount of health remaining. Metagross' Bullet Punch does 34% max, Crobat's Brave Bird tops at 70% and Jolteon's Thunderbolt barely does 60%.

Darkrai is effectively Gengar on steroids which is a terrifying proposition considering the potent force that Gengar has evolved into throughout DP. Sure, he doesn't have those key resistances and immunities to help him switch in on, but his Pursuit resistance and superior defences are a decent compensation. He has just about every worthwhile move in Gengar's arsenal (indeed, in some cases he has a superior move; Dark Void > Hypnosis, Ice Beam > HP Ice) and is superior in EVERY SINGLE STAT.

So the question is, if Gengar is the 2nd most popular of all OU Pokemon, what lofty heights would Darkrai reach if he was unleashed on OU?

EDIT:

Ninjask will OHKO Darkrai as well
Click to expand...

Jolly 252 Atk Ninjask X-Scissor vs 4/0 Darkrai = 80.14% - 94.33%
Timid 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs 4/0 Ninjask = 140.53% - 165.53%

Ninjask; revenge killer extraordinaire.
 
Azelf does not have the defences of a tissue and it can take at least one hit, sometimes you people make it seem like it's a Weedle or something...and why wouldnt Ninjask be able to OHKO it? Azelf is weak to bug and Ninjask gets STAB on it coupled with a base 90 attack stat.

Dark Void is also only an 80% chance of Sleep.

Cooley does present some interesting points, Darkrai is however pretty versatile and sometimes people forget it has decent support options like Will O Wisp or Thunder Wave and even has the option of a Physical set with either Pursuit or Swords Dance (although how good a set like this would be is definitely questionable)

I'm pretty neutral on Darkrai on the moment, but it doesn't seem it would cause as much havok in OU as one might expect. However this thread will be almost entirely theorymon, and we wont see any statistics until we actually test it in OU at some point.
 
Lee said:
You are grossly underestimating Darkrai's durability. The guy packs the same base defences as Swampert; there's no way that some of those pokemon will be able to revenge kill a Darkrai that has a reasonable amount of health remaining. Metagross' Bullet Punch does 34% max, Crobat's Brave Bird tops at 70% and Jolteon's Thunderbolt barely does 60%.

Darkrai is effectively Gengar on steroids which is a terrifying proposition considering the potent force that Gengar has evolved into throughout DP. Sure, he doesn't have those key resistances and immunities to help him switch in on, but his Pursuit resistance and superior defences are a decent compensation. He has just about every worthwhile move in Gengar's arsenal (indeed, in some cases he has a superior move; Dark Void > Hypnosis, Ice Beam > HP Ice) and is superior in EVERY SINGLE STAT.

So the question is, if Gengar is the 2nd most popular of all OU Pokemon, what lofty heights would Darkrai reach if he was unleashed on OU?

EDIT:



Jolly 252 Atk Ninjask X-Scissor vs 4/0 Darkrai = 80.14% - 94.33%
Timid 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs 4/0 Ninjask = 140.53% - 165.53%

Ninjask; revenge killer extraordinaire.
Click to expand...

I am not underestimating anything of Darkrai, he is a force, i know that. Yes he shares the same defenses as Swampert, but i seriously doubt he will use the same ev spreads as Swampert. Try and Swampert with 0 ev's in defense and see how DURABLE it is. Darkrai also has 344 HP Max, which is something you failed realize, or maybe didn't mention because it didn't help you cause, hell, i don't why you didn't mention that inadequate HP. So the comparison to Swampert was something that didn't make such a huge impact on your argument.

Also when trying damage calculations, also suggest the worst case scenario.
Metagross CB Bullet Punch -43.62% - 51.42%
Jolteon Life Orb Thunderbolt -70.57% - 82.98%
Jolteon's Pettya Berry Thunderbolt - 80.85% - 95.04%
Crobat Life Orb Brave Bird - 77.66% - 91.49%
Adamant Ninjask X-Scissor- 87.94% - 103.55%
Calculate those with Stealth Rock, and it all is worth the while.

