Even on Sun, I would rather run Roost over Synthesis because A) Roost has double the PP and B) you're just asking for Rain, (which is pretty good right now,) to dick you over.
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Pokémon Decidueye
- Thread starter Jaguar360
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You say this about Decidueye, yet every point you made can be applied to Clefable, the literal god of ORAS OU. On paper, Decidueye is a trashy mon that doesn't do much.
...Until you look back on my post about role compression. I'm not calling Decidueye the second coming of Clef but there's more to a mon's viability than stats and typing. Nobody ever wants to bring up the actual meta when talking about a mon. Some mons are inherently good and will always be OU (Garchomp, Heatran, Tyranitar are a few examples), meanwhile the meta shifts and constantly changes, making mons that weren't favored before applicable to the state of said meta. Tangrowth and Mega Latias from ORAS are amazing examples of this. Decidueye won't renovate OU but its niche will stay and how good it'll be will change in time
Clef doesnt have a bad defensive typing lol and also has an amazing ability that compliments it well i dont see how the two are at all comparable...but we can just talk about the mon itself without arguing about how good it is or isnt cuz clearly we dont agree and we will leave it at that fren :]
Are you trying to make a point or just berate people for analyzing the strengths of Decidueye?
And ghost/grass isn't a bad defensive typing at all.
Grass/Ghost isn't a bad defensive typing, Gourgeist made it work pretty well and Decidueye's better than it. 5 weaknesses, yeah, but it's got resistances to really good and common types in Water, Electric and Ground, immunity to Fighting and Normal, and immunity to powder moves and Leech Seed. It can't be trapped either and has reliable recovery and a solid handful of utility moves it can use. I've already listed relevant mons it checks nearly every post I've made on the last two pages. It's got everything it needs to play a defensive role aside from maybe Wisp or Glare.
Am I not allowed to say anything negative about the pokemon damn...Im not telling anyone not to talk about it, Im sitting here talking about it myself I dont why youre so bothered.
Sorry, I guess I am a bit on tilt, but most of the criticism I've been seeing has either not been very constructive or accurate outside of bludz's post and some of the ones you posted earlier for the most part. The last post I posted was clearing up something I thought was off. I don't mean to stay that Decidueye's a godsend or solid OU or anything and I don't think anyone else is, but it's also clearly got it's own merits and some people have just been talking about it so negatively to the point of shooting down its growth.
As clever as that sounds, Quiver Dance reads more like this:
"The user lightly performs a beautiful, mystic dance. This boosts the user's Sp. Atk, Sp. Def, and Speed stats."
By that description it wouldn't make too much sense for it to get QD, whereas something like Jynx or Oricorio (RIP they couldn't get it) would be WAY better suited to a move like this. However, they gave the shitty Bug type that buff instead (and some grass types too because fuck it).
As to this Pokemon's strengths, I'll compile a list later of checks, counters, and other things for this mon.
-EDIT- oops the remark that WAS here was old and irrelevant.
Iiiiiiiiii think the 'quiver as in archer's quiver haha' thing was meant to be a joke.
