Dawning

[Deathjester]

Changes are in BOLD

Ok this is my 1st attempt at an RMT so have a little patience!

This was the 1st team i had:

And sure it was working ok. Lucario is a beast of a lead, but the same type weaknesses were too great! It just got beaten to death by earthquake, and walled by Zapdos. Which wasn't good! And don't even talk to me about Fighting Attacks!

So i switched Tyranitar for Salamence and it was working a little better.

But it still had a pretty gaping hole against Zapdos, and Baton passers

So move to about 10 battles later and i'd come up with this:

This left me with a massive gaping fire weakness, however switching in Heatran meant i generally got a flash fire boost. But i was still having issues with Zapdos, however Roar on swampert actually gave me a chance against baton passing teams.

So i dropped the swampert for an Empoleon to deal with Zapdos, at least to an extent... then after testing realised that a) it was faster than me, and b) it could OHKO me.... ooops

So i went into the tank and had a total rethink, i loved Lucario as a lead, but he just wasn't working with the rest of the team

Roserade @ Focus Sash
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP, 252 Spe, 252 SpA
Timid nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Leaf Storm
- Toxic Spikes
- Sleep Powder
- Hidden Power Ground

Pretty standard Roserade lead, packing ground and not Fire for Heatrans & Lucarios

Unless i'm predicting someone taunting (or they're slower than me) i'll pretty much always use sleep powder first.

Azelf is one of the most annoying leads to face as they generally have 3 options, as do you. Attack, Setup entry hazards or taunt. And you have Attack, Setup spikes & Sleep Powder... This means you need to predict what you think they will do.

As per suggestion the best option is to Leaf Blade and 2HKO them if they're packing Focus Sash, if not it's a OHKO.

Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248HP, 252 Atk, 8 Spe
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Bullet Punch
- Pursuit
- U-Turn
- Superpower

Standard Choice Band Scizor, this makes for a massive revenge killer, however it's also able to switch in on one of the plethora of attacks it resists and threaten with it's monsterous attack and range of moves.

Heatran @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Spe, 252 SpA, 4 SpD
Naive nature (Spe, -SpD)
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power Grass
- Explosion

Switching this in to Earthquake is obviously bad, however now my team has a far smaller weakness to earthquake, and leading with Roserade and Scizor means that a lot of people will bring in a fire type to try to kill them meaning i have a much greater chance of switching into a move i can get my flash fire boost off.
While this guy is quite slow with Life Orb over Choice Scarf, it's still pretty mental if you've managed to get rid of anything that's going to be a big threat against this build.

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP, 4 Atk, 252 Def
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spe)
- Stealth Rocks
- Ice Beam
- Earthquake
- Roar

Ice beam is the better choice here as it's not effected by Salamence's Intimidate.

Now i know this looks a lot like a lead Swampert, and that's pretty much how it gets used. Coming in on an earthquake aimed at heatran for instance and then setting up stealth rocks then Roaring through my opponents team to scout them. Earthquake allows me to switch in on Heatran / Lucario and send them away. Ice Beam/Punch allows me to try and take on a Zapdos (that's not packing Grass Knot).

Rotom - H @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP, 252 Spe, 252 SpA
Timid nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Overheat
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
- Thunderbolt

The STABed Thunderbolt gives me great type coverage against bulky water types such as Suicune and Gyarados. Also with Scarf it allows me to ourun even DD Gyrados with one boost, allowing be a free Thunderbolt which should OHKO it.

Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 24 Def, 232 Spe, 252 SPA
Modest nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Surf
- Grass Knot
- Substitute
- Agility

This is my late game sweeper, once i've rid myself of anything that can outrun this gut (or the occasional bulky water type).

Agility means it will outrun most things that are not scarfed then subbing down to 25% HP activates both torrent and the Berry allowing me to sweep their entire team without too much hassle.

Most of the rest of the team whittles down and takes out the biggest theats to this guy. If you agility and your opponent switches to Zapdos, then you sub 3 times you can even sweep the zapdos with super effective Ice Beam.

The biggest weakness for this team is Fire still, but it's very risky for my opponent to use while Heatran still lives. If you've finished off most of their fast Electric/Fighting/Ground types then you can probably switch Empoleon in one one of the move types it resists and then force the switch while using agility, and sweep through as much of their team as possible. Once it has setup it's pretty phenominal and there isn't much that can wall it out of the game. Even Blissey (assuming it doesn't have Seismic Toss) can be destroyed by a combination of this and Toxic Spikes. As as Torrented Surf will take off around 300 HP. And as previously mentioned this can even take out a Zapdos which has been hit with Stealth Rocks with a OHKO! I decided that Ice Beam was mostly uncessary as i have better things to use against Salamence, and the like. And Grass Knot allows me to sweep even the dreaded Cunes & Vaporeons with correct use of Toxic Spikes.

