My argument has just shifted. I think Darkrai should be uber. Even in the uber enviorment, it has no counter unless it can be outsped which only a few ubers can even accomplish. Otherwise, a Pokemon is already put to sleep and it has disabled one Pokemon before you can even think of starting to counter it. I think that it should remain uber because of taunt and dark void on the same set can completely ruin any Pokemon.
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Darkrai: Just hear me out.
- Thread starter Cooley
- Start date
Gengar can run the same set with Hypnosis over Dark Void and boast the same argument for OU...
So... in otherwords, it'd only add one more Pokemon since Heracross is already common-place? This is, of course, ignoring that there are other Pokemon that can counter Darkrai.
That description is based on the premise Darkrai is in Ubers, not OU. Or have you been seeing Rayquaza and Arceus on Ladder matches lately?
Last I checked 70 Atk/135 SA/125 Speed was pretty high up there on the "insane offense" list, and 70/90/90 doesn't scream wilting flower defensively either.
Moreover, which specific Sleep Talker do you see coming in and stopping Darkrai? In affition to losing 12.5% HP each turn they are in his presense they have to rely on the dicey Sleep Talk for their attacks.
The only one I see coming in to ruin Darkrai's fun is Machamp. Even then it might have to worry about selecting Rest or waking up as Darkrai uses Sub, and Darkrai can still flinch it with Dark Pulse and have a 100% hit with Focus Blast.
Everyone seems to be focusing on Dark Void as if thats the only thing Darkrai can do. Remember, this is basically Gengar sans Explosion movepool wise. Your Heracross may come in to counter only to find itself hit by Scarfd Psychic. Garchomp? Jolly Garchomp Is still slower than Modest Scarf'd Darkrai and faints instantly to Ice Beam. Dark Pulse can flinch anything that might try to finish it leading to a haxish but nonetheless perfectly valid KO.
And please, don't mention Blissey, it only counters Choic sets (not Banded) and can't counter a Dark Void + Subpunch set if it uses Aromatherapy.
What is so fucking hard to understand about this point?
"Improved Gengar does NOT neccesarily make it uber!"
Fine, it has awesome movepool options, and is indeed better than Gengar in some ways, though inferior in others.
That does NOT mean it's overpowered for OU!
The determination of OU status is not determined by whether it does things better than a certain pokemon, it's determined by whether it has a chance to actually dominate the game. We don't know that yet; for the most part, all we've seen is theorymon, and BAD theorymon at that.
Christ, if Garchomp was up for being let into OU, you know what the equivalent argument would be?
"Garchomp has no counters because Hippowdon is 2HKOed after Swords Dance and it can't KO because of Yache, Bronzong is 2HKOed with Fire Fang, Cresselia is 2HKOed with Outrage," and so on.
The entire anti-Darkrai "argument" is basically "It's like Gengar only better and we can't stop Gengar as it is, ban it!!!!".
Here's two suggestions:
1: Playtest Darkrai and post logs instead of trying to theoryplay it.
2: Realize that not every OU pokemon is going to have a specific counter, and there are pokemon in OU *right now* that don't have specific counters to their standard sets (again, what the FUCK counters Yachechomp and if you say Hippo I will smack you because being 2HKOed as opposed to being 3HKOed is not "countering"; furthermore, what really "counters" Mixmence especially if you Brick Break the special wall coming in to take DM?"
"Improved Gengar does NOT neccesarily make it uber!"
Fine, it has awesome movepool options, and is indeed better than Gengar in some ways, though inferior in others.
That does NOT mean it's overpowered for OU!
The determination of OU status is not determined by whether it does things better than a certain pokemon, it's determined by whether it has a chance to actually dominate the game. We don't know that yet; for the most part, all we've seen is theorymon, and BAD theorymon at that.
Christ, if Garchomp was up for being let into OU, you know what the equivalent argument would be?
"Garchomp has no counters because Hippowdon is 2HKOed after Swords Dance and it can't KO because of Yache, Bronzong is 2HKOed with Fire Fang, Cresselia is 2HKOed with Outrage," and so on.