Also about the Gengar arguement, i can't argue most of those points because you are correct. One point i can argue against that Gengar is a force but their are plenty of more minacious Pokemon than Gengar, such as Salamence, Garchomp, Kingdra, Heracross, Lucario etc. Sleep isn't that big of a scare to eliminate Darkrai's chance to be a prospect in the OU scenery.
 
It's speculation, but I'm pretty tempted not to let in basically Heatran with worse typing, a sleep move, Weavile speed, and Calm Mind into OU.

I think Darkrai would probably be broken. A good sleep move combined with Calm Mind, Taunt, great stats all around, actual durability (sorry Gengar!), gamebreaking Speed, unpredictability, etc. The only real counter would be a Careful Hariyama, and a Careful Hariyama can't do its Impish job of countering Weavile and Tyranitar as easily. Not to mention Sleep absorbers would probably need to be as ubiquitous as they are in Ubers.
 
Chris is me said:
It's speculation, but I'm pretty tempted not to let in basically Heatran with worse typing, a sleep move, Weavile speed, and Calm Mind into OU.

I think Darkrai would probably be broken. A good sleep move combined with Calm Mind, Taunt, great stats all around, actual durability (sorry Gengar!), gamebreaking Speed, unpredictability, etc. The only real counter would be a Careful Hariyama, and a Careful Hariyama can't do its Impish job of countering Weavile and Tyranitar as easily. Not to mention Sleep absorbers would probably need to be as ubiquitous as they are in Ubers.
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Most of your alagations are based of 1 sleep move. Other than that sleep move, most, if not all of your argument can be said about a myraid of other Pokemon. Lets not forget about that thing called....uuhh..what is it called.....oh yea! Sleep Clause
 
I'd say one of the nastiest things about it is pretty much nothing in OU can 1hko the thing, even with choice band and a SE attack.

This means, assuming sleep clause hasn't kicked in yet, it'll always get something asleep, add on to that a speed that puts many pokemon to shame, and a godly special attack stat. The drawbacks are the rest of the stats are merely decent.

Most of the time, this thing will always get a sub up, it'll outspeed many pokemon, and calm mind up on the way, with a special attack that anything that doesn't resist dark will be severely dented by. Add on to that sleep will probably be saved for whatever can do the most damage to the thing, and even assuming it's a sleep talk counter, it'll be worn down slowly by bad dreams if it stays in at least a little bit.


Lets also not forget he can carry Psychic in place of Dark Pulse for sweeping purposes, it loses stab, but it makes a nasty attack against its main counters. Failing that, it'll do a good chunk of damage even when resisted.


Yes it's beatable when played by a poor player on pbr or wifi, running with a set that depends purely on putting things to sleep, but even with sleep clause this thing is too nasty to be let into OU. It would completely obsolete gengar, as well as centralize the metagame towards heavy blissey usage, which we certainly do not need.
 
Cooley said:
Lets not forget about that thing called....uuhh..what is it called.....oh yea! Sleep Clause
Click to expand...
but said sleep move is still there

and you still don't touch upon Bad Dreams enough. Even if the opponent switches out. Example.

You send in Darkrai

Opponent sends in S-Toss Blissey, you Dark Void on the switch

Blissey takes 25% damage at end of turn + stealth rock, etc

so it's at 81%, max. That means about 20% less damage you have to do to beat it. You can prob'ly do that with a neutral Life Orb Focus Punch (give or take), then you're free to roam with max Sp. Attack AND Speed. If Bliss switches out, you can sleep something again and take yet more HP off of it. Not to mention how it slowly kills a sleeping opponent while you potentially Calm Mind, Taunt the Sleep Talk (thus Sleep Talkers can't counter it) and Dark Pulse continually.

a 'special' pokemon that can so easily beat the best special wall in the game, and totally outclasses one of the most used pokemon in OU - don't you think people may see through that?
Miao said:
It would completely obsolete gengar
Click to expand...
again just being fair, Gengar does have 3 (awesome) immunities vs Darkrai's (crap) 1
 
Anti said:
but said sleep move is still there

and you still don't touch upon Bad Dreams enough. Even if the opponent switches out. Example.