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The comparison for those two made no sense
Clefable have godlike movepool. It learns Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave, Icebeam, Thunder Wave, Moonblast, Thunder Wave, Flamethrower, Thunder Wave, Focus Blast, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell, Thunder Wave, Calm Mind, Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Knock Off, and Thunder Wave 60% of Clefable movepool suffer heavy nerf in Gen 7, but that doesn't change the fact that its an extremely wide movepool
Ability wise, Clefable also got no less than 2 of the most overpowered ability in the game on Unaware and Magic Guard. Decidueye got what again? A HA thats only use is U turn now did not hit Rocky Helmet, and Overgrow
Stats wise, 3 out of 4 stats that Clefable use is actually on the usable(Special Attack-95) range or good range(95/90 Special Bulk is only 10% less tanky than Mantine, a literal Skarmory clone on special side). Yes this stats looks like a joke compared to other OU mons, but lets not forget that Magic Guard exists to make it much better than it seems to be. And Entry Hazzard is overpowered in this game, that the amount of extra BST clefable got from Magic Guard is downright disgusting
Clefable have godlike movepool. It learns Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave, Icebeam, Thunder Wave, Moonblast, Thunder Wave, Flamethrower, Thunder Wave, Focus Blast, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell, Thunder Wave, Calm Mind, Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Knock Off, and Thunder Wave 60% of Clefable movepool suffer heavy nerf in Gen 7, but that doesn't change the fact that its an extremely wide movepool
Ability wise, Clefable also got no less than 2 of the most overpowered ability in the game on Unaware and Magic Guard. Decidueye got what again? A HA thats only use is U turn now did not hit Rocky Helmet, and Overgrow
Stats wise, 3 out of 4 stats that Clefable use is actually on the usable(Special Attack-95) range or good range(95/90 Special Bulk is only 10% less tanky than Mantine, a literal Skarmory clone on special side). Yes this stats looks like a joke compared to other OU mons, but lets not forget that Magic Guard exists to make it much better than it seems to be. And Entry Hazzard is overpowered in this game, that the amount of extra BST clefable got from Magic Guard is downright disgusting
I demand this be a new Smogon meme.
Sure, I'll bite. Was playing around with Decid on a team I threw together in like 2 minutes (Decid, Pheromosa, Toxapex, Lycanroc, Greninja, Megazard X), went from default rating to like 1125ish (still very low) when I was done. Pokebank OU. Set was Adamant Decid Assault Vest 248 HP/252 ATK/8 SpD, Leaf Blade/Sucker Punch/U-Turn/Spirit Shackle.
Decid was quite bulky with this build. It killed a Thundurus-T for me with ease; took like 15% from Thunderbolt, 35% from HP Ice if I recall correctly. The thing about Decid is that Spirit Shackle -> Sucker Punch/U-Turn/natural switch is an awesome, easy pattern. Shackle restricts their options immensely, and Shackle -> Sucker Punch kills most frail sweepers, and if they switch to something bulky, you just to choose the best matchup while they are locked in for one turn.
If I try again will probably be using Adamant, similar spread, Leftovers, Spirit Shackle/Leaf Blade (STAB is super useful and hits hard)/Sucker Punch/Roost. U-Turn is nice, but not really needed. Decid has serious 4 MSS though, between Shackle/Leaf Blade/Sucker Punch/U-Turn/Roost/Defog/Substitute/Toxic all being options. Special sets avoid this but seem awful outside of surprise factor (Energy Ball/Shadow Ball/Hidden Power coverage, -7 offenses, can never break a Chansey/Blissey, etc).
I understand the skepticism you have, but yeah, I've used this thing a lot. I'll make some quick notes for general building with this thing if you'd like.
-Not the most splashable, but still a good choice for a bulky grass
-Needs another bulky mon to compliment it (Which is why Mega Gyara + Decidueye is so good)
-Wants to provide as much "babysitting" (basically cover as much for a mon as possible resistance-wise while providing them a slow U-Turn or Baton Pass to safely get them in) as possible
-Absolutely loves fucking with Stall teams, so it's a good option if you're struggling with those a bit.
-Not the BEST mon against offense, since it has very obvious things on said playstyle that can beat it (Ice Types, Dark Types, etc.), but in the same sense it almost entirely shuts down every pokemon within a type (There are virtually 0 Water or Grass types that can touch this thing save for Azumarill), so again, it absolutely NEEDS a mon to compliment it and vice versa.
-Needs another bulky mon to compliment it (Which is why Mega Gyara + Decidueye is so good)
-Wants to provide as much "babysitting" (basically cover as much for a mon as possible resistance-wise while providing them a slow U-Turn or Baton Pass to safely get them in) as possible
-Absolutely loves fucking with Stall teams, so it's a good option if you're struggling with those a bit.
