Death Penalty for Sexual Offenders

[Chou Toshio]

"dumb" is harsher than "not the greatest" imo

in a forum it might as well equate imo

 

[iDunno]

most "debates" here end up being a few posters spouting out uniformed, ignorant crap and the rest of the posters spending page after page correcting and refuting all of the "points" they bring up, and there's never an actual debate taking place anyway

this topic would almost assuredly have turned into something similar

How are you to know if what those posters are saying is wrong? Are you saying that you are smarter than them and know everything? The real problem with those debate threads is that idiots spend more time telling other posters that they are wrong and don't bother to bring up points that refute them. Because of this, discussion stagnates and begins to become cyclical and the threads tend to die out quickly. The problem with this forum is that the general population is abhorrently stupid and likes to inflate their egos by calling out posters instead of making quality posts themselves.


@Chou: Fair enough

*petitioning to bring Congregation of the Masses back*

 

[popemobile]

more than a few times have otherwise intelligent posters stated something as though it were a fact, and then 2-3 posts later someone provides a link showing they are completely wrong. The original poster ignores the link and sticks to his guns for the entire thread, which ends up being the same thing over and over without the discussion going anywhere meaningful.

 

[orbpom123]

What did you expect? A civilized group of individuals stating opinions with no chaos. I agree on people making a joke out of the serious topic is stupid and i was kidding with the fucking cat, but calling out people because you think their particular statement was false is downright wrong.

 

[iDunno]

Those posters in question only have the power to destroy a thread because the other posters give them that power. If people just ignored them instead of calling them out, discussion would evolve despite their tenacity.

 

[Terrador]

itt: We rehash the fact that civil, productive discussion in a forum is damn near impossible.

 

[Tortferngatr]

itt: We rehash the fact that civil, productive discussion in a forum is damn near impossible.

even WHEN I have cookie's law in my sig...

 

[v]

Cong was awful in its own way

 

[Matthew]

I'm pretty sure that most everyone on Smogon knows I have huge issues with child molesters and abusers. Whether or not they deserve death for their crimes is an entirely different matter. No doubt in my mind that these people should never be allowed back on the streets (jail doesn't rehabilitate people, let's face it), and death is a huge extreme. I would support chemical castration for all child molesters; if that happened then I would gladly allow them back on the streets with no real qualms. However my biggest concern with these types of cases is the cycle that happens due to them. Often the victims become perpetrators and it goes on and on and on and on. Even if it doesn't end up like that the severe shame, disgust, and questionable feelings the victim feels can often lead to suicide.

The death penalty for child molesters is probably a safe-haven for them instead of getting a life sentence. Even criminals treat child molesters very poorly, and the type of minds which jail attracts aren't against extreme violence. Unless of course things have changed and now pedophiles are placed in their own section (though I doubt it??). While it is very shameful how this thread turned out, it can turn around if people actually want to talk about this. I'm with DM; the way you're all acting is appalling.

 

[zorbees]

vader clearly has his own agenda, trying to kill off this thread so people stop coming here and start going to his nuzlocke adventures thread.

 

[iDunno]

Cong was awful in its own way

better than this...

 

[Aldaron]

the only thing dumb in this thread is the amount of unfunny fucks ruining what could have been a decent conversation

In my computers class we were talking about online predators. Then a whole discussion started about whether we should have the Death Penalty for them.

In my opinion i thought that it was fine. These people have done a horrific crime and have probably or were probably gonna scar children for life. I probably don't know how bad death really is but that's just my opinion.

Thoughts?

While I agree people should attempt to give most topics a fair chance and not be needlessly trolly...honestly how do you expect people to react to that line?

That line alone makes the thread feel trollish, regardless of intent.

As for my two cents on the topic at hand...punishment does not fit the crime. Sorry, as awful as molesting a child is, death to the molester is over the top. I don't necessarily agree with castration for the molester either...as many forms of sexual activity involve other parts other than the genitals (fingers / mouth). I'm pretty sure (even if this isn't written down explicitly for modern times) that contemporary western society considers digit chopping or tongue cutting to be barbaric and unfit forms of punishment.

I would instead enforce stricter / harsher jail sentences and put forth the motion that child abuse / molestation enter the "permanent life imprisonment" worthy conversation (possibly for even first offenses?).

 

[Umbreon Dan]

No doubt in my mind that these people should never be allowed back on the streets (jail doesn't rehabilitate people, let's face it),

what you really mean here is american jails don't rehabilitate people (which should be obvious - treating people like their monsters isn't going to convince them to be nice). the norwegian model works far better:

Cells include amenities such as flat-screen televisions, refrigerators, unbarred vertical windows that let in more light, and designer furniture. Prisoners share kitchens and living rooms every 10-12 cells, jogging trails, and a sound studio. There are cooking and music classes offered. Half the guards are women and guards are typically unarmed because guns "[create] unnecessary intimidation and social distance". Prisoners receive questionnaires that ask how their prison experience can be improved.