The entire anti-Darkrai "argument" is basically "It's like Gengar only better and we can't stop Gengar as it is, ban it!!!!".
Here's two suggestions:
1: Playtest Darkrai and post logs instead of trying to theoryplay it.
2: Realize that not every OU pokemon is going to have a specific counter, and there are pokemon in OU *right now* that don't have specific counters to their standard sets (again, what the FUCK counters Yachechomp and if you say Hippo I will smack you because being 2HKOed as opposed to being 3HKOed is not "countering"; furthermore, what really "counters" Mixmence especially if you Brick Break the special wall coming in to take DM?"
What exactly will be the criteria for determining if Darkrai is OU worthy with such testing? How will a few logs help with any discussion? If anything, you'll need an entire tournament (the epitome of competitive battling) to test it, but right now there are other pokemon that have priority on our attention, such as the Lati twins and Wobbuffet.
Most of the community has realized that the definition of a counter has been defunct a few months into the beginning of the D/P metagame.
I'm all for Darkrai in OU, it'll be interesting to see how he stirs up the metagame. I'd like to see Manaphy in OU too, but that's a discussion for another thread.
Well, obviously a tournament (or ladder testing) would be the best possible environment. Unfortunately, that's not feasible right now. But simple playtesting will allow us to understand just how Darkrai plays, and just how dominant it can be.
Obviously it's flawed, and I'm not trying to suggest it's anything other than such but it's better than just spouting off reactionary junk.
Eh, I sort of based that on the kind of responses in this thread, mostly going along the lines of "darkrai has no counters waaahh".
This is my major problem with 90% of the posts that are for unbanning random uber shit. How would Darkrai stirring up OU make the standard metagame better? Just because you're bored with the status quo is not a reason to start unbanning shit left and right.
You might think "Oh, unban this thing random thing and now we have an extra option! MORE OPTIONS ARE BETTER!", but this isn't necessarily the case. It is very possible for something to limit options while not "over centralizing". Many people only want there to be one specific way to deal with something before calling it over centralizing, but even if there are a few ways to do so it doesn't mean it won't have a cut off effect on strategies.
You could very well find a couple ways to deal with Darkrai (which I don't believe is the case), but even then Darkrai could invalidate a number of currently used and effective strategies which would actually lessen the number of usable strategies. Stirring shit up for the sake of stirring shit up is a bad direction to take for a competitive community.
Also, being a better Gengar instantly puts you in the highest echelon of OU if you don't push yourself up to Ubers. There is a reason why Gengar is so damn good, and being better then that is a hard thing to ignore.
Gengar has more immunities, but less everything else. Darkrai even has a better move pool then Gengar which is saying something.
Cooley, out of curiousity, what led you to jump Darkrai directly from Uber to OU? Have you considered putting Darkrai into Limbo if your arguments for Darkrai belonging to OU does not convince a majority of the users ?
1. Cooley was banned days ago, so answering you is going to be really tough for him. How could you not notice the crossed out name along with the "banned deucer" status?
2. Limbo tier is not a real tier, and is simply used for pokemon who might move down from ubers.
So moving Darkrai to Limbo tier would not help at all.
Spot on. Even if a pokemon could be countered in standard, does anyone want greater centralisation?
Darkrai and Gengar is not exactly the most valid comparison IMO
Their typing is vastly different. Gengar has many resistances and 3 immunities (and immunity to Toxic), but Darkrai resists Pursuit, which kills Gengar with ease. This gives Darkrai a different set of counters compared to Gengar
Just because their movepools are somewhat similar, this doesn't actually mean you should overly compare them to each other; there are a few things which only Darkrai can do that Gengar can't, and vice versa
Their typing is vastly different. Gengar has many resistances and 3 immunities (and immunity to Toxic), but Darkrai resists Pursuit, which kills Gengar with ease. This gives Darkrai a different set of counters compared to Gengar
Just because their movepools are somewhat similar, this doesn't actually mean you should overly compare them to each other; there are a few things which only Darkrai can do that Gengar can't, and vice versa
Yes and no. There's a reason why Sleep Talkers are so dang popular these days, and Darkrai shuts those down hard with both Bad Dreams AND Taunt.
