Darkrai: Just hear me out.

Weavile:
1. Cant switch into Gengar.
2. Is outsped by the common Choice Scarf Gengar (and Choice Scarf Weavile is stupid).
3. Is probably 2HKO'd by Thunderbolt, not to mention Focus Blast being an easy OHKO.

So, saying that Weavile is a real Gengar counter makes about as much sense as saying that Darkrai won't rape OU with its massive power. (Note: Neither make sense).
 
Weezing and Gliscor probably don't like Guts Facade, but Dusknoir doesn't really mind I suppose...CB/Guts Stone Edge does like 40% to Dusknoir though
 
Chris is me said:
Weavile:
1. Cant switch into Gengar.
2. Is outsped by the common Choice Scarf Gengar (and Choice Scarf Weavile is stupid).
3. Is probably 2HKO'd by Thunderbolt, not to mention Focus Blast being an easy OHKO.

So, saying that Weavile is a real Gengar counter makes about as much sense as saying that Darkrai won't rape OU with its massive power. (Note: Neither make sense).
Click to expand...

Actually, Weavile can switch in fine into HP Ice or Shadow Ball, even LOed.

Hey, here's a suggestion for those who are spastic over Darkrai in OU...play with it.

That's right. Get some friends, slap Darkrai in your team, and test to see how it actually *does* in OU play. That's what I've done for the past week or so. Even if it proves you completely right, hey, at least you actually have proof, rather than short-sighted theorymon predictions!
 
Ancien Régime said:
Actually, Weavile can switch in fine into HP Ice or Shadow Ball, even LOed.

Hey, here's a suggestion for those who are spastic over Darkrai in OU...play with it.

That's right. Get some friends, slap Darkrai in your team, and test to see how it actually *does* in OU play. That's what I've done for the past week or so. Even if it proves you completely right, hey, at least you actually have proof, rather than short-sighted theorymon predictions!
Click to expand...
It can't switch into Focus Blast, so it's not a counter. But we're getting way off topic here. Darkrai has, like every other OU Pokemon, no counter. So let's see if there's another reason why it wouldn'y fit into OU.
 
Wait, so if we go back to the Hypothetical Heracross, you're telling me his set is Facade/Night Slash/Close Combat/Megahorn? Seriously?

Also since paper theorymon is still stupid, we can say that a Focus Sash Weavile can switch into any Gengar guaranteed, and still does the whole switch into anything but FB from Scarf'd.

P.S. Why was Heracross brought up again
 
Well, if Smogon hasn't done it yet, implying that they probably wouldn't, since there hasn't been much reason not to in the first place, then I would assume there's nothing stopping them from testing it elsewhere as I'm sure people have reasons as to why it hasn't in fact, been tested.
 
Yeah, because it's really easy to get a couple hundred people playing thousands of matches per day on your own "Let's test UBERS!" Shoddy server.
 
This thread had given me an idea which could make darkrai much more fair in OU, infact COULD in theory work for others but for now lets focus on Darkrai.

We all know about evasion clause which bars the use of evasion increasing moves, so why not make rules towards certain pokemon in different environments, consider banning some moves from darkrai if he is to be used in OU metagame. Now I don't have calcs or know how it would work exactly but going off his massive Sp.Atk would it not be possible to ban certain moves from his moveset (only on him) to narrow down his overpoweredness. For example cut down high powered moves for the lower powered version. Not exactly sure how this would work but just a thought i had (for example ban Tbolt from him and instead allow Shock Wave) However now looking at his limited selection of weaker moves I can see a problem emerging, I now have a feeling this could not work looking at other ubers.

Well it was a thought, however considering the fact that most people will probably just throw it out the window (unless there was like rigerous testing on moves to powerful on him for OU) I think that Darkrai should definetly remain Uber, it is like a step up from gengar...with different typeing
 
The general community as a whole (not Smogon, but I mean including every single Pokemon player) is too dumb to accept such a complicated rule. Look at how hard it is for everyone to accept how our tier system works, or that Deoxys-E and Wobbuffet are unbanned.