All in all it's been working pretty well. Once i've tested with it a little more i'll post some more infomation on the best options to counter the common leads. So far Azelf has been the one i've tested the most against.
Just to give you an idea of the type coverage that this team provides:

As you can see in all but Rock, Ground, Water and Fire at least half of my Pokemon have 50% or better resistance against any given type. However given that i have one Pokemon that's immune to each of those types it makes using them against me somewhat of a lottery!

PS.

Change Log:
1.0 Initial Team
1.1 Added the weakness table
1.2 Dropped Gengar for Rotom H, and changed ScarfRan to Life Orb Heatran

 

[Shizzle]

When Roserade faces Azelf, switching to CBScizor to Pursuit is a terrible idea. First off, if Azelf uses Rocks, then not only are you putting CBScizor into danger from a possible Fire Blast, but you also lose your Sash on Roserade. IMO your best bet is to just use Leaf Storm, so no matter what he does, you still heavily hurt him. I would also prefer to see Hidden Power [Ground] over [Fire], as it lets you hit Heatran hard [even though they carry Shuca], as they otherwise wall you completely, and you still hit Metagross the same.

I am disliking the Gengar set too, I would much prefer to see the SubPainsplit set, which is just amazing. And you really do benefit from using LO here, and Shadow Ball/Focus Blast gives you non resisted coverage anyway. I mean the only real reason to use the SubSpecial set you currently run, is to beat down Scizor, who you have 4 fairly safe switch ins anyway. Here is the set from the analysis:

Gengar @ Life Orb
Timid - Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Moves:
~ Substitute
~ Pain Split
~ Shadow Ball
~ Focus Blast

On Empoleon, just FYI:
Surf = 142.5 Damage
Ice Beam = 95 Damage
After Torrent Surf is 213.75
SE Ice Beam = 180

So basically a SE Ice Beam does less than a neutral Surf after a Torrent boost, meaning Surf would do more damage to Zapdos. Also remember that Zapdos may use Roost :S, which will mean Ice Beam still has 95 base damage.

Fairly solid team nonetheless, good luck :D

 

[Deathjester]

When Roserade faces Azelf, switching to CBScizor to Pursuit is a terrible idea. First off, if Azelf uses Rocks, then not only are you putting CBScizor into danger from a possible Fire Blast, but you also lose your Sash on Roserade. IMO your best bet is to just use Leaf Storm, so no matter what he does, you still heavily hurt him. I would also prefer to see Hidden Power [Ground] over [Fire], as it lets you hit Heatran hard [even though they carry Shuca], as they otherwise wall you completely, and you still hit Metagross the same.

I am disliking the Gengar set too, I would much prefer to see the SubPainsplit set, which is just amazing. And you really do benefit from using LO here, and Shadow Ball/Focus Blast gives you non resisted coverage anyway. I mean the only real reason to use the SubSpecial set you currently run, is to beat down Scizor, who you have 4 fairly safe switch ins anyway. Here is the set from the analysis:

Gengar @ Life Orb
Timid - Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Moves:
~ Substitute
~ Pain Split
~ Shadow Ball
~ Focus Blast

On Empoleon, just FYI:
Surf = 142.5 Damage
Ice Beam = 95 Damage
After Torrent Surf is 213.75
SE Ice Beam = 180

So basically a SE Ice Beam does less than a neutral Surf after a Torrent boost, meaning Surf would do more damage to Zapdos. Also remember that Zapdos may use Roost :S, which will mean Ice Beam still has 95 base damage.

Fairly solid team nonetheless, good luck :D

That does make a little more sense for Gengar, as i said the only real reason for running thunderbolt was for the additional type coverage of having an Electric attack which i setup behind a sub and use, but as you say i might be better off using Pain Split to damage those problematic critters instead!

Thanks for the analysis of the Ice Beam / Surf that's very useful!

Generally that means that Surf will be more effective unless i'm tossing Ice Beam at dragons (specifically flying/ground ones where it's 4x effective).

The biggest issue i'm having is:
Zapdos @ Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 Spe
Bold Nature
~ Thunderbolt
~ Roost
~ Hidden Power Grass
~ Heat Wave

I'm having great difficulty taking it down!