Look dude, if you want to see just how utterly broken darkrai is, go and challenge someone on shoddy, and start off with a lead darkrai with this set: Dark void, CM, Dark Pulse, Focus blast. Watch how fast your opponent's team dies. If you play it right, your opponent's team won't even last 10 turns. That's why it's broken.
1. Cooley was banned days ago, so answering you is going to be really tough for him. How could you not notice the crossed out name along with the "banned deucer" status?
Yeah my bad. I thought it was special rank for him or something.
And I had no Limbo was still considered the Uber tier. I'm assuming Limbo is preserved for the "weak" Ubers like Wobbuffet right?
Yeah my bad. I thought it was special rank for him or something.
And I had no Limbo was still considered the Uber tier. I'm assuming Limbo is preserved for the "weak" Ubers like Wobbuffet right?
I think it is because they fill similar roles with great special sweeping and a sleep move. They both switch in on different things, but you can't argue that the "fast special sweeper" role isn't filled by both incredibly well.
I'd say that Darkrai is much more flexible though, in its ability to actually be really good at physical sweeping too (90 base attack, swords dance), and the free damage on sleeping Pokemon is killer when people switch in against Darkrai. I'd say Gengar is pretty easy to get in, but Darkrai is much more terrifying once it gets going.
Yeah, not like a lead Lum Berry Bronzong would avoid Dark Void and then hit hard with Gyro Ball, leaving you with a Darkrai at ~30%. How's that gonna sweep a team? Then maybe they bring in Tyranitar on a predicted Dark Pulse, and now you've got a 4-turn clock because of Sandstorm with no means to recover. Seriously, you're acting like that set's completely unbeatable when one of the most common leads isn't very scared at all.
I have attempted this several times, but the only response I get is idiots saying "DARKRAI DESTROYS OU LOL" when they won't even take the time to find out if it really does.
Never mind I have one here I'll post the section containing Darkrai:
Me: mattisonfire
Opponent: uchihakid5
uchihakid5 sent out Darkrai (lvl 100 Darkrai).
mattisonfire sent out Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's intimidate cut Darkrai's attack!
mattisonfire switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Darkrai used Dark Void.
Heatran fell asleep!
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Heatran's leftovers restored its health a little!
Heatran restored 6% of its health.
---
Darkrai used Nightmare.
Heatran fell into a nightmare!
Heatran is fast asleep!
Heatran used Sleep Talk.
Heatran used Lava Plume.
Darkrai lost 53% of its health.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Heatran's leftovers restored its health a little!
Heatran restored 6% of its health.
Heatran is having a nightmare!
Heatran lost 25% of its health.
---
Darkrai used Dream Eater.
It's not very effective...
Heatran lost 16% of its health.
Darkrai absorbed health!
Darkrai restored 11% of its health.
Heatran is fast asleep!
Heatran used Sleep Talk.
Heatran used Lava Plume.
Darkrai lost 57% of its health.
uchihakid5's Darkrai fainted.
Heatran's leftovers restored its health a little!
Heatran restored 6% of its health.
Heatran is having a nightmare!
Heatran lost 25% of its health.
---
He may not have brought along the best Darkrai but I had no trouble in dealing with it. I want to see more of these damn it, I took the first step it's your turn now.
And as we all know, a single log is enough to be considered tested right? Right?
If people really wanted to test Darkrai, I doubt it would be hard to start up a tournament to test it like what is going on for all the other stuff, people just need to have some initiative. You need to evaluate it over the course of numerous battles against different people, which is why the testing tournaments are the ideal way to test it without further invalidating the Shoddy ladder.
I'm lucky, my position allows me to be lazy because I don't think it needs to be tested. Those looking to change the status quo aren't so lucky. And yeah, that was a terrible Darkrai/Player combo. Lets use Dream Eater on a Steel type, hur hur hur.
Well seeing as I already said that his Darkrai sucked, there is no need to re-iterate that. Perhaps if he hasn't the only person that was willing to help me provide data on the subject I would have played better people and Darkrai sets. If you ever see mattisonfire or Ainigma online on Shoddy send me a pm so we can test him out.