You send in Darkrai

Opponent sends in S-Toss Blissey, you Dark Void on the switch

Blissey takes 25% damage at end of turn + stealth rock, etc

so it's at 81%, max. That means about 20% less damage you have to do to beat it. You can prob'ly do that with a neutral Life Orb Focus Punch (give or take), then you're free to roam with max Sp. Attack AND Speed. If Bliss switches out, you can sleep something again and take yet more HP off of it. Not to mention how it slowly kills a sleeping opponent while you potentially Calm Mind, Taunt the Sleep Talk (thus Sleep Talkers can't counter it) and Dark Pulse continually.

a 'special' pokemon that can so easily beat the best special wall in the game, and totally outclasses one of the most used pokemon in OU - don't you think people may see through that?
again just being fair, Gengar does have 3 (awesome) immunities vs Darkrai's (crap) 1
Click to expand...

After reading all of that inaccurate post, all i have to say is, how does Darkrai beat Blissey 1 on 1? SToss is a 3hko. If you once again use that "sleep move" rant, then why doesn't Hypnosis Gengar defeat blissey oh so easily?
 
Hypnosis gengar does not have 90 base attack (nor dark void's accuracy . . .). While Focus Punch does limit Darkrai's move options (especially if he includes substitute), he can and will defeat Blissey most of the time 1 v. 1.

Dude, are you even thinking about why we have a sleep clause? Because it is effectively taking an entire pokemon out of the game. 6 v. 5 right off the bat seems like pretty good odds. One of the big reasons it took forever to get wobb tested is because there's a solid argument that if a pokemon can take even 1 enemy pokemon down, it's broken even; so if it can almost always do that and continue fighting, that's broken.

Dark Void is almost such a power, to essentially take a pokemon out of the game right from the start (and let's face it, even if it wakes up darkrai will just void out another one), and then you've still got a little problem-- darkrai.

So how do you feel having to switch in to face Porygon's sp.ATK, Weavile's Speed, and Spiritomb-like defenses (they share the same def tier btw), with a team of 5 v. a team of 6 right off the bat?
 
You can easily OHKO Darkrai with a STAB super effective attack.

It does not have the defensive abilities of Swampert. Saying so is incredibly misleading because base Defense / Special Defense, just like base HP, are completely irrelevant. What matters is the two combined. Consider multiplying the HP by the Defense to see physical bulkiness and you'll see it's significantly less than Swampert thanks to worse HP and less useful resistances.

Blissey is quite possibly the worst switch in to Darkrai if you haven't put something to sleep yet. Assuming Blissey switches into Darkrai while it can still Dark Void is assuming the Blissey player is really bad. That assumption should never come into these discussions. Gengar beats Blissey if Blissey switches in on X, then Hypnosis hits it, then it switches out and tries to repeat. Natural Cure Pokemon are the absolute worst things to switch into sleepers.

I'm not sure about the Gengar comparison. Gengar is immune to Fighting, Ground, and Normal. Darkrai is weak to Fighting. Gengar 4x resists Bug, Darkrai is weak to Bug. Gengar's STAB on Ghost means Fighting-types don't resist it. Darkrai gets a slightly more accurate sleep move and Calm Mind.
 
Just chiming in to say Darkrai has approximately the defenses of Spiritomb as per the defense charts in my signature. That would be ~21% (2 tiers) lower than Swampert.
 
Hmmm...
It could be interesting to test out, but I figure that once you add Darkrai you'll be seeing a lot more Insomniacs and other such pokemon. I have nothing against Darkrai per se, but the fact that you will almost certainly wind up with (at least) one of your pokemon asleep facing this thing will shake up the metagame considerably.

Just my 2 cents.
 
The point about it having decent defenses is that unlike the powerhouse Gengar, he actually won't be 2HKO'd by everything decently powerful. Granted a Fighting move will do enough to it, but I honestly can't see a case for this thing not being ridiculously overpowered.

Doesn't he get Aura Sphere? I thought he did. Or was that Giratina?
 
Darkrai in OU would be a nightmare, indeed. He might be a bit tougher to switch in when compared to Gengar, but once in he poses an even larger threat which is saying something.

Darkrai hits hard from both sides, has a better sleep move, much higher speed, doesn't fear Sucker Punch bypassing his amazing speed (or Pursuit..) and possesses an ability which even makes it a daunting task for Sleep Talkers to stay in on him.