Some kind of Rock attack might be useful, but i'm not sure where it would sit?

 

[Shizzle]

Yeah that Zapdos set is a bitch, its personally my favourite pokemon set :P. But
Empoleon (Torrent + Berry) Surf vs 248 HP/0SpD Neutral Zapdos = (97.39% - 115.14%)
So it shouldn't be a problem, also that Zapdos can help you set up, as its Thunderbolt deals (79.61% - 93.85%).

Its hard to deal with when you don't know if it has HP Grass or Ice, but otherwise Swampert can Roar it and rack up SR damage. Can't see any rock moves, however there are alternatives, I can think these:

-Change Heatran to Sub/FireBlast/EarthPower/Toxic
-You could also change Heatran and give him Shuca Berry/SR, while then changing Swampert to a CursePurt, although this is hoping he does not have HP Grass.

 

[Arsqe]

Hey really cool team you have here, On Roserade you might want to think a little about changing Hidden Power Fire into Hidden Power Ground since you could try to deal with other Heatran leads that sort of trouble your Roserade. The other problem I see you don't know what to decide on Swampert, you might want to choose Ice beam over Ice punch so you can beat Gliscor if it decides to switchin or if Salamence causes a problem and maybe it's Physically bulky + Intimidate won't be pretty, so overall if you're in that position I would alt to Ice beam.

On Gengar you'd might want to opt into Pain Split + Substitute Gengar since it provides some type of recovery while still doing a lot of damage by using Life orb and you don't have a problem with Scizor since that might be the only thing to trouble that set. Lastly I see you lack physical attackers, if you lose Scizor perhaps your team can have a problem with Blissey so what I know isn't that useful in your team from what I see and only used as a scarfer is Heatran so you might want to replace Heatran into Tyranitar what Tyranitar provides is a STAB Stone Edge which will take down Zapdos which from your comments you have the most problems with and it'll also be able to take down Blissey and not get walled by it if it's carrying SuperPower.

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Moveset: Stone Edge, Crunch, Pursuit, SuperPower

 

[Deathjester]

Hey really cool team you have here, On Roserade you might want to think a little about changing Hidden Power Fire into Hidden Power Ground since you could try to deal with other Heatran leads that sort of trouble your Roserade. The other problem I see you don't know what to decide on Swampert, you might want to choose Ice beam over Ice punch so you can beat Gliscor if it decides to switchin or if Salamence causes a problem and maybe it's Physically bulky + Intimidate won't be pretty, so overall if you're in that position I would alt to Ice beam.

On Gengar you'd might want to opt into Pain Split + Substitute Gengar since it provides some type of recovery while still doing a lot of damage by using Life orb and you don't have a problem with Scizor since that might be the only thing to trouble that set. Lastly I see you lack physical attackers, if you lose Scizor perhaps your team can have a problem with Blissey so what I know isn't that useful in your team from what I see and only used as a scarfer is Heatran so you might want to replace Heatran into Tyranitar what Tyranitar provides is a STAB Stone Edge which will take down Zapdos which from your comments you have the most problems with and it'll also be able to take down Blissey and not get walled by it if it's carrying SuperPower.

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Moveset: Stone Edge, Crunch, Pursuit, SuperPower

I'll try out the Tyanitar and see what happens, as Shizzle suggested before i think i'll definately test the Life Orb Sub/Painsplit Gengar.

Explosion from Heatran will normally OHKO a blissey however i'm thinking of switching it to either a Life Orb or Expert Belt Heatran, as too often i'm getting the flash fire boost, and having to use a non-fire move to chase away whatever is switching in against me. Also having Blissey switch in when i've used Flamethrower or Earthpower is always annoying... and allowing me to switch to Explosion would allow me to 2HKO it with little problems.

To be able to switch back would be greatly appreciated although the speed boost is very welcome on such a slow sweeper!

 

[Nosferalto]

Hi.

Looking at your team, you can patch up weaknesses to two offensive threats - DD Gyarados and LO Starmie. Gyarados has many opportunities to set-up such as Scizor and Heatran locked into a resisted move, after a single DD, your best bet is to explode on it with Heatran but that will only work if Gyarados is Adamant since a Jolly Nature Gyarados outspeeds Heatran with a DD under it's belt. As for Starmie, it's Speed is what makes it such a threat to your team, since it is able to outspeed your whole team but Heatran who can't do much to it. The addition of a Choice Scarf Rotom-H instead of Gengar solves those two weaknesses. Scarf Rotom-H is a decent check to both of those threats as it is able to outspeed both Gyarados after a DD and LO Starmie and hit them with a Super Effective Thunderbolt. Rotom-H and Gengar have similar typing but Rotom-H is much more bulky meaning it's a superior choice as a Spin-blocker. Just use a Timid Nature with 140 HP / 116 SpA / 252 Spe and Thunderbolt | Shadow Ball | Overheat | Trick.