And yes, theorymon isn't adding anything. If you want to prove Darkrai is broken, post an analyzed log or something.
 
yeah I do suppose you are right, it's sad in a way how little play ubers see's because you don't get to see these great pokemon in action nearly as much but whatever I suppose it's not a big deal it is pretty obvious Darkrai is too strong
 
Using the current accepted definition of 'counter', naming Pokemon to counter other Pokemon is not a good idea and should never be attempted. Instead people should post counters to specific sets. Additionally, countering a sleeper set '100%' will almost always require more than one Pokemon; and Darkrai will practically always be using Dark Void. If you wanted to beat a Darkrai lead that has a known moveset and item, then you could use a fight type with a Lum Berry for example, but most Darkrai sets are going to require two Pokemon to beat.

Since theorymon is apparently not going to get us anywhere and we don't know what the most used/effective moveset in the OU metagame would be, this should be tested through actual battling and as Mekkah said, analyses of logs.

Everything has already been argued and there is not much more to say, so I suggest people start posting logs/recommending to Colin that Darkrai be unbanned if they want to contribute further to this thread!
 
Why not make a poll? If a significant amount of people want Darkrai tested, then it gets put to Colin and stuff works out like that. If not, then no-one's wasted anyone's time.

By "significant amount I mean ~65% in favour either way.
 
Kestrel said:
Why not make a poll? If a significant amount of people want Darkrai tested, then it gets put to Colin and stuff works out like that. If not, then no-one's wasted anyone's time.

By "significant amount I mean ~65% in favour either way.
Click to expand...

Polls are terrible ways to get opinions on this kind of thing, because people will just often answer whatever comes to mind without even reading any of the posts or arguments, which makes the whole thing a big mess.
 
Sleep Talkers shouldn't be afriaid of him since the standard set won't carry any moves like nightmare. Why do you think that the hypnosis+Dream Eater combo has gone anywhere. We are looking at the same concept. A Sleep Talker can destroy Darkrai. It gets 2HKOd my most moves that it doesn't resist and can get OHKO'd by super effective moves. The defenses on this are good for a sweeper, but why hasn't Tyranitar been moved to ubers. It can use rock polish and be just as good as a Darkrai offensively while being better defensively. If a Pokemon goes to sleep, it switches out and then Darkrai is just a normal sweeper. It might be able to take a hit, but so can Dragonite. Why don't we also move Dragonite up to ubers. Darkrai's stats aren't even that good. Darkrai is slightly stronger than Gengar and Azelf, but anybody who has used Darkrai in uber battles will see that it gets destroyed by ubers. I think that Darkrai should be OU. Blissey is too powerful for OU, but it is still in OU. If Blissey can be in OU, then Darkrai should be allowed in OU too.

Just look at the descition on Darkrai;s Smogon page:

Darkrai is an extremely versatile Pokémon, and the opponent will need more than one Pokémon to safely counter this thing, just like Gengar. Dark Void and Bad Dreams are the reasons why every team needs someone to absorb sleep as the Uber tier is a fast paced game, and losing one guy can sometimes mean the end for you. However, it does not have insane offense like Rayquaza or Arceus, and its power is cut rather dramatically once Sleep Clause becomes active. Darkrai is also rather frail and dies VERY easily, although not as easily as Deoxys-A. It can survive an Ice Beam, or even Aura Sphere with enough HP / Special Defense, but that isn't its area of importance.
 
muna said:
Sleep Talkers shouldn't be afriaid of him since the standard set won't carry any moves like nightmare..
Click to expand...

I won't even start on the Blissey comment, but Sleep Talkers have to be wary of Taunt for one.. and Darkrai possibly hiding behind a Substitute while Bad Dreams eats away.
 
YukiJadenSurvives said:
Dark Void is 80% not 90%.
Click to expand...

Oh great your here now haha.


Darkrai is more or less the Dark version of Gengar and well we all know Gengar has been consistently in the top 5 of the most used. So with out a doubt Darkrai would cause even more centralization. Just like the analysis says he has no counter only after a pokemon is asleep can he be countered, so it takes two pokemon just to stop him; maybe not even then because almost all of his sets run substitute. I personally don't want to have to put a Heracross with Sleep Talk in every team I make just to stop Darkrai.
 
It seems to me that this thread is more focused on Heracross than Darkrai. Which sort of makes sense because he in most cases would be the primary 'Counter'. But, perhaps already stated, this will of course cause over centralized teams.

A majority of competitive teams would, hypothetically, carry Darkrai, Heracross, Hera-Counter, Hera-Counters-Counter, Garchomp (1/4 on all teams already, So why not?), and of course 1 filler. That's my thought(s) if Darkrai as introduced into Ou.
 
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