You guys are limiting him too much by saying 'well, he has to either calm mind, or subpunch..'. There's nothing stopping him from slapping on Choice Specs with his diverse movepool and destroying everything. Or simply dropping all, but one of his support moves in favor of an 'attack now, ask questions later' set. Unlike in ubers, Psychic is usable to destroy the likes of Sleep Talking Machamp, Heracross, etc.

Darkrai does not have to run at max speed in OU either (although it sure could), allowing players to make a slightly more durable version. Or just to pack more power on a mix set.

He's an awesome Pokemon, but I don't think he'd be good for OU at all.
 
Barring Magic Guard, whatever you switch in takes Bad Dreams damage upon being put to sleep. Instantly. Add to that the fact that ST can fail if it calls the wrong move, but this is guaranteed to cost you at least 12.5% of your life per turn.

There are two sleep moves more accurate than Dark Void. They are Compoundeyes Sleep Powder and Spore. No other sleep move in the game damages the opponent upon usage (yes, I'm aware that it's not necessarily DIRECT damage, but Clefable is the only exception).


With one layer of Stealth Rock, that makes a quarter of your life for switching into a status that also cripples you for a random amount of time... if you're neutral to SR. May the gods help you if you aren't. Hope you've got a Rapid Spinner with Insomnia-- oh wait.

Do you honestly think allowing Darkrai into OU will improve the quality of the game? Do you HONESTLY think that anybody would be able to construct a team without Darkrai, given its ridiculous everything? What the fuck is wrong with you?
 
Shine said:
Do you honestly think allowing Darkrai into OU will improve the quality of the game? Do you HONESTLY think that anybody would be able to construct a team without Darkrai, given its ridiculous everything? What the fuck is wrong with you?
Click to expand...

This could be a valid argument in the beginning of his OU career (if it happens), but when great counters are found and there aren't really any more novelty movesets to try, Darkrai will just be like gengar, but harder to switch in and will get raped by mach punch (Hell, CBjask OHKOs it!)

Therefore, i do believe that Darkrai could be OU, and i think a mass testing of all the new ideas should happen
 
X1NF1D3L said:
This could be a valid argument in the beginning of his OU career (if it happens), but when great counters are found and there aren't really any more novelty movesets to try, Darkrai will just be like gengar, but harder to switch in and will get raped by mach punch (Hell, CBjask OHKOs it!)

Therefore, i do believe that Darkrai could be OU, and i think a mass testing of all the new ideas should happen
Click to expand...


You're right. All those with Mach Punch will love to switch into Dark Void, or better yet Psychic (which I bet you Darkrai would run in OU consistently). Even with a Choice Band, Adamant Infernape can't OHKO with Mach Punch.
 
A lot of relevant information has been posted already so I'm just going to say that if you want to let me use a Darkrai against your OU team I would be more than happy to destroy everything you have with it. Go ahead and try to counter it (hint: good luck doing this in OU).

"Gengar on steroids" is pretty accurate. It is Gengar, the #2 most overused pokemon, except better in every possible way. What is so hard to understand about that? Just because someone realized Deoxys-Speed is a crappy pokemon and it got unbanned doesnt mean that random user x with no intelligent arguments is going to be able to get something else unbanned. I mean, am I expecting too much when I see a thread about making Darkrai OU and then having the original poster respond to proven battlers with:

Cooley said:
After reading all of that inaccurate post, all i have to say is, how does Darkrai beat Blissey 1 on 1? SToss is a 3hko. If you once again use that "sleep move" rant, then why doesn't Hypnosis Gengar defeat blissey oh so easily?
Click to expand...

can you please think before you post? You have provided numerous claims of damage from and against Darkrai, and then dismissed them when proven wrong.

I'm not sure if I'm minimodding here but seriously what are you trying to say in this thread? Most of your Darkrai "counters" aren't even OU. You have given us no concrete information that would support your "point".

Oh, and the most hilarious thing that you are not realizing about your original post is this little gem: you are relying on revenge killers to beat it. That means that, you know, it just KOd something and there was nothing you could do about it.
 
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