Other than that, I can see your team struggling to get past a Stall team. The cause of this weakness is generally the lack of sheer power to threaten an opposing Stall team and maintain the pressure. Since I reccomended a Scarf Rotom-H, the Scarf on Heatran is no longer needed. You could try out a LO Heatran instead. Fire Blast | HP Grass | Earthpower | Taunt with Life Orb. This set works very well against Stall, Taunt prevents the opponent's Pokemon from recovering HP and setting up entry hazards while you are able to unleash powerful Fire Blasts. This Heatran also pairs well Empoleon; effectively luring in bulky Water- types and Blissey (Empoleon's most important counters) and take them out with HP Grass / Explosion.

As for Zapdos being difficult to take down, it usually switches into Scizor, so you should go to Heatran to take Heat Wave and activate Flash Fire and hit it with Fire Blast.

 

[Snorlaxe]

Hi Deathjester,

Really nice team you have here, the offensive synergy is quite good, and it looks like it has the ability to easily set up an Empoleon sweep. However, Dragon Dance Gyarados looks like he can be kinda troublesome for your team; he can switch in on Heatran and Scizor's Choice-locked Fire and Steel attacks, then easily set up a Substitute while they switch. From there, Jolly Gyarados outspeeds everyone on your team, and can deal some pretty big damage. A quick fix for this would be to change Gengar to a RestTalk Rotom-H set found here. Rotom-H can switch in on Gyarados while he dances, tank the Waterfall, and proceed to OHKO with Thunderbolt/Discharge. He also gives your team a more solid switch-in against status moves, as your team currently lacks a status absorber, and Rotom-H can perform this role well.

I also think that on Scizor, you can take 4 Speed EVs and move them to HP to get a spread of 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe. This will allow Scizor to be outsped by other Choice Band Scizor, thus U-turning last and gaining the upper hand. By allowing Scizor to U-turn last against other Scizor, you are letting it find more opportunities for Empoleon to switch in and set up, so it's definitely a worthwhile change imo

Aside from that, my changes will be really minor at this point, as your team looks pretty good. You're basically always going to want to use Ice Beam over Ice Punch on Swampert, as Ice Beam hits past Salamence's Intimidate, always OHKOing. Also, Fire Blast is always an option over Flamethrower on Heatran for applying more offensive pressure to your opponent. Usually when someone uses Flamethrower it's because they dislike Fire Blast's accuracy, but if you wanna do more damage to Rotom and Zapdos switch-ins, just know that Fire Blast is always a viable choice to use over Flamethrower.

Great team, and good luck ^_^

EDIT: Nosferalto and I posted basically at the same time, and so I wanna say that his ideas sound pretty good too, and you should definitely test them out as well

 

[Deathjester]

Hi Deathjester,

Really nice team you have here, the offensive synergy is quite good, and it looks like it has the ability to easily set up an Empoleon sweep. However, Dragon Dance Gyarados looks like he can be kinda troublesome for your team; he can switch in on Heatran and Scizor's Choice-locked Fire and Steel attacks, then easily set up a Substitute while they switch. From there, Jolly Gyarados outspeeds everyone on your team, and can deal some pretty big damage. A quick fix for this would be to change Gengar to a RestTalk Rotom-H set found here. Rotom-H can switch in on Gyarados while he dances, tank the Waterfall, and proceed to OHKO with Thunderbolt/Discharge. He also gives your team a more solid switch-in against status moves, as your team currently lacks a status absorber, and Rotom-H can perform this role well.

Hi.

Looking at your team, you can patch up weaknesses to two offensive threats - DD Gyarados and LO Starmie. Gyarados has many opportunities to set-up such as Scizor and Heatran locked into a resisted move, after a single DD, your best bet is to explode on it with Heatran but that will only work if Gyarados is Adamant since a Jolly Nature Gyarados outspeeds Heatran with a DD under it's belt. As for Starmie, it's Speed is what makes it such a threat to your team, since it is able to outspeed your whole team but Heatran who can't do much to it. The addition of a Choice Scarf Rotom-H instead of Gengar solves those two weaknesses. Scarf Rotom-H is a decent check to both of those threats as it is able to outspeed both Gyarados after a DD and LO Starmie and hit them with a Super Effective Thunderbolt. Rotom-H and Gengar have similar typing but Rotom-H is much more bulky meaning it's a superior choice as a Spin-blocker. Just use a Timid Nature with 140 HP / 116 SpA / 252 Spe and Thunderbolt | Shadow Ball | Overheat | Trick.