-Not the BEST mon against offense, since it has very obvious things on said playstyle that can beat it (Ice Types, Dark Types, etc.), but in the same sense it almost entirely shuts down every pokemon within a type (There are virtually 0 Water or Grass types that can touch this thing save for Azumarill), so again, it absolutely NEEDS a mon to compliment it and vice versa.
-Decidueye isn't strong for an Offensive mon, however, it's like Tangrowth in the sense that when you run nothing but bulk, you learn to appreciate its natural attack stats that let you nab the 2HKOs on mons you can counter.
-(I cannot stress this one enough) Please. PLEASE. PLEASE. Do NOT use Decidueye like your run of the mill trapper such as Magnezone and Dugtrio. You will be HIGHLY disappointed if you try and use Decidueye this way.
-However, at the end of the day, Spirit Shackle DOES still trap whatever you hit it with, so use this as a momentum grabbing tool rather than a trapping tool. It makes your plays much safer and more reliable in the long run. Also provides really good damage overall towards more frail mons that don't resist it.
-Don't underestimate your bulk. You can take EQs from a Scarf Lando T all day, as well as a myriad of special attacks (Some that are even super effective) from pokemon like Tapu Koko, Keldeo, Tapu Fini, Serperior, Starmie, Lando I not packing Knock Off, Xurkitree, and more. You can also take a hit from mons like Latis and Magearna, Roost the turn they hit you, and then bam you win the 1v1 due to them using either Draco or Fleur respectively and lowering their SpAtk.
-You have a LOT of utility in one mon with the ability to block hazard removal, remove hazards yourself, and gain momentum all at once. You can play amazing mindgames with Spirit Shackle, as they'll most likely bring something in immediately that doesn't care about being trapped, so then you U-Turn out, get chip damage, and go into your respective answer to the mon they went into. Decidueye HEAVILY rewards smart play and risks.
-(I cannot stress this one enough) Please. PLEASE. PLEASE. Do NOT use Decidueye like your run of the mill trapper such as Magnezone and Dugtrio. You will be HIGHLY disappointed if you try and use Decidueye this way.
-However, at the end of the day, Spirit Shackle DOES still trap whatever you hit it with, so use this as a momentum grabbing tool rather than a trapping tool. It makes your plays much safer and more reliable in the long run. Also provides really good damage overall towards more frail mons that don't resist it.
-Don't underestimate your bulk. You can take EQs from a Scarf Lando T all day, as well as a myriad of special attacks (Some that are even super effective) from pokemon like Tapu Koko, Keldeo, Tapu Fini, Serperior, Starmie, Lando I not packing Knock Off, Xurkitree, and more. You can also take a hit from mons like Latis and Magearna, Roost the turn they hit you, and then bam you win the 1v1 due to them using either Draco or Fleur respectively and lowering their SpAtk.
-You have a LOT of utility in one mon with the ability to block hazard removal, remove hazards yourself, and gain momentum all at once. You can play amazing mindgames with Spirit Shackle, as they'll most likely bring something in immediately that doesn't care about being trapped, so then you U-Turn out, get chip damage, and go into your respective answer to the mon they went into. Decidueye HEAVILY rewards smart play and risks.
Yeah, I just hate it when people automatically say "Its stats are so bad! Stats are the most important part!" when they really aren't. It was a bad comparison I know that, but the best mon in OU didn't have a single stat above 95.
Hey it's a better meme than Damn Daniel
I'm actually using Decidueye on my team as a check for most Bulky Waters and Grass types as well as his ability to wall most Electric pokemon. His high Sp.Def means that I don't have to freak out about non-STAB Ice Beams(which is something I've always hated about grass types as it's such a common move) and he can immediately threaten most water types with Leaf Blade. He checks Starmie(which I assume will be good in UU/OU??), he shuts down non-BB Tapu Koko and can mess with anyone trying to build a core around it or a rain team. Like, he fits quite a few rolls, but the big things for me are the ability to handle a lot of the Water, Grass and Electric type pokemon out right now. Random HP:Fire doesn't hurt and most non-STAB Ice Beams won't 2HKO if you EV a bit into his bulk.