The article says that although recidivism rates are calculated differently between countries, only 20% of Norway's prisoners end up back in jail within 2 years (compared to 50%-60% in the UK and US). Prisoner governor Are Hoidal was quoted as saying, "In the Norwegian prison system, there's a focus on human rights and respect. We don't see any of this as unusual."

I would support chemical castration for all child molesters; if that happened then I would gladly allow them back on the streets with no real qualms.

the vast majority of rape cases are not "i'm horny and can't afford a hooker". rape is generally not about sex at all; it's about power and control. in other words, castrating rapists isn't only inhumane, it's also a waste of time. (also: female rapists exist.)

 

[Vineon]

rape is generally not about sex at all; it's about power and control. in other words, castrating rapists isn't only inhumane, it's also a waste of time. (also: female rapists exist.)

Never bought that theory as you presented it and I know well it is a fairly popular view. While I'll agree it is usually about an urge for control in most cases, if sex is the chosen medium it is thus certainly also about sex.

That there exists a very marginal amount of 'female rapists' hardly means castration (although I certainly would oppose it, if at least for non-repeating offenders) is a waste of time. But at the same time I haven't been shown either that castration does wield acceptable results.

I'm a proponent of rehabilitation and it sickens me quite a bit how easily the concept is thrown aside by what I suppose is the natural emotional response. There should exist a chance - nothing that's necessarily automatic - to re-enter society, even after the most vicious crimes. I have no love for the death penalty and frankly very little as well for lifetime internment. I would disagree that confining a human being to jail for the rest of his days without a chance to amend himself to be any less barbaric than putting him to death.

 

[Mr. Hadwick]

idunno man you're getting awfully mad about the internet.

The death penalty shouldn't even really have to be something we have to discuss, it's ridiculous and unnecessary. It's unclear if death is even more of a punishment than the rest of your life in prison, since it's pretty much a drawn out death sentence. Also it's completely irreversible, found out that guy you executed a decade ago wasn't guilty? Whoops oh well not getting him back too bad. The justice system isn't infalible and your shouldn't treat it like it is, that's how you get shit like 1984. Not to mention people who can genuinely change, which brings me to my next point.

If you want to stop/curb crime, educate and reeducate. Focus jails as rehabilitation centers instead of just throwing people in and expecting them to be right as rain when they come out jaded and angry years later. Bring education to the poor and at-risk populations of the country instead of treating them all like criminals or ignoring them.

 

[breh]

remember to be realistic. the U.S. only has so much budget to spend.

in any case, I don't feel that making jails nicer will stop sexual crimes.

I looked up chemical castration on wikipedia; I'm not sure what to think of it. However, so that nobody else cofuses this (as far as I know, Aldaron did): it is not surgical castration. The way by which it works is the administration of certain drugs to lower sex drive, sexual fantasies, etc., which in turn is supposed to stop sexual offenders from carrying out said fantasies.

 

[Thorns]

Yeah, basically this.

It depends on what you consider the task of the death penalty is. In practice, it doesn't act as an effective deterrant factor. However, prison doesn't act as an effective rehabilitator, and ineffective administration has repeatedly allowed sexual offenders (among others) to be released early for good behaviour or otherwise (in some cases, despite the offender telling the parole board they would reoffend) - it is therefore a much more cost-effective punishment solution to have a death penalty, but because of the automatic appeals and jury reticence to convict for it, the costs of the trial itself rocket up.

I'd say a better reform would be making the sexual assault legal procedure less chauvinistic - currently (in Aus, at least) the very structure of sexual assault charges are different and defendant-biased to every other crime.

chalk this up more to the american-style court system we have more than anything, cases are won by rape victims not reporting at all because they're scared of what's going to happen to them in court

 

[Chou Toshio]

What did you expect? A civilized group of individuals stating opinions with no chaos. I agree on people making a joke out of the serious topic is stupid and i was kidding with the fucking cat, but calling out people because you think their particular statement was false is downright wrong.

Wait what? If you're discussing something and you think the other side said something wrong, you damn well better point out that you think their wrong. Otherwise, what's the point of debate?

 

[Mr. Hadwick]

remember to be realistic. the U.S. only has so much budget to spend.

in any case, I don't feel that making jails nicer will stop sexual crimes.

No they don't, but if they cut military spending by even 1/3rd they could pay for all of it, or if they stopped bailing out banks.

Also Norway would like to have a word with you, the quote is like three posts above mine, see if you can make it there alright by yourself.