I think i agree entirely here, and i think that one of the Rotom appliances would be good for the team. Does it matter which i use? Or is Overheat that much better than the other options?

I also think that on Scizor, you can take 4 Speed EVs and move them to HP to get a spread of 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe. This will allow Scizor to be outsped by other Choice Band Scizor, thus U-turning last and gaining the upper hand. By allowing Scizor to U-turn last against other Scizor, you are letting it find more opportunities for Empoleon to switch in and set up, so it's definitely a worthwhile change imo

This does make sense and i will test this to see what happens!

Aside from that, my changes will be really minor at this point, as your team looks pretty good. You're basically always going to want to use Ice Beam over Ice Punch on Swampert, as Ice Beam hits past Salamence's Intimidate, always OHKOing. Also, Fire Blast is always an option over Flamethrower on Heatran for applying more offensive pressure to your opponent. Usually when someone uses Flamethrower it's because they dislike Fire Blast's accuracy, but if you wanna do more damage to Rotom and Zapdos switch-ins, just know that Fire Blast is always a viable choice to use over Flamethrower.

Great team, and good luck ^_^

EDIT: Nosferalto and I posted basically at the same time, and so I wanna say that his ideas sound pretty good too, and you should definitely test them out as well

Good point there about the Ice Beam / Punch choicing i'll keep hold of the Beam that i have.

Other than that, I can see your team struggling to get past a Stall team. The cause of this weakness is generally the lack of sheer power to threaten an opposing Stall team and maintain the pressure. Since I reccomended a Scarf Rotom-H, the Scarf on Heatran is no longer needed. You could try out a LO Heatran instead. Fire Blast | HP Grass | Earthpower | Taunt with Life Orb. This set works very well against Stall, Taunt prevents the opponent's Pokemon from recovering HP and setting up entry hazards while you are able to unleash powerful Fire Blasts. This Heatran also pairs well Empoleon; effectively luring in bulky Water- types and Blissey (Empoleon's most important counters) and take them out with HP Grass / Explosion.

This would indeed allow me to run either Expert Belt or Life Orb Heatran (main reason for Expert Belt is to bluff choice Scarf)

As for Zapdos being difficult to take down, it usually switches into Scizor, so you should go to Heatran to take Heat Wave and activate Flash Fire and hit it with Fire Blast.

Indeed, i’ll try the life orb Heatran later and see how it works.

 

[Nosferalto]

Just wanted to point out that if you use 252 HP EVs on Scizor, you will be maximizing the amount taken from Stealth Rock. Since have U-Turn in your moveset, you will be switching in and out a lot, so stick with 248 HP.

 

[Deathjester]

Just wanted to point out that if you use 252 HP EVs on Scizor, you will be maximizing the amount taken from Stealth Rock. Since have U-Turn in your moveset, you will be switching in and out a lot, so stick with 248 HP.

I could always stick 4 EV's into something else other than Speed to make me that little slower... Def or SpD for instance?

 

[Arsqe]

I could always stick 4 EV's into something else other than Speed to make me that little slower... Def or SpD for instance?

The EVs on Choice banded Scizor should stay at 248 HP / 252 Att / 8 Spd the 8 Spd is for trying to outspeed other Scizors.

 

[Snorlaxe]

The EVs on Choice banded Scizor should stay at 248 HP / 252 Att / 8 Spd the 8 Spd is for trying to outspeed other Scizors.

My exact reasoning for suggesting he NOT have 8 Speed EVs was so that he DOESNT outspeed other Scizor. That way, he can U-turn after them and gain the upper hand

Deathjester, just chuck the EVs into Defense.

 

[Deathjester]

Just been testing this in Ladder matches and it's doing really well.

Roserade counters many leads and i have had several people rage quit when it's delt with their first 2/3 pokemon!

The heatran is a little slow, however the Rotom is amazing, and almost any of the pokes have the chance to sweep in the late game.The only problem is Overheats 90 accuracy! which has cost me a couple of games

EDIT: Not wanting to double post here...

Having looked at a team which is very similar to mine:
What are the benefits of running Choice Scarf Rotom-H over a more bulky leftovers built and a scarfed Heatran? Or even Expert Belt heatran?