A lot of the arguments in this thread are fallacious, and quite simply terrible.
I'm not for Darkrai in ubers, I'm not for Darkrai in OU, I'm for testing Darkrai.
The original post brings up a few points. Is Darkrai really too overpowering in OU? Bad Dreams is not really an argument because you can just send in your sleep absorber, then send in a counter. Anyone who calls this overcentralizing, due to "you have to carry a sleep absorber to stop it", should realize that anyone who doesn't already have SOME plan for countering sleep is a moron, seeing how Bronzong is the most popular lead and Gengar is #2 most used Pokemon.
Okay, so let's say your Suicune just took a Dark Void, now what? 135 Base SpA seems enormously impressive, but it's not as impressive when you realize that Darkrai either is severely limited by having to use Calm Mind, takes extra recoil from Life Orb, or just simply can't boost its SpA. Gengar isn't really much of a threat from a pure attacking end, and Darkrai is hardly any better. Darkrai needs Focus Punch to prevent Blissey from walling it, but even then you either need to catch it on the switch with Focus Punch, or you need Substitute, in which case you suffer more recoil and severely limit your versatility.
I'll admit, it's hypocritical to counter theorymon arguments with theorymon arguments, but really the only way to know how broken Darkrai is is to test it. Breloom's Spore is even more accurate then Dark Void, and it's not like the extra 10% is much of a difference over Hypnosis's 70%, and plenty of other special attackers are more threatening after Sleep Clause is in effect, so I don't see why it shouldn't be worth testing.
I'm not for Darkrai in ubers, I'm not for Darkrai in OU, I'm for testing Darkrai.
The original post brings up a few points. Is Darkrai really too overpowering in OU? Bad Dreams is not really an argument because you can just send in your sleep absorber, then send in a counter. Anyone who calls this overcentralizing, due to "you have to carry a sleep absorber to stop it", should realize that anyone who doesn't already have SOME plan for countering sleep is a moron, seeing how Bronzong is the most popular lead and Gengar is #2 most used Pokemon.
Okay, so let's say your Suicune just took a Dark Void, now what? 135 Base SpA seems enormously impressive, but it's not as impressive when you realize that Darkrai either is severely limited by having to use Calm Mind, takes extra recoil from Life Orb, or just simply can't boost its SpA. Gengar isn't really much of a threat from a pure attacking end, and Darkrai is hardly any better. Darkrai needs Focus Punch to prevent Blissey from walling it, but even then you either need to catch it on the switch with Focus Punch, or you need Substitute, in which case you suffer more recoil and severely limit your versatility.
I'll admit, it's hypocritical to counter theorymon arguments with theorymon arguments, but really the only way to know how broken Darkrai is is to test it. Breloom's Spore is even more accurate then Dark Void, and it's not like the extra 10% is much of a difference over Hypnosis's 70%, and plenty of other special attackers are more threatening after Sleep Clause is in effect, so I don't see why it shouldn't be worth testing.
I don't know if you noticed, but if Sleep Talk failed just once there, your Heatran would have died.
Despite the fact that it was a completely pathetic moveset it was only due to good luck on your behalf that you dealt with it "easily". What this logs proves is that even when in the hands of abysmal battlers, Restalkers are not a viable counter to Darkrai.
Compare to this ubers warstory that was recently posted: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41101
Darkrai finished off Kyogre and Latias, before going down to a Blissey using Thunder (missing twice with Dark Void, either of which would have sealed the game). It might not show how it fares in the OU metagame, but it definitely demonstrates its power.
This whole discussion is pointless though, either it gets tested properly or instead of running 50 million different tests at a time, we can finish making our minds up about Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S. Not saying that this discussion shouldn't happen, just that right now, there's enough testing that should be focused on instead of resorting to this theorymon stuff.
How many times do I have to repeat myself, this is the third time now that I've said I know his move set sucked. I also stated further that this was the only person who agreed to use Darkrai against me, if you want to play against or use a better Darkrai then do it and provide the log. Restalkers are a very viable counter against Darkrai, Heracross and Machamp are perfect examples.