He doesn't need to net an OHKO, he just needs to be able to take their attack and immediately threaten them or lure in a counter and take it out with Low Sweep or Shackle it and pivot out to something more suitable. I cannot find a better Grass type to handle all of that except for something like Mega-Venusaur which would take up my Mega slot. And even then I would also lose the pivot that he provides.
Frankly, Deci was just given so many more options compared to either Prima or Incin and can fit so well. I'd imagine he'll have a great spot in UU and will be used on OU teams that need him for various roles.
@ TheNegativeOne
I'm using a team with Decidueye, A-Ninetales and M-Gyara. Gyara and Deci work so well together taking care of each others weaknesses very well and A-Ninetales provides AV which just makes them take hits that much better.
He doesn't need to net an OHKO, he just needs to be able to take their attack and immediately threaten them or lure in a counter and take it out with Low Sweep or Shackle it and pivot out to something more suitable. I cannot find a better Grass type to handle all of that except for something like Mega-Venusaur which would take up my Mega slot. And even then I would also lose the pivot that he provides.
Frankly, Deci was just given so many more options compared to either Prima or Incin and can fit so well. I'd imagine he'll have a great spot in UU and will be used on OU teams that need him for various roles.
@ TheNegativeOne
I'm using a team with Decidueye, A-Ninetales and M-Gyara. Gyara and Deci work so well together taking care of each others weaknesses very well and A-Ninetales provides AV which just makes them take hits that much better.
I agree stats aren't everything but they're very important but yes defitnely not all...look at Talon mediocre stats but carried by a great ability and once that was nerfed look at it...I do think clef was a bad comparison though because it's got godlike abilities and movepool
Well... Had they not over-nerfed Gale Wings?? Talonflame has a horrible typing too which was only really workable because Gale Wings was just that powerful of an ability. SR wasn't as big of an issue thanks to priority roost for instance. And you could also build him more defensively thanks to WoW and priority roost.
Typing is a huge factor and Deci has an awesome typing.
How are decidueye's stats bad? They seem pretty decent for OU.
Once Incineroar gets Intimidate he'll get a major boost in utility. As for Primarina...yeah that seal is boned unless tutors come to the rescue.
It's that there is no area to focus into. Look at the spread, it's super weird. You have a Grass/Ghost with 107/100 attacking stats and the movepool to actually abuse both, but a horrible speed stat meaning you cannot really go for a mixed attacker(and why would you even want to) or a set-up sweeper of any kind. It's defenses are strong, especially his Sp.Def stat, but his actual Def stat is low so that he doesn't become overly bulky and get turned into a some weird kind of Tank.
The whole reason why he has such a high Sp.Atk is because I don't think there is anywhere else you could put those points without making him either too powerful OR causing him to get pidgeon-holed into just one role. If they put those Sp.Atk EVs into Def he becomes a typical bulky grass, anymore Sp.Def makes him a Special Tank and anymore speed would have had everyone going for full offensive sets.
I think the whole point of Deci is that he's a jack of all trades, but admittedly master of none. That isn't the best for OU as when you have a team of 6 pokemon you can afford to have 6 pokemon that each fit one role perfectly.
I dont think theyre bad, bad seems to harsh they really arent bad...overall for OU just seems...mediocre? 107 as its highest offensive stat with meh speed a pretty poor defense isnt great, but it does have a diverse movepool to make up for it. I genuinely believe Decidueye (and the other 2 starters for that matter) offer enough to be legitimate threats in the UU metagame however.
Im talking about it competitively...its lore is irrelevant to me Im not complaining merely stating.
I'd say the best way to go about things is maximize his use in one of those roles to its fullest extent.
He has a monopoly on being able to choose who he traps (and do damage), even if it's only temporary. Make use of that to the fullest extent as to what your team needs.
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