 

[Fishy]

the point of jails/imprisonment was never to demean human beings for the crimes that they've done - it's simply confinement to keep them away from the rest of society whilst their fates are decided through court, for their own well being and everyone else's.

why not make jails more pleasant? it's not as if those imprisoned in norway feel that they're on vacation - they have amenities that remind/introduce them to living styles that should be customary, and preferable. it's really not an insane idea to create an environment that promotes good feeling rather than bitterness and despair, especially because not everyone in prison is going to be there for life. i would rather a convict be received back into society with his chin higher up than his head hung lower, even more dejected and antsier to rebel against social norms.

any death of a human being is an irreplaceable loss, but that idea has been so muddled and cheapened by the death penalty, by principle. "if you kill someone we'll just kill you back!" though I have my personal opinions about rapists and murderers, I'm trying to look at this as objectively as possible. anyone who wants to jump to using death as a penalty for crime is stupid - ceasing someone's life for their actions does not allow them to learn from their mistake, and sets an even worse example for the rest of humanity. the death penalty is a threat, and since when was threatening someone the best way to motivate them to behave?

however, i 100% believe that no mercy should be given to repeat offenders of serious crimes. if someone can't amend themselves after the first time, they've lost their chance, and they're well aware of what they're giving up by committing their crimes again.

 

[iDunno]

idunno man you're getting awfully mad about the internet.

Trust me - if people acted this way outside the internet, I would react no differently because, to me, the internet is actually an extension of the real world instead of an escape from the real world. (probably would be more subtle about it in reality though) I just hate how people feel as though the internet gives a license to forgo social etiquette of the real world and act like retards at the expense of others.

Actually, Fishy, in America the prison system was first established as just what you said it wasn't: It was a way to humiliate people and demean them for their crimes. Let it be the Salem Witch trials or even something as pointless as adultery, the death penalty followed both in many cases. Sadly, this mentality was pioneered by the Northern colonies, which, coincidentally, are the ones who ended up taking over the rest of the Eastern seaboard and established the first Federal Government. With the writing of the Constitution, this has been amended considerably; however, the irrational fear of sin has still been inherited (I dare say genetically) from these early ancestors and is totally dominant in our modern society. This could explain the horrible conditions of neglect these prisoners endure today. To us, they are not people and they will never be functioning members of society no matter what. It's really sickening when I watch a Tea Party Republican debate (in order to get a good chuckle) and I hear the audience cheer like little kids whenever the Death Penalty is mentioned favorably.

 

[breh]

Also Norway would like to have a word with you, the quote is like three posts above mine, see if you can make it there alright by yourself.

although I fear that I stray from the point, note that norway is the second richest country in the world and that that statistic does not specify which classes of offenders return.

EDIT: clearly, I can't read wikipedia.

 

[iDunno]

To be fair, their population in Norway is around 5,000,000 while ours is around 350,000,000...

Also, @ Breludicolo...

they're more like the 45th richest country...

They are 1st in GDP Per Capita, however.

 

[MrIndigo]

the point of jails/imprisonment was never to demean human beings for the crimes that they've done - it's simply confinement to keep them away from the rest of society whilst their fates are decided through court, for their own well being and everyone else's.

why not make jails more pleasant? it's not as if those imprisoned in norway feel that they're on vacation - they have amenities that remind/introduce them to living styles that should be customary, and preferable. it's really not an insane idea to create an environment that promotes good feeling rather than bitterness and despair, especially because not everyone in prison is going to be there for life. i would rather a convict be received back into society with his chin higher up than his head hung lower, even more dejected and antsier to rebel against social norms.

Part of it is that there are plenty of people who have not done things considered morally wrong who have a lower standard of life than what they get in prison.

This is both morally outrageous (in the sense that people get outraged by it), but also sets up bad incentives for those people who are in those lower standards of living - it encourages them to commit crimes to improve their circumstances.

The reverse is also true - if the experience of being imprisoned is not sufficiently unpleasant, it does not act as a deterrant so more people commit crimes.

any death of a human being is an irreplaceable loss, but that idea has been so muddled and cheapened by the death penalty, by principle. "if you kill someone we'll just kill you back!" though I have my personal opinions about rapists and murderers, I'm trying to look at this as objectively as possible. anyone who wants to jump to using death as a penalty for crime is stupid - ceasing someone's life for their actions does not allow them to learn from their mistake, and sets an even worse example for the rest of humanity. the death penalty is a threat, and since when was threatening someone the best way to motivate them to behave?

I personally agree that the retributive aspect of death penalty is somewhat stupid. That said, there is some relevance to catering to the public desire for vengeance (a legal system MUST maintain the respect of the public, even when the public are stupid or wrong, because when it loses that respect then noone obeys it and you get the problems of vigilanteism and increased crime due to reduced incentives; justice must be done and be seen to be done).

However, I think the best arguments for death penalty are efficiency arguments, and in practice I think the evidence suggests the death penalty does not improve efficiency of the legal system overall.

 

[Trax]

Life in prison imo, cheaper and probably